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07-22-2019, 02:28 PM
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#21
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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Ok, finally getting this water heater tore apart and there’s a problem — it has some after-market welding.
Any ideas? Can I eliminate this component? I am unsure if this is an electric heater add-on or something since everything else is accounted for and in the proper place (burner to heat, exhausts,
12v pump to move water, etc).
Pictures attached old and new tanks, front and back. Also looks like they used silicon around the sockets in the hot and cold water ports. Can I just use plumbers tape?
Also, the pex tubing had a lot of orange rust like reside... Clean it or replace it? Looks thick, not brittle.
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07-22-2019, 02:58 PM
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#22
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
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SUN #89
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In this pic,
On the left with the hex OD and the wire terminals on it, is the electric heating element. That is original. It unscrews out of there assuming it is not corroded in and it is not burnt through as someone left it on with no water in the heater.
I would use Teflon tape or good teflon based pipe dope on the threads of the water fittings. I would not use silicone.
If you want to eliminate it, you are going to have to find a pipe lug big enough to screw in there and I'm not sure it is even NPT thread. I forget if there is a gasket on the element threaded portion which makes getting a plug even harder, You may be able to buy a new element if you can't get the old one out cheaper than getting a straight running gasketed plug.
The control box for the electric element is laying below that area with the Romex cable out of it. There should also be 2 sensors that attach to the side of the tank that are part of the control circuit for the electric element. They are probably stuffed in that little junction box
Pex tubing and rust looking stuff, this is going to be a judgment call on your end unless you can capture it in pics on to replace. It is common that high iron water can leave a rust residue in water piping. Especially if they used well water and that was not run through a softener. The whole camper may be that way.
I have a well and it has high iron in the water, our softener strips it all out of the house water, but on the non soft outside faucets it spits a little rust every time you open the faucet for a second or two.
As long as the rust stains you have are "normal" left overs from high iron water, bleach sanitizing per the procedure will take out anything that will cause a microorganism issue. The orange stain may be there for ever.
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-22-2019, 03:10 PM
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#23
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
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SUN #89
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This new tank looks like it was for a gas fired only water heater and it may have never had an electric element.
You can tell that new tank is different then your old one. There are different model tanks. The new tank has an extra threaded fitting on the outside of it where a gas valve temp probe would screw in. Your old one never had that or needed it as the temp sensors are outside the tank
And the back of the heater does not look like it has the tapped hole for the electric element.
While you can abandon the electric element portion and just not use it, just seal off that 120 VAC romex cable correctly so it is not a live wire hanging there. But I "think" you might have an issue with the T stat and the ECO sensor on the outside of the tank. Your new tank being an all gas heater tank does not seem to have the pockets to accept the T stat and the ECO sensor that your old one has.
That is going to be an issue. While you may be able to plug the gas valve sensor, I'm not sure how you get around the lack of the T stat and ECO holders to hold the sensors against the tank.
You could get the right tank and then use all of your old controls, OR do away with the old system all together, buy a new gas valve and sensor to go into the new tank you have now. This means you have a new all gas water heater that you go outside and lite it manually. It works and they work well, just not automatic like the one you had
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-22-2019, 03:16 PM
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#24
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,876
SUN #89
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Your new tank looks like it fits this kind of water heater
https://www.amazon.com/Atwood-Mobile...gateway&sr=8-3
As you can see, the gas valve and the gas tube and burner are very different then what you have as your old heater
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-22-2019, 03:26 PM
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#25
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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John-
Yeah, the new tank does not have a port on the back for the electric element, etc. sheesh. And now I’m aware there will be a plumbing issue on the front.
Any idea what’s the correct old tank model? I ran the parts several times and unfortunately still got this one wrong. Guess it happens to everyone once in awhile. I think I’d like to keep the system as is, will see if I can return the new tank.
I’ll replace a few pex fittings and add some
Shark bite replacements. We’ll see if a bleach cleaning gives the tubes a healthy taste after a rinse once this is done.
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07-23-2019, 07:53 AM
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#26
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SUN #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaajot
Any idea what’s the correct old tank model? I ran the parts several times and unfortunately still got this one wrong. Guess it happens to everyone once in awhile. I think I’d like to keep the system as is, will see if I can return the new tank.
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See if this helps. First is to start with the full model number. From your pic and post here, http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...tml#post148531 You have an Atwood GC6AA-9E
Then you go to the good book, in this case see here. (thought I linked this to you on the furnace) Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Atwood 2007 Service and Training Manual
Then zoom to PDF page 51 which is page 40 on the bottom of the manual and you will see a chart with a bunch of Tank Service Kits part numbers and the associated water heater model numbers.
