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Old 04-26-2014, 09:54 PM   #1
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Water Damage by the Door

Like I didn't have enough projects going with the camper right now...I find this!

I have no idea where the water intrusion came from or when. I just can't believe I (and my father-in-law) would have missed a soft spot like this when I purchased it a few weeks ago. I swear I pressed on and inspected every square inch of floor and wall space in that thing. Maybe I missed it or maybe it just happened and the floor just hadn't softened up yet.

I took up a section of the vinyl flooring and was able to make this hole with my hand. Fortunately, the insulation was not very wet underneath and the framing is sound. So it the wall and sill plate...again thank goodness. It doesn't extend under the cabinet more than an inch or so and just in the corner. Not enough to justify removing that cabinet (major project to get it out).I've removed the vinyl in inside the cabinet and it doesn't extend far and I have access to treat it. The central wet area is where the hole is.
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Old 04-26-2014, 09:57 PM   #2
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Here are a couple shots of the area. The water pump is in this cabinet to the right of the sink. No damage that I can see near there. There is ever so slight puckering of the wall paper below the window and on the left side of the cabinet where it meets the wall. But everything feels solid. I know water takes strange paths sometimes, but I don't think the window could be the source in this instance. There should be other signs between the window and the hole...right?

Framing inside the door is perfect. No water signs there. Fabric under the camper is all in tact with no issues either. Roof caulking looks ok in this area as well. I was able to sneak my hand behind the siding by the door and the insulation is dry.

Did the PO spill something? Was the door left open? Any ideas what caused this?

The bad floor is removed. I took out the insulation for good measure. It's easy to replace and will help things dry really well.

My plan is to order some Rot Dr. and treat the area. Patch the floor and seam in a new piece of vinyl flooring. It will be next weekend before I can get it treated with the Rot Dr Epoxy so I have some time to locate the cause (if it can be located).

Suggestions welcome.
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:38 PM   #3
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IMHO If the insulation was wet that's more than something spilt. Wrinkled paper under window? I would be checking around window with moisture meter then soak it with a hose and check again. if the butyl under corners was bad water why not around window? water is sneaky a small drip from water pump can walk a mile before detected
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Old 04-27-2014, 09:16 PM   #4
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IMHO If the insulation was wet that's more than something spilt.
I would tend to agree. The insulation wasn't "soaked" some of it was damp, but not much.

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Wrinkled paper under window? I would be checking around window with moisture meter then soak it with a hose and check again. if the butyl under corners was bad water why not around window?
Good advice. I'll try that. I might pull the window anyway, just to rule it out. The reason the window doesn't seem plausible is: 1. the tape around the window doesn't look bad at all (of course that doesn't mean it isn't). 2. There is no wet insulation in the wall and floor gets dryer between the window and the saturated area.

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water is sneaky a small drip from water pump can walk a mile before detected
Sneaky indeed. The water pump has my suspicions a bit more than the window. It could have run along the wall and snuck under the flooring at the door. Nothing is ruled out. Everyone is a suspect!

The PO de-winterized and filled the water tank just before I went to look at it so I could see everything working. I just wonder if something "happened" in that process that he failed to reveal. I suspect it was recent. I think there would have been more saturation of the insulation and more mold and gross stuff under the OSB if it was a long term issue. The framing under the floor is absolutely fine. Nothing soft in them whatsoever. Same with the wall sill plate. It's a mystery for now....
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:36 PM   #5
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Scott,

This one is being sneaky for sure.

I'll throw out a thought, the gravity fill port to fill the fresh tank looks like it lines up to the sink cabinet. The green stripped fill hose is one royal pain in the neck to get it to seal as the ID is wavy. And then there is the vent line too which may not be sealed tight to the fill spout door unit. The fill unit has 2 male spouts on the back to connect to.

If the PO fills his tank and lets the water spurt out, that can create a situation if the hose is not sealed tight where that green striped hose or the vent tube can leak water inside the camper when it back spurts out. Then water follows the floor line to the low spot and hangs out. Maybe take a look.

I'm assuming you looked high and low at the door flange if water was getting in there. That would explain the right area at least. Are there any water stains in that area? The front of the camper side door frame is easier to explain than the back side of the door, but never know.

That wrinkled wall paper is a clue, either water wicked up it or water ran down it, or it was wrinkled on day one at that factory as 3 maybe ideas.

