Let's do the math!

[awellis3]

I'm a member of a canoe club that has a permanent campground (think open field, no utilities, johnny houses in the woods). The entrance is off a two-lane, country road, across a covered drainage culvert, through a cattle gate. I get my pop up in just fine, but I've been wondering if I could get my Rockwood to make the turn.
So, here's the question: Using geometry and a few calculations, can that question be answered? If so, what measurements would be necessary? How would these measurements be plugged into the calculations to find a solution? (Remember, I taught English but did really well in Geometry. Algebra? Not so much.)
I'm thinking (theoretically) if I measure the turning radius of my unit, I could calculate the area required to make a 90 degree turn and the paths of the TT and trailer wheels. I'm just clueless as to whether this is true or possible.

What say you?
Teach

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Perhaps the two lane will have enuff right of way that you can swing'er wide? That might give you really two and a half lanes to turn in. If I did the math I'd still have to do real world tests.

[cuffer101]

Get over to the right as far as you can, pull past your turn until the camper wheels are almost to the turn, stop, back up turning the rear of the truck to the right, stop before the ditch or whatever may be there. Now turn hard to the road you want to go in. Used to work for me with a 70 foot tractor trailer. Chuck

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

Perhaps the two lane will have enuff right of way that you can swing'er wide? That might give you really two and a half lanes to turn in.

LOL! The road isn't two full lanes wide. Here in Va., they don't paint lines on roads whose lanes aren't a standard 8' wide. This one ain't got no lines.
As for a test run, that would involve a four-hour drive. I was hoping to do the measurements the next time I took the Pup up and take the guesswork out of it.

Keep'em coming,
Teach

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by cuffer101

Get over to the right as far as you can, pull past your turn until the camper wheels are almost to the turn, stop, back up turning the rear of the truck to the right, stop before the ditch or whatever may be there. Now turn hard to the road you want to go in. Used to work for me with a 70 foot tractor trailer. Chuck

I thought of that, too. It's the 12'(?) culvert and the cattle gate I need to negotiate. Think of an uphill, croquet double wicket.

Teach

[cuffer101]

Wow, must really tight turn. Well pull up with the camper just 90 degrees to the turn, drop the camper, get the truck in the entrance, hook it back up and drive in. LOL, I'm glad that's you and not me. Chuck

[bunjin]

Skip the math.

Go to a parking lot. Mark the tires locations with caulk. Use caulk, gypsum or lime on tires. Swing as tight a radius as you can and measure and plot the caulk paths.

Of course in short order this can be done in snow.

[Gene]

I am in the "skip the math" camp.

How about some plastic cones or even wood blocks to simulate the spacing and set it up going into your home driveway?

[bunjin]

Originally Posted by Gene

I am in the "skip the math" camp.

How about some plastic cones or even wood blocks to simulate the spacing and set it up going into your home driveway?

I agree with you Gene. In a pinch use people you don't esp. like also works!

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by Gene

I am in the "skip the math" camp.

How about some plastic cones or even wood blocks to simulate the spacing and set it up going into your home driveway?

I'll have to use bunjin's idea in combo with yours. I live in the inner city and my driveway is a motor court off a municipal alley. Ergo, the TT is in storage nearby.
Next time I'm at the camp, I'll take measurements and set up a "road course" in a nearby, abandoned shopping center. I don't want to show up with DW and the kittens and not be able to get in the front door. That would be all bad.

Thanks,
Teach

[Gene]

Originally Posted by bunjin

... In a pinch use people you don't esp. like also works!

LOL

[pwb01]

Originally Posted by bunjin

Skip the math.

Go to a parking lot. Mark the tires locations with caulk. Use caulk, gypsum or lime on tires. Swing as tight a radius as you can and measure and plot the caulk paths.

Of course in short order this can be done in snow.

That's the way! I actually have white circles in my driveway marked there when I pulled my camper out so I can put it back in the same way. Some modified version of that could work for you.

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by pwb01

That's the way! I actually have white circles in my driveway marked there when I pulled my camper out so I can put it back in the same way.

I wish a could do that for my pop up tucked next to the garage, but our alley is gravel and I'd have to paint lines in my neighbor's motor court (also gravel).

Teach

[pwb01]

Originally Posted by awellis3

I wish a could do that for my pop up tucked next to the garage, but our alley is gravel and I'd have to paint lines in my neighbor's motor court (also gravel).

Teach

Maybe you can "plant" some small pavers as markers and paint them. My wife simply followed a wheel out once and spray painted 4" white dots every 3 feet or so in the driveway forming an arc to follow as I back the 5th wheel back into the driveway. I can actually back in using the mirror and line up the tire to the dots and turn as needed to line up with the next dot.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

I start with my position in the street and my alignment with a tree beside the pavement. I know I must make two attempts to hit our little ten foot wide gate so the rest of the world can just wait until I am parked. I know that if I start while positioned a little to the right of centerline. I can watch the frightened look on my wife's face until I get close to the fence while turning sharply and she is jumping up and down and waving her arms. That is our signal to stop. Then I pull forward to straighten the rig in alignment with the gate. Then I can use mirrors to slowly back into our driveway and back for 200 feet to the parking spot.

This doesn't help with making a right-hand turn through a gate while pulling forward but helps me get into my yard and parking place.

