1990 T1700 Solaris Water Leak

[sallyforth]

Hello all, I'm so grateful for this group, you've all helped me out so much in the past. Here's hoping we can solve one more mystery as I've sold my old gal and as we hooked up the city water there is now water pouring out from below. I've been on a video Chat with the new owner and the water did work in the summer, she was winterized. I will be going out in the AM to see it in person. The hot water heater is an Atwood and it is only 4 yrs old. Sadly, I know there are no diagrams for plumbing, we've worked out that the leak is between the pump and HWH. They said when they turned on the water some came out and then it started to leak and they turned it off. When they removed paneling for some reason the holding tank was half full and when the pump was turned on with no city water, it leaked. Any thoughts, diagrams, solutions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much as always!

[JohnB]

Hi Sally,

I will try to help, but need some clarifications to help better. In your post:

Originally Posted by sallyforth

Here's hoping we can solve one more mystery as I've sold my old gal and as we hooked up the city water there is now water pouring out from below.

OK, this is understood; you are on city water, and water is pouring out from below. Is the below meaning water coming out of a pipe under the camper, or coming out the seams under the camper, or is this inside under in the cabinets?

If the water is coming out of a pipe under the camper, that could be a low point drain valve that was left open from last year during winterizing or a drain valve that will no longer seal up. If the water comes out under the camper in the seams or inside the camper down in the bottom of a cabinet, that is a different problem.

Originally Posted by sallyforth

I've been on a video Chat with the new owner and the water did work in the summer, she was winterized.

.

I'm not sure of the context of when the water worked in the summer, when you sold it, and who winterized it? Please explain who was using the camper when the water worked in the summer, you or the new owner? Also, who winterized it, you or the new owner?

Originally Posted by sallyforth

I will be going out in the AM to see it in person. The hot water heater is an Atwood and it is only 4 yrs old. Sadly, I know there are no diagrams for plumbing, we've worked out that the leak is between the pump and HWH.

OK, now this is more good info, you tracked down some leak that is showing up between the water heater and the water pump. Is the camper being pressured with city water or the onboard pump system when this leak is occurring? Does water still pour out the bottom of the camper?

Originally Posted by sallyforth

They said when they turned on the water some came out and then it started to leak and they turned it off.

When they removed paneling for some reason the holding tank was half full and when the pump was turned on with no city water, it leaked. Any thoughts, diagrams, solutions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much as always!

In the blue statement, they turned on the water. Was this city water they turned on or pump water, and where did the water come out in the camper?

To the magenta sentence, the fresh tank was half full; please confirm whether the new owner added or did not add any water to the fresh tank when all this trouble started. Also, confirm that the fresh tank was drained from last season.

If no water was added to the fresh tank during the start-up of the season and the fresh tank was drained empty at the end of last season, then there is a possibility that when on city water, the check valve inside the water pump failed to seal off and allowed water to go backward through the pump and into the fresh tank. This check valve in the pump failing has happened before, and the check valve is not a separate part outside the pump you can replace; it is inside the pump. Either a pump rebuild kit or a new pump is needed.

If you need a new pump, your old 1990 one may not be available anymore. The link below is a new one, and this seller is packaging it with a pump suction inlet strainer ( an extra item) that I suggest be added to keep dirt out of the pump. You can buy the strainer separately also https://www.amazon.com/Shurflo-Volt-...PQB/ref=sr_1_7.
That same pump is sold by many places; even the local RV dealer can have one. I have no affiliation with the seller on Amazon; they were just hit on the pump I was looking for.

Now to the red part of the sentence. It appears that when the pump was turned on, there was water in the fresh tank, no city water turned on, and that water leaked somewhere.

Where did the water leak too? Please explain where they saw it.

Here are a few questions that may explain a leak inside the camper between the pump and the HWH. Does this camper have a winterizing kit at the suction side of the water pump? The winterizing kit allows RV antifreeze to be pumped through the system. Stick the hose in the jug, switch the water suction valve to draw from the hose, then turn on the pump, and it sucks antifreeze from the jug.

Assuming it might have the winterizing kit, here is the question. Whoever last winterized the system, did they check that the water pump suction selection valve that is part of the winterizing kit is "completely" turned back to only the fresh tank? Or did someone check it at startup when all these issues started?

If that pump water source suction selector valve is part-way open to draw from the antifreeze hose, and part-way open to draw from the fresh tank, combined with the water pump check valve leaking backward through, then when the city water is turned on, the water will flow backward through the pump, part of the water goes in the fresh tank the other part comes out the antifreeze hose and all over inside the camper. Is this part of what happened?

