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Old 07-05-2013, 01:58 PM   #1
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T2499 or T2753 WTB

Looking in the greater Philadelphia area for a CLEAN T-2499 or T-2753. Must be clean and free of any leaks or major defects. Actually I think I found the 2499 here on the site, but would really like to compare with a 2753.


Any comments on the comparison of these units from personal experience would be appreciated.

Thanks!!
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:00 AM   #2
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Hi Joe,

I saw your comments on the other thread about the frames on the T2499. Being a fellow Sunline Club Member here is the situation so you know what to look for and what not to fear of getting the Sunline of your dreams. This is not the official story from the factory but what we have found out along the way. It is also raining out and I had some time to type...

Starting with the 2005 model year 7,000# GVWR framed Sunline's, they redesigned the main frame rails and the A frame. The main frame rails went from the prior 5" C Channel to a 6" wide I shape frame rails. This was a good move as the wider (taller) main frame rail is technically a stronger member and maybe be slightly lighter due to the thinness. I have yet to find an RV I shape frame rail in an industrial steel catalog. It must be made special, and maybe only made the RV industry. So far the only reason I can put together on why they changed the frame redesign is to try and make the camper lighter and possible better as I shape main frame rails were already widely used in the RV industry and on Sunline larger campers.

In dong this they also changed the A frame. That too in the prior generation 7,000# GVWR frames was a 5" C Channel and they now changed that to a 4" C Channel. Sunline had used 4" C Channel before on the smaller campers and some 7,000# model and we know of no real large problems with them.

The T-2499 was introduced in the 2003 Model year. The 2003 and 2004 units were built on the 5" C channel main frame rails and the A Frame. This floor plan is unique and a good/popular one. We had a 2004 T-2499 and loved it. In fact the T310SR we have now is the same floor plan just with a super slide and free standing table and chairs. The rear living floor plan in most any brand camper has this certain attribute, heavy tongue weight. I check this often agasint other brands and only recently have I seen some change the wheel locations to change the balance of the camper. The is not much weight in the back to offset all the storage forward of the axles. A swivel rocker and a pretty picture window do not do much for offsetting high TW.

The T-2499 starts with a 795# dry unloaded tongue weight on an approx 4,785# dry GVW pending what options you get with it. Doing the math, that means this floor plan is starting with a 16.6% dry tongue weight. This camper tows stable, very stable with that high TW. And due to the floor plan the TW can go up quickly to what is considered high for such a small camper. Mine was 1,200# and no fresh water. It went to just under 1,400# if I filled the fresh tank with water which I could not tow down the highway with my K2500 Suburban. We are now in and over the 20% loaded tongue weight range. I was able to put 300# of cargo in the large front cargo hole and this does not count what is in the front bed room under the bed and closets.

While I may have had more "stuff" then some.. several other SOC's members had 1,100 to 1,200# loaded TW T2499's. We only had 1 member with a 800# loaded TW as he never had much of anything in the front bedroom or cargo hole. He put those things in the PU truck bed that most had in the front cargo hole. Again we all camp different. Be expecting a 1,000# loaded TW and no fresh water as an average and expected TW for this floor plan.

Here is where the problem came in. The 4" C Channel A frame that Sunline used widely in the past coupled with the method it entered the frame header was very much aggravated by this high TW. Even if you were in the 800# range given the right circumstances it could be a problem. The frame header method and A Frame was/still is also widely used across the RV industry. I have many pics of other brands using the same header design. It was the way the RV industry use to make A frame headers.

Now the actual problem. Due to the higher loaded TW and using a WD hitch, the 4" channel will flex a considerable amount when you go around a turn and it will flex more if the truck and camper are going around that turn where the road is uneven and at an angle to each other. Sort of like coming out of a high up driveway, going in and out of CG's etc. When this turning effect happens, 1 WD bar is taking all the load and the other WD bar is not taking much. So you are pulling real hard on one side of the A Frame and not much on the other creating a very uneven load on the A frame. This effect happens on all TT's regardless of brand or weight. But... there is always a but... The A frame twist and the A frame header have to be able to absorb these forces and not permanently deform.

