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Old 11-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #201
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http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/ph...?t=179&start=0
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:51 PM   #202
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Picture Post

Trying my first picture post.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:58 PM   #203
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Re: Picture Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhyne
Trying my first picture post.
Robert

OK now you know how to post, juut make the size 640 x 480 pixels. Or a little smaller. Try not to go bigger as it makes the screen scroll. On files size, 50 meg is pleanty big enough to give good resolution at the 640 x 480 size.

The size you posted is 96 x 128 which shows up mall

Even in your little pic I can see some of the bow. Glad you caught it now.

John
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:51 PM   #204
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Another Photo Try

John,
I'll try to change the size like you suggested for the photos.

Same Picture slightly larger.

Battery Support Bars - can't really tell, but they've spread to the point where I had to use duct tape to keep the batteries from falling through.

Can see small crack forming.

Crack from other side.

Last photo - bow from other side.
I have an appointment with the Lippert factory in Denver, PA on Friday, November 14th. I've been told I can wait while the repairs are done. Once the work is finished I'll post new photos. I'm glad I caught the damage early, I have a trip planned to WV in April for some ATV riding so we will see how the work holds up on the trip.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:01 PM   #205
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WOW Robert,

Did you sneak down to my house and take pictures of my Sunline before I had it fixed. You appear to have about a 3 inch bow in your header and the same crack in the header just like I had. Mine has been fixed and reinforced so that I hope to NEVER have a problem again. I am 3 hours from the Denver Lippert Frame Co, so I had a local construction trailer builder do my repair, as I was afraid to tow Sunny that far for the repairs. Tweety had Lippert Frames of Denver do the repair/fix to their 2753 as a precautionary measure, even though it appears that the 2499 is the model most affected by heavy/huge tongue weights. Please post pics of your fix when completed.

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Old 11-07-2008, 08:10 PM   #206
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Robert

Yes now we can see the pics well. Thanks for posting. The pattern continues. The good thing is you found it now. The frame is very fixable and your camper will then be all sound once again.

We will wait to see how yours comes out as yours is in the heavly bent stage going into repair

Thanks

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Old 11-13-2008, 12:48 PM   #207
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another bent crossmember

Hi fellow TT owners! I have been reading this thread with great interest. It started out I was looking for info on frames regarding carrying a M/C
on the rear like Pat and Cindy. After reading all of these problems I looked at my crossmember and lo and behold mine is bent too. I have a 25ft Fleetwood with a Lippert frame. I also have a crack right above the rear spring hanger on the right side. I painted the frame a few years ago and the crack showed up as a 2 inch rust colored strip! Boy am I glad I painted it - made it easier to spot for sure. I dont have pics of the crack but I will try and post pic of the crossmember.
oops, I cant figure out how to post pics!
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:33 PM   #208
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Hello Bob,

Good to see another owner finding out about this frame issue. I'm heading down to Denver, PA to have the repairs done tomorrow. I'll be curious to see what the repairs will be like. I'll be posting pics of the repairs before I put the trailer back into storage. A member named John sent me the directions to post pics - I'm looking for those directions and I'll try to post them if I can.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:36 PM   #209
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Just got back from Denver, PA and the Lippert trailer factory after having my 2499's frame repaired. Too late to take any pictues today hope to get some tomorrow to post. I was very impressed with the treatment I received today and by the looks of the repair I shouldn't have anymore issues. They straightened out the header, replaced the angle iron that worked as the battery holder with a beefer set, welded the crack that was forming, welded a support piece behind the header, painted everything and looked over the trailer for any other damage I may have missed. I dropped it off at 7:30 AM and was pulling out of the factory gates around 11:30AM.
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Old 11-16-2008, 08:01 PM   #210
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frame repairs

I got my frame fixed today. Three heavy duty crossmembers added and the crack in the Ibeam welded. I think its overkill but I'm happy. I will watch the area that was cracked and keep camping. I sure am glad this
forum is here becouse I would not have known my frame was bent.