[JohnB]

Hi Teach,

There are math type ways to do this. However it all starts with the exact data needed to do the math on...

Last year I was planning for building a new pole barn for the camper and I needed the driveway prefigured so I could "easily" turn the camper around in the yard and then back in straight into the barn. H'mm OK how am I going to do this?

Me being more a math and CAD drawing kind of guy, I prefigured the turning radius of the truck and camper, measured the truck and camper, made drawings of each and then drew it all out how they would work. Since I was going to live with this for the rest of my years... the time was worth it. For your situation, well this might be a bit much... However that is what you asked for...

That aside and short of a snow storm in VA... maybe try this and this was how I came up the truck & camper turning radius.

Do you have a straight drive way and on the side, a lawn large enough to hold the camper and truck at a 90 degree turn? Or even a grass field from a buddy? A dry parking lot might work but the little rubber left from the skidding tandems might not all show up. The camper will but the truck maybe not.

I drove down the driveway stopped and then backed up onto the lawn until the truck and camper were 90 degrees to the drive way. This is what I had to do at the new place so I was mocking up the turn. I turned to the limit where I knew there was not going to be any hitch binding. Then I got out and measured all 4 of the truck and camper tire paths and radius from the centerline of where the camper ended up.

Once I had that, I knew the skidding of what the trailer tandems did going around turn and the truck skidding and turning radius. Those field dimensions worked perfect when I took them into the CAD program and later to test drove them on the staked out drive way layout at the new place.

If you have a lawn to do this on, the soft impression and the grass laying down will be there long enough to measure it. You can do this for going forward or reverse.

Heads up, watch out for hitch binding, your bumper into the LP tanks or a truck rear tail light into the camper...

Good luck

John

[bunjin]

John,
I have been waiting for your post....knowing you would address the math issue.

What CAD system are you using? We ( at work) have SOLIDWORKS and Rhinoceros. We use Mastercam for CNC machines.

Unless one already has one of these programs it would be a bit of an expense to purchase as well as learn for this endeavor. Finding someone with CAD would help.

The math along would be one thing. Even then it would have to be put to the real world test. The real world test is probably the fastest way to get the answer.

Teach needs to collect measurements from the actual site also. Tracing paper and grid paper of this site and the driveway/lawn test site at same scale could be drawn. The trace could be used as a overlay.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by bunjin

John,
I have been waiting for your post....knowing you would address the math issue.

What CAD system are you using? We ( at work) have SOLIDWORKS and Rhinoceros. We use Mastercam for CNC machines.

Unless one already has one of these programs it would be a bit of an expense to purchase as well as learn for this endeavor. Finding someone with CAD would help.

The math along would be one thing. Even then it would have to be put to the real world test. The real world test is probably the fastest way to get the answer.

Teach needs to collect measurements from the actual site also. Tracing paper and grid paper of this site and the driveway/lawn test site at same scale could be drawn. The trace could be used as a overlay.

I grew up on the board... Yes I know I'm dating myself... I'm fluent in Auto CAD 2013 Mechanical and I have a seat of Soildworks 2013 Pro at work that I dabble with. Mainly to use when machine shops send me after I send them 2D.... They do all the CAD/CAM work. I'm getting there... All in time. We are somewhat behind the times on the 3D conversion as there are only a few of us in machine or package design. The rest are architectural/electrical and 2D fits the needs.

As far as cost, for free (legally) I have Draftsight at home. It is Solidworks gift to AutoDesk, give it away for free... They took the Bill Gates approach.Here is the what a F350 and a T310SR looks like turning around in my yard, I had to base the turning radius on the actual field turn on the front lawn.



While it can be free, learning CAD to be productive and accurate, takes time that I think Teach does not have....

The grass trick worked great. Also take the 100 foot tape measure with you... I thought about making to scale paper dolls... but you cannot reproduce the tandem wheel skidding. The fastest is just go play on the lawn or wait for 2" of snow....

[bunjin]

" The fastest is just go play on the lawn or wait for 2" of snow...."

Agreed! The math is fun to ponder though.

Oh. John, you may be able to answer this question. What if Teach were to add a front hitch. Would he have a tighter turn radius? I would think so. I plan on adding one to my Tundra double cab to be able to maneuver my trailer into my driveway.

I have a small driveway, a narrow gate and a stone wall to work around even though I have a small trailer.

[awellis3]

Originally Posted by bunjin

John,
I have been waiting for your post....knowing you would address the math issue.

Me, too. I was betting you had figured out a formula I could plug some values into and, Voila! Alas, no magic bullet.
Also, I had no idea about how tandem wheels and their suspensions flex in a tight turn until I stood by as my trailer was moved by the dealership's tractor into a service bay. Wow! Someone needs to give an owner a heads up on what he is about to see.
Yeah, you're right about CAD. While I have time, I don't think the payoff of acquiring and learning for a one-time project would be worth it.
Since I'm turning from a country road into a graveled, uphill-ish drive, through a cattle gate onto a one-lane dirt road, I'll have to make this in one move or not at all.
John, your situation is the location of the barn is the variable - your house and driveway are the constant. In my case, my rig is the variable - the roads and gate are the constant. (Same thing only different )
So, next time I'm up, I'll tote my K&E surveyor's tape and take some measurements then head to an abandoned mall parking lot with my stack of traffic cones.

This has been fun, thanks,
Teach