Two new problems-related?

[PTHutch]

Hi Rich,

I can't expand to much more on JohnB's power converter information.

I used the same Progressive Dynamics that JohnB did, the Progressive Dynamics PD9260C 60Amp power converter/charger.
I did my change out in 2013 on our 2005 Sunline.

I did not remove anything, I just disconnected the power converter and connected the new PD in it's place. I had an American CS6000XL in our 2005 Sunline.
Here's my post on Power Converter/Charger Replacement, if your interested in seeing how I did the change.

I also purchased the Remove Pendant to go with the PD.

I purchased everything on Amazon. I believe when I did it, they had the best price.

Hope this helps.
Tom

[vcrt]

Thanks to you both for much needed help.
I found this online for the PD9260, for $195.95:
https://rvpowerhouse.com/product/pro...mx2RoCCbPw_wcB

Amazon has the PD9260C for $237.09, what does the "C" mean?

Thanks,
Rich

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Thanks to you both for much needed help.
I found this online for the PD9260, for $195.95:
https://rvpowerhouse.com/product/pro...mx2RoCCbPw_wcB

Amazon has the PD9260C for $237.09, what does the "C" mean?

Thanks,
Rich

Rich,

You may need to call RV powerhouse and confirm.

This is "maybe" what is being stated. The 9200 series converter has several options on sizing and input voltage. See this link and scroll to the bottom table for the part numbers. The "C' might be a rev level.
PD9200 Series RV Power Converters

And when you go into the model you are looking at, the PD site says 9260C. There is no straight 9260 with no C
PD9260C 60 Amp RV Power Converter Charger

On the RV power house site, while they call it a 9260 if you look at the "Item number" it calls out: Item #: PD9260CV Have no idea what the V is. https://rvpowerhouse.com/product/pro...mx2RoCCbPw_wcB

Years ago, they offered the PD9260C with and without the charge wizard remote plug in pendant device. While RV powerhouse shows it in the pictures, that may only represent it's an option. The charge wizard circuity is included inside the unit, but the remote pendant is an option as the PD site says this

7. BUILT-IN ACCESSORY PORT – All PD9200 Series Power Converters incorporate an accessory port for the optional Converter Status Remote Pendant which is used to monitor the Charge Wizard operating modes.

Again, you may need to call to find out if it comes with it or not and what is the exact model number you would be getting.

I have used the pendant a few times to force the converter into boost. I also have a voltmeter right above the unit I added so I can tell by the voltage what mode I'm in which is why I needed to press the pendant to send it into boost. This only comes into play when bookdocking for me.

Shipping costs, does one place charge for shipping and the other not? Amazon prime is free shipping if you have that service.

However on the RVP home page in the lower right it did talk about free shipping. It just may be they can offer the converter cheaper. Hopefully it is not a reconditioned one. I have seen some of them being sold in the past.

FYI, Best Converter.com has the PD9260C for $177.00 and it states every converter comes with the pendant in big red lettering 9200 Series Deck Mount

They do charge shipping so it might be a wash or only a few dollars cheaper but I do know they are a stand up company. Amazon sounds high in this case.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Also just saw this on the Best Converter site

Please Read: We have been notified by Progressive Dynamics, Inc. that many PDI converter products are being sold by unauthorized dealers on Amazon and auction type sites without serial numbers and not packaged in the correct boxes. Progressive Dynamics is doing their best to find and stop this since it will naturally void any warranty. You can be assured from us that your PDI converter is packed in the original view pack box, and will have a serial number traceable back to Progressive Dynamics, Inc. If you have any questions, please contact PDI at 269-781-4241 Here is a link to their website and information about these unauthorized products.Service Department for Progressive Dynamics Products

Seems these are a hot item and some places are somehow reselling them.

[vcrt]

Good points John, and thanks for that tip on resellers. I did see one ad for a converter that was remanufactured, I wouldn't want that.
I'll call Progressive Dynamics to ask what the C means and then RV Powerhouse to find out which they are selling.
Rich

[vcrt]

Never did find out what the C meant, but I placed the order for a PD9260C this morning with Best Converter, $191.70 with shipping-best price I've come across.

