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Old 06-28-2017, 08:35 PM   #1
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2001 Advancer 21A Floor Framing question..

I am working on a new to us Advancer that has some serious damage from water infiltration on the door side front corner. Both front corners are suspect but the door side it was pouring in and absolutely soaked.
We have pulled out all the vinyl flooring except under the bed and that is going out as soon as I can get to it. The bed is loaded chair and jackknife couch etc..
My main question is if anyone has any pictures or Sunline promo materials or drawings of the floor framing?
I am a mechanical designer by trade so I make drawings every day but RV construction is a whole different animal!
Just inside the door there seems to be very little in the way of frame and it currently appears that the only structure is the thin lauan plywood on top of the metal frame. Just not certain if wood framing has given way or if the plywood was meant to spank the gaps?
Thanks in advance I have already learned a lot just reading about other people's experience.

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Old 06-29-2017, 09:02 AM   #2
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This isn't a Sunline I don't believe but would anyone have similar or pictures of a typical frame?https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...op-campers.jpg
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:14 PM   #3
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Isn't the Advancer the one made with aluminum? Not sure if the floor joists are aluminum or not.

Either way the floor wouldn't be luan.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:17 PM   #4
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Advancer is the one narrower in front than in back 8' at back down to 7'6" in front.. and it is definitely luaun..appears to be ply-foam-ply sandwich..sort of a SIP.

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Old 06-29-2017, 08:49 PM   #5
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2001 Advancer 21A Floor Framing question..

I'm no expert but the whole floor can't be sitting there with no joist's anywhere.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:50 PM   #6
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The steel frame is there but I don't see any further framing...

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Old 06-29-2017, 10:11 PM   #7
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Hi,

Pending the year, the older late 90's Advancer's had wood floor joists. But it seems come year 2000 they had aluminum. I'm assuming by your description you have the aluminum.

This thread may help. replacing floor in our 2000 sunline advancer

While not the Advancer, the que, it too had the aluminum frame work. He has 5 videos. Have to deal with the adds but goo video
Replacing the floor on my Que

It appears the foam board insulation creates support for the thin laun. See this pic out of the brochure



The 2001 Advancer brochure is here. You have to be logged in to get it. Go to 2001 Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Sunline Brochures

It says the 2001 has aluminium framed floors and walls. The floor has double aluminum framing. Do not know what that exactly means, never saw one of these up close.

Steve59 may be able to help as he went through this on his 2000 Advancer.

You said the corners look compromised, check the roof front seam from the rubber to the siding. That is a classic leak area that leaks down the corners and into the floor where it cannot get out.

And you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draughty View Post
I am a mechanical designer by trade so I make drawings every day but RV construction is a whole different animal!
Welcome!! I just retired after 37 years in that trade. Yes, RV's are very different then most builds. They are after light weight, lost cost and they have to deal with towing down the road. The design life is limited... not like what we are used to. However, Sunline is one of the better builds in most cases. We have a lot to show and tell help on the non aluminum campers which Sunline blended the stick and tin campers into the aluminum framed ones.