I have two long trips in the near future and will give a good test.
One to Big Bend NP and the other Austin to Santa Barbara and back if
there is anything left there after the fire.
Bob
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:14 AM   #211
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Frame repairs

Well, its Monday morning and I got all the welding done yesterday. Three new crossmembers on the front and the crack welded. When I got home I had to paint everything and I got to wondering about the crack. Since its in the aft section of the frame, all the extra work on the front wont help at all. And I havent given up hope of carrying the bike on the back of the trailer. I need to talk to a engeener about welding a extra member all along the bottom of the main frame, something like a two by one tubing or a small C channel under the rear of the 6" I beam main frame. Since my axels are flipped I think I have enough clearance so why shouldnt I do this? Weight? I dont think so. Also, since I got the 4 new Monroe RV shocks added to both axels I think that will help the flexing at the rear, but I noticed that it still flexes but maby not as much. Cant tell for sure. Also I cant really tell that all that help on the front did any good as far as towing is concerned.
Oh well, I'll keep working on this and maby I will stumble upon a solution. Got a trip to Big Bend NP on Thanksgiving so maby that will turn up something.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:45 PM   #212
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ChopperBob

Glad you caught this in time and yes, this forum has helped many. And many did not know they had the issue until the read and then went and looked.

What year and model did you have?

John
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:38 AM   #213
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Frame stuff

I have a 2004 Fleetwood Prowler 250FQ built in early 2003 with a Lippert frame. I realize it is a cheap trailer but the wife really likes it and I resign myself to keeping it and doing whatever necessary to keep it on the road. I dont mind spending money on it becouse the last two calims we had (Hail damage and a fire caused by work on reinforcing the steps) I fixed it myself (fire) and it now has some light hail damage but who cares becouse Foremost paid it off with the claim checks (2). So now it is paid for and we got about 3500 back from the pay off. I know that was pure luck but it was all above board so I can feel good about adding other stuff like the shocks and extra welding etc. Its begining to look like hauling the 250lb M/C on the back isnt going to work becouse of the cheapness of the frame. I can still bring it with me in the back of the truck, but that requires unhooking the trailer to get at it. Not bad if we stop for a while but hard if I wanted to use it for a quick buzz around a local area like
Pat and Cindy can. By the way the bike only weighs about 250 lbs is a Husquvarna TE510. A full on dirt bike that is street legal.
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PS. the welding last Sunday cost me a $100 bill. I was lucky, the guy that did it is a friend and neighbor.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:19 PM   #214
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So after reading through the entire thread on the frames, I'm almost wondering if I shouldnt put some reinforcement welds or extra pieces of metal on the front section of my A-Frame.

Talking back and forth with Bob, we were wondering if maybe because of my frame being reinforced on the back end, and the extra supports on the front to hold my 4 batteries, if this somehow kept our frame from bending?

I'm tempted to just have a few pieces of stock metal welded in place to keep this from happening like it did to so many others.

Thinking maybe a bit of money in prevention will save a lot in fixing this on down the road? Any thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:17 PM   #215
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Pat, Imho, its a toss up. Most of the posters on this thread think that all the miles you piled up on your trailer without issue is pretty good proof of its durabilty.
I will be checking the areas around the welds on the crossbeam right above the spring perches for cracks. The crack I had had been there for a while becouse it was well rusted.
Go Figure.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:30 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emam

Talking back and forth with Bob, we were wondering if maybe because of my frame being reinforced on the back end, and the extra supports on the front to hold my 4 batteries, if this somehow kept our frame from bending?

I'm tempted to just have a few pieces of stock metal welded in place to keep this from happening like it did to so many others.

Thinking maybe a bit of money in prevention will save a lot in fixing this on down the road? Any thoughts?
Pat, your back. Great!

Your rig is a test case, but you do have certain unique setup conditions most do not.

You mentioned the bike in the back of the TT. If you can give us a weight on the bike, I can guesstimate the weight of the bike rack, unless you know it, and I can figure how much tongue weight you unload by having the bike back there. The rear motor bike reduces tongue weight.