Yesterday, I put the battery on charge all day and last night, I decide to try the furnace again with the hope that maybe since it wasn't receiving a charge from the dead converter, the slower running fan motor might be the reason the igniter wasn't producing a flame. Same problem, so now it'll be time to dig in to see what might be causing our furnace problem.
I'll post back when I find anything.
Rich

[vcrt]

Looking further into the furnace problem, I'm finding that I can smell some gas outside the camper when I start the furnace, so the gas valve must be opening, but it's going into lockout mode, so it seems there is no spark.

I took off the blower cover and found the sail switch which needs to open in order to enable the gas valve and the igniter to operate and I see nothing like wasp nests or corrosion that would keep it from moving.

I've checked different websites and Youtube videos and although I have an idea where the igniter and the limit switch are, I can't see either of them.
I have looked as far as I can both from the inside and outside of the camper but can't locate them. I'd like to check the presence of current flowing to these two, to determine if maybe they just aren't getting power, but I would like to ask if someone knows exactly where to connect the meter probes to find out?

If I don't have to remove the entire unit I'd prefer not to.

Can anyone tell me how to check these items?

Thanks,
Rich

[mainah]

Well the spark comes from the control board. I doubt the limit has any thing to do with it because it only opens on over heat. The igniter is on the control board it's about an inch around and a fairly heavy wire, there are no serviceable parts on the control board. Control boards are a pretty common failure. It should be fairly obvious it is a printed circuit board with plug in connections it controls every thing and gets all it's signals from things like sail switches and over temp.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Looking further into the furnace problem, I'm finding that I can smell some gas outside the camper when I start the furnace, so the gas valve must be opening, but it's going into lockout mode, so it seems there is no spark.

I took off the blower cover and found the sail switch which needs to open in order to enable the gas valve and the igniter to operate and I see nothing like wasp nests or corrosion that would keep it from moving.

Hi Rich,

I do not know if you have a typo there or a miss understanding. The sail switch need to be "closed" by a high enough volume of air moving to allow the gas valve and the igniter to work.

That said, if you listen real close you can hear the ignition if it is working. Since you smell gas and no ignition, then yes this points to an ignition problem. That ignition coil is on the control board like Mainah was stating. The voltage is very high, it takes 10,000 volts to jump 1 inch as rule of thumb. It is like a spark plug coil on an engine creating the high voltage. This is not a normal volt meter type of measurement. I would not try and measure that voltage with a normal meter. I would listen for spark first after you hear the clunk of the gas valve. You may need to be outside to hear this. I can hear my igniter inside once you know it is working but inside it is buried in the background of the blower noise.

Originally Posted by vcrt

I've checked different websites and Youtube videos and although I have an idea where the igniter and the limit switch are, I can't see either of them.
I have looked as far as I can both from the inside and outside of the camper but can't locate them. I'd like to check the presence of current flowing to these two, to determine if maybe they just aren't getting power, but I would like to ask if someone knows exactly where to connect the meter probes to find out?

If I don't have to remove the entire unit I'd prefer not to.

Can anyone tell me how to check these items?

The high temp limit switch is a normally closed switch. It is a thermal disk switch that when it heats to a certain temp, (190F) it opens. It is in series with the sail switch as part of the safety circuit. If the you smell gas coming out, then the high limit switch is closed and the sail switch is made closed. Both the high limit and the sail switch events are be OK (closed) before the gas valve will open.

And if you are looking for that high temp switch, it is buried deep inside that furnace. You cannot see it from the outside. If you take the furnace all apart, it looks like this


The sail switch is buried inside the fan blower housing. It is even more buried then the high limit switch. The blue and white wire shown here leads to the sail switch inside the blower housing for the inside fan. There are 2 fan blades, one to blow air over the heat chamber and then through the inside of the camper and one for an outside fan to blow the air through the heat chamber and exhaust outside. Both are run by the same motor.


