T-267 SR with 2 Towing choices... advice needed.

[Leslief761]

Hello, First thank you for such a wonderful resource here for Sunline owners or people considering Sunline campers. We are looking at a 2003 T-267 SR and have 2 Towing choices available but I fear that both may be inadequate. I did a. lot of reading in the towing forum and also used (and added to) a spreadsheet that an outside source created to help figure out if a towing vehicle will work. One vehicle is a 2012 Ford F150 King Ranch with a Heavy Duty towing package and the other is a 2020 Chevy work truck with an 8' bed, no cab, and also with a heavy duty towing package. I've converted the spreadsheets to text.

The King Ranch numbers look good until I get to the Hitch weight in the Payload. The Chevy numbers look good except the campers weighs quite a bit more than the truck I think. Please let me know what you think and if I should look at a smaller camper and in general max size.
Thanks in advance!

RV SPECS
2003 Sunline Solaris T-267SR
Dry Weight 5,730
GVWR 8,600
Hitch Weight 1,000

TRUCK 1 SPECS
2012 Ford Heavy Duty Trailer Towing, 9.75 axle, 3.31 axle ratio,
3.5 twin turbo V6 ecoboost

Curb Weight 6,001
GVWR 7,200
GCWR 17,100
Payload Capacity 1,199
Towing Capacity 9,900
Rear Axle Ratio 3.31
Wheel Base Distance 145.00
Front Axle Rating 3,750
Rear Axle Rating RGWR 4,050
Max tongue weight 1,000



GVWR and Payload

Passengers 400
Cargo - Camping Gear 500
Total payload (w/o hitch weight) 900
Hitch Weight of trailer 1,000
Total payload (hitched up) 1,900
Payload leftover (-701)


GCWR and Tow Capacity

GCVW Hitched 12,631
GCVW Avail. 4,469

RV GVWR

Dry Weight 5,730
Full Water
Batteries 100
Camping Gear 500
Food/h20/clothes 300
Gross Weight Est. 6,630
GVWR 8,600
RV Avail. 1,970


TRUCK 2 SPECS

2020 Chevy Silverado REG Work Truck 4WD, 5.3L Ecotec3 V8, 6 Speed Auto, Trailering Package, StabIlitrack w/trailer sway control and hill start assist, Grabber Tires, 8' bed, liner and bed cover.

Curb Weight 4,889
GVWR 6,900
GCWR 15,000
Payload Capacity 2,011
Towing Capacity 8,100
Rear Axle Ratio 3.42
Wheel Base Distance 139.50
Front Axle Rating 3,800
Rear Axle Rating 3,800
Max tongue weight 980
TWR Trailer Weight Rating 9,800


GVWR and Payload

Passengers 400
Cargo - Camping Gear 500
Total payload (w/o hitch weight) 900
Hitch Weight of trailer 1,000
Total payload (hitched up) 1,900
Payload leftover 111


GCWR and Tow Capacity
GCVW Hitched 11,519
GCVW Avail. 3,481

RV GVWR

Dry Weight5,730
Batteries 100
Camping Gear 500
Food/h20/clothes 300
Gross Weight Est. 6,630
GVWR 8,600
RV Avail. 1,970

These are all the number I have.

Leslie

[Leslief761]

Actually I believe the numbers may be higher for the King Ranch with the Heavy Duty Towing package. I’m trying to verify that now. I also think the numbers I put for camping gear in the truck may be high. I have room with the weights to move the heat to the camper and still be OK there. It’s the payload that still concerns me. We won’t be traveling all over the country but I do foresee a yearly trip to Florida (from Maine) and a few shorter trips.

[JohnB]

Hi Leslie,

First, we commend you for digging into this and sorting it out beforehand. Good for you.

I’ll ask a few questions to clarify some details and then comment on some things. This ended up being longer than expected, but I touched on many points to consider. Read over, add answers to the questions, and feel free to ask any questions I stated for clarification.

