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Old 03-18-2024, 08:50 AM   #1
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tire blowout damage

We had some extended damage due to a tire blow out yesterday and I'm looking for some info on the wiring adjacent to that area (under the countertop and behind drawers and oven/stovetop) so i can get the repair finished. The wires in question are circled in the pic. The white wire from the freshwater tank (ground) was found disconnected when i opened to access door. I don't know where it was attached to ground? Also, the red wire coming out of the resistor pack was disconnected. The wire loom the covers the two wires (brown and blueish grey) coming through the floor were also pulled apart. Lastly, the red and black wires from the water pump were pulled out of the wire nuts that connected them to power and ground. Any help i can get would be appreciated.
thanks, Jeff

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Old 03-18-2024, 10:19 AM   #2
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Hi Jeff,

Your pic is not showing. I can see there is no url address to the pic.

There are 3 ways to add pics.

1. Upload pics to a specific post, attaching them at the end of the post.

2. Link them in from a publicly viewable web photo hosting service you have.

See here for 1 and 2 https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...html#post86041

3. You can upload pics to the forum in your own personal photo album. Then link them to anywhere in the text of a post. See here on how to create an album. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...html#post87945

If you still get stuck, let us know.

Once we see what you have, yes we can help.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 03-18-2024, 12:40 PM   #3
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here's the pic

https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/m...albums914.html
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Old 03-18-2024, 12:57 PM   #4
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I've been out in the camper still trying to figure out how the pump gets power. From what i see the brown and blueish grey wires that come out of the floor appear to go to the other tank sensors. I must be missing something or there is more damage to the 12 volt power wire from the pump switch to the pump that I can see. There really is no way to get back in there to see.
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Old 03-19-2024, 10:55 PM   #5
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Hi Jeff,

This may help. If you can post more pics it helps use see more of what you are talking about.

In our FILES section, under "Sunline Electrical, Lighting & Charging Systems," there are four KIB Enterprises files. One at the top of the page and three down below. You can download them, and they have a wiring diagram for the red cube, which is the resistor pack. Here is a hot link direct to that subfolder. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/d...p?do=cat&id=14

I cannot tell if your resistor pack is damaged. If you need a new one, see here for one place that sells them. https://www.amazon.com/KIB-K101-Repl...007HRRBTM?th=1

I do not know what the KIB tank panel is in your camper, so take a pic and post. This file shows just the one red rocker switch for the pump, but it shows the tank sensor wire color call out, which is the same regardless of how many switches are on your tank panel. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/d...do=file&id=412


The White wire is the DC neg, ground wire. It should go to the lowest tank sensor pin in the tank. It does not go to the red resistor pack. From the lowest tank sensor, it goes to DC negative in the camper. There is not enough picture to show where the pump negative wire is as we cannot see the pump itself.

From the red resistor pack, the red wire coming out of the red cube is the signal wire that goes up to the tank panel with all the lights. I cannot tell you what color Sunline used for the signal wire, but I can tell you how to figure it out.

Go to the tank monitor. These pics are from my camper, which has two red rocker switches. Yours may be similar, but it should come apart in a similar way.

On the side of the panel is a tab; use a small straight-blade screwdriver and twist/pop the cover loose


When you get the light panel off, there is a circuit board plug on it


See the wire colors on the plug,


Your goal is to find what color wire Sunline used to run from the tank panel down to the fresh tank. If you undo the white flange ring on the wall, gently remove the wire nest, and you should find wire nuts showing the colors of the wire they used.


According to the KIB wiring diagram, the blue wire on the PC board connector is for the fresh tank. See what color wire Sunline used to run that KIB blue down to the fresh tank and look for it at the tank. That color wire will connect to the red wire on the resistor pack.

The KIB brown is for the black tank

The KIB grey, is for the grey tank.

Be careful; those little wires can unplug from the red PC board connector; they are just pushed in, and the connection pin cuts the wire insulation to make contact.


If you cannot back into the color of the fresh tank wire, go under the camper and find the black and grey tank colors and red resistor pack wire colors, then compare them to what is up at the tank panel. That eliminates two of the three colors.

If your water pump switch is on that KIB tank panel, see what color Sunline used to wire the pump switch; that wire color should show up at the pump.