If the camper has the water pump winterizing kit, they need to check that the water pump winterizing valve is fully turned only to draw water from the fresh tank. And get the pump fixed so as not to leak backward.

I hope all this helps. Let us know how you make out.

John

[sallyforth]

Thank you so much! You've kind of pointed us in the direction I was thinking.
The camper was drained before the winter but no antifreeze was in it. It worked perfectly fine last summer and it slipped my mind to antifreeze it. I'm the previous owner and I sold it to my friend. I'm out at the trailer now. Unfortunately he's new to all of this and let the trailer freeze over night so whatever water got in yesterday is now frozen and we've cranked up the heat and I brought a heater over to try to remedy the situation.
They hooked it up to well water 40psi and when they did it started to leak under the trailer where the hole is from the wiring and the drain for the white water tank is.
I've never put water in there as I've always used city water with a regulator and have had zero issues for the 4 years I've owned it.
The white water tank filled up and there is water leaking we think somewhere near that area?
When the city water is off, the water doesn't come out of the taps and also leaks.
I was thinking that about the pump as well, could that still be the issue you think after this updated information? Thanks for that link!

[JohnB]

Hi Sally, First off, you are very welcome. We are glad to help as we can

OK, this added info helps add more to the puzzle. I'll comment.

Originally Posted by sallyforth

Thank you so much! You've kind of pointed us in the direction I was thinking.
The camper was drained before the winter but no antifreeze was in it. It worked perfectly fine last summer and it slipped my mind to antifreeze it. I'm the previous owner and I sold it to my friend.

OK, thank you. It's good to know and understand. Unfortunately, it was not antifreeze pumped, and things happen; we are all human. Now to how to help get it going again.

Originally Posted by sallyforth

I'm out at the trailer now. Unfortunately he's new to all of this and let the trailer freeze over night so whatever water got in yesterday is now frozen and we've cranked up the heat and I brought a heater over to try to remedy the situation.

OK, understand, yes, there is a learning curve, and it takes time to learn all this. We will help to support as much we can.

Originally Posted by sallyforth

They hooked it up to well water 40psi and when they did it started to leak under the trailer where the hole is from the wiring and the drain for the white water tank is.

The 40psi well water is OK. I have not seen the exact floor plan you have, but I do know how Sunline piped the camper, which is very common in the RV world.

Is the white freshwater tank drain leaking from the drain hose/valve or out of the bottom of the camper where the hose and wires poke through the bottom of the camper floor? Since there is water in the fresh tank, the drain valve may be cracked and not shut off if the drain hose leaks.

While you may have never used the fresh tank, only city water, the pump check valve leak may have been from last summer and accumulated the water in the tank, then cracking the drain valve.

If the water is coming out of the bottom of the camper where the hose comes out of the floor area and not out the hose itself, then the leak may be above the floor inside and flowing down the outside to the hose as it is a hole in the floor above and comes out under the camper.

Originally Posted by sallyforth

I've never put water in there as I've always used city water with a regulator and have had zero issues for the 4 years I've owned it.

The white water tank filled up and there is water leaking we think somewhere near that area?

When the city water is off, the water doesn't come out of the taps and also leaks.

I was thinking that about the pump as well, could that still be the issue you think after this updated information? Thanks for that link!

On this camper is the fresh water tank inside or outside under the camper? Sunline did both methods, pending the floor plan. I'm just trying to sort out where the tank is to give better answers.

First off, if there is water inside the tank and it's full or close to it, I'm assuming most of the water came from when the city water was hooked up at the start of this event. While there may have been some left over from last summer, the assumption is it is filled up now with this event. Can you confirm this or saw the tank was lower in water and now is full?

The result can be the same: the only way water can get into fill the fresh water tank is, if someone filled it with a freshwater hose by the fill spout on the side of the camper OR the check valve in the pump had failed and water is coming into the tank backward through the water pump when hooked up to city water.

The odds are high that your pump has this check valve problem. If you only drained the camper last year, the pump and pipes at the pump still had water inside it, and the freeze can damage the pump's internals. First, the pump must be addressed to stop water from going backward. There may be other leaks in the system you have not yet found. The toilet flush valve is one of them. Once the water pump stops leaking, then you can sort out what else may have a leak.

