Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

[JohnB]

Clarkldc

Larry,

Thanks for posting back and glad your Sunny is once again whole. Yes for sure what you have now in your A frame is not going to break under normal and some abnormal TT use. At least in the A frame section. And you have a F250 to hold it up.

Curious, did Lippert state what header and A frame setup they where quoting? Since your was a reconstruction they could of selected a number of different combinations.

John

[clarkldc]

John,

I just reviewed the message from Chuck Bell at Lippert and the quoted price for the repair was $1225 not $1200 as I stated in my posting. When it comes to the specifications for the materials to be used for the repair, this was discussed over the phone. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe he said that the header would be 11 ga. with additional reinforcement behind it (maybe the 1"x2" box channel). The ball coupler and all the materials would be new except for the tongue jack. I told him that I wanted the 4" C-channel replaced with 5" C-channel, but he said that they might use 2"x5"x10ga. rectangular box channel. He also did not mention anything about the new cross-member I wanted in the WD attachment region of the tongue. He did sound quite amenable to replacing the whole A-frame and we probably should not malign him for the errors that the Sinline designers made with this frame design. I simply did not want to transport the TT in its prior condition to Denver. However, he did say that his mobile welding team could make a temporary patch on my site to enable me to safely tow the TT to their shop for the A-frame replacement. I just wanted to put this repair issue behind me and never have to worry if their fix would be as durable as that which I had planned using the heavier materials. I just hope my judgement does not fail me.

[clarkldc]

Here are some photos of my frame repair/replacement.


























As you can probably see, I need to do a better paint job on the new A-frame assembly. The welding shop did not think I needed any more reinforcement where the A-frame legs penetrate the header since the header is 1/4" thick, the 5" C-channel is welded all around, and there is an additional 1"x2" rectangular box channel welded 4" behind the header.

[JohnB]

Larry

Thanks for posting back and on the Lippert thoughts of the fix. The interesting part is in your case of total replacement they where suggesting 2 x 5 x 10 gage structural tubing in place of the 4” channel. The 4” channel can carrying a good size load when pushing down on the channel in the A Frame. However channel in the smaller sizes does not resist torsion (twisting) well. 5” channel is significantly higher torsion resistance then 4” channel. The Lippert 2 x 5 x 10 ga. tube by the shape will have more resistance to twisting. Again the fixes we have seen here address the twisting problem.

I’m not saying channel is a poor choice, as there are a lot of channel iron frames out there. However the larger sizes, 5”, 6”, 8” have a lot higher torsion resistance for very similar twisting loads. The 2003 - 2004 T2499’s and other 7,000# GVWR frames using 5” channel had more resistance to twisting.

Now to your repair, your 3/4 ton truck can take that repair in stride. That 8” wide 1 /4” thick Z shaped header is a healthy beam all by itself and then coupled with 5” channel.

Then the extra belts and suspenders, the 5” channel brace by the WD brackets, the 1/4, 2 x 2 angle battery supports, coupled with the qty 2 full width 1 x 2 rectangular tubes from frame rail to frame rail. WOW…. It is safe to say your A Frame which was the worst we have seen is no longer a weak link in your trailer. You have safety factor plus and then some. Your fab shop did a nice job putting it together.

I look forward to seeing your fix and others at the M & G in June

Thanks

John

[chopperbob]

I think this subject has been covered in detail. There are smarter guys
than me on this site that have come up with the causes and also the
fix. The cause is the stresses from the hitch in the area where it attaches
to the A frame. I also have a Lippert frame on my Fleetwood and I had the same problem. It doesent take a lot to fix it. One example is on Pat and Cindys Sunline that has been modified to fit 4 batteries on the front.
In doing so it may have contribited to the rigigity that it needed. Also
thier rear section has a Motorcyle rack that probably added to the strength of the rear. I say dont waste your time at Lippert and take it to
a welder and have him add a crossmember on the A frame and be done with it. It is simple and doesent cost much. Cost me a $100 bill but I know the welder and he is a friend and neighbor. Mine has three crossmembers plus a frame to frame bar welded behind the front header, hell, I didnt even bother to straighten mine! Its over kill, but I left it at his shop and when I came back to pick it up everything was done. When shopping for a TT, you can over research or do like I did which was to walk in and buy,
If I had researched it as much as some did, I never would have bought mine. But Im glad I did becouse of all the good times my family has camping all over this country. By the way, my local rv shop told me when I had my refer recal done the other day that Fleetwood has kept him in business for years.
Bob