If I can see the wires coming out of the water pump, I can figure out which is DC neg and which is DC hot. You can also try it from these words. DC hot at the pump goes into the square cube at the end of the water pump. The square cube is a pressure switch, and a red wire comes out of the motor and goes to the pressure switch. Then, a second red wire comes out of the pressure switch, which is the DC hot wire from the tank panel that runs the pump. Sunline picked its own color for the hot wire; it would wire nut onto the pump red wire pigtail.

A DC neg ground wire is coming out of the motor; I don't know what color it is on your motor.

Somewhere at the pump and tank sensor area is most likely a white wire that is the DC neg, ground wire for both the pump and the fresh tank. I cannot see this in your pictures. Sunline has used white stranded wire as DC negative in many cases. I don't know if white or DC neg dates back to your mode year, though.

I hope this helps; if you can't sort it out from this, post more pics, and we can see it better to help better.

John
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Old 03-20-2024, 07:06 PM   #6
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wire damage

John - thanks for all the info and your time, I really appreciate it. I believe I am missing some wires that were damaged when the wheel liner was broken as the tire shredded. The wire loom that I since removed was in 3 separate pieces. The micro monitor is almost directly above the pump. I will have to remove it and locate the correct wires for the pump power, resistor pack, black tank sensor, and grey tank sensor and try to run new wire to just above the wheel liner where I can cut a small access hole to fish the new wire. Do you know if the stud cavities in the wall are open like in a stick built home?
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Old 03-20-2024, 10:32 PM   #7
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Hi Jeff,

You are very welcome, glad to help as we can

On this pump pic of yours, the red wire on the square cube at the end, the pressure switch, is the hot power wire. The black wire coming out of the motor is the DC neg, ground wire.


Your resistor pack looks to be OK. The red wire is the signal to go up to the KIB unit. The white wire will go to DC neg/ground once you figure out where they had a ground wire for the pump


Yeh, you are going to have to back into where the grey and brown wires go to.





Yes, you have the KIB one toggle switch Mico meter. The wire on the pump switch and light panel will help sort this out


Let us know how you make out

John
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Old 03-20-2024, 11:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB2004 View Post
J Do you know if the stud cavities in the wall are open like in a stick built home?
The wall cavities are open; they are filled with fiberglass insulation.

This pic of a 2004 T1950 is going through restoration. It is coming apart in this pic, but it shows the wall cavities with the siding off. There was pink insulation is each wall cavity.


In your 1998 camper, the walls may be screwed to the side of the floor system. In 2004, shown above, the walls sat on top of the floor. I have not yet sorted out what model year they changed from the wall mounted to the floor bandboard side OR the wall sat on top of the floor.

If you are thinking of fishing a new wire down the wall cavity from the KIB tank panel, that may be possible. Down at the bottom of the wall, under the cabinet out of sight, you can cut the wallboard (1/8" luan) and get into the cavity. There may be 1 1/2" x 1" wide studs at the floor area of the wall, you might have to be about 2 to 3 inches above the floor with the access hole.

The goal is to go straight down in the KIB tank panel cavity and pop out close to the floor in the same cavity. The trick is to fish a stiff pull wire down the wall and pop out the access hole. Then, tie off the new wires and pull them up to the KIB tank panel. The insulation in the wall will make this complex with a stiff fish wire.

If the fish wire does not work, you could try this, as I have done this successfully before. You shove a piece of 1/4" or 3/8" OD polyethylene tubing down the wall as a fish tube, not a fish wire. The tube is stiff enough but does not dig in so badly into the insulation that it can hopefully pop out of the hole in the wall. Start tight to the inside of the wall and push as close to the wallboard as possible so the tube follows the wallboard down. If you can get the tubing from the access hole in the wall, you can shove the wires up the tube if they are thin enough Or use the tube as a pull wire to pull all the new wires up the wall. This is easier said than done, but it is worth a try.

There will be other wires in the wall, so watch out for them when cutting into the wall. The wallboard is only 1/8" thick. You can utility knife slit it not to go so deep.

John
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Old 03-25-2024, 07:13 PM   #9
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John
So far, I've figured out the wiring, successfully fished it through the wall and have everything connected and it works. I am looking to find out if the translucent 1/2" water line the was broken is compatible with standard blue pex commonly found in homes today. The fittings seem to fit as tight on the translucent pex as they do on the blue but i'd rather know for sure before closing everything up. I'm using the brass couplings with crimp rings.
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Old 03-26-2024, 09:40 AM   #10
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Hi Jeff,

Good news on getting the wiring sorted out.