You also have those 4 heavy batteries right on the tongue and about 100# of bikes. And in the front cargo hole I thought you had your solar electrical hardware and most likely a lot of storage. These items add tongue weight.

And your truck bed I’m sure has stuff in it you haul all over. These items while they do not add tongue weight, do add extra weight the WD bars have to tension up to actually accomplish WD on the F250. And that spring bar force works on the A frame.

So your tongue weight is sort of an unknown unless you measure it and how much you have in the back of the F250 is also an unknown.

What would be good to know is have you crawled under and inspected all welds very closely and the header for any signs of stress? I know it’s cold out right now and this might have to wait.

Your battery case I feel adds a fair amount of strength to the 4” channels from twisting. And yours has the channels going thru more of the center of the header. These are significant differences.

I have not made it to all the numbers yet, but will over the winter as time allows, but I have run the static numbers on the headers in a pure top down loading situation. My 2004, (no issue old design header) is not a lot stronger then the 2005 new design header that is having all the issues. I have to do a bucking check on the header and find the torsion differences in the 2004 5” channel frame and the 2005, 4” channel frame. Once I sort that out to have some numbers to stand behind I was going to compose a laymen’s explanation of what I “think” went wrong and why. This much I have convinced myself, it is not the header thickness differences. The 2005 design header is 6”wide and slightly thinner, the 2004 design header is 5” and slightly thicker. The lower flange width is about the same between the 2. For those into numbers in the pure vertical top loading direction:

My 2004 T2499 header has a moment of inertia of 6.47 in. 4th

ClarkLDC, 2007 T2499 header has a moment of inertia of 5.97 in. 4th

KathyH and Emans 2007 T2499 header has a moment of inertia of 7.24 in. 4th

This value defines how strong the beam will be given a load trying to deflect it. If you put the same top load on each, for sure the 7.24 will have less stress in it. However the 2004 thickness header of a 6.47 value verses the 2005 - 2007 new design of 5.97 is not that much different in strength. The 2005 -2007 6” wide header is a bigger bang for the buck in strength then the thickness change from 2004 to the 2005 redesign year.

The areas that is not great in the 2005 year redesign is the lack lower flange width of the header, the channel located in the bottom of the header and the worst part, all that coupled with 4” channel at the same time on a heavy tongue TT.

A 4” channel can handle a lot of load pushing down from it on the top. However channel iron is not very good at all in torsion or twisting in the lighter gages. The 2004 5” wide channel is wider and a lot thicker then the 2005 redesign 4” channel. The 5” channel will have significantly more twist resistance in it then the 4” channel iron. And the 6” channel used on my bigger camper has significantly more twisting resistance then the 5” channel. And that twisting action of the 4” channel is the biggest factor that I feel is the problem when combined in the higher tongue weights.

It’s not the only one factor, but the one that is the largest with the higher tongue weights acting on it. All the fixes shows here are actually working to stop the channel from twisting. When the channel twists, the header has to resist the twist and it’s shape cannot resists it and it buckles in the middle. I will put numbers to my thoughts to help back them up, or change them. Right now I have axles and tire wear issues that have consumed my free time. But I will get to this to help show folks in a simpler format what one possible cause is on what went wrong.

A recommendation for you could be, load up your camper and the truck the way you tow with it and get good weights on the TV and TT axles and a true tongue weight. With and without WD engaged. And an estimate on what bed weight aft of the rear axle is in the F250. This is a starting point to know what league you are in.

Adding a cross brace behind the header to tie the A frame rails together and to the main frame rails will add strength to the 4” channel twist issue this is for sure a fact. However in your specific case your weights are really different then most and you have more miles on your camper then some may ever have. If you inspect closely and find no stress points or cracks, along with known weights, you may be for sure the field test case to show how good that last redesign is. But then again the battery case makes it different then everyone else’s.

Glad to have you back posting again.