For a GC6AA-9E I decode it that you would be looking for a Atwood 91593 Service Tank Kit. In your case the kit comes with the tank, the insulation, the electric element, the controls box on the back for the element and a safety relief valve. I do not know how buy a tank short of the full kit if you are not wanting to rebuy the extra parts.
Before you order it, I would call and talk to the place, give them your model number and make sure they decode it comes back at the 91953.
There are lots of places on line that sell that part number, and most of them seem to be using the same pic. I wanted to see the back of the unit to make sure it had the older electric element, the conduit box and the sensors in it. The hit that I found with a pic of front and back was this one. I'm not saying to buy it here, I do not know them at all, just the pic looks right. https://www.rvadenver.com/MAJOR-APPL...-p/42-0323.htm
If you get stuck not being able to return the new tank, you will have to think through your options. Last night it dawned on me, the T stat and the ECO switch is held by the actual large sheet metal cover and not by brackets on the tank. That is, unless the tank weld seam lands in the wrong place and is on top of a sensor. So the sensor mount may not be an issue. Check that the weld seam on yours is the same as the new one.
However the extra port on the outside you need to deal with and make sure the fitting will not run into the gas valve. And deal with boring a hole in the metal cover to allow it to stick out. That extra port which was intended for the all gas thermostat probe may be your issue. Also check the large burner heat exchanger tube that hole centers of the new tank matches your old tank. If they are different, this get real complex and then the gas burner may not even line up right.
Hope this helps
John
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-23-2019, 08:21 AM
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#27
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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Hey John-
Yeah, I heavily used the internet to confirm my parts once I had the model correct, but in this case the exact model wasn’t evident from just the tag on the outside. Should have gone through my owners manual and probably been able to cross reference as you did.
Anyway, I’ve removed it. The new tank is out of its return period on amazon by a few weeks since this Summer has been extremely busy. I got the hot tub running finally after a year of refurbishing it, $14k hot tub for $950 is a decent trade, even with about 100 hours into it. That includes installing new 50A disconnect and the 60’ of 6g THWN/THHN wiring and piping. Also 7 puppies for sale, headed out the door in 2 weeks. Very busy. Pups are Livestock guardian breeds, parents protect the chickens at the farm with the camper.
I digress. Researched adding that port to the back and apparently it’s quite possible — I’m not the first person to make this mistake in this specific water heater boondoggle. Infact, the previous owner appears to have made the mistake on my Sunline and got the new unit installed before they realized there was no electric heater port on the back. Instead of doing the responsible thing and pulling it out to do the mod it appears they cut the hole in place and then tig welded in the new threaded socket to fit the electric heating element. I’ve tons of metal shrapnel I vacuumed up as I cleaned out the area and steam treated the carpet because you know, it’s already this much apart so yep, time to go full monty on the no brainer stuff. And the weld looks very after market and is going to make it a challenge to actually remove the electric heating element without damaging it. I may have to buy a new one of those if you have the part number handy? Same book you linked? Did I mention the previous owner did the welding job inside a carpeted camper? *_*
I also did a thorough look over on the front to see if here was anything not matching as you mentioned but the sensors are held by the face shield, no issues there! I couldn’t find any inlet or exhaust that isn’t meant to be there. The drain plug and pressure relief valve and gas inlets are all in the proper locations. I think if I can modify the back with a good tig weld that I’ll have converted the gas tank to the correct style and saved the majority of the investment!
Last question though, and comments welcome about the above musings too. There was of course some water damage under the tank, but not much. I’ve sprayed the particle board with bleach already once. It is soft only on the first 1-2 mm of wood. It has a lot of strength. I believe it will be ok to leave in place until I get crazy and replace the carpet with laminate or a hard wood floor and gut:customize the bathroom in a future season. Take a look at updates photos regarding all things in this update post.
Uploaded pictures of the parts I inspected. Specifically large burner tube and the two sensors you were concerned about mounting in the front. They were under the tank’s rupture point and have significant rust. I think I should replace. Should I, and again a good part number for each item, in the same manual?
Thanks! We’ll see if metal man can tig weld a proper connection into the tank for me today or tomorrow.
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07-23-2019, 08:33 AM
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#28
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
However the extra port on the outside you need to deal with and make sure the fitting will not run into the gas valve. And deal with boring a hole in the metal cover to allow it to stick out. That extra port which was intended for the all gas thermostat probe may be your issue. Also check the large burner heat exchanger tube that hole centers of the new tank matches your old tank. If they are different, this get real complex and then the gas burner may not even line up right.
Hope this helps
John
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Shoot, I finally see it — you’re right. I had blinders on. I see the port you’re mentioning right where the burner line sets in the front.
Question- How about the tig welder just patched that so it’s low profiled and sealed with a piece of steel or a cap? Heck if it’s just heat running by I can probably grind it down and JB weld that part in myself since it won’t be holding any significant pressure.