Next up is the fresh water tank and the piping from the tank to the suction side of the pump. Water in those hoses/pipes will not drain out, pending the piping routing. If there is a water trap (the pipe goes uphill, then down, and then back up with water), water can not drain back down into the tank, and the water in the hose can freeze or crack a fitting. Since the pump leaks backward, any cracked fitting between the tank and the pump will get water in that piping leak when the city water is turned on.

I'm unsure what access you have to see the water pump and the fresh tank piping. Take pics if you can. Look for leaks in the pipes between the tank and the pump.

Once things thaw out and you stop all the troubleshooting, drain the freshwater tank. Drain the water heater, open all the low-point drains, and open all the faucets to let air in to help get the water out. If water goes down the sink, shower, or toilet drains, drain the black and grey tanks. Then, pour 8 to 10 oz cups of RV antifreeze into the drain traps.

The gravity drains still leave a lot of water in the pipes, the pump, and the toilet water valve. If this system has the pump antifreeze winterize kit, you should use it to winterize the entire fresh system now so as not to have more damage. Close up all the drain valves, and do the antifreeze water pumping through the entire system, purging every faucet and the toilet valve and stopping any more damage until you can get parts. If the water heater has a bypass system, bypass it when you pump the antifreeze and turn it back to normal when done. Leave all faucets open when you are done to allow any expansion a place to go.

Someone will address the water pump and any leaking piping at the freshwater tank. If you have never done this anti-freeze pumping, we can help.

Ideally, in this case, you can access someone with an air compressor and a regulated 40 to 50psi-"only" compressed air system you can hook to the city water connection and the pump suction piping to blow through the pump. You will blow out all the antifreeze, pressurize the system with air, and start looking for leaks. They can unhook the pump suction pipes and hear/feel if the air blows backward through the pump. It is easier to clean up an air leak than a water leak.

I hope this helps, and good luck. Let us know how you make out.

John

[sallyforth]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Hi Sally, First off, you are very welcome. We are glad to help as we can

OK, this added info helps add more to the puzzle. I'll comment.



OK, thank you. It's good to know and understand. Unfortunately, it was not antifreeze pumped, and things happen; we are all human. Now to how to help get it going again.



OK, understand, yes, there is a learning curve, and it takes time to learn all this. We will help to support as much we can.



The 40psi well water is OK. I have not seen the exact floor plan you have, but I do know how Sunline piped the camper, which is very common in the RV world.

Is the white freshwater tank drain leaking from the drain hose/valve or out of the bottom of the camper where the hose and wires poke through the bottom of the camper floor? Since there is water in the fresh tank, the drain valve may be cracked and not shut off if the drain hose leaks.

While you may have never used the fresh tank, only city water, the pump check valve leak may have been from last summer and accumulated the water in the tank, then cracking the drain valve.

If the water is coming out of the bottom of the camper where the hose comes out of the floor area and not out the hose itself, then the leak may be above the floor inside and flowing down the outside to the hose as it is a hole in the floor above and comes out under the camper.



On this camper is the fresh water tank inside or outside under the camper? Sunline did both methods, pending the floor plan. I'm just trying to sort out where the tank is to give better answers.

First off, if there is water inside the tank and it's full or close to it, I'm assuming most of the water came from when the city water was hooked up at the start of this event. While there may have been some left over from last summer, the assumption is it is filled up now with this event. Can you confirm this or saw the tank was lower in water and now is full?

The result can be the same: the only way water can get into fill the fresh water tank is, if someone filled it with a freshwater hose by the fill spout on the side of the camper OR the check valve in the pump had failed and water is coming into the tank backward through the water pump when hooked up to city water.

The odds are high that your pump has this check valve problem. If you only drained the camper last year, the pump and pipes at the pump still had water inside it, and the freeze can damage the pump's internals. First, the pump must be addressed to stop water from going backward. There may be other leaks in the system you have not yet found. The toilet flush valve is one of them. Once the water pump stops leaking, then you can sort out what else may have a leak.

Next up is the fresh water tank and the piping from the tank to the suction side of the pump. Water in those hoses/pipes will not drain out, pending the piping routing. If there is a water trap (the pipe goes uphill, then down, and then back up with water), water can not drain back down into the tank, and the water in the hose can freeze or crack a fitting. Since the pump leaks backward, any cracked fitting between the tank and the pump will get water in that piping leak when the city water is turned on.

I'm unsure what access you have to see the water pump and the fresh tank piping. Take pics if you can. Look for leaks in the pipes between the tank and the pump.

