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Old 02-21-2010, 10:04 PM   #1
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Warning: SOB discussion

I need some help from my Sunline friends. Though I am not shopping for a Sunline, it IS a Sunline replacement, so it seemed appropriate for this forum (plus, you are all just so helpful!)


I need help. Last Thursday I ordered a new Big Horn 3410RE. The salesman told me that within 7-10 days I could change my options selection or the model itself with no penalty, until such point as it gets scheduled for production.

My wife and I are torn on whether we should stay with the 3410RE or our second choice (depending on when you ask), the 3185RL. We have another few days before we need a final decision.

Sometimes a second opinion is helpful, or maybe you all might see something I don't.

3410RE:
Pros...
- More open floor plan
- Lighter pin weight (1790 dry)
- King size bed

- Large front closet to hang stuff

Cons...
- Little counter space
- Little room to walk around bed due to king-size
- Partially obstructed rear view due to entertainment center
- The slideout containing the recliners is small, such that you cannot turn the chairs much without them hitting each other or the wall. Not an optimal situation for viewing TV.

3185RL:
Pros...
- Gorgeous kitchen
with lots of storage and counter space
- Does not have the problem with recliners hitting each other
- 2 feet shorter than 3410RE (35ft) important to us since we use state parks

Cons...
- Only a queen size bed (parallel to coach)
- No front closet to hang stuff
- No W/D hookups, which is irrelevant to me, but may affect resale
- Little open floor space, especially with slides retracted, can't get to rear at all
- Heavier pin weight (~2200lbs dry)

Now my wife is in love with the kitchen on the 3185Rl, especially if we order them in cherry. It looks fantastic, and I think the kitchen area is very functional. The 3185RL is about $500 cheaper than the 3410RE.

I know this is a matter of personal choice but I'd love any insight you guys have, either due to experience with these units or things you'd look for on your next rig that we may not be considering. Here are links to the floorplans...


3185RL: http://heartlandrvs.com/models.html?...pe=Fifth+Wheel

3410RE: http://heartlandrvs.com/models.html?...pe=Fifth+Wheel
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:49 PM   #2
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Hi Jeff,

Wow, this is a tough decision.

Personally, I like the 3410 better, but that's just me. I feel it's more open, especially with the TV dropping down in the back. That's a nice feature. I see your concern about kitchen counter space though. You almost need a (small) island there to enlarge the space some. Even if it is only like a foot wide, it could give a little bit of storage underneath and I'm sure it would be a nice place to be able to set stuff. When the slide comes in, it would go right about up against that and then you could still get through by walking through the kitchen.

I'm not really a fan of the 3185 because I feel that floorplan has just been beat to death by other manufacturers. I'm not positive who came out with it, but the first time I saw it was in the new Mobile Suites by then Doubletree, now DRV. That was about the only layout Doubletree had and they had a couple changes to it to make a couple different models. They may have had some others, but all I've seen on a regular basis is that 36TK3. This probably wouldn't be a big deal until you go to sell it, though.

You mentioned the problem with the chairs. I suspect you should be able to freely move the couch and chairs around, in which case you could reverse them. Then you might have a slight bit more room since you could juggle the dinette chairs around to make the chairs fit better to see the TV when need be.

The bed issue. Are you really set on wanting a king bed? Most people I've talked to prefer not to have a king bed, particularly in an RV. I did see you can get a Queen bed IPO King bed as an option, so maybe this is the route to go. It would give you more room to move around up there. Plus it would probably give you a credit to the sale price...

Another thing I'll bring up, while you may find otherwise, especially since you have kids, is the desk chair. I see that is an option. I would recommend that you see how large the dinette chairs are, and if they will fit in the desk area, just plan to use one of those if using the desk. It will save on weight and also give you some storage space, such as if you are using air beds on the floor, this would be a good place to store them during the day if you don't want to put them in the bedroom or outside.