The discoloration points to damage that was created I'm guessing 6 months to a year ago. It is not 1 month, with this time of year and it being so cold out before the last few weeks.

For sure have to find something before you button it totally up.

On the door way, since you have it out now, when you put it back in, shoot to make the gap at the top and the door bottom to the sill as even a gap as you can. See mine Entry Door Out of Square - (Lots of pics)

Over time my entry door would not close right. I thought I was going to bust the glass from twisting the door trying to close it. Do not know if it was ever built on day 1 with an even gap up top or not, or the whole camper sags to the back over time or both as I have to deal with my front door soon too. I can see the front door bottom is below the door frame and I'm scraping the sill plate trying to close it. The rear entry door was off up top in the curved corner.

Good luck and hope this helps.

John

PS. Great pics and very helpful for the future.
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:49 AM   #6
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Sorry to see this, Scott. I think this is the first non-Que '07 I've seen with water damage. Sneaky for sure.

Any idea how the previous owner used it? Seasonal? Stored in a lot often and not used?
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Old 04-28-2014, 01:27 PM   #7
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John, that fill port is an interesting theory. I'll have a closer look at it. I think if I remove the grab bar from next to the door and a couple staples I can get a much better look and feel for moisture or staining in the wall.

The door flange shows nothing. The door seal has a nice even dark ring where the seal contacts the frame all the way around. This tends me to think the door is sealing properly. Another possibility the door could have been left ajar for a period of time and allowed water in?

We've got several more days of heavy rain forecasted here, so it will likely be the weekend before I can dig further. Right now she's under cover.

I'll have another look at your door thread I have looked at it, but will need to study it again. Definitely need to get it in there proper, if it wasn't already. I didn't notice any issue with it being out of square, but never really looked too close either.

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Sorry to see this, Scott. I think this is the first non-Que '07 I've seen with water damage. Sneaky for sure.

Any idea how the previous owner used it? Seasonal? Stored in a lot often and not used?
Aren't I the lucky one!

PO said he kept it under cover at his home. I'm starting to doubt that spent much time under a cover though.

I'm debating whether or not I should call and have a conversation with him about this. Maybe I will if I can't figure out what the source of the leak is. If he knows about it, I doubt he will be very forthcoming.
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:23 PM   #8
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Check your j-trap under the kitchen sink. We also have a '07 276 and that was the first leak I had in mine, either from the factory, and/or worked loose on the trip home from the factory.
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:04 PM   #9
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Hi Scott,

I did some more thinking on your water spot. Here is a thought.

This pic tells a lot.


From my rot experience and later learning about others rot experiences... I'm a "think'in" that the rot started at the head of the arrow area. And the over time, the water wicked out across the OSB board.

Rotted OSB falls apart in the most water held area first then spreads.

You said the door frame was clean and sealed. The wood looks good on the door frame so that helps back up story water may not have come through the door frame seal to the camper.

The way the door threshold is made it is UN-natural for water to come up from under the door threshold and then in.

The Darco looks good but if it came up from the bottom, the insulation should be soaked by the time it made it to the bottom of the floor and it was not.

There is a trail of evidence that points to the leak came down from the top and started in the corner area. Like here


The wallpaper in this pic down at the floor line "looks" like there may even be a rusted staple or 2 and the paper is puckered.

This may lead to 2 areas:

1. Did it blow in the door? Maybe but then why isn't the carpet musty? It somehow pooled in the area of the red arrow above and can be under the linoleum. Maybe it blew in, by the time is was realized and mopped up, the infiltration was done. If that is the case, it took time to get in there. Maybe 4 to 5 hours or a few days.

2. The trail of damage can point to water running along the wall in that cabinet finding it's way under the cabinet to that low spot by the head of the red arrow. I have seen water soaking under the vinyl bead strips agaisnt the floor. It is not water tight, it will come through. (I had a mini disaster to learn that....)

If it did run inside the cabinet and was there a while, take a real good look at the wall paper right at the entire length of the floor line in that cabinet. Some pics can help too. If you find the paper down at the floor line puckered, they helps build the case it came in from somewhere in that cabinet. And is so, then where does it stop the pucker?

Hope this helps. We all learn from these kind of things.