Some comments:

Both of your trucks are half-ton trucks. Both are terrific trucks within their capacity. As you have already found out, being able to pull the camper is very different than being able to hold up the weights and control a large travel trailer (TT).

These newer ½ ton trucks with a small V6 turbo-charged engine sure can create the power; the issue is payload and rear axle ratings.

Let’s look at some of your assumptions. The payload in the truck as this applies to both trucks. You stated this:

GVWR and Payload

Passengers 400
Cargo - Camping Gear 500
Total payload (w/o hitch weight) 900
Hitch Weight of trailer 1,000
Total payload (hitched up) 1,900

Since you selected a bunkhouse camper, that suggests kids or grandkids may be involved. Please confirm this yes/no? The only reason I ask is that it will pertain to extra cargo weight needed for the kids in the camper. The 400# of passengers suggest small child/children with a mom and dad. The 400# cargo number is what it is, and it sounds good.

I see you added 500# of truck cargo weight. This is a good, estimated number. I carry 500# of stuff, and we all have our stuff. Our “stuff” all adds up: tools, firewood, lawn chairs, grills, bikes, etc.

The 1,000 # of loaded camper hitch weight, how did you arrive at this number? Please provide the details, as it points to being low for a loaded 2003 T-267SR when you stated Full Water weight on the camper.

You listed the F150 with a max limit of 1,000# hitch weight. I agree, as Ford may limit it to align with the rear axle capacity. Between payload, axles, and truck receiver ratings, the F150 will be ruled out as it cannot handle the weights and be under the truck ratings.

The Chevy 1500 work truck starts off weighing much less, which does help the truck weight issues. The F150 with all the goodies has a curb weight of 1,112# heavier than the Chevy. The Chevy work truck has 812# more payload available.

Something else stuck out between the two trucks, the GCWR, and I “think” I know part of why. The 2012 F150 at that time was rated at 17,100#. And the 2020 Chevy at 15,000#. The two trucks most likely had different towing specs to follow other than Ford and GM. The F150 was pre-2013, and the Chevy was post-2013. In 2013, SAE issued SAE J2807, a new guide for towing standards on creating the ratings. Before this, all the manufacturers created their way of declaring the ratings. Not all the truck manufacturers adopted the new guide initially. It took a while, and some had to lower the tow ratings from a prior year. That is now old news; just mentioning it as FYI as both trucks are rated to tow just under a 10,000# trailer with all the fine print disclaimers on how to obtain that value. See here as one place for more on the SAE J2807 https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...-the-standard/

There is something that TTs bring along that needs to be reflected in the tow ratings: the frontal area and what tow rating is declared against what front area of the camper is exposed to the wind. Some manufacturers use 60 sq. feet as the point where towing performances will degrade regardless of weight. Wind drag is real. Most larger campers exceed this frontal area spec. The only way to compensate for it, is to have excess pulling capacity (be under the GCWR excess). More is better; in your setup, 1,500 to 2500# excess is a good thing if you load to obtain it. The truck will work less hard, and the tow will be more enjoyable when hills come your way.

Let’s talk about the camper weight estimates. You stated this:

RV GVWR

Dry Weight 5,730
Batteries 100
Camping Gear 500
Food/h20/clothes 300
Gross Weight Est. 6,630
GVWR 8,600
RV Avail. 1,970

You will need some adjustments to this, I’ll explain. Sunline uses the dry weight in their brochures, and yes, 5,730# is what they stated for your camper. This is for a stock camper without added options, battery, or LP gas in the tanks. Full Fresh water is also not included in the dry weight.

The 2003 T267SR is shown to have a 32-gallon fresh “system”. 32 gal. x 8.3/gal = 266# of water weight when the “system” is full. Sunline was good to us; they supplied a good steel cradle under the fresh tank if the tanks were under the camper to be able to tow with full fresh water to camp. You mentioned Full water before, and it seems to be stated in the h20 value also, but 300# is listed, and 266# is just water, leaving only 34# for food and clothes. I suspect you may not have realized that full fresh water is added cargo and not part of dry weight. If you need to tow with full fresh, add it to your weights.