[Hematite]

Larry:

They did a professional repair, as you would expect. Did they or you check the tongue weight on the Sunline after they were through? That's a LOT of steel!

[clarkldc]

Rick:

I have not measured the tongue weight at this point. The coach is winterized and on the storeage lot. When I take it out of the lot in the spring I will certainly get the weights done. I also need to put some more paint on the new A-frame and header. The welder painted it, but I think it needs another coat of paint. I also need to check the rest of the frame for any cracks and touchup any rust spots in the spring. We are planning a trip to the Florida Keys in May so we should see how the repair holds up on the trip. This should be a good shakedown cruise.

Larry

[Hematite]

Larry,

If I were you, I wouldn't give it a second thought. You will never have to concern yourself with the header again!

One thing you may notice is that the Sunline tows better. I noticed that after the bent header was straightened and reinforced. I took a trip to Maine with it and it was rock solid and steady. With the bent header it was not as steady on the road, probably flex from the A frame. You will be completely pleased now that the problem is fixed.

[t-2499]

Originally Posted by henryj

I hope all 2499 owners will post their frame solutions as it will be valuable for anyone with new problems to see our long discussion as well as the repairs that were then undertaken. It's likely future readers will have a wide choice of solutions as mine is different from others already posted. I'm not going to flog any particular fix as I personally believe the 2499 is so close to the edge just about anything might be good enough to pull it back. However, in my case blood is thicker than water and I followed the fix recommended by my brother as I posted earlier.

This new 4" channel cross member is welded into the existing A-frame channel approx. 1" in front of the front battery support. The top and bottom flanges are cut at 65 deg. and then cut off completely to kind of dovetail the new channel into the existing A-frame. The new channel cross member is welded on all sides.


A 1X2 tube was also welded right across the front of the trailer from I-beam to I-beam and welded to the A-frame. This piece is about 3" behind the header. They did a particularly nice job here sawing the tube on an angle and capping the ends.


Anyone intending to duplicate my solution needs to be careful of where their wd brackets are attached. Equal-i-zer recommends that the brackets be 32" from the center of the coupler, but 29-32" is acceptable. I was able to get a reasonable 1" gap between the battery support and the new channel cross member by moving the wd brackets to 31 1/2", still well within the recommended window. I also replaced the unnecessarily long top bolt with a 3 1/2" grade 5 because the bolt rather than the bracket was hitting the new channel. An alternative option was to let the new channel cross member replace the front battery bracket--since my battery is sitting on a plywood shelf already this would work. But the mechanic said he had plenty of room for welding and so just as soon left the support in place. Another alternative would be to relocate the battery to the top of the A-frame as Emam has done.

Only others with bent 2499s know what a relief it is to get this job done. I was really lucky to find an excellent shop, Reist Industries in Elmira, ON, that is actually a pretty substantial manufacturing/fabrication facility. After being turned down by a couple of smaller businesses I was pleasantly surprised that they took on such a small job. All cuts were sawed and ground, not torched, and the tube ends were capped, all without asking. I was billed for 1.8 hr. and $45 of steel for a total cost, including taxes, of $193. Remember my header only had at most a 3/8" bow and I just left that there for posterity so there was no additional cost for straightening anything.

Hopefully these days of crazy showers will end and I'll be able to paint the tongue before reassembling everything. Our next trip is to OR at the end of the month.

Henry

Funny to dredge this up from so long ago but, after reading this thread, I had this fix done to my 2005 t-2499. I didn't have any bending or disfiguration of the tounge or header at all. I've towed mine alot of miles, and only a guess would be close. I bought mine brand new, from Kings Mountain RV in Kings Mountain N.C.

