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Old 10-08-2017, 06:54 PM   #1
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2363 soft floor

I've found a T2363 with a few soft spots on the floor and wanted to get some feedback. The rest of the trailer seems to be in very good condition aside form the floor, the roof and all caulk joints look well maintained with fresh dicor. You need to step hard on the floor and I would describe it as "Spongy", not a feeling like you would readily push through the floor. These spots are behind the toilet about 3 inches from the back bathroom wall and extend to the other side of the wall in the kitchen in front of the oven. These spots aren't in high traffic areas, although the kitchen side would see some traffic. There are moderate moisture readings around the perimeter of the toilet on the floor (~30%). The floor is only spongy near and against the wall (behind the toilet) but not around the perimeter of the toilet. I pulled 2 access panels (under the tub/shower and on the wall next to the toilet, and I see water stains on the lower sections of the access panels up about an inch, but I don't see any signs of water stains or damage when I spotlight around inside the panels. The outside shower is located inside/under the vanity right next to the toliet and the hoses have been disconnected and the screws in the vanity under the shower are rusted. I also see a newer Fantastic vent fan directly above the toilet. The dealer suggested replacing the toilet seal but wouldn't do the floor repair and siad it was more trouble than it was worth.

My questions: Am i under-estimating the severity of the floor damage if I was to consider just living with it as is and hoping it doesn't get any worse? Would repairing the floor be more trouble than it's worth considering it extends from the bathroom across the wall into the kitchen? Any suggestions on where the water damage may be coming from and if it's one of the repairs I already mentioned? I attached a crude drawing to help visualize. Sorry if it;s hard to read.

Thanks in advance-
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Old 10-08-2017, 07:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
I've found a T2363 with a few soft spots on the floor and wanted to get some feedback. The rest of the trailer seems to be in very good condition aside form the floor, the roof and all caulk joints look well maintained with fresh dicor. You need to step hard on the floor and I would describe it as "Spongy", not a feeling like you would readily push through the floor. These spots are behind the toilet about 3 inches from the back bathroom wall and extend to the other side of the wall in the kitchen in front of the oven. These spots aren't in high traffic areas, although the kitchen side would see some traffic. There are moderate moisture readings around the perimeter of the toilet on the floor (~30%). The floor is only spongy near and against the wall (behind the toilet) but not around the perimeter of the toilet. I pulled 2 access panels (under the tub/shower and on the wall next to the toilet, and I see water stains on the lower sections of the access panels up about an inch, but I don't see any signs of water stains or damage when I spotlight around inside the panels. The outside shower is located inside/under the vanity right next to the toliet and the hoses have been disconnected and the screws in the vanity under the shower are rusted. I also see a newer Fantastic vent fan directly above the toilet. The dealer suggested replacing the toilet seal but wouldn't do the floor repair and siad it was more trouble than it was worth.

My questions: Am i under-estimating the severity of the floor damage if I was to consider just living with it as is and hoping it doesn't get any worse? Would repairing the floor be more trouble than it's worth considering it extends from the bathroom across the wall into the kitchen? Any suggestions on where the water damage may be coming from and if it's one of the repairs I already mentioned? I attached a crude drawing to help visualize. Sorry if it;s hard to read.

Thanks in advance-
I could be wrong but it sounds more like a leaky toilet flange or shower drain than a roof or seam leak. Being under the wall there could be either advantageous or traumatic depending on your skills and the actual construction in that area.
I'm certain someone with more experience than I will weigh in soon but to me it sounds fixable but I tend to jump into a project and look back later!

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Old 10-08-2017, 07:40 PM   #3
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I could be wrong but it sounds more like a leaky toilet flange or shower drain than a roof or seam leak.
now that you mention it they had added some caulk between the lower tub section and the upper shower surround that looked like it had seen better days but I thought the shower and tub were all one piece? Is there a seam between the lower tub and upper surround that might be the leak source?
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:17 PM   #4
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Hi Mark, I see you found another one your looking at.

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Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
I've found a T2363 with a few soft spots on the floor and wanted to get some feedback. The rest of the trailer seems to be in very good condition aside form the floor, the roof and all caulk joints look well maintained with fresh dicor.
This is a good sign. By chance did you place the moisture meter on the roof top surface and if so how did it read?

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You need to step hard on the floor and I would describe it as "Spongy", not a feeling like you would readily push through the floor. These spots are behind the toilet about 3 inches from the back bathroom wall and extend to the other side of the wall in the kitchen in front of the oven. These spots aren't in high traffic areas, although the kitchen side would see some traffic. There are moderate moisture readings around the perimeter of the toilet on the floor (~30%). The floor is only spongy near and against the wall (behind the toilet) but not around the perimeter of the toilet.
I agree, the foam gasket on the toilet could be bad and it leaked into the floor. Or they had a leak in the fresh water leading into the toilet at one time.

