HELP! F150 died/lights still on

[clueless campers]

Not Sunline related but we do (or did) tow with this truck. Hubby's 2004 F150 died this morning. He was stopped at traffic light when the battery dummy light came on and the truck stalled out. I hurried to pick him up and get him to work (just hired last Tuesday and now he's 10 minutes late ). He managed to get it pushed into a parking lot and when I got there the headlights were still on almost 1/2 hr. after keys removed. He said the doors won't lock either. Has auto on headlights but the only way to get them to turn off was to disconnect the battery. I don't know if the radio stayed on or not.

First thought was bad alternator or loose battery cable -- but why are the headlights on?

Could it be in the ingnition switch?

Any help greatly appreciated. Don't know how long it can be left where it is. Hate to call a tow truck and have it taken to dealer if it's something stupid and can be fixed easily and cheaper.

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by clueless campers

First thought was bad alternator or loose battery cable -- but why are the headlights on?
Could it be in the ingnition switch?

After 20 years as an auto mechanic, I think i can help. No, it's not loose cables. I doubt that it is the switch, but it could be and replacing that isn't simple either.

So, here's my 2 cents: With all the electronics and relays and sensors and computers on modern vehicles, any electrical anomaly (such as dead truck with headlights burning) is a sign to have an expert diagnose the issue.
On-board diagnostics store fault codes that can be retrieved by a well equipped repair shop.

Save yourself a lot of irritation and tow it to either a dealer or a well equipped repair facility with ASE certified mechanics. You don't want some jack leg "taking a whack at it."

IMHO,
Teach

[clueless campers]

Teach,

Thanks for the reply. The parts store loans out the code readers. Do you think it would be worth it to have an idea of what's wrong before towing it to the dealer? Maybe we could get some idea of how hard it's going to hit the bank account. I know the tow won't be cheap since the truck is half an hour away. (Should have kept the AAA.) As if the truck weren't enough trouble, it took 3 restarts and an hour and a half to update the anti-virus on my computer this morning. AArrrrggg! I think I need to go camping. If it weren't for the below freezing temps and snow, I think I could relax just sitting in the Sunline at the storage lot!

[Sunline Fan]

I'd get a code reader to test it anyway. Even if you can't solve the problem, it will help give you an idea of what to look for or know if the dealer is thinking along the right track so they don't scam you.

For the cost of the tow, I'd try to get it started and attempt to drive it over there or at least closer.

Just curious, since the truck is so far away, I'm assuming it was warm then at the point when it died? I'm wondering if by chance it's because something warmed up and stopped working, and then you might have no trouble at all when you go to try to start it now cold. The problem may come up again once it gets warm, but drive it slowly and easy and hopefully you can get it closer to the dealer or auto parts store.

It may need something as easy as a reflash of the ECM, which the dealer could do.

Might not hurt to call the dealer and ask if there's any hidden recalls or TSBs (technical service bulletins) on this issue. If there is, it may not cost you anything for a reflash. Also, maybe there's a chance they could send someone out to the site if you can't get it there for cheaper than it would cost for a tow.

We had a problem where the Excursion died when it was almost new, only 2400 miles. I know this won't be your problem, but still in the same general area. The dealer forgot to remove the insulation piece that kept the battery from charging for transport to the dealer. Over those 2400 miles, it got hot and melted, causing it to not charge at all (it must have been doing some before). Got Ford Roadside assistance to come out, since we were towing I refused to have the Sunline towed. The guy gave me a jump and I was able to drive it, with no lights on and minimal electricity stuff, to the dealer in town. Fortunately for that, we traded cars with my grandparents and my dad took the Excursion home and charged the battery up, finding that it was now good to go without that plastic in there. Oh how I'll never forget the Ford dealer and Wendy's in St. Johns, MI...

[Sunline Fan]

Dona, another thing I thought about was that I believe by disconnecting the battery for more than like five minutes, that resets everything. That might help you get it started again if it won't, but hopefully you've left it disconnected instead of leaving the lights on.

[clueless campers]

It's sitting in a friend's (very good mechanic) garage. Took my son and his voltage tester with me to pick hubby up when he got off work and stopped back to try starting. Disconnecting the batttery this morning so lights wouldn't be on must have reset things. This afternoon it tried to start but not enough juice (there was nothing this morning, not even a click). Pulled battery and took it to my ex's to fully recharge and pick up a power pack. Went back, got truck started and I followed the guys. About halfway home, son called and said "just lost dash readings and voltage down to 8, will probably die in a minute or so". About 100 feet further and they pulled to side of road. They hooked up the power pack for a while and we went another 5 miles. Had to stop 3 more times to charge back up and go a mile or so. What should have been a half hour drive took an hour and 15 minutes! Got to friend's garage, pulled alternator and had it checked. No surprise when the red "Fail" light came on. $200 and the guys are now replacing it.