Your battery estimate at 100# is good.
The LP gas in the two, 30# tanks will add 63# and most on the tongue weight. So add that this weight also.
Cargo, you split cargo at 500# and then 300# for food/h20/clothes. This would be 800#. That 800# estimate is not a bad one (other than the full water issue), but in time, it may grow as more campouts come. It is common for camper couples to add 1,000# of cargo from home to the camper. We all have our stuff, and it comes in small items, but it all adds up. Kids also have their own needs and, in time, add extra.

Added options, spare tire, power tongue jack, and crank down stabilizers are options, and if yours has them, they add weight also. The items I listed are not in the dry catalog weight.

You will need a weight distribution hitch (WD), part of this weight adds to the truck and some to the camper. While the truck will bear most of the dead weight of the WD hitch, the camper could gain 20 to 30# TW from it.

None of those extra weights above will put you over the camper GVWR, but it affects the loaded camper tongue weight, affecting the truck payload, rear axle, and truck receiver. The dry tongue weight is 750# on an empty stock model. Then add the 100# battery and the 63# LP gas = 913#, and this is with no gear in the camper. It will not take much to be above 1,000# loaded tongue weight.

You can only load cargo in the areas Sunline provided. You can store a fair amount of cargo in the front bedroom, under the bed and cabinets. A good percentage of this added weight goes to the tongue weight. The kitchen weight is over the axles, which adds GVW but does not always add tongue weight. Storage behind the rear axle reduces some tongue weight; how much depends on how much it weighs and how far behind the axles. It is a balancing act, but you want 12% to 15% tongue weight (TW) per loaded GVW to create a stable towing camper. 10% TW is the bottom limit, but be careful not to get that close as LP tanks go empty, and at times, extra weight is added to the back of the camper or removed from the front. Targeting 12% and up allows some freedom to shift cargo weights and still have stable towing.

Carrying full fresh water is a wild card with loaded TW. Only a few floor plans have the fresh tank over the axles, which does not add or subtract from TW. I had a 2004 T2499 where the fresh tanks were half away between the front axle and the tow ball. When I filled our the 42-gallon fresh system (349#), it added 200# extra TW. If you plan on carrying fresh water, you need to understand what the full fresh system does to TW. I do not know where your fresh tank is located, do you? I can help calculate the TW difference if needed, but I will need some dimensions from the camper to do this if we get to that.

Your estimated loaded tongue weight could be 1,100 to 1,200# when loaded with the 800# weights you mentioned. This estimate does not include freshwater, as we have to determine whether it adds extra weight or not. The point is, the odds are high that you will have more than a 1,000# loaded TW, and what does that do to the truck?

Truck receiver, what does the sticker on the back of the Chevy state as max weight in weight distribution mode? GM has always had a sticker there in the past.

Can the 500# cargo in the truck bed be lowered? It can help get you closer to the Chevy, making this work. I will say this: you will be at the maximum ratings on the truck for GVWR and possibly the rear axle. The truck is rated for a full load; you are just going to be right there.

You will not be able to load the camper to the full 8,600# GVWR and stay within the truck ratings. Some day, if you need to load that much cargo, that could be the time a 3/4 ton truck comes.

The only way to get this estimate closer is to weigh the truck. Fuel it up, go to a truck scale, and get it weighed axle by axle. This gives you a true with added options for the weight the truck is starting at. Then you know where you are starting from.

You mentioned that the TT could weigh more than the truck; yes, this does happen. While an older guideline was to have the trailer weigh less than the truck, that guideline only sometimes happens on modern-day trucks. Even Ford and Chevy show this in the tow ratings. The truck is rated to tow just under a 10,000# trailer on an empty truck plus driver, yet the truck GVW is much less than the trailer tow rating. The trailer must have good balance on TW %; the tires need to be inflated correctly and stiff enough for towing; a WD hitch is needed and properly set; a WD hitch with integrated anti-sway control is better; the trailer brakes have to be in good working order, and the whole system needs to be optimized to not be over their limits.