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07-23-2019, 09:34 AM
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#29
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
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SUN #89
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Some things to think through as part of your fix it plan.
The T stat and ECO sensor part numbers are in the same book I linked.
This pic, this is factory added. The electric element weld is way too perfect to be done in place inside a camper. The studs look like a spot weld. You can tell the way the stud gun works it leaves that appearance.
Rather then cutting in a new electric element, consider just not installing it and seal off the end of the romex cable. That creates zero issues for the tank. Only run the heater on LP gas when you need to use it. Turn it on 20 minutes before you need hot water, doing dishes after a meal, taking a shower etc all can be managed. Even then, I would not leave an RV water heater on 24/7 when you only use it approx 2 hours of run time a day.
The hole in the front where the all gas thermostat goes. That one may be your kill shot. Since this is a pressure vessel and I have seen them get up above 100psi normally just heating water and thermal expansion, any patch has to be perfect. I myself would not recommend any type a JB weld or home welder attempt welding it. If you have tank buddy, certified in that grade and thickness of aluminum and does ASME tank repair for a living, that would be my only recourse for a tank weld. Technically, they would give you the correct paperwork the tank was repaired to code.
How bad is the interference? 1/16" or 1/2"?
The bad flooring, you can dry it out and put rot treating resin on top to stop any further degradation. Then place a piece of filler plywood as needed over the area.
Hope this helps
John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-30-2019, 03:44 PM
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#30
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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Slow Going
John & All-
So, anhosefittings.com sells a 16AN threaded aluminum bung specifically for tig welding. It cost just under $6, is on its way. A new same-fit electric water heater element to replace my old one was just under $7 at Lowe’s, utilitech brand name. The front opening is the biggest problem — will hope to find a low profile cap and plumber putty, unsure how my clearance will be and how it will interfere with the gas burner line and the cover.
If the above paragraph is any indication, I’m out of my return timeline by a few weeks on the similar but wrong tank.
The only thing I can think of is replacing the burner as you said, but I’d like to somehow rig it to be turned on from inside instead of manually lighting it. That seems like a lot of work though — porcelain ignition button, easy to run that wire to a trigger inside but a button to open/close the pilot vent with assurance it is indeed closed when off seems like a lot of engineering for the effort.
The best option I can think of is to fit everything once in place and see if a creative angle and flex pipe has enough clearance anywhere to get from A to B with the gas burner without compromising the other components or safety of the gas line and burner run.
Going to find replacement sensors next and maybe anew burner setup. I found some wood rot treatment on amazon for just under $9 for 16oz, should treat that wood just fine and any other location where I’ve noticed some soft wood (exterior screw locations). Entire camper still gutted, but no more bugs biting me —bed bug tests came back negative too, so it’s fairly safe to sleep in on my air mattress while I await parts. ^_^
I’ll start a new thread for the Frankenstein fix starting with the add-a-bung by Metal Man via tig weld and update the water heaters buildout there and let this thread go back to pressure testing once it’s back in service. I’m also rebuilding some water lines, will show that too — replacing with new pex to get rid of the stains and add life to the system. Also color coding to show hot cold and filll lines.
-KJ
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07-30-2019, 03:52 PM
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#31
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
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SUN #10989
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John-
Also, forgot to mention I believe your opinion about the weld on the back of the tank being factory, but I cannot for the life of me explain all the welding flux (material beads at any rate, I’m not a welder) I’m vacuuming up in that specific compartment! The guy I bought the camper from was a seasoned tradesmen, although I also got the feeling he would cut corners if he had the skill and ability. Is there a chance he knew how to tig weld and did that in-place? Or knew someone and convinced them to do it in the camper?
Either way, crazy to do so. Maybe they laid down plastic painter 1-2 mil and the beads cooled and rolled off afterwards.
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07-30-2019, 10:56 PM
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#32
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Moderator
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Location: Ohio
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SUN #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaajot
John-
Also, forgot to mention I believe your opinion about the weld on the back of the tank being factory, but I cannot for the life of me explain all the welding flux (material beads at any rate, I’m not a welder) I’m vacuuming up in that specific compartment! The guy I bought the camper from was a seasoned tradesmen, although I also got the feeling he would cut corners if he had the skill and ability. Is there a chance he knew how to tig weld and did that in-place? Or knew someone and convinced them to do it in the camper?
Either way, crazy to do so. Maybe they laid down plastic painter 1-2 mil and the beads cooled and rolled off afterwards.
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I'll try and help explain this a little more,
What you are seeing is not adding up to the weld in this pic that holds this electric element in. I have seen masters at welding do things that are amazing, it is a true skill and art and I have great respect for those individuals. But welding a 360 degree weld with a near perfect bead all the way around from a top down position and then to an uphill position all by hand in limited space inside a camper, and not miss a beat in the bead pattern, I'm not sure that craftsmen exists.