If the you know the gas valve is opening, odds are high the sail switch and the hi limit are good. If you are not sure the gas valve is opening, then you can check for 12 volts at the valve. Just make sure you do not get on the red high voltage ignition coil wire, it is right there next to the gas valve red wires. But I thought you knew the gas was coming out as you smell it and you may have heard the "clunk" when the valve opened. Since the furnace is going into lockout, it is not getting the flame sense signal back.

You cannot see the electrodes either from the outside. It is buried in the furnace. It looks like this.




Have you checked the main power to the furnace? If it is 12.4 VDC or higher, that is enough for sure to run the furnace. If your battery is down low, that can stop the ignition and the gas valve. The book specs says this 10.5 VDC will open the gas valve on a bench test but that that low a voltage will not close the sail switch. I do not know the voltage the blower is below to not have enough power to run the fan fast enough to trip the sail switch. The sail switch is suppose to trip at 75% of the fan speed. I would guess, 12.1 volts may just make it. That is the battery at 50% state of charge. It might work lower, but if your battery is that low, charge it up before you keep troubleshooting this.

The control board on your vintage runs everything short of the thermostat. the black round can with the red wire is the ignition coil.




I guess I'm back to, if you know the gas valve is on, but you have no ignition, this points to the control board assuming the ignition wire is OK and hooked up. OR some how you have a cracked electrode insulation and shorting out OR the ignition wire itself has a problem. That same wire runs the flame sense circuit. With all the power off, you can check the continuity of the ignition coil wire from the coil to the igniter to make sure there is not a break in it. I would call that lower odds of a wire failure and cracked electrode then the control board. The control board I think can come out with the furnace still in the camper.

Hope this helps

John

[vcrt]

John said:
That said, if you listen real close you can hear the ignition if it is working. Since you smell gas and no ignition, then yes this points to an ignition problem. That ignition coil is on the control board like Mainah was stating. The voltage is very high, it takes 10,000 volts to jump 1 inch as rule of thumb. It is like a spark plug coil on an engine creating the high voltage. This is not a normal volt meter type of measurement. I would not try and measure that voltage with a normal meter. I would listen for spark first after you hear the clunk of the gas valve. You may need to be outside to hear this. I can hear my igniter inside once you know it is working but inside it is buried in the background of the blower noise.

See, I depend on you guys to set me straight, because when it comes to electrical stuff, I need all the help I can get.
I've been on the verge of hitching it up and taking it over to the local RV sales and service shop, but I'm sure that's at least a $350.00 bill and quite honestly, I feel I should have a working knowledge of these things. I don't like "mystery" components.

Last night, (of course that was before I saw your photos John,) I poked around and found one thing I was looking for-the electrode.
It's buried behind the gas control valve, but pulling the exhaust tube out of the way gives enough room to access it. The tab that the wire connector pushes onto was badly corroded, so I'm going to replace the electrode. Maybe that's the reason it won't fire up? We'll see.
If it still doesn't work, I think the board will be the next item to replace.
Rich

[mainah]

Yes the air flow closes the sail switch how ever the over temp is closed and only opens on over heat.

[mainah]

Originally Posted by vcrt

John said:
That said, if you listen real close you can hear the ignition if it is working. Since you smell gas and no ignition, then yes this points to an ignition problem. That ignition coil is on the control board like Mainah was stating. The voltage is very high, it takes 10,000 volts to jump 1 inch as rule of thumb. It is like a spark plug coil on an engine creating the high voltage. This is not a normal volt meter type of measurement. I would not try and measure that voltage with a normal meter. I would listen for spark first after you hear the clunk of the gas valve. You may need to be outside to hear this. I can hear my igniter inside once you know it is working but inside it is buried in the background of the blower noise.

See, I depend on you guys to set me straight, because when it comes to electrical stuff, I need all the help I can get.
I've been on the verge of hitching it up and taking it over to the local RV sales and service shop, but I'm sure that's at least a $350.00 bill and quite honestly, I feel I should have a working knowledge of these things. I don't like "mystery" components.