John
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:40 AM   #217
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WOW John, thanks for all the info and the warm welcome back. Sorry I've been away for so long, but I'm glad to be back and hope I can be of some help in answering questions for those thinking or wanting to camp some more.

I do know that the weight of the bike on the back is around 250lbs.

The rack we built is right around 100lbs. but I have no idea what its actual weight is because it's what carries our hoses, camp mat, fuel can for the motorcycle and generator, and a few other odds and ends.

I probably should have had General RV weigh the amount of steel before they welded it up, so I really have no idea how much that weighs, but by the amount of steel they used, its safe to say its over 100lbs.

I know the batteries weigh in at 75lbs each! and we have four of them up front. The rack holding them is only 1/2" angle iron that they sit in and like you said, might be a little added support on the A-Frame holding it striaght.

Our 3 solar panels on the roof are all upfront and they weigh in at only 30 somthing lbs each. That 2000watt inverter that is in the front pass-thru bin probably weighs 50lbs. by itself.

The bike rack on the front is thru bolted with Grade 8 bolts and only provides downward pressure on the A-Frame. I doubt that is doing anything to help hold it together, but does add probably 100lbs with the bikes loaded on. The bikes are quite light at around 25lbs each, but with all the steel, I'd say it's safe to say the whole rack/combo weighs around 100lbs.

I do know that when we weighed everything right before we got home, with the rear of the truck loaded like we would travel from day to day, the truck itself weighed in at 9080lbs.

The coach by itself weighed 8380lbs

and the Camper hooked to the truck but just the camper wheels on the scale gave me a reading of 7080lbs. I'm no engineer, but I know that we've been traveling with our Sunline waaaayyyy overweight this whole time....OOPS!! I never thought we were that overweight!?

So to wrap everything up, I'd have to agree that if any frame was going to bend, it should have been ours. In two years we logged over 60,000 miles, but I'd say 10,000 miles of those were without the cocah in tow. So it's safe to say we have logged 50,000 miles on the Sunline, and many of those miles were brutal.

Baja alone put one stretch of road (70 miles worth) that was such bad washboard, even crawling at the point where the needle wouldnt move on the speedometer, the inside of the 2499 sounded like it was breaking apart. I know we broke 3 bolts on the stove and it almost fell off the insert at one point!! !!

In our travels, we've been on roads like this numerous times and some were so bad, when we pulled over the inisde literally looked like a bomb went off. One time Cindy just threw her hands in the air, grabs the dogs and said, "This time you have to clean it up!"

I grabbed a beer thinking I'd sip on a cold one while trying to put everything back together and when I cracked the can open, it was so shaken up, it sprayed all over the inside of the coach only adding insult to injury



I often say I would have loved to have another camper following us or even a few other brands to see how long they would have been able to hang. Some people we've talked to have told us of their campers falling apart on bumpy expressways...LOL

I wish Sunline was still in business so we could provide them with real life stats on how bomb proof their coaches were built.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:29 PM   #218
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Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

Hello Fellow Sunline Owners,

I feel it is time to let you know that I have had my '07 Solaris T-2499 frame repaired and I hope that this repair will last for the life of the coach. I certainly want to thank all of you for your input/suggestions and postings of your fixes. I decided to have the entire 4" C-channel A-frame replaced with 5" C-channel. I incorperated the short cross member of 5" C-channel in the region of the WD bar attachment points and replaced the light weight battery brackets with 2"x2"x1/4" L-channel. The header was fabricated from 1/4" plate to form the 8" C-channel with 2" top and bottom flanges. The 5" C-channel legs of the A-frame penetrate the header 1.75" from the top and 1.25" from the bottom of the header, and they are welded all the way around. The legs of the A-frame were attached to the 6" I-beam with fishplate 4.5"x10"x0.25". About 4" behind the header is a cross-member made from 1"x2"x10ga. box channel that is capped on the ends and welded to the contact points of the A-frame (5" C-channel) and 6" I-beam on both sides. There is another cross-member of the same material and configuration welded to the I-beam and 5" C-channel where it is fishplated to the I-beam. The front ends of the I-beams were welded to the back of the header.