As FYI, my F350 loaded to go camping by itself is less than our big T-310SR TT loaded. But when the trailer and truck are hitched, and the WD hitch is engaged, the axle weights are heavier on the truck than unhitched, and it helps with traction and steering control. That older guideline may have been made when full-sized cars towed trailers with no WD hitch. The car's front end was too far unloaded in this case, and the trailer could push the car around more easily.

Hope this helps

John

[Leslief761]

Hi John, Thanks so much for taking the time to reply in such length! I deeply appreciate it! To answer some of your questions... It's just my husband and I so passenger weight is more around 350. No children or grandchildren but we do have 3 dogs totaling 170 lbs. As far as gear it was just a guesstimate. Off the top of my head I can think of a small webber Travelor grill which weighs 49 lbs and a Pulsar generator which weighs 47.3 lbs. We would probably wait to get to the campground to get firewood but definitely would bring folding chairs. I forgot to mention both trucks have bed liners and flat covers. I must have listed the water wrong because we do not plan on bringing water in the fresh water tank. This tank is under the lower back bunk. BTW we chose the bunkhouse for the dogs. The camper does have a spare tire. I'm not sure if it has stabilizers but if it doesn't we would want them. All this said if we used the Chevy to tow we wouldn't have room for the dogs. We don't plan on bringing then on local trips, but we do plan on at least one longer trip a year to SC or FL and we would want to bring them. A bigger truck is in our plans for the future but not for a year or two or whenever the Chevy is paid off. I was looking at the bigger campers because our long term goal is to buy land in SC and bring the camper down for the winter while we build a house and barn. We also have 2 horses and 4 goats so will need to have both vehicles going down with the camper and horse trailer. Still trying to figure it all out. Normally we don't travel with the goats. But right now I have to work with what we have and keep it safe for us and others on the road around us. We're in Maine and it's getting about that time when we'll have to wait until spring to buy a camper and then prices will go up. We already had an accepted offer on this one but I let the owners know about the weight issue and they opened up the listing as available again. The urge to just buy it is real... but I don't want to be white knuckling on every trip so am restraining myself.

[Leslief761]

I forgot to add these stickers… the brown background one is the Ford, gray is Chevy.

[JohnB]

Hi Leslief761,

The rating stickers help. The Ford shows the max payload at 1,199#. That includes all payload, including the occupants. With 350# of people and 170# of pet weight, that is 520# of the 1,199 allowed, leaving you 679# left. Then you have a bed liner, a cover, and whatever else you must have gear in the truck before you hitch up the camper. The raw weight is an issue for the Ford.

The Chevy is better, with 2,011 # payload, but it creates a seating issue with the pets. Any must-have gear, the flat top cover, and the truck mat are also cargo. While you may be able to reduce some cargo and allow more tongue weight, there is another time to work through.

You may have a tongue weight issue with the 2003 T267SR camper on the Chevy due to the truck receiver hitch. If you look at the sticker with the Max tongue weight of 980#, that may be the truck receiver hitch limit. Could you check the rating sticker and see what it says? There should be an actual weight rating sticker on the receiver hitch.

The sticker may look like this. This is from a 2013 3500 Silverado, which has more load ratings than yours, but it is the newest picture of a GM receiver tag I have to show you. They went to more pictorial tags.


Here is off a 2012 2500 Silverado. They used the older worded format.




If the Chevy has a receiver limit, you may be able to upgrade it for a more load rating. Curt Towing Products offers a good aftermarket receiver for the 2022 1500 Silverado. You pick the correct one with a rating. NOTE: While the newly upgraded receiver can handle more weight, that does not change the truck rear axle ratings or the GVWR on the truck; it just allows you to have more tongue weight while giving up the truck bed payload. The truck suspension loads still limit you.