Last night, (of course that was before I saw your photos John,) I poked around and found one thing I was looking for-the electrode.
It's buried behind the gas control valve, but pulling the exhaust tube out of the way gives enough room to access it. The tab that the wire connector pushes onto was badly corroded, so I'm going to replace the electrode. Maybe that's the reason it won't fire up? We'll see.
If it still doesn't work, I think the board will be the next item to replace.
Rich

I would just clean the connection as high as the voltage is it will not make much difference in the spark. I would not mess with the electrodes they are set to a distance and really don't do much they basically a mechanical part.
Ignitor Board Index page just a matter of matching the pictures they are top notch boards.

[vcrt]

The tab was so badly corroded, it broke off when I tried to reconnect the wire, so it needs to be replaced anyway.
Rich

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Snip... and quite honestly, I feel I should have a working knowledge of these things. I don't like "mystery" components.

Last night, (of course that was before I saw your photos John,) I poked around and found one thing I was looking for-the electrode.
It's buried behind the gas control valve, but pulling the exhaust tube out of the way gives enough room to access it. The tab that the wire connector pushes onto was badly corroded, so I'm going to replace the electrode. Maybe that's the reason it won't fire up? We'll see.
If it still doesn't work, I think the board will be the next item to replace.

Hi Rich,

I have always said, "You learn more when things do not work right".... While everything is working great all the time is a good thing, one does not really learn much how they work until the quit... Kind of like when you did a total rebuild on the front of your old camper. You are now extremely keen on looking and preventing water leaks... Me too...

If you found a real bad corroded end on the electrode and as of right now, it has no end on it... well you are going to learn about this...

I agree with Mainah, the high voltage could jump through the corrosion but I do not know if the flame sense circuit can read it's micro amps back through heavy corrosion. That is an unknown.

Question: When you where troubleshooting this, and you smelled the gas, did you hear any at all type of combustion? Even intermittent? Or feel any kind of heat coming out the exhaust?

The thought is, you may be getting a weak spark with the corrosion but you may not be getting the flame sense signal back from the burner burning. The controls use the electrode to send a signal back to the board to know the tip of it is under flame. If that small current signal is not read back, then the board thinks there is no flame and will go into lockout. The "thought" being, if you did ignite some gas and has heat out the exhaust but still lock out, then the flame sense may have been a cause. At this point you are going to prove this is or is not the case by replacing the electrode.

The gap is 1/8" on the electrodes. You really should not have to fiddle with the gap unless something gets bent. The new electrode will go straight in.

Heads up on the gas line connection. I do not think you can change the electrode without pulling the entire gas valve assembly out. The screws are buried in there and then the length of the electrode cannot make it past the gas valve.


The issue is the putting the brass flare nut back onto the gas valve fitting. These pics are out of my prior T2499. The way the copper tubing is routed, it is not very flexible and it can make it a bugger trying to get the fitting to screw on straight. I had to pull the entire furnace so I had to disturb the gas line a lot more then just pulling the gas valve assembly.

Just a heads up, try and not bend the gas line out of the way any more then necessary. The flare nut will spin on easy, once the gas line is straight on with the fitting. Do not force it, and accidentally cross thread it as that will be a new problem... to learn about. I lucked out and got mine to work without cross threading, but is was a bugger... Do a leak check with leak solution on the flare nut when your done.

Good luck and let is know how it goes.

[vcrt]

Getting the electrode out past the gas valve really wasn't a problem once the exhaust tube was out of the way. I did need a rather long nut driver to access the hex screws though.

I called the local RV parts store and they are out of stock on the electrode. There's another place a little further away that I'll check with, or I could just order on line and pay the shipping. But in the meantime, since I'd like to know for sure if that connection was the problem, I was able to mig weld on low voltage, a small piece of sheet metal to the rusted end. I can trim it to the size of the connector and install it to try it out.
If it works, I'll get the new one for reliability.

Thanks,
Rich

[vcrt]

Furnace works!
It was that corroded connection at the electrode. I ordered a new one, should have it tomorrow, but the metal I welded onto the old one did the trick and I thank you all for your help in finally getting this issue resolved.