Here's a quick picture I threw together:


Jon
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:27 AM   #3
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I like the 3185 for the following reasons...
assuming it has the big rear window I'd want the view,
TV viewing is so much better,
obviously the kitchen.
It still looks like it has a sizeable closet. Unless you're going to be fulltiming I wouldn't care about a washer/dryer hookup. The only thing I don't like better is the pin weight being so much heavier.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:51 AM   #4
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Jon,

Interesting thought on the island. Heartland makes another big horn model that has such an island, the 3580RL

http://heartlandrvs.com/models.html?...pe=Fifth+Wheel

The problem I have with islands like this is they usually don't seem to be very sturdy, because of the narrow footprint it's probably going to be very difficult to get any stability out of it. The 3185RL's "peninsula" shaped kitchen solves that, as it is "L" shaped island and I've checked in two different models to make sure they are rock-solid.

The king bed I think is not an issue. For a while my wife was insisting on it. Then I realized she had never slept in the queen bed in our Sunline F-293SR. She was referring to the smaller-than-queen sized bed in the 2570 which was a little tight for us, given the positions we sleep in. Once I re-introduced her to the queen bed in the fifth wheel, she's OK with it.

I definitely won't be ordering the extra chair for the desk. Should I absolutely need something in the future, there are other options like folding chairs I can consider, all cheaper than the $128 option price from Heartland.

I spoke to the factory rep this morning about the possibility of upgrading from 6000lb axles and E-rated tires, to 7000lb/G-rated. It's a $1495 upgrade! Additionally, for another $300 they will upgrade to Goodyear tires. I'm not sure if the 6000->7000lb axle upgrade is worth it, but the Goodyear upgrade seems to make sense. They come stock with Tow Max which I've read all kinds of explosion problems on.
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:46 AM   #5
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Jeff,
A couple of other things to consider, but these are just opinions as the only fiver experience I have is traveling together with my brother and his Titanium, although we were in our Sunline.

Some people aren't keen on having appliances in a slide out. Also, having a bed in a slide out basically puts your head outside the trailer into a much cooler noisier space.

The lack of access with slides in depends on how you intend to use the trailer. If the bathroom and fridge are accessible on the road, the essentials are pretty much covered. What kind of food do you eat and how often do you intend to have a sit down meal on the road?

IMHO, don't even consider resale value. Buy the floor plan that suits your family today and the camping/traveling style you anticipate for the future time the family will be with you. We take a beating anytime we trade anything so might as well get something we like for us rather than the next guy. If the trailer "fits" your family the kids will be happy and much more inclined to keep traveling with you as they get older. My BIL's older teens still travel with them because they go to places the kids want to go as well.

I've always liked that Sunline's axles and tires were spec'd to the full GVWR, not just the axle weight. Most other manufacturers, including your new Heartland, spec to the axle weight which means, depending on how you travel, you could be close to the limit. So I'd upgrade the axles and tires. The price is exorbitant for 1000 lb., but so are options on any vehicle--don't get me started on stereos and MP3 jacks--and the manufacturers know what they can charge before a customer will do it himself.

Henry
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:38 AM   #6
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3410 would be my choice. The living room in the 3185 is gonna be/GET real small real quick as your boys grow. TV viewing appears to only be good from one (1) recliner in either floor plan unless one recliner is moved to better the view. The view out the nice large rear window is going to be obstructed by either the TV in the 3410, or by the recliners & maybe people in the recliners in the 3185. The nice huge kitchen in the 3185, well personally for me, I'm going camping I don't plan nor intend to be "Susie Homemaker" preparing big meals, more SPACE to fill with more STUFF, more STUFF to STOW before you roll......STUFF equals more WEIGHT, and your watching your weights. That's why theres a WalMart Supercenter around every corner, so you can re-stock . I like the bathroom door arrangement more in the 3410. I'm still not wild about appliances sliding in & out (just my opinion), You have a slightly better chance of getting to the rear of the 3410 over the 3185 when the slides are in. If "walk around" space around the bed is an issue with the king bed, get them to change it to a queen (Save a good bit on the cost of sheets that way also). SO, now that some of us are posting opinions, your probably just as undecided as you were before. Maybe you could get Heartland to make/install a "small" island for you?? It's great to shop for a new rig, BUT, seems that you always want this section of rig A and that section of Rig B to make your dream RV. Just have to decide what is more important to have and use the most. I love that big kitchen, but it would end up with lots of "Stuff" on the counters (read--something more for me to have to put away) And, Gary has put me on a "STUFF DIET"
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:55 AM   #7
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Wow!