If you use the Chevy, you must manage the truck bed weights (less cargo) and the camper cargo weight to fit the truck. For example, if the camper ends up with a 1,100# loaded tongue weight, for easy, quick math, subtract the 1,100# tongue weight from the 2,011 payload = 911# cargo allowed, Then subtract the 350# adults, = 561# cargo allowed left for any truck bed cargo, bed mat, bed cover or any other must-have things in the truck.

You will also need a weight distribution hitch and, ideally, integrated mechanical anti-sway control included in the hitch.

Hope this helps. I know, lots of decisions.

John

[Leslief761]

Thanks again for your response John! I could not find a sticker on the hitch of the Chevy but will look around again. I should say right off that we bit the bullet and bought the trailer. We’ll use the Chevy for local trips and upgrade to an F250 when we sell our other travel trailer this spring. We usually don’t take the dogs on local trips but will when we go travel to SC for winters which is the end plan. In the meantime we’ll keep a closer watch on the weight and bring the truck and trailer to the local truck stop for weighing. It did come with a Reese weight distribution hitch… the kind that has chains at the end of the bars.
The reason we bought was a combination of price, distance (7.5 miles away), and model after looking around quite extensively within 400 miles. We got it for $4000 but it does need some work specifically on the slide. Some work has already been done to it but it wasn’t finished on the inside. Also am not sure if the quality of the work done. I’ll have to make another post in the appropriate forum with the pictures I took today. It takes me some time to get the pictures small enough for the site to accept.
All in all we’re super excited about the camper even with the work that needs to be done. It’s definitely worth it to us.
Leslie

[JohnB]

Hi Leslie,

Congrats on your new Sunny! We are here to help with almost anything that can go wrong in a Sunline. Please don't hesitate to ask if you can't find what you need in our older posts. We are glad to help.

Good decision on the truck upgrade. Yes, your current truck can get you by, and it sounds like you will keep track of the weights to not be in an overload situation. Good for you!

We had a similar situation with our current camper, the 2004 T310SR. We had a K2500 Suburban that we used on our prior Sunline, which was an upgrade from the prior 1500 truck. Going into the deal when we bought the T310SR, I knew a truck upgrade would be in our not-too-distant future. We used the 3/4 ton Suburban to get the camper home, as it was within its capacity with the camper unloaded, and we camped with it for a few months short trips from home, watching the weights, again, in this case, loaded tongue weights was the issue. It's the same as your issue, just at a different level.

The 3/4 ton Suburban could only handle a 1,200# loaded tongue weight, even with a WD hitch. The 2500HD pickup truck can handle more weight, but not the Burb. After searching for three months, we found our 2005 F350 in 2007. Back then, good used trucks were available. It was used, only 25K miles on it, but it was the right truck and still had some factory warranty. Back then, GM did not make a crew cab 1-ton SRW truck with a short bed (6 1/2'), only long beds, so we switched to Ford. And the long bed would not fit in our previous house's garage. Our T310SR fully loaded has a 1,600# loaded tongue weight. The camper has a 10,000# GVWR, and we have managed to fill it as the years have gone by.

I hope you have fun fixing up your camper.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Leslief761

I’ll have to make another post in the appropriate forum with the pictures I took today. It takes me some time to get the pictures small enough for the site to accept.

All in all we’re super excited about the camper even with the work that needs to be done. It’s definitely worth it to us.
Leslie

Not sure which way you are trying to post pics

There are 3 ways to add pics.

1. Upload pics to a specific post, attaching them at the end of the post. I see the size listed is the older small size. I will have to check if they are out of date

2. Link them in from a publicly viewable web photo hosting service you have.

See here for 1 and 2 https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...html#post86041

3. You can upload pics to the forum in your own personal photo album. The size limit here is 2.00 Mb each, 1,600 x 1,600 pixels. Then, link them to anywhere in the text of a post. See here for how to create an album. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...html#post87945

If you still need help, let us know. We can help

Hope this helps

John

[Leslief761]

Hi John, Thanks for your support and encouragement with our Sunline and help with photos! I had trouble previously but this time I put the album through a Photoshop script to resize them and all went well. I’m not sure if I could have put all the photos in one past or not but dividing them made sense as I could break it down into outside and inside pics. Thanks again and I really appreciate the help! We will need it for sure!