Once things thaw out and you stop all the troubleshooting, drain the freshwater tank. Drain the water heater, open all the low-point drains, and open all the faucets to let air in to help get the water out. If water goes down the sink, shower, or toilet drains, drain the black and grey tanks. Then, pour 8 to 10 oz cups of RV antifreeze into the drain traps.

The gravity drains still leave a lot of water in the pipes, the pump, and the toilet water valve. If this system has the pump antifreeze winterize kit, you should use it to winterize the entire fresh system now so as not to have more damage. Close up all the drain valves, and do the antifreeze water pumping through the entire system, purging every faucet and the toilet valve and stopping any more damage until you can get parts. If the water heater has a bypass system, bypass it when you pump the antifreeze and turn it back to normal when done. Leave all faucets open when you are done to allow any expansion a place to go.

Someone will address the water pump and any leaking piping at the freshwater tank. If you have never done this anti-freeze pumping, we can help.

Ideally, in this case, you can access someone with an air compressor and a regulated 40 to 50psi-"only" compressed air system you can hook to the city water connection and the pump suction piping to blow through the pump. You will blow out all the antifreeze, pressurize the system with air, and start looking for leaks. They can unhook the pump suction pipes and hear/feel if the air blows backward through the pump. It is easier to clean up an air leak than a water leak.

I hope this helps, and good luck. Let us know how you make out.

John

Thank you again!
I apologize for my responses being discombobulated, my phone won't let me do quotes. When I bought it I had to learn the hard way many times over too lol, I'm just glad I'm only 40 min away to help this time.
So, the toilet has been totally disconnected and shut off for years, so that's not an issue. At least. We ate trying to bypass the pump right now to see if it is the pump. Is that something we can do?
The tank is inside and the water was leaking inside the camper and draining down through that hole where the wiring harness runs through. We think that's where the water was coming from, it feels dry around the pump.
I'm attempting to attach the photos of the tank and pump.

[JohnB]

Hi Sally,

Wow, the pump looks to be buried somewhat from that one picture.

You asked if you could bypass the water pump. The answer is yes. Now, how to do that.

You are not really bypassing it, and you are plugging off the pump's discharge piping so water will not go backward through the pump. This will isolate the fresh water tank, the piping from the tank to the pump suction, and the pump from the rest of the camper piping.

How to do this:

Find the pipe/hose that is the pump discharge pipe. This pipe/hose will come from the main piping system and screw onto the discharge port of the pump.

You unscrew the swivel fitting (hopefully, there is one) at the pump discharge port and then screw on a fitting that will cap off/plug the hose/pipe you took off.

See this picture of a 2004 T1950 freshwater system. You can see the fresh tank, the pump, and then at the downstream end of the pump is a white fitting with a white hose that tee's into the blue cold water line and screws onto the pump discharge port. You unscrew that white fitting, and the white discharge hose will come off.


Then, you go to the hardware/lumber yard and take a picture of the fitting with you of your camper. Tell them you need to cap off/plug off a 1/2" PEX swivel fitting that will screw into the swivel fitting at the end of your hose/pipe. They may need to create this cap/plug from a few fittings if they do not have a 1/2" PEX plug to do this all in one shot.

Hope this helps

John

[sallyforth]

Thank you again for your help! After bypassing the pump the cold water ran fine, but the water was leaking from a crack under the Atwood 6gallon water heater. So that's a big bummer.

[JohnB]

You are very welcome.

There may be a few things on the water heater area leak.

Not so bad. Check the piping fittings going in and out of the back of the tank; they sometimes leak or crack if frozen, and water can weep and run down under the heater. This is a more straightforward fix.

Yes, it's a bummer. If the heater had water in it above the outside drain plug and froze, that could create a tank crack. If the heater was drained to the point that all the water came out while the drain plug was out, and then froze, that usually does not crack the tank. Corrosion has also drilled small point holes in the bottom of the tank, which generally takes many years or very aggressive water. Since your heater has been replaced and is not that old, corrosion may not be the issue.

If it comes to be, they do sell tank kits as a replacement part, which is cheaper than an entirely new heater since yours is only 4 years old. The kit includes a new tank, a new safety relief valve, and the parts to install the tank, as you will have to change the tank holding rings when you change it. The last tank kit I bought was around $325, I think in late 2021. New heaters then were all over the map with Covid, some selling at $900, which is insane as the entire heater pre-COVID was $365 - $500 pending where you bought it.

If you go the tank kit route, check back with us and let us know the model number of the heater. They make many different tanks pending what options your has on it. It is not hard to buy the wrong one if you are not aware.

I hope this helps, and good luck. Let us know how you make out.

John