I don't know what my tounge weight is, or any of the other parameters are. I will say, my coach is probably very light due to my not leaving much in the unit, and never towing with water in the fresh water holding tank.

I think I did the "fix" because of the if factor, and the whole what can it hurt thinking.

I will say I remember towing one time near Clemson S.C. down a steep hill. At the bottom of the hill I had to turn left. As I turned I noticed the coach rear scrub wheels were hitting and I proceded slowly. Well, the coach wheels were off the ground, and the weight was on the scrub wheels and the trailer tounge. As I turned, the coach slid around to the right (the scrub wheels are caster type)untill the tires touched again. I heard the tires screach like a jet airplane touching down on a runway. I was lucky to do no damage, nor bend the header or a-frame. I don't know why it didn't.

My a-frame is 4 inch and looks like everyones pictures here. Lucky I guess.


So, I just thought I'd post this, and say thanks for all the information. Maybe I saved myself some aggeravation.

[JohnB]

Hi T2499

Yes in this case, prevention is key. If you can reinforce the A Frame before the bending starts, this is a whole lot easier to fix.

John

[t-2499]

That was my reasoning also. I hope to keep this coach for a long time to come.

[FiveORacing]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Hi T2499

Yes in this case, prevention is key. If you can reinforce the A Frame before the bending starts, this is a whole lot easier to fix.

and two years later.........


I'm picking up my T-2499 this Saturday. It has only been towed a total of 100 miles to date (yes, 100 miles in 8 years). I inspected it today and it looks factory straight, no twisting at all. The only thing that looks funky is two shallow impressions on the bottom side of the header where the A-Frame passes through it. Looks like warping from welding? So, I have read most of this thread and I see more than one procedure done to address the problem?

Since everyone here obviously has more experience with this issue than I do, is there a consensus on what I should do with mine when I get it home?


1. I see a 1 X 2 (?) square tube welded across the bottom of the A frame just aft of the header. (and in one case on the bottom of the header)

2. I see a 2 x 6 X 1/4 (?) piece of flat stock soldiered vertically alongside the 4 inch A-frame on the back side of the header.

3. Should I do both, and what else perhaps?

4. Should I tow it home (Pa Turnpike about 60 miles) without the bars just to avoid introducing flex?

Thanks!!!!

Joe

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by FiveORacing

The only thing that looks funky is two shallow impressions on the bottom side of the header where the A-Frame passes through it. Looks like warping from welding?

I've seen this before. Not sure if good/bad/indifferent, but I have seen it.

Originally Posted by FiveORacing

4. Should I tow it home (Pa Turnpike about 60 miles) without the bars just to avoid introducing flex?

Your safety is of utmost priority. What type of vehicle will you be towing it with?

If it's a heavy duty enough truck, then you probably could get away with no bars. Is it set up for any sort of hitch now? Personally, if I were going to tow it on the PA turnpike, I'd want some sway control on there. But, you're in a pickle. If it has nothing now, you don't want to drill just to install a sway because there are far better hitches out there that don't use that, so you don't want the extra holes. How you tow it home depends on what hitch you ultimately want to have.

The big problem here is that a WD bar, when torqued in a turning situation, puts excess stress on the frame. Add in uneven ground and that's the recipe for accelerated disaster. As long as you aren't making tight turns (backing in driveways, pulling in gas stations, etc.), you are fine- the force on the tongue will stay pretty much equal on each side. If your particular hitch is one that has built in sway control, then maybe you could just put the bars on before you go through the toll booth and then take them off once you get off, this way you have sway control for all the trucks.

[FiveORacing]

I have a 15 year old Draw-Tite WD set up with the clamps that rest on top of the a-frame and have a pinch-bolt to hold them on. 1000 pound round bars.

Easy enough to tow it through the woods and throw the bars on at the toll booth. It's at a permanent campsite so all the tanks are empty.