Channel Iron is made to be very strong in carrying weight along it's main axis as a beam. (along the width of the channel) It is not that it is not strong, however channel iron does not have as much torsional resistance (twisting ) as compared to other structural shapes. In the lighter sizes, channel iron can twist very easy compared to the WD forces imposed on it. 3" to 4" wide channel can twist pretty easy in realtion to the load it can handle in bending. It is thinner and does not have much twist resistance. When you jump to 5" or 6" channel the twist resistance is a lot higher agasint the forces of WD hitch on a camper. The 5" A frame of the 2003/2004 models where like a rock against the WD forces. And my 6" C channel beast on the T310SR ain't moving is realtion to the WD forces trying to twist it. Now granted the 5 & 6" will twist if the load is high enough, just there are not WD hitches and loaded TW's on campers normally in this area.

With the high TW's on the T2499, the 4" channel will start to twist, then the frame header has to absorb the twist and not buckle.(pop out) Again Sunline like many other RV brands used to run the A frame rail out the bottom of the header. A high twisting A frame rail and a low anti buckle header design do not work well with each other. The existing header design would buckle in the center from the twisting A frame rails. And this is what broke several 2005 up to early 2007 A frames. Along the way Sunline had to have realized this as the header started to have tweaks to it to help stop the buckling. The early attempts did not solve the problem. By mid year of the 2007 models they ran the A frame rails through the center of the header, added some support plates and stalled out the problem.

If and when you go looking at a T2499, if it has the 4" channel A frame, get down and look along the length of the header. If there is a slight bend in the center area of the header towards the front of the camper, the problem has started. A slight bend is the start of the problem and when it can be fixed very easy or at least less cost. In the more advanced stages the small angles that create the battery tray will be bowed out and bent as they are trying to suppress the the twisting and can't.

I myself knowing the problem and the fix, would not let it stop me from buying the T2499 of my dreams. I would however go in eyes wide open, if it is a dealer, and it is bent, point it out to them and get it fixed. Odds are high the dealer has no idea of this issue. If you buy one at a dealer or private sale and it is not bent, as soon a you get it is the time to add the reinforcement along the bottom to stop the twisting of the header.

I'll also pass along, heads up, be prepared to handle the 1,000# or plus loaded TW on a T2499. Do not know what TV you have however any 3/4 ton suspension vehicle, SUV, VAN or PU are OK unless you have very high bed/cargo weight in the truck. OR a higher end 1/2 ton PU truck without a lot of bed weight in it. A 1/2 ton SUV/van or smaller is going to have a harder time trying to stay within the ratings of the rear axle of the truck. Even if you pack super light, the camper is 800# empty on the TW.

Also to note, any of the 2005 to mid year 2007 , 7,000# GVWR campers have the same frame. The difference is the loaded TW. We have had a few SOC members in non T2499's have the header issue. The issue is just not as common as the loaded TW's are not as high. But again we all camp different. And as Mr. & Mrs. Tweety did, they added the reinforcement and moved on to not have to worry about it on their T-2753.

The 2004 to 2007's have more upgrades in the actual camper. Not that the 2003 and before as not great, they are! In the 2004 model year we started to see some upgrades, larger fresh water tanks, lager cargo hole doors, a disconnect switch on the battery, in later 2004 model better converters came, the Shub shower screen, the newer Atwood HW heater controls upgrade. Different cabinet cabinet door faces, junction boxes on the header frame for the battery and DC wiring to name a few.

All are great campers and the Solaris line are all built on the same quality and amenities, just the floor plan is different. The Ultra leather option is a special and most likely not many out there.

Hope this helps and good luck in the search for the Sunline of your dreams. Don't be afraid to drive to see one. Between the age of significant pics and SOC, you can see and know a lot before you ever leave home. I drove over 1,000 miles round trip for our Sunline we now have. And I'm not the record holder in distance to get your Sunline...

John
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:31 PM   #3
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Our current trailer floorplan is basically an expanded version of the 2499. We have the big slide in the living room. Our previous trailer was a 2753. The 2499 & 2753 bedrooms and bath are the same, so you're really only looking at a difference in the living area. Having recently been in a 2499 living area of a friend, it's really nice but felt alot smaller than our 2753 living area. I think its nice to have the separate dinette.

So IMO pluses for the 2753 are:
Larger living area with separate dinette
More kitchen counter space
View out the front and side so you're looking at your campsite and campground

Pluses of 2499:
Big back window if the back of your site views a lake or mountains
Shorter length for travel and fitting in smaller campsites
Has a pantry

If we wanted to go back to a Sunline and had to chose between one of those 2 I'm not sure which I'd chose.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:11 PM   #4
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Thanks a lot guys. I had my eyes on a 2006 - 2499 and had an appointment to go see it. The night before the appointment, everything was a go, then I asked about the frame issue and was told the next morning the trailer had sold.