Now to the water line. The white translucent lines. This topic can come up often so I will go into some detail on it. Please report back what you find so we know what Sunline used in 1998.



First, a little background: Sunline used polybutylene (PB) piping on the older campers. PB piping was gray and stamped with PB2110. PB pipe is a slightly different size than today's PEX tubing, and you would use adapters to go from old PB to modern PEX. From the PB trail, I can find that in 1996, they stopped using PB in houses due to leaking fittings, etc., as the years passed.

Your water pump tubing is white/translucent; Your 1998 camper should be past the era of PB piping. They did and still do make PEX in white/translucent color. It may be that Sunline used the white/translucent PEX in 1998. I'm not sure about that. By the early 2000s, Sunline used red for hot and blue for cold. I don't know what model year, but by 2003, they were blue and red.

Here is the short, hopefully, quick answer to the question about what pipe you have. Could you look on the side of the tubing and see if there is an ASTM F1807 rating stamp?

ASTM F1807 is the standard spec for metal insert fitting using a copper crimp ring for SDR 9 PEX tubing. If it has that stamp, then standard 1/2" PEX crimp rings and metal fitting will work with it.

See here on PEX pipe out of a 2004 Sunline. I circled it in red.


Here is the longer answer.

PEX also has evolved; there is PEX-A for expansion fittings, PEX-B for crimp fittings, and a PEX-C for crimp fitting, which is used for floor heating systems

Edit: 3/27/24 PEX-B is the pipe the campers could have used as it is more popular, but PEX-A was also used as the pipe I took above is PEXa as it will also accept crimp fittings and has the ability to be used with expansion fittings.

Please have a look here for more on the PEX types. I picked the Sharkbite brand because it is right off the website rather than an aftermarket seller.

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/reso...ross%2Dlinking.

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/reso...es-of-pex-pipe

Here is the size chart, which shows the OD and ID of 1/2" PEX. The colors white, blue, and red are the same. I picked blue for the link
https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/pex-...raight-lengths

Scrolling down to Resources and Downloads, you can download a size chart on the pipe.

1/2 PEX-B is 0.625" +/- 0.004 OD, 0.070" wall thickness, and 0.475" ID approximately as it will vary slightly with the OD and wall thickness.

If the pipe has no markings and you have a set of calipers, measure the ID of the tube where it has not been crimped. If you are in the 0.0475" ID range, with a 0.625" OD, then the 1/2" PEX copper clamp rings will work with it.

As FYI, here is more on PEX piping and codes. I use this website often and find the info to be reliable. https://www.engineersedge.com/fluid_...ions_15630.htm

Hope this helps

John
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Old 03-26-2024, 09:46 AM   #11
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Jeff,

By chance, when your tire blew out, did you have to replace the plastic wheel well? And if so, where did you buy the wheel well? This has come up before; to date, we do not have a source for that style wheel.

Thanks

John
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Old 03-26-2024, 10:13 AM   #12
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For those following along, here is a chart showing the differences between modern-day PEX piping and older gray polybutylene PB piping used in Sunlne campers. The fittings, crimp rings, and pipe differ regarding inside diameter and wall thickness; the OD is the same. You need to use adapters to convert between two different pipes.

See this PDF in our FILES section: https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/d...o=file&id=5648
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Old 03-27-2024, 06:33 PM   #13
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damage from blowout

John- again, thanks so much for your wealth of knowledge and experience about the repairs. The 1/2" water line has the following markings:

HOT / COLD POTABLE WATER TUBING - SDR9 9-100 PSI AT 180F
ASTN F877 01/22/1998 QEST PE (can't quite make out last letter, possibly an x)
1/2' CTS-5/8" OD-E

The markings are faded and difficult to read, but I believe that is what is on them. Being how it is tight behind the cabinet; I am wondering if the press on SharkBite fittings are an option. The tire cut a 1"-1 1/2" straight groove in the wheel well that ran from the front bottom to just above the middle top portion. I cleaned the area thoroughly and made up a patch slurry with small abs shavings and abs cement. I used fiberglass screen to cover the gap and applied several layers of the slurry. It is solid. I still have to do the same on the inside part. I have used the same method to repair my grey tank in two different places and have had no problems with the patches to date. I will have to look further at the files you put links to in your post.
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Old 03-27-2024, 10:34 PM   #14
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Hi Jeff,

Again, you are very welcome.