Also, the converter arrived today and I've partially installed it. I need to get a connector to plug the unit into and then mount the unit (it fits into the same housing as the original which makes wiring easy).
Speaking of wiring, I don't understand why they want the ground wire run seperately to the chassis when they're using a grounded plug, (or why they didn't just have it hard wired like the original) but I'm following their instructions.
Rich

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Furnace works!
...
Speaking of wiring, I don't understand why they want the ground wire run seperately to the chassis when they're using a grounded plug, (or why they didn't just have it hard wired like the original) but I'm following their instructions.
Rich

Rich,

My guess on your wiring question is that there's AC grounding and DC groundings.
The grounded plug is AC grounding the the wired connection is DC grounding.
I believe AC grounding and DC grounding are separate.

JohnB and/or Mainah probably can provide more insight on this.

Congrates on getting the furnace working and you're on your way to getting the power converter back up and working.

[JohnB]

Hi Rich,

Great news on the electrode!! Good for you proving this out. It looks like the flame sense feedback could not make it correctly through that bad of corrosion. Maybe even reduced the high voltage some too. You are for sure learning the furnace now. Another good thing.

On the power converter case ground, I "believe" this is what they are after. I can't quote the chapter or item in the EE code if it is there but here goes.

The 120 VAC line cord has an earth ground in it. That ground is to protect shock hazards on the AC side of things since there is metal in the converter you can touch. It protects you from a shock in case the of a short in the converter.

Now to the case ground going to the camper frame. I am not 100% sure on this, maybe Mainah knows the code ruling, but here goes. Since this is a high current output converter (lots of amps) and the converter case is metal, they ground/bond the metal converter case to the chassis. If the +12 VDC inside the converter ever shorted to the metal case, that metal case becomes hot electrically with a lot of current behind it. If they connect(bond) the metal case to the chassis, then they know the metal case is common with the battery chassis ground on the DC side of things and the converter will then blow it output fuse and or shut down due to over current. I do believe the -12 VDC neg it "not" common to the metal case inside the converter.

Curious on Mainah's opinion on this one.

John

[mainah]

Well there are a couple of reasons if there is a major failure inside the converter it could make all DC grounds hot. It also is powered by 120 volts AC making it an appliance in a metal house (read trailer homes that is why every thing is 4 wire range, dryers etc.) The camper is wired as a sub panel it has a floating neutral unlike your house wiring where both the neutral and the ground are bonded together. There is a good reason for this it is possible to be connected to a outlet that is wired backwards mind you this is "what if" thinking it would be possible to end up with a hot frame, door handle etc. It says in the fine print the ground wire should provide a dead short to earth ground tripping the breaker but if it didn't then you would have a hot camper with you providing the ground. So yes the case needs a frame ground along with any thing metal including the load center. The original converter had a case ground wire there is no reason it can not be used again. In the case of 12 volt wiring it is non lethal so the only risk is fire. The DC grounds and the 120 volt grounds are common to the frame work.

[vcrt]

Thanks Tom, John and Mainah.
I just got off the phone with a tech guy at Progressive Dynamics to ask a few Q's I had. One of them was about the plug vs. hard wire. When I asked him that, he asked why I didn't get the converter that was meant to be used as a replacement for the old one instead of a stand alone model. He asked what amps the old one was, I said 55 amp. The PD unit is 60 amp so it's close, but the replacement unit would be hard wired in, no plug. I told him I wasn't even aware they made such a thing. He said which type I use is up to me, just make sure to allow adequate space around the cooling fan (I'm mounting it in the old WFCO housing where there is about 2" on each side and about 1-1/2" above and I'm placing it with the heat sink towards the vent on front cover which means the fan will be up front and to the right side of the heat sink).

Also, he said use the ground wire in the 12 AWG Romex I'm using to the female connector for the plug, but also run a separate ground wire from the converter chassis to the trailer chassis. I said the ground bar in the WFCO housing should be grounded to the chassis, he agreed, so I'll wire both grounds to this bar. Sound right to you guys?
Thanks,
Rich