If you place the moisture meter face down on the floor and were seeing ~ 30%, that could be from a level of wet insulation under the floor or a mold/algae of some kind growing on the bottom of the OSB floor. I had this white kind of fungus growing on my T-1950. The OSB has some swell to it, but in my case, the wood was stiff still. Once I opened it up and let air get to it and took out any wet insulation, then the 30% went down to zero over time. And in my case I had a lot of water coming down the back wall migrating across the bottom of the Darco under the floor to get to this. Yours may not be this advanced and more localized if it was a plumbing leak.

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I pulled 2 access panels (under the tub/shower and on the wall next to the toilet, and I see water stains on the lower sections of the access panels up about an inch, but I don't see any signs of water stains or damage when I spotlight around inside the panels.
Confirming I understand this as I do not know where that access panel is. There should be something for an access panel to get to the trap of the shower. If it is not inside, it may be under the camper with a screw on panel. I'm assuming this is the access panel you found, the trap panel?

If there are "no" water stains on the panel "inside" under the shower/tub and the stains are on the "outside", (confirm I understood this right) then there may have been a water overflow out of the shower/tub down onto the floor and they did not mop it up right away. This would allow the outside to get stained buy not the inside. If they have a shower curtain, and it leaked outside the shower, that is possible.

Does the floor show 0% moisture or close to it from the toilet scanning over to the shower stall area? If there is a dry spot in there, then this water staining could be from a totally separate shower issue and not part of the toilet floor wetness.

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The outside shower is located inside/under the vanity right next to the toilet and the hoses have been disconnected and the screws in the vanity under the shower are rusted.
The outside shower may have cracked from a bad winterization job and they just unhooked it. Heads up if you connect it back up, something might be cracked in there. They may have just unhooked it to not have it happen again or they did not want to buy new parts. Don't know, only speculating. This could be where some water dripped down inside the vanity to rust the screws.

Does the floor inside the vanity show 0% moisture? The screw rusting / possible leak could be from a long time ago and the floor in there is still good. If it is, that is good news as there is no floor issues under the vanity.

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I also see a newer Fantastic vent fan directly above the toilet. The dealer suggested replacing the toilet seal but wouldn't do the floor repair and siad it was more trouble than it was worth.
Odds are high the dealer wants nothing to do with a rot repair. They can burn a lot of time and never get their money back out of it on a used camper. You are educated on leaks and a moisture meter, the next customer may never see that area.

The toilet seal, I would for sure have them give you a new seal if they offered. It is then up to you to have them install it or you take it and deal with it later. If they pull up the toilet and there is wood rot in the screws area, you do not know if they will fix it or not as they do not want to get into rot repair.

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My questions: Am i under-estimating the severity of the floor damage if I was to consider just living with it as is and hoping it doesn't get any worse? Would repairing the floor be more trouble than it's worth considering it extends from the bathroom across the wall into the kitchen? Any suggestions on where the water damage may be coming from and if it's one of the repairs I already mentioned? I attached a crude drawing to help visualize. Sorry if it;s hard to read.

Thanks in advance-
First is to confirm you do not see any moisture meter concerns coming from the roof down to the toilet floor area. Scan the wall and ceiling and around the roof vent with the fantastic fan. If this comes up dry, it helps confirm the floor wetness did not come from a prior broken roof vent or a roof issue.

If you get the camper and want to inspect the floor area better, you can pull up the toilet, unscrew the tank flange from the black tank and this will open up the floor area a little under the toilet for inspection. You can yank out wet insulation if there is any and let the under floor area dry out up through the hole with the toilet flange out.

The inspection will then help tell you to leave it or it needs to get fixed and when it may need to get fixed. Soon or a few years out.

Without being able to see this better, it is a hard call to make. It is fixable. If the water is not from the roof, just dealing with the floor is a lot easier. Not simple, but not complex, more of time consuming. You will need to do this repair yourself for cost reasons if you have wood tools or a friend who can help.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
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now that you mention it they had added some caulk between the lower tub section and the upper shower surround that looked like it had seen better days but I thought the shower and tub were all one piece? Is there a seam between the lower tub and upper surround that might be the leak source?
No, not really. The shower tub/basin and wall surround may not be all one unit in a camper.

I'm not 100% sure on yours, but odds are high it is made like our shower basin is. In a camper, the shower basin or tub is separate from the wall surround on purpose. On ours, Sunline put down a piece of Styrofoam board under the shower basin so the floor would flex and not be rigid and crack over time from the weight of walking on it.