From these numbers,

Quote:
HOT / COLD POTABLE WATER TUBING - SDR9 9-100 PSI AT 180F
ASTN F877 01/22/1998 QEST PE (can't quite make out last letter, possibly an x)
1/2' CTS-5/8" OD-E
The SDR9 = PEX. (As FYI SDR-11 is Polybutylene PB)

The ASTM F877 = PEX is rated for hot and cold water distribution systems.

The Qest piping is a Zurn Industries brand.

What you have is PEX piping. The standard PEX copper crimp rings and fittings should work with them.

To your Sharkbite fitting comments, if you can get the Cooper rings on and crimp them correctly, they are close to bulletproof for an RV bouncing down the road.

Several others on the forum have used the Sharkbite fittings; I do not recall any posts with problems or ones they reported. I myself have not used them in a camper setting. I have used hundreds, maybe thousands, of that O-ring style fitting at work on all kinds of stationary machinery. I am leary of the O-ring seal fitting in a camper that bounces down the road. The last I looked, they were not house-rated for being buried in walls. I'm not saying you should not use them; there are other options if wanted.

If I cannot get the clamp rings in the location, I use the Flair-It PEX compression fittings. These: https://www.flairit.com/flair-it.php

They have them in all styles and sizes. Sunline uses them on the new campers in some locations. And to be fair, I have seen a cracked compression nut on the Flair-It brand during a Sunline restore, but only one so far, so they are not perfect. Again, back to the crimp ring: It is pretty darn good if you can get the crimp tool in there to crimp it.

Yes, I know of the solvent weld and fiberglass window screen mesh repair methods you used on the ABS fender repair. I have had good luck with that type of repair; I do three coats with an overnight cure between coats. You have to clean the plastic, but it works well and is low-cost.

I hope this helps.

John
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Old 04-02-2024, 06:50 PM   #15
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Hey John!

Just about all finished with the repairs, i was able to get the crimp tool in a better position by disconnecting the faucet side connection and making a good lock on the fitting. I leak tested all fittings with water pressure from the pump first, then put a hose to the city connection with a regulator in place and ran the water for a few minutes. Lastly i left the city water connection on for 5 hrs. and all dry! Now to look for a replacement tire for the one we lost. Thx again for the help, i knew i could find the help here.

Jeff
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Old 04-03-2024, 08:21 AM   #16
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Hi Jeff,

Great job!! Thanks for reporting back.

Yes, tire blowouts can create one heck of a mess. I've been there and had that happen.

I don't know how much you have researched trailer tire failures to back into what may have happened to the tire that failed.

Here is a top-level list, I'm glad to expand more if wanted; just ask. We also have a retired tire engineer on the site, Tireman9, who has a lot of background in this area.

In a tandem or triple-axle camper setup (two wheels on two axles, one behind the other), each tire can be sized close to full load capacity under normal travel. When one tire fails, the other tire immediately goes into a large overload. Depending on the age of the tires and how long it was before you changed out the spare, it has been shown a common occurrence is that the other tire on that side may fail soon after the first tire failure since it went into a heavy overload condition.

Tire age: Tires on a camper lose load capacity with age due to the rubber components breaking down over time. Five years is a standard recommendation for a change-out time frame regardless of tread life. The older the tires get, the less load they can carry, and when you are past the 5-year mark, the odds are not in our favor.

Tire pressure is a big one. Trailer tires must be at max cold side wall pressure at the start of every towing event. They need that maximum pressure to handle the heat and side loads from tandem and triple axle turns. Interply shear sets in (the tire tries to tear the tread off from turning), and the tire internally can start slowly ripping itself apart until it eventually fails. Tire age, low pressure, and insufficient reserve load capacity in ST trailer tires can cause this problem. The combination of all three at the same time accelerates the problem.

Consider getting a tire pressure monitor (TPM) if you do not have one on the camper. Even if you keep up on all the checks on tire pressure, etc., road hazards happen, you pick up a nail, the valve stem leaks, and so on. While the TPM will not stop a tire from failing, it helps tell you when the tire pressure is too low, and damage inside the tire is starting. Many tire failures are from minor but accumulative issues that, as time goes on, suddenly blow out the tire, leaving you wondering, what happened?

There is more to tires than the ones listed above, but those are a good start.

I hope this helps,

John
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