2500HD Duramax Shortbed Crew

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by FiveORacing

I have a 15 year old Draw-Tite WD set up with the clamps that rest on top of the a-frame and have a pinch-bolt to hold them on. 1000 pound round bars.

Easy enough to tow it through the woods and throw the bars on at the toll booth. It's at a permanent campsite so all the tanks are empty.

2500HD Duramax Shortbed Crew

No problems at all there with that truck. That will be a nice towing combo.

However, your hitch does not have sway control built in. So unless you see a need to add the bars for leveling, you will probably be fine with the empty trailer.

You will probably find that you'll eventually need 1200# bars for a 2499 due to the heavy tongue weight, which will mean you have to go to trunnion style.

[henryj]

The A-frame flexes because the wd bars hang on the wd brackets on the outside of the A-frame. IMHO, and my brother who happens to be an engineer, the best fix addresses the problem at the source, not further down the line. Welding a cross member in front of the battery brackets is a simple "out in the open job" for any good welder and even looks factory original. Another effective fix in this thread is replacing the battery brackets with the next size up angle iron. Either one of these fixes will stop the A-frame flex. In hindsight, I'm not convinced the extra tube underneath would be necessary because the A-frame just isn't going anywhere after a heavy piece is welded in between.

My fix has stood up over the intervening years and the 2499 is now closing in on 50,000 miles as I write this in N. Battleford, SK.


Henry

[JohnB]

I'm out of time on this one, however I agree with Henry and his brother. The 4" channel is twisting under the WD forces. I myself would reinforce this area.

I would also add a piece across the main frame rails behind the header. The flexing A frame is causing the header buckle because the header is so weak the way it is made and the twisting A frame rail is the problem. You do not have to go solid 1", it won't hurt but it is not buying you much welding 1" x 2" solid bar to 1/8 thick I shape flange beam. Structrual tube with caped end is OK. Even angle, at least 1/4" by a good sized leg. The tie bar under the header keeps the 4" channel where it meets the header from twisting and thus not buckling the header.

The header depression on the bottom by the A frame rail is they way it warps from welding or they hit it on purpose. Even my big monster one is like that, but I have 6" channel and it is not flexing and the header has a large flange on the bottom of it for strength.

In this case, I'm a belts and suspender kind of guy and short of changing the 4" channel to 5", I would address both locations.

EMANS rig had a very custom heavy battery rack over the top of the A frame made from what looked like 1/4" 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" angle. Odds are high that stiffened up the top of the A frame from twisting. He put the A frame to the test in his travels including a bike rake on the A frame. The A frame can be made to be good.

Best of luck to you. With your truck, a 2500HD, Only use light WD and do not do any hard turns with the WD bars on or lost of uneven ground between camper and truck with the WD bars on. Go slow. The heavy tongue weight of the T2499 will tow very stable all by itself. Take it slow. 55 is enough. Your empty TW is going to be around 800# and the 2500HD will tow better/smoother with a little WD engaged. Just do not go full WD to bring the front back to unhitched in this case until the A frame is addressed.

OK and remember, we wanna see pic's of the new rig!

John

[FiveORacing]

Thanks guys. I think I'm gonna go ahead and do both the crossmember in front of the battery (gauge?), and the brace behind the header. I will probably go ahead and use heavier angle on the battery angle too.

I'm also building a rear cargo carrier (thanks John for the plans), which I hope will take some of the TW down.

I'll post some pics.

Oh. I can't drive..........55!

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by FiveORacing

Oh. I can't drive..........55!

Neither can I on the highway. I generally push it to the limits- 65. Trailer tires are all speed rated for up to 65, so going over that is asking for trouble.

[t-2499]

I check in here every so often, mostly lurking. But this time I happened to check this thread and low and behold, there was action! haha
Anyways, I thought I'd post about my header solution. I'm happy to report my header is still bend free, and the solution has worked great. Glad I did it. And by the way, I can't drive 55 either!

Oh, I did change tow vehicles. I cleaned up an older 1994 GMC 3500 ton truck to do the towing duties. All is well in my.....camp! lol