If you can, take pics and post of your repair process. We do not have many folks doing rebuilds on the aluminum framed ones and your pics can help others in the future and help you as we can see what you are up against.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:30 AM   #8
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John this helps immensely!
Any information from those that have been through it will be making a difference for me. I am hoping other Advancer owners will chime in and we can get a more complete 'picture' of the way these were built.
I will need to go back under the trailer, I have had it about a week and it has been raining almost the whole time here in Northern Ontario. This has let me find and isolate the largest offender which is the door side top corner. I used Tuck Tape, and a large garbage bag with a bag of cedar mulch as a sandbag weight to seal that off until I could get the actual repair done. That has sealed that area very well even if it looks a little redneck.. LOL.
I have the repair tape in hand but purchased a 25 foot roll of 5" wide and am headed back to the local shop to buy another as I believe I am going to use the tape on the entire perimeter of the roof where it meets the sides.
I am at work so I don't have pictures and I have to figure out how to post them directly anyway!
I am taking pictures as I go and it ain't pretty yet! When I was under the trailer there was surface rust on the visible framing so that isn't aluminum so I am looking for aluminum structure this weekend. I would find aluminum a bonus as the fab/OEM shop I work at has a specialty of aluminum with drop-off/scrap pieces and certified aluminum welders I can get help from!
I think the main bad area of floor is about 5x5 on the heaviest traveled area. Door to Fridge to Kitchen sink.. I have some 1/8 AL sheet I am going to use as one side of the new SIP's I will glue up in order to really stiffen that up and I think I will add some wood framing to the mix..or some AL tubing not sure yet.. depends on the amount I need and where.
All in all I am having fun learning this one and the process is moving along. My one rant is the stupid linoleum flooring! I hate carpet but at least it breathes and lets the moisture out. The wicking/capillary/surface tension action of the water under the linoleum made every bit of flooring under that stuff very wet if not soaked.. arrrrrrgh!
More as I work and I will post info as I come across it.
The info you linked has also been very helpful!
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:05 PM   #9
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Hi,

Posting pics to the forum. There are 2 ways. Upload direct or link them in from a photo server.

See here for the upload direct. Forums 101 - posting, accounts, basics

You can link from a photo server using the IMG commands. See here How to post a picture on SunlineClub

A mix up on words on what is aluminum. The actual camper frame that is holding the wheels and ball coupler is steel. Sitting on top of that steel frame is the camper floor and walls. The camper floor and walls are most likely aluminium joists and wall studs.

The roof structure may still be a wood sill plate on top of the wall stud frame and then wood rafters. Many manufactures back in the day yours was made still used wood on the roof as it can accept screws easy and they had perfected how to do the roof in wood rather then create all new with aluminum.

While you are up on the roof sealing up leaks, feel the rubber. The Sunline rubber roof uses a heavy corrugate sheet (1/16" thk) that they glue a 0.040" rubber membrane to. They lay that over wood rafters spaced approx 16" on center. There is give and some sag of the rubber roof between the rafters but it will feel a level of stiff.

Do not walk on the roof directly you have to use a tarp to protect the rubber and then use small sheets of plywood (3/8" to 1/2") in about 2ft x 4ft and lay them across the rafters to spread the load. Then you can walk on the roof if there are no rotted rafters... See here for more on the caulk and walk on procedure. Rubber Roof Caulk - Inspect and repair 101

Feel the rubber surface. If you find a spot of a rubber band feeling, just like a old tire tube blown up, then that is a wet spot under the rubber. The glue has separated and the budboard is gone from the leak. The water wicks across the bud board from the areas it was water infected. Odds are high, a leak may have come from the roof and ran down into the floor and under the floor. Look under the camper. There may be a black plastic membrane. We call that Darco after the trade name of the plastic. It is a waterproof membrane to keep road water from flying up and onto the floor insulation. Once water comes down from the roof, gravity carries it as far as it can go and the Darco strops if from getting out. It trapped inside then = bad news.

This may help. A moisture meter. It can see through the walls, the ceiling, the floor from the inside and from the Darco outside looking up for trapped moisture behind the walls, floors ceilings etc. It has limitations as metal will trip it. It will see a copper wire in the wall and you get a high blip, it will see an aluminum stud and see a high reading blip, but those are blips, when walls and floors get wet, they are not blips they are large areas so you need to use it as a tool to help see how far the wet has gone. See here Moisture Meters For Inspecting a Camper

And on the roof structure, these 2 posts may help. Not meant to scare you... just help show what is under the roof and how the Sunline rubber roof is built.