I've had my "bad things come in 3's" for today. Besides my computer being finicky, I forgot to mention that when I took my truck out of the garage this morning, the overhead door would move about a foot and stop. The only way to close it was to hold the button then it would go back up as soon as it closed.

Can you see why I want to get away?!

Thanks for the replies Teach and Jon.

[clueless campers]

Yeah!! F-150 is back on the road (running -- not sitting). Hubby says I jinxed it this morning when I handed him the receipt for this month's payment then poked him in the chest and said "Chevy" (he was wearing a Ford sweatshirt and we both have Fords).

Still don't understand why there apparently wasn't enough power to time out the headlights but enough to keep them lit.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Originally Posted by clueless campers

Yeah!! F-150 is back on the road (running -- not sitting). Hubby says I jinxed it this morning when I handed him the receipt for this month's payment then poked him in the chest and said "Chevy" (he was wearing a Ford sweatshirt and we both have Fords).

Still don't understand why there apparently wasn't enough power to time out the headlights but enough to keep them lit.

Maybe the computer sensed the battery voltage and shutdown the timer which is a accessory mode but the lights turned on is a direct control circuit bypassing the computer? Could be.

[MACK C-85]

Still don't understand why there apparently wasn't enough power to time out the headlights but enough to keep them lit.

The headlights are a mechanical system, i.e. wired battery to fuse, to mechanical relay controlled by the headlight switch, to the lights. The mechanical system is not sensitive to voltage drop, i.e. the lights will stay lit (increasing dim, but lit) until there is no voltage. The ignition system is electronic and to protect itself, will shut itself off if it is not supplied sufficient voltage.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by MACK C-85

The headlights are a mechanical system, i.e. wired battery to fuse, to mechanical relay controlled by the headlight switch, to the lights. The mechanical system is not sensitive to voltage drop, i.e. the lights will stay lit (increasing dim, but lit) until there is no voltage. The ignition system is electronic and to protect itself, will shut itself off if it is not supplied sufficient voltage.

Hi Mack

H'mm, do not know if this is still true on the modern day vehicles. On the older vehicles it is just as you stated. You never had lights until "you" turned then on or off.

Now a days headlights are fully automatic pending brand and options package. They turn on by themselves when the ignition is on followed by when a certain darkness outside is sensed and they flip from day time running lights to full head lights. And they turn off by themselves once the ignition is off and a time delay is reached. The off time delay is even user selectable on some models.

Since I drive newer GM’s and Ford’s I have not turned on or off a head light in the last 5 years at least... Last week I was in VA for work and Avis gave me a Kia… Full size car, good gas milage just not all the frills. It was dark out, the inside dash lights up by itself but the outside headlights and body lights where still the old fashion way, on the knob of the directional signals. When I parked the vehicle here I am ready to get out and the dumb lights are on. Operator error, you have to turn them off…. Boy was it hard to get back in the habit of turning them on and off…

In Dona’s case Charlie’s F150 may have the fully automatic lighting system. If the CPU goes out I do not even know if the lights will even work now a days in auto mode along with much else on the truck…. If they have auto on/off headlights what ever control circuit that runs the system was stuck on. It “may” have been a latching relay. The CPU sets the latch relay and it stays latched forever until the latch reset is fired. The manual override knob may either fire the latch reset or totally break power.

I do not 100% know the now a days the head light circuit. Have the shop manual down stairs in the basement and it might shed some “light” or not on the subject (ha ha Pun intended…) The shop manuals do not break down the actual circuitry all the time. More of a point to point wiring diagram.

So the lights on mystery may still exist. I’m thinking maybe it was a latching relay set on that the CPU no longer would reset. Any modern day car head light circuit Guru's out there?

John

[MACK C-85]

Since I drive newer GM’s and Ford’s I have not turned on or off a head light in the last 5 years at least

Humm...I guess that's why I like my Dodge....simple headlights.....and if were talking a new model...no Diesel Emmissions Fluid to add.....

Mack

Truth in advertising..I do own a Chevy Impala with automatic lights, but didn't think about that on a workhorse!!