The tub or basin has about a 1" to 1 1/4" high lip all around the surround wall sides (all 3 walls). The wall surround then goes over the top of the lip on the inside. This overlap creates a breathing space so the basin can move as the wall surround is not going to move as it is glued to the wall board. The lip also creates a water barrier dam so water does not go behind the wall.

Some folks do not realize this lip concept and caulk the basin to the wall surround. They think this is made like a house unit. If they caulk it, the caulk will crack over time from the floor flexing. Basically, you leave the 3 sides of the surround un-caulked from the basin. If there is a shower door or screen rail sealed to the open side where you get in and out, then it is OK to caulk that one side to the tub/basin as it is not part of the wall surround. And on the surround walls near the opening wall to get in and out of the shower, you may need to do about 1" of the basin to surround caulking so water does not leak out onto the bath floor. This 1" long will work to seal up that space if there is one.

Look close and you can see if the one you are looking at has this lip around it. You should see the surround has a step out slightly in it at the bottom of the 3 walls to go over the basin lip. I'll see if I can find a pic. of ours.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:36 PM   #6
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This may help on how the shower basin. In my post you can sort of see the surround lip as it goes over the basin. Not the greatest pic but the one I could find.

Shower caulk ?

This shows the Styrofoam under the shower basin. scroll down a few replies.

2004 Sole - Leaking Shower?
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB View Post

This is a good sign. By chance did you place the moisture meter on the roof top surface and if so how did it read?
I didn't measure the roof (from the outside) with the moisture gage, I guess I should have just didn't think of it. It was dry all over from the inside (~<5%)


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I agree, the foam gasket on the toilet could be bad and it leaked into the floor. Or they had a leak in the fresh water leading into the toilet at one time.

If you place the moisture meter face down on the floor and were seeing ~ 30%, that could be from a level of wet insulation under the floor or a mold/algae of some kind growing on the bottom of the OSB floor. I had this white kind of fungus growing on my T-1950. The OSB has some swell to it, but in my case, the wood was stiff still. Once I opened it up and let air get to it and took out any wet insulation, then the 30% went down to zero over time. And in my case I had a lot of water coming down the back wall migrating across the bottom of the Darco under the floor to get to this. Yours may not be this advanced and more localized if it was a plumbing leak.
One of my concerns is that the soft floor doesn't circle the perimeter of the toilet as one might expect if the moisture readings are to be believed and the leaky bowl gasket was the culprit. The soft spots seem to follow the wall on both sides (bath and kitchen). I tested the wall and ceiling with the gage all over this area and found no evidence of roof down leakage.


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Confirming I understand this as I do not know where that access panel is. There should be something for an access panel to get to the trap of the shower. If it is not inside, it may be under the camper with a screw on panel. I'm assuming this is the access panel you found, the trap panel?
Yes, the first panel I mentioned is the shower trap panel and it's located directly in front of the toilet and under the shower/tub. If I shine my lite into the trap area under where the plumbing is I see no signs of leakage or rot, just the expected spider webs and dust, however the panel itself shows water stains on the lower edge. Since this is a bathroom this is probably expected after 15 years of showers etc. But maybe not??

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If there are "no" water stains on the panel "inside" under the shower/tub and the stains are on the "outside", (confirm I understood this right) then there may have been a water overflow out of the shower/tub down onto the floor and they did not mop it up right away. This would allow the outside to get stained buy not the inside. If they have a shower curtain, and it leaked outside the shower, that is possible.
Both panels showed signs of water stains on the inside but not the outside. I don't recall specifically but I think these panels had the wall covering on the outside of them so water stains wouldn't necessrily be as apparent on the outside.


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Does the floor show 0% moisture or close to it from the toilet scanning over to the shower stall area? If there is a dry spot in there, then this water staining could be from a totally separate shower issue and not part of the toilet floor wetness.
Not 0% but it does drop off from 20-30% right next the bowl down to 10-15% further away. The floor area is very small so it's not a very large surface area to measure. I'm guessing everybody floods there bathroom once or twice by leaving the roof vent open or some other reason and this could very well leave these water stains on the access panels. But it's a data point I wanted to mention.



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The outside shower may have cracked from a bad winterization job and they just unhooked it. Heads up if you connect it back up, something might be cracked in there. They may have just unhooked it to not have it happen again or they did not want to buy new parts. Don't know, only speculating. This could be where some water dripped down inside the vanity to rust the screws.
Thanks, that's a great point. I'm not sure how uselful an outside shower is to me any way so It's no big deal that it's disconnected. Just another data point I wanted to mention. Especially since their are signs of water leakage below it with the rusty screws. I also remember some warpage of the very thin shelving in there. It looked like 1/4" luan and had a nice bow in it from warpage. Could have a had a busted water line at some point that went unnoticed for a while, but is fixed now.