John
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:30 PM   #10
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John: Plenty of sources right behind that cabinet! Supply line from tank to pump, valve and hose for winterizarion kit (if installed), water pump, hot and cold supplies to kitchen sink, sink drain (that j-trap I mentioned before) pipe. If I remember correctly the fill line for the fresh tank, too.
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:38 PM   #11
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FYI that cabinet is a shallow pantry. On the other side is the kitchen sink with three drawers under it. You acess that area by removing the drawers.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:11 PM   #12
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I really appreciate the suggestions. John, I believe your arrow is correct as the entry point where the water slipped under the linoleum. I can reach my fingers under the siding and around the door frame and I feel only dry insulation, so my suspicions steer away from the source coming from above. I'm not eliminating that possibility, just trying to follow clues.

Mack is correct. That cabinet has a shallow pantry, then on the other side of it is a stack of drawers under the sink, then next to it is the water pump and winterization kit. I have looked for signs back there and don't see anything. I'll look again closer for pucker though. I've attached a pic inside the shallow pantry. I removed the vinyl flooring there too, which is what you see in the attached pic. Some water staining, but not soft.

If water leak onto the surface of the floor from under the cabinet (pump or sink trap) it must not have been able to get under the flooring where the bottom plate is screwed to the floor, so it just ran along the wall until there was no bottom plate - precisely at your arrow - then snuck under the flooring into the OSB flooring and wicked outward from there. As I type this I lean more and more toward the trap or pump.

Here's a thought....I'm not too familiar with how the "winterization kit" works. But I know it's there. I think there is a tube there to syphon antifreeze into the pump or something? I assume there is a valve that opens and closes it? If so, and if the winterization valve were left "open", then tank was filled and the pump turned on, would water flow back out of the tube onto the floor?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:21 PM   #13
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I really appreciate the suggestions. John, I believe your arrow is correct as the entry point where the water slipped under the linoleum. I can reach my fingers under the siding and around the door frame and I feel only dry insulation, so my suspicions steer away from the source coming from above. I'm not eliminating that possibility, just trying to follow clues.

Mack is correct. That cabinet has a shallow pantry, then on the other side of it is a stack of drawers under the sink, then next to it is the water pump and winterization kit. I have looked for signs back there and don't see anything. I'll look again closer for pucker though. I've attached a pic inside the shallow pantry. I removed the vinyl flooring there too, which is what you see in the attached pic. Some water staining, but not soft.

If water leak onto the surface of the floor from under the cabinet (pump or sink trap) it must not have been able to get under the flooring where the bottom plate is screwed to the floor, so it just ran along the wall until there was no bottom plate - precisely at your arrow - then snuck under the flooring into the OSB flooring and wicked outward from there. As I type this I lean more and more toward the trap or pump.

Here's a thought....I'm not too familiar with how the "winterization kit" works. But I know it's there. I think there is a tube there to syphon antifreeze into the pump or something? I assume there is a valve that opens and closes it? If so, and if the winterization valve were left "open", then tank was filled and the pump turned on, would water flow back out of the tube onto the floor?
There is no "open" on the valve per se. It is either pulling water from the tank or the siphon hose. If it is open to the siphon hose the pump would draw air. Now one possibility, if the valve was set to siphon and the pump check valve leaks while on city water pressure you could get wster out of the siphon hose.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:41 PM   #14
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There is no "open" on the valve per se. It is either pulling water from the tank or the siphon hose. If it is open to the siphon hose the pump would draw air. Now one possibility, if the valve was set to siphon and the pump check valve leaks while on city water pressure you could get wster out of the siphon hose.
Yah, that makes sense. I'll give it a try it just to see, in case that check valve happens to be bad. Thanks for clarifying.

The design of the door threshold makes perfect sense why the water entered at that corner. The cabinet and the threshold would just funnel it right back there.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:30 PM   #15
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Scott,

This one is for sure, looking for clues and then putting puzzle pieces tighter to see where they fit.

This pic


Is it my imagination or is there wet/dried wood goo on the threads of the cabinet screw that goes into the wall? If you click the pic it will blow up in size and pics are good to the point you can see the screw threads.

If that is goo or dried goo that is a wall clue. The screws normally unscrew out totally clean and dry. That is unless water started them to rust in the wood.

I will say this, now seeing how far this staining is, this puddle was fairly established or got multiple doses of water. And that kind of discoloration takes time. This could be 8 months to a year plus old.

Leaking through the winterizing tube, not impossible like Mack said, a city water hook up, maybe. There are 2 sets of check valves in the pump that would need to leak to allow water to get to the winterizing valve and then the valve left open.