I have had no luck finding a 2753 after scouring the internet, and even then they may be more than I intend to spend right now. I have an appointment Monday (with a forum member) to go look at a T2499 that has been towed less than 100 miles. The owners parked it at a campsite and use it during the summer, and cover it up in the winter.) The pictures look like it's brand new.


Since they never towed it they aren't aware of the frame issue, so I'll check it good, but I doubt it has an issue. I can fabricate and weld, so I'll brace it up.

It's just two of us doing 2 or 3 days of camping at a time, and State Parks at that, so I think the 2499 may be perfect. Actually went and looked at an 03, and liked the layout, but we want newer.

One of the things I want to do is make a platform on the back and tote my Generator and a cooler back there. I built a fancier version of this for my 2 EU2000's on my Fifth Wheel and it worked great. I'm hoping there's enough frame under there to attach to and there is enough clearance for a simple rack. One advantage may be I'll add to the overall weight, but take some off the tongue.

Looked like this, but of course I'm thinking of a much smaller version, kinda like the deer racks that go in a receiver hitch.


Thanks!








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Old 07-06-2013, 03:18 PM   #5
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Oh, we still have the same TV. 2004 2500HD Crew cab 4 x 4 shortbed Duramax.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #6
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For 2-3 day trips and state parks I'd definitely chose the 2499 over a 2753. The shorter length will be big advantage. I'd probably even go smaller to my all time favorite short trip unit - the 2363...but you didnt ask about that one
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:06 PM   #7
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I looked at that one on paper, but we wanted an island bed if possible. Then when we found a model with a walkthrough bath, we really liked that.

Does anyone know the bolt pattern of a Sunline hub?
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:33 PM   #8
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Hi Joe

Is this your handy work? or did you have a buddy do this? I'll dig up some pics that I think can help your quest.

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Old 07-06-2013, 06:16 PM   #9
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I designed and cut it. Needed help with the Tig welding and Plasma cuts. I have my own Plasma cutter now. I saw some pics from Every Mile's A Memory and he did it to his 2499. I would just like a double receiver hitch setup and an expanded metal rack like they sell for the back of a pickup. In fact, that rack is store bought, we just made it a double set-up. The center receiver bar is still on it. The double receiver stops most of the vibration.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:20 PM   #10
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I did the rear boxes on my T-2499, and my T310SR. For the T-2499, Sunline was still in business then and I wanted to make sure I was not going to void my warranty. Normally a camper manufacture will not allow anything like this, however Sunline was different. I submitted my plans and calculations before doing this. They thanked me and I remembering him saying, no one ever asks....they just go do it.

In my case it was about TW reduction and specific to this floor plan. It was not that I wanted to carry more stuff, but to rearrange what I had to lower the TW. My K2500 Suburban could only handle 1,200# and the camper was only a little over 6,100# loaded. So I could not ever get close to the 7,000# GVWR. In my case I was sitting on 20% TW so moving gear around to get down to 15% loaded was the goal.

Here is how I approached this. For those following along this will not work on all floor plans and can have very negative effects on the wrong floor plan as it will unload tongue weight and affect the balance of the camper which can cause trailer sway.

I used 1/4 x 3 x 3 angle as the main frame, removed the main bumper and moved it out to the end. The frame extension has to be solid into the main frame rails. I'll let the pics do the talking,
















I added extra tail lights outside and inside




I have a clean box for outside cooking gear


And a dirty one for leveling blocks and chocks


All this gear was in the front cargo hole, and there was still some bigger bulky items left. The spare tire had to go up front in the cargo hole

Those boxes fit a S10 PU. This dropped my tongue weight enough that I could now carry fresh water to camp and be in the 16% TW range.

Your Chevy 2500HD will do very well with either of the campers you are looking at. Just be careful on using 1,200# WD bars on that A frame until you get it reinforced.

The tires one that camper are 5 lug rims, using ST20575R15's C load range. They are 3,500# axles. I "think: they are on a 4.5 bolt circle. Need to confirm the bolt circle. Odds are high they are 4.5 but they do make a 5 on 5" BC and a 5 on 5.5" which might be an odd ball.

Hope this helps

John

PS I have more if needed/wanted
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #11
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Perfect! You just saved me a boatload of work. So the whole add on is angle and it appears to be bolted to the frame? Is that the newer style I-beam frame that I can expect to find on the 2006 I'm looking at? Is that a bike carrier I see on the ground and where did that go?