As you can figure from this description, I have incorporated aspects of several members' fixes. My repair took about two and a half days and included the painting for the painful cost of $2800 including the labor and materials. Chuck Bell (Lippert Components Inc.) quoted me a price of about $1200 for the work to be done in Denver, PA at their shop. But my frame was in such poor condition I did not want to risk transporting it some 80 miles to Denver. The Lippert repair would not have been made using 5" C-channel and 1/4" plate 8" C-channel header, so I opted for a local welding shop repair only 3 miles from where I had the coach stored.

I am looking forward to taking a trip to south Florida in April as a shake-down cruise. I feel quite confident at this point that this solution may be the best for my unit. I am always one for overkill!! I don't think there will be any flex in the tongue now, the rest of the frame is another story.

If I can get my photobucket account working I will try to send some pictures, but at least the description may help to visualize.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:11 PM   #219
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Larry, glad to hear you got that work done and are looking forward to hitting the road again.

I believe you had the worst frame of all of us and given you had to replace the 4" channel anyway, going to 5" is what I would have done too. Once you start replacing at that level adding the other stuff like bigger header, heavier battery brackets and the extra brace at the wd brackets is a no-brainer and doesn't really add to the cost. I agree it's probably overkill, but you now have the strength usually reserved for heavier trailers...and you won't have the nightmare again of watching that frame fail as you drive across the country.

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Old 12-03-2008, 08:52 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emam

I do know that the weight of the bike on the back is around 250lbs.

The rack we built is right around 100lbs. but I have no idea what its actual weight is because it's what carries our hoses, camp mat, fuel can for the motorcycle and generator, and a few other odds and ends.

I probably should have had General RV weigh the amount of steel before they welded it up, so I really have no idea how much that weighs, but by the amount of steel they used, its safe to say its over 100lbs.
Pat, getting back to you on your rear bike and tongue weight affects. I used my 2004 T2499 axle and TT lengths and your numbers above to come up with this.

250# = motor bike
100# = bike frame
70# = gen set, mats and stuff
-------
420# on back of TT.

I used a distance of 18" for the bike center behind the rear wall of the camper. This mathematically comes out to:

420# added 105" behind the rear axle. Yup, it’s back there.

Adds 622# to the rear axle of the TT. (Some of this is equalized to the front axle.)

Subtracts 202# from the tongue weight.

If you said each of your batteries on the tongue weighs 75# each, and I thought there where 4 of them, that is 300# of just batteries.

Almost all of that 300# ends up added to the tongue weight. That is quite the counter balance against that negative 202# the rear bikes subtracted. So bike in the back, batteries in the front = 98# added to the tongue.

And this does not even include any front cargo gear weight or gear under the bed added to the tongue.

Do you ever tow with full fresh water in the coach fresh tank? That water weights adds 150 more pounds to the tongue weight from the fresh tank and about another 30 some pounds if you fill the HW heater too.

And as FYI, for every 1# of gear added in the front cargo hole of the T2499 adds 0.7#’s to tongue weight.

At first glance I thought your rear bike was going to do some serious tongue weight removal. And it does. But those heavy batteries counteract for it in pure weight. However you may be getting some flexing/bouncing of the TT with those 2 weights so far apart and the rear bike some 105" behind the rear axle.

Do you notice a difference towing with and with out the bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by emam
The coach by itself weighed 8380lbs

and the Camper hooked to the truck but just the camper wheels on the scale gave me a reading of 7080lbs
With 7080 on the axles and 8380 the entire camper, (assuming the WD bars where not on) that comes out to be a 1,300# tongue weight. Again assuming you did not have fresh water in at this time. Ah yup, your rig is a test case for sure.

Hope this helps at least show you where some of the weights are being transferred around. These are close calculated estimates, actuals will vary a little.

John
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