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Does the floor inside the vanity show 0% moisture? The screw rusting / possible leak could be from a long time ago and the floor in there is still good. If it is, that is good news as there is no floor issues under the vanity.
I don't think there was direct access to the floor under the vanity, but I don't recall testing the floor directly. The floor just outside the vanity was solid and low moisture readings.

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Odds are high the dealer wants nothing to do with a rot repair. They can burn a lot of time and never get their money back out of it on a used camper. You are educated on leaks and a moisture meter, the next customer may never see that area.
This seems clear. He did say he would remove the toilet and replace the seal but that would be the limit of his repairs. I haven't negotiated any discounts based on the soft floor just yet.

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The toilet seal, I would for sure have them give you a new seal if they offered. It is then up to you to have them install it or you take it and deal with it later. If they pull up the toilet and there is wood rot in the screws area, you do not know if they will fix it or not as they do not want to get into rot repair.
They said they would replace it but won't do any work until the unit is sold. My concern is committing to a unit that may have lurking issues. This is the crux of my dilemma since I can't seem to confirm where the leak is coming from.



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Without being able to see this better, it is a hard call to make. It is fixable. If the water is not from the roof, just dealing with the floor is a lot easier. Not simple, but not complex, more of time consuming. You will need to do this repair yourself for cost reasons if you have wood tools or a friend who can help.
I'll keep you posted- Thanks for all your help John (and Draughty)
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:44 PM   #8
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Here is a picture of the toilet/vanity in the bathroom. You can see the shower plumbing access panel in front of the toilet. The soft spot is behind the toilet along the wall.
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File Type: jpg 2363 toliet v2.jpg (22.2 KB, 6 views)
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Old 10-09-2017, 12:53 PM   #9
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and the shower and tub surround. Looks like it has the lip around the surround.
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Old 10-09-2017, 11:00 PM   #10
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and the shower and tub surround. Looks like it has the lip around the surround.
Yes, that lip is what I was referring too. The wall surround is glued to the wall structure rigid and the shower tub is separately support by it's base to flex.

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Old 10-09-2017, 11:11 PM   #11
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One of my concerns is that the soft floor doesn't circle the perimeter of the toilet as one might expect if the moisture readings are to be believed and the leaky bowl gasket was the culprit. The soft spots seem to follow the wall on both sides (bath and kitchen). I tested the wall and ceiling with the gage all over this area and found no evidence of roof down leakage.
The toilet flange gasket my not leak all the way around. It may only leak in one area. And the leak may not be from the gasket, it might be a leaking vacuum breaker that is part of the toilet fresh water system or a fresh water piping leak. Hard to tell without more digging into it.


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Yes, the first panel I mentioned is the shower trap panel and it's located directly in front of the toilet and under the shower/tub. If I shine my lite into the trap area under where the plumbing is I see no signs of leakage or rot, just the expected spider webs and dust, however the panel itself shows water stains on the lower edge. Since this is a bathroom this is probably expected after 15 years of showers etc. But maybe not??

Both panels showed signs of water stains on the inside but not the outside. I don't recall specifically but I think these panels had the wall covering on the outside of them so water stains wouldn't necessrily be as apparent on the outside.
Your good pic shows a shower curtain. Odds are favorable the lower curtain was not where it was supposed to be and during a shower water went out onto the floor.

The wall paper in ours is a vinyl type. And it can hold back water and not stain. But the non vinyl side is bare luan which can wick water. It is not suprising a shower curtain leak to the floor created a puddle that the bottom of the shower trap panel wicked up some water. This could create the inside with a stain but not the outside unless it was a real heavy leak.

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Not 0% but it does drop off from 20-30% right next the bowl down to 10-15% further away. The floor area is very small so it's not a very large surface area to measure. I'm guessing everybody floods there bathroom once or twice by leaving the roof vent open or some other reason and this could very well leave these water stains on the access panels. But it's a data point I wanted to mention.
Understood and agree. I'm a firm believer in the Max Air covers upgrade to help prevent a roof vent leak when accidentally left open or worse when the sun bakes the roof vent dome to death and they crumble and leak. The Max Air is made from better plastic with better UV protectors in it. The vent cover inside can fall apart but the Max Air cover keeps the camper dry.

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I'll keep you posted- Thanks for all your help John (and Draughty)
Good luck and hope this works out for you, however you want it too. That floor plan is a good one and we have many members with it.

Thanks

John
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