If you can, take a picture of the beads and flux you are talking about. That may be able to shed some light on this mystery.
In this pic, there are what looks like small chips of aluminum laying on the floor.
If that is what you are thinking is weld splatter, take a close up pic. of the chips. Remember welding melts the metal, anything that sparks off the surface is molten metal hot enough to burn fibers in the carpet. Do you see burnt carpet?
If those chips are what I think it is, those are actual aluminum chips laying on top of the carpet left over from Sunline when they built the camper. The campers are loaded with them. They use self tapping screws on the windows that cut chips and they router cut out all the openings in the siding. Including the water heater hole, furnace etc. in the siding. Little slivers and chips fly all over from the router and are sort of everywhere. Up in the attic, when they trim off the siding to match the top of the wall, there are chips all over inside the attic.
Hope this helps
John
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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07-31-2019, 01:37 PM
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#33
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: New York
Posts: 60
SUN #10989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
If those chips are what I think it is, those are actual aluminum chips laying on top of the carpet left over from Sunline when they built the camper. The campers are loaded with them. They use self tapping screws on the windows that cut chips and they router cut out all the openings in the siding. Including the water heater hole, furnace etc. in the siding. Little slivers and chips fly all over from the router and are sort of everywhere. Up in the attic, when they trim off the siding to match the top of the wall, there are chips all over inside the attic.
Hope this helps
John
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No burned carpet and I didn’t know that was the fabrication process! Yes, I’m with you on this now. It’s left over debris from self tappers.
So I listed the tank on eBay in hopes of selling it for $100 and buying the right one for $200 instead of the metal man welding option. Even if he does the tig weld for say $60, I still have the front port closure and clearance to deal with, and it could be another $60+ fabrication and weld to make work the more I look at it.
Incidentally, I disconnected a relay on the front to the 12v and of course the camper is without power. Is it safe to pig tail up and terminate the 120, or would you recommend just living for two more weeks without it? That’s probably the timeline to get this straightened out and back together one way or another.
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08-01-2019, 09:19 AM
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#34
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
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SUN #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaajot
Incidentally, I disconnected a relay on the front to the 12v and of course the camper is without power. Is it safe to pig tail up and terminate the 120, or would you recommend just living for two more weeks without it? That’s probably the timeline to get this straightened out and back together one way or another.
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Your choice to sell the wrong new tank and get the right one, is a good choice.
I'm not sure by your words what you did or are asking.
Quote:
I disconnected a relay on the front to the 12v
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Sunline normally never had a "relay" in the 12 volt system on the camper to shut off the power. (a relay meaning a magnetic coil that engages contacts) They did use fuses and self resetting circuit breakers to protect the battery and wiring. BUT some really old power converters did have a relay as part of the power converter to connect the battery to charge or to power the camper lights. But that is part of the power converter and not upfront of the camper. But I would think that really old vintage is before your camper. If you unhook the negative cable from the battery, the battery is then out of the question and unhooked.
And you were talking about
Quote:
Is it safe to pig tail up and terminate the 120,
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Again not knowing what area you are talking about. If you mean the 120 VAC romex cable that feeds the electric element on the water heater hanging on the floor of the water heater area, you can wire nut seal off the ends of that cable or use electrical tape. And or go to the power converter area and look for the 15 amp circuit breaker for the water heater and shut the breaker off.
Hope this helps
John
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC
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08-01-2019, 09:26 PM
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#35
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Member
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SUN #10989
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Hi John-
All the wiring in question is at the water heater. Since I de-installed it there is no power in the camper,
so I believe there is a relay/junction in the 12v wiring that literally disconnected all the lighting and anything else 12v, although I should go check my fuses and make sure reinstalling didn’t blow one of those.
-KJ
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08-02-2019, 09:17 AM
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#36
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,876
SUN #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaajot
Hi John-
All the wiring in question is at the water heater. Since I de-installed it there is no power in the camper,
so I believe there is a relay/junction in the 12v wiring that literally disconnected all the lighting and anything else 12v, although I should go check my fuses and make sure reinstalling didn’t blow one of those.
-KJ
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Ah OK. This is a different issue altogether. Your water heater has a small bundle of 12 VDC wires that connects to the "outside" part of the water heater to run the gas valve and electronic ignition. Those wires were originally spliced by Sunline into the system by using wire nuts hanging off to the side of the heater.
This is not your exact model, but it shows the wire bundle I'm referring to. Look and see what yours has.
Wire hookup on Flickr
Wire hookup 2 on Flickr
If those wires get crossed, it can blow the fuse on that circuit. Tape or wire nut off those wires so they cannot touch each other.
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
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