A leaking sink trap or that gravity water fill door unit connection are really suspect to leak on and off giving multiple doses of water. A sink faucet leak should leak more constant and not matter if on city water or the fresh tank.

Any idea if the prior owner had this setup on a site? The camper on a site and the tilt of the camper would always be in the same tipped position for a length of time allowing water to pool in the same spot. A camper that is towed, gets setup different every campout and more common to tilt different.

When I had my mini water disaster in the T310 the water would run out under the cabinets to the center of the camper due to the floor tilt. It gets about 1/8 to 1/4" high inside the cabinet behind the floor strip and then gets enough head pressure to find it's way under the floor strip to come out and tell you have a mess to clean up.

I was "Johnny on the spot" and moped up the mess before damage came. The one disaster was a leak at the water pump right after we bought the camper. the pump was buried under the cabinets and after that episode happened twice, after that a total redo of the pump setup occurred. The next time was my own fault... I have a compressed air blow down setup starting at the pump. Well I pumped it out on the floor at the start of the next campout... (left valve open) Amazing what a gallon of water can be inside a camper... and how fast one can run to the pump switch... All times I was right there when it happened.

Expect for the slide floor, that I truly believe I bought infected sitting on the dealers lot with the slide open. Then 2 years went by and it festered to the point of I could find it. That and knowing where to look. I just found slide floor rot on a buddies camper and went home and looked at mine, Oh no ... Did not know enough where to go looking when I bought it, I do know....

Good hunting, you keep coming up with more clues

John
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:47 PM   #16
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Is it my imagination or is there wet/dried wood goo on the threads of the cabinet screw that goes into the wall? If you click the pic it will blow up in size and pics are good to the point you can see the screw threads.

If that is goo or dried goo that is a wall clue. The screws normally unscrew out totally clean and dry. That is unless water stated them to rust in the wood.
I noticed that same screw when I put up the pictures. I didn't notice it when I removed it though. When I get back out there again, I'll definitely have a closer look at that screw(s).
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:26 PM   #17
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Those screws were a little rusty, but I'm still no closer to an answer on this. I even bought an inspection camera to get inside the wall between the door and the window and it all looks clean. The putty around the window gives me no indication that it might be leaking, there are no cracks or gaps at all. I've removed and recaulked every seam and penetration on the roof and there were no issues anywhere on this whole side. I'll be going over the new caulk with Eternabond as well. It must have been the pump, sink, fill tube. All of which I will look at very closely and keep a close eye on, after I get things patched up.

I've got the floor joists and remaining exposed floor sealed with Rot Dr. and I'll be closing her up tomorrow. I'll post pictures of the finished floor.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:28 PM   #18
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. I'll be going over the new caulk with Eternabond as well.
If you have not seen this post yet, it may help you sort out how you are going to do this. The vinyl strip in the gutter rail is bad news.

Eternabond Roof Seal Tape on a Sunline (Lots of pics)

Glad the wall is dry and clean. Amen! Maybe set a trap with a big cookie sheet or those thin aluminum disposable baking pans with paper towels in them under a few select locations to trap the source. There may be more than 1.

Good luck and looking forward to your final fix.

John
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:44 AM   #19
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If you have not seen this post yet, it may help you sort out how you are going to do this. The vinyl strip in the gutter rail is bad news.
Eternabond Roof Seal Tape on a Sunline (Lots of pics)
Yes, I have - been following it closely. Thank you for that excellent write up. I followed your lead and removed the vinyl strip (mine looked just like yours - gross!), removed the rusty head old screws (no rust in the threads though), countersunk and replaced the screws w/ ss flat heads. Pretty much every ferrous screw I have removed anywhere, gets replaced w/ stainless.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:18 PM   #20
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I've got the floor all patched up. I just used a piece of vinyl flooring that I had lying around from another project. It's not a perfect look, but it'll do fine. Easy to replace if desired. It's good to have her back together.

(note: the black looking areas on the osb, was just superficial and easily sanded off and leveled out with the new plywood before the flooring went down.)

I also got the roof completely re-sealed with Dicor then went over everything with the Eternabond. Feeling confident in a tight roof!
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1988 Saturn T-1550 (sold 6/10)
2004 Solaris T-1950 (sold 5/14)
2007 Solaris T-276SR
2012 Toyota Tundra Crewmax
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