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Leslief761

Hi John, Thanks for your support and encouragement with our Sunline and help with photos! I had trouble previously but this time I put the album through a Photoshop script to resize them and all went well. I’m not sure if I could have put all the photos in one past or not but dividing them made sense as I could break it down into outside and inside pics. Thanks again and I really appreciate the help! We will need it for sure!

Hi Leslie,

You are very welcome, and we are glad to help.

When putting pics in a post, I see your slide post, and I will respond to those topics in that post; here, I will expand on the pics posted per your question.

As I mentioned above, there are 3 ways to add pics to a post. Any of the 3 are OK to use, and you can use all 3, you pick the method that works best for you at the time you are creating a post/reply.

1. The attaching method: this is where you upload them to the forum, and they get attached at the end of the post. There is a 6 pic per post limit when they attach. If you want more than 6 pics, you create a new reply in the same post and get 6 more, and you can keep going with more replies as needed.

When the pics are attached, there is a way to "link" them into the post's wording after they are uploaded. Verses are all grouped at the end so that you can put words before and after a pic, but again, you only get 6 pics per post. I figured out how to do this a while ago, but I do not recall off the top of my head. If this interests you, let me know, and I'll sort it out and provide you with the how-to.

2. If you have a photo hosting site, you can use any site that has the pics listed as "public" viewing, and the image needs to end in; bmp gif, jpe, jpeg, jpg, pdf, png, and psd, just like attaching them allows with one exception. The system will not allow a Photo Bucket account to be linked. Years ago, there was a big issue with Photo Bucket, and the forum owners no longer allowed them to be used. This issue was industry-wide, not just our forum. With your own photo hosting site, you can link a picture to our site using the IMG command or the postage stamp icon. I use Flickr, but many other photo-hosting sites are out there. These pics can be placed anywhere in the reply, between words, etc, and there are no practical limits to how many. It makes sense to break up really long replies to try and keep it manageable. See this post of mine; you can skim it, but you can see how the pics fit in with the text. These pics are all linked to my Flickr account.https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...avy-17684.html

3. Create your own photo album here on the forum. See here for my forum photo album as an example. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/m...89-albums.html

With your photo album, you upload the pics to our forum in your album. The pics can be larger and can be organized into several folders/albums so you can find them more easily. Then you link the pics to any post on the forum. And you can insert the link anywhere in the reply/post. There is no limit on pic's per reply other than making it practical in length. The linking is even a little easier as the software will create a link code for you under each pic in your album if you are viewing that one full-size pic in your album. Then, you copy and paste the link code into your post/reply.

Linking pics is a copy-and-paste task. You have two windows open: your pics in one window, your post/reply in the other. Then, while creating your post, you flip Windows, copy the pic address, and paste it into the post using the postage stamp icon command line, which adds the IMG coding. It is easy if you have ever copied and pasted before.

There is one larger advantage to options 2 and 3 as time goes on. You can find your pics months or years later "easier." When you attach a pic (option 1) the pics stay with the post. You have to find that post to find the pics. With options 2 & 3, let's pick option 3; you go to your forum photo album, find the pic you used 2 or 3 months ago, and link it to other new posts/replies. Technically, you can link attached pics to any post on our forum once you find the post it is in; you have to find the pic first, then right-click your mouse, get the URL address of it, and paste it into the new post.

Like this, I "linked" your "attached" picture of your Chevy tag here:


Hope this helps,

John

[Leslief761]

Thanks so much for being patient enough to further expand on your explanation of uploading photos. It really helped a lot! I just created 3 albums here to document our trailer repairs.

[JohnB]

Hi Leslie,

You are very welcome. Glad to help.

Thanks

John