Love it

Thanks John.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveORacing View Post
Perfect! You just saved me a boatload of work. So the whole add on is angle and it appears to be bolted to the frame?
Yes, sorry the pic was not so good. See here on the T310SR. 1/2" grade 8 on a staggered pattern, on purpose.


Quote:
Is that the newer style I-beam frame that I can expect to find on the 2006 I'm looking at?
My T-2499 was a 2004 and as such it was 5" channel. The 3" angle leg fit in the center of the channel.

The pic above on the T310SR is I shape steel but it is 10" web in place of 6", Bigger camper so bigger frame. Here you can see the same boxes/frame on the T310SR, which is still a rear living camper and the same problem. When completely loaded I have a 1,600# loaded TW on just under 10,000# or 16%. Without the boxes it would be even higher. Thus the 1 ton truck.


Quote:
Is that a bike carrier I see on the ground and where did that go?
The bikes... that is a topic in itself.... When I had the T-2499 they went in a front mounted receiver on the 2500 Burb. That was an ordeal to modify the rack to get the head lights to work and the turn signals. After I sold the Burb and went to a PU, I took that same bike rack and parked on the T310SR A frame. See here: TT A Frame Mounted Bike Rack With Pic's T-310SR

However in your case that might not be a good thing. Do you have a tono cover and does it cover the bed rails? PTHutch created a bed mount on his 2500HD as his tono did not cover the bed rails. He has some pic in that link. Mine I have a tilt cover tono and it covers the rails. I also have a 6" channel A frame to start with.

Good luck on your Sunline search.

John
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:39 PM   #13
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Just thought of this, these 2 posts may help you.

This one is actual loaded TW's of various Sunlines. At Meet and Greets I offer camper TW weighing and it helps the owner and others.
Sunline Camper Actual Loaded Tongue/Pin Weights

And if you are going T-2499, here I did the math for you. This will help you sort out where camping gear is loaded and how it affect TW.
Travel Trailer Tongue Weight Aid - T2499

John
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #14
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When looking up the NADA values, do I just select the model and click go, or do I add options? I heard that the standard equipment is included already and only real "options" need be added. Most of these Sunlines are all standard equipment?

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Old 07-07-2013, 06:41 PM   #15
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click and go.....most everything is standard on Sunlines...........
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:25 PM   #16
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click and go.....most everything is standard on Sunlines...........

That's what I thought. Thanks.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:34 PM   #17
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Have you considered a 2653? IMHO it gives the best bang for the buck, so to speak..tons more kitchen and LR storage than either of the other two and you can't beat it for clothing space -one very large wardrobe in the hall with two large drawers beneath plus two shirt closets (we put shelves in those) . Not sure about the 2499 but I bet Pam will second me on the clothing /storage options on the 2753--- only has shirt closets. Janalee
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
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When looking up the NADA values, do I just select the model and click go, or do I add options? I heard that the standard equipment is included already and only real "options" need be added. Most of these Sunlines are all standard equipment?

Joe
Correct. The Solaris had a lot of options as standard as compared to other brands

Real options that a dealer normally would order are:

Spare tire and mount
Scissors stabilizers

Yes, that is all they normally ordered as most everything else comes as standard. And they provided what Sunline called Special Standard Features as part of the Solaris package.

But there are other real options and you would have to know the actual build sheet to see them.

This is a 2004 spec sheet on what was standard and what was an option. A 2006 is not a lot different. The Ultra leather option is for sure an option if you find one.


Good luck and hope this helps.

John
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:19 PM   #19
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Okay, we purchased a 2006 T-2499. Considered the 2753, but never found one to look at close enough and really didn't need the extra cost or length anyway. Really like the rear living room layout. We bought Chuck and Joy's trailer (SOC) and it is spotless! Looks brand new.

The plans and pictures of the rear cargo carrier are going to be invaluable. Thanks again John B. The unit I bought is the one with 100 miles on it.

There was no evidence of anything bent up front, so I need to find that thread again and brace up that area too.

Pick it up on Saturday.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #20
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Congrats Joe....Leo and I had a 2499 and loved it.....we just needed to make our life easier with kyacks, motorcylces, toys....so we upgraded to a toyhauler. Otherwise we'd still have our Sunny!

May you have many years of happiness in your new to you Sunline!
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