This is a roof rebuild on my son's camper A Winter Project - Roof Repair (Picture heavy)

And this one I just started. It shows the moisture meter in action and what real bad caulk looks like. Most all of this started as a roof leak and then took out the rear wall and the floor. The front roof seam can do the same thing, we have other club folks go through this too.
2004 T1950 Restoration Project - (Ugly Picture Heavy)

Hope this helps. Keep asking away, we are here to help as we can.

John
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:57 AM   #10
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Hello Draughtry and welcome to the Sunline Group.I brought the topic back up so you can see what you will be getting into.John B is the person that helped us get thur our project.We really liked our Advancer but the farther i got into the repairs the more water damage i found..! will try and answer any questions you may have...........steve
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
Hello Draughtry and welcome to the Sunline Group.I brought the topic back up so you can see what you will be getting into.John B is the person that helped us get thur our project.We really liked our Advancer but the farther i got into the repairs the more water damage i found..! will try and answer any questions you may have...........steve
Extremely helpful!
I am just heading out to start ripping up some flooring.
The vinyl hid the moisture and increases the damage didn't it?
I am not doing a full tear out and restore right now.
What I am doing is to fix as much as I can now and then do the remainder as I can.
Most important is getting it watertight for now so looking at sealing those problematic roof seams.
Is it wrong to use a high quality silicone outdoor caulk on the hatch doors or around exterior lights etc???

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Old 07-01-2017, 11:14 AM   #12
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I am now working on the floor and happy to note that things are drying up nicely. Not the weather it is raining again! LOL...
I found aluminum framing in the floor so you were correct John B. ..
See how much I can accomplish this afternoon.

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Old 07-01-2017, 01:35 PM   #13
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We thought that we only had a soft spot by the sink but once we started taking out the flooring it was a lot worse than what we were expecting.It was rotted in both directions so we repalced the floor from the front window all the way to the wall by the stove.We also had to replace the wall in front of the front window.We also pulled out the 2 side windows just to rechalk them and then found out all the wood framing on both sides were also rotted out which caused the front siding to pull apart on both sides in the front and used white gorilla tape down the front corners to hold the vinyl siding together.I would use Dicro caulk not silicone
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Old 07-01-2017, 01:46 PM   #14
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Thanks I have been wondering if there is much difference between the EPDM brands that are EV specific and the really high quality name brand high performance exterior sealing caulks?
If anyone has some information showing the real differences I would be very interested!
I do have some self leveling Dicor caulk and am using that especially on the roof.


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Old 07-01-2017, 01:49 PM   #15
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This is the hatch that is leaking just slightly hopefully you can see the stream running off the upper edge.
Is there a seal that is supposed to be on the top of those screws?
The previous owner did a repair that I will replace and improve so I am looking for the proper materials to seal this door and it's frame.

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Old 07-01-2017, 02:33 PM   #16
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Okay..the soft spot was where the floor panel gave way between the door and the fridge or couch.
This may become a different repair than I expected..

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Old 07-01-2017, 02:44 PM   #17
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Hi,

Silicone is not a really good option on the siding or roof sealing. They make Dicor in both self leveling and non leveling. I have used the non-leveling on vertical items with good success. It bonds to fiberglass, aluminum, rubber and wood. It does take some getting use to on how to apply it. But you must clean the surface very well. It does not stick well to dirt and grime.

See this post for the latest method on how to apply and not make a mess in the process. Dicor Questions

The issue with silicone is, while it will stick the moment you use it, it is not long lasting and it creates issues ever trying to get it off to use the right stuff. It is so slippery that the only thing that can stick to it is more silicone. Over time the silicone separates from the 2 surfaces most likely from UV sun and road vibration.

The Dicor can handle the vibration and the UV. And to get Dicor off, using a heat gun, warm it and scrape. Then once all scraped the best you can, use mineral spirits on a rag and rub. Then to get the oily film from the mineral spirits off use a high flash cleaner like denatured alcohol, lacquer thinner or even home rubbing alcohol. On the roof do not let the cleaner soak in, keep moving as the mineral spirits soaking in affects the rubber if you let it puddle and sit.

The cargo hole has a seal from the siding to the flange of the cargo hole door. They originally used putty tape. Convert to butyl tape in place of the putty tape as it lasts longer without cracking and separating. This is the primary seal. Then if you want a secondary seal you can use the non leveling Dicor over the exposed edge of the butyl.

The screw heads, yes there is a vinyl strip that goes in the channel of the cargo hole door unit to cover over the screws. It is not really a water seal but can act like one to keep water off the screws. It will not fix a leaking flange. In the gutter rails up on the roof, they use that vinyl strip and it can create big issues with water getting trapped behind it. It then rots the screws and wicks into the roof area. On the doors, or cargo holes, basically vertical or horizontal surfaces and not in the gutter rail, you can use the vinyl cover to make it look better. Here is one maker of the trim . Camco https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=1W7N1NDH2XVHB

If you want a fast fix, tape it with white gorilla tape. It will hold a few months. Again clean it well. Long term, you need to pull out the cargo hole door, scrape off all the old putty tape, clean it up and put new fresh butyl in and that will seal the flange to the camper and the screws.

We have a lot of pics of repairing leaking window, doors, cargo holes etc flanges. Let us know if you need more

John
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:53 PM   #18
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Thanks John I was wondering what the issue with Silicone was and you explained it well.
Sorry to ask so many questions but hoping that the 'bottom' such thing as a dumb question rule' applies here, and it appears it does!
I am hoping my experience helps someone else and out mechanical design experience tends to help you and I explain things as that is what our careers are all about, communicating how to build or fabricate or use something.
Maybe I'm crazy but I enjoy the problem solving this involves.
Looking at the aluminum framing in the floor I think I am going to need to add angle to bottom edges to provide a sill for new ply and foam panels to sit upon.
Nice to have a scrap bin I can salvage some from!
More as I proceed!
Thanks again for all the support gang!

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Old 07-01-2017, 04:15 PM   #19
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Okay so there is the double aluminum framing answer! Two pieces of 3/4 x 1-1/2 aluminum tubing used to o span between frame members!
Down to the Darco in the area needing replacement.
Looking for some angle scraps I can scab onto that aluminum frame.
Just had a thought that it might be a good idea to core some vent holes in the corners of the trailer to allow any moisture to evaporate instead of sitting in there? Something like those ports we hole saw into our desktops to run cables through? Drilling right through and adding a tube of some sort in the Darco as a drain?? Hmm....

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Old 07-01-2017, 04:45 PM   #20
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This pic really helps explain some on how Sunline made your floor. And maybe even your walls.



Tell me if I have this right. We too are learning with you

Floor make up:
  1. 1/8" luan plywood on the very bottom.
  2. Then 3/4" x 1 1/2" aluminium tube.
  3. 1 1/2" Foam board insulation in the open spaces
  4. 1/8" luan plywood on the very top.

If I got that right, then they glued/bonded with some adhesive to the bottom and top luan to the floor joists before they ever put the floor on the camper. They made one large sub assembly and then placed it over the frame and started assembling the camper on top. (they build the wood floors like this too) The "glue" or adhesive was a big part in creating the strength of the floor. Once that glue is compromised there is not as much strength left as 1/8" luan as a walking surface does not hold much load unsupported. I'm surprised you do not step through it.

To your let the water out holes, the idea has merit but there are issues to overcome to never have water get in from the same holes. The water would seem to be comeing down from above. The roof or a window frame, cargo door etc. Preventing the leak is the key need. While you can let the water out down at the bottom if you overcome that, there is still damage from the leak up higher. Granted the leak spread may be less after the fact at the floor line which is a good thing. But this comes back to, how to make a bullet proof opening in the bottom cover to let wet out but not in and can live in the conditions the RV is exposed to. A tough nut to crack for sure.

Your doing great by the way. Keep up the good work.

John
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