Truly a home on wheels.

My comments are small. We have found 32 feet a limit in many older parks when we travel with our Bounder. Even then we have found at least two national parks and one state park where we were too long.

Friends of mine with washers and dryers find them a waste because they do only small loads and find it easier to go to a laundry and do three loads at once.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:08 PM   #8
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OK, this has been a really helpful discussion, along with a very similar post I have going over at rv.net. What we've decided to do is change our order to the 3670RL. Here is that floorplan:

http://heartlandrvs.com/models.html?...pe=Fifth+Wheel

This is, by far, the most popular floorplan in the big horn line. My wife gets her kitchen, and we get our bigger bedroom and closet.

Now you may be asking, WHY? After all, this thing is big... 38' in length and over 12k pounds dry, 2065lb of which is pin weight (dry). After deciding to spend the extra $1495 for the bigger axles and $300 for real tires, I checked out the price difference between the 3410RE and the 3670RL, which was only $1800. The 3670RL comes with the bigger axles and tires standard (as well as a 40k BTU furnance IPO 35k BTU), along with the extra space and making the wife happy with the kitchen.

I'm a little concerned about the weight and how my truck is going to handle it. I have a feeling airbags are in my future. I'll probably end up somewhere around 600lbs over GVWR, yet I'll be safely under axle ratings and GCVWR. We take shorter trips, weigh everything that goes in, drive very slowly and cautiously, and hope everything works out OK . The F-293SR had a higher dry pin weight, and I loaded it with reckless abandon and it towed, turned, and stopped great. So I'm hopeful that this won't be any worse.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:36 PM   #9
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Hey Jeff,

WOW what a great looking trailer and floor plan. Excellent choice and from what I’ve heard Bighorn makes exceptional trailers.

My only questions is, once you get it are you going to bring it the Midwest M&G?
I would love to see it and also meet you and your family.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ihsolutions
...I have a feeling airbags are in my future. ...
FYI - I would suggest you do some research before deciding to going with airbags. I have no experience myself with them, but I do have a camping friend that had airbags on his previous TV with his FW and hated them. He said he felt less stability with them. He has since changed both his TV & FW, but didn’t go with airbags again. This time he added an extra leaf spring to help the bed from sinking too much when the FW was hitch up. Thought I would share that with you, for whatever it's worth.

Hope to see you at the Midwest M&G
Hutch
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:29 PM   #10
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Surprised.

It's certainly a beautiful trailer. I'm surprised it only has two axles rated for a total of 14,000 pounds when the trailer weighs 16,000 pounds. Even with 2000 of that on your truck it still makes it a 1 to 1 ratio.

When one compares the cost of the trailer to an extra axle one has to wonder what trailer manufacturers are thinking. I have noticed the same situation with our motorhome.

As well we know the load frequently gets distributed to one side or the other or one axle or the other depending on road crown, etcetera.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:42 PM   #11
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Hi Norm,

The GVWR is 16,000, but the trailer doesn't weight that much (and never will, while I own it!). The dry weight is 12,161. With battery, propane, loaded to go I'm expecting it to weigh in somewhere around 13,500. That's still under the axle ratings of 14k and the GVWR of 16k.

But I do agree, they seem to go as cheap as possible. That's what made me nervous with the 3410RE, which weighs 11,500 dry and only had 6000lb axles standard!

It's not just Heartland, I've seen this in almost every brand we've looked at.

The good news is, the Lippert frame will probably break down long before the axles fail!

One thing I JUST noticed, the unit I ordered (3670RL) has a 12" I-beam frame, where the 3410RE only had 10".

For reference, my 33' Sunline had a 12" frame.
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Old 02-22-2010, 02:36 PM   #12
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I'm a light loader myself but know it's easy to add weight. Filling the water tank alone for those trips into places where there is virtually no water pushes the weight up quickly.

The other concern I've had with our motorhome is the regular uneven load the axles/tires see due to road conditions.

If I were a manufacturer I would use axles as a market differentiator, in this area it costs so little to be better. I do recognize that this is an all to common situation.

Unfortunately most people are not conscious about weight and do get carried away.

As well as the axle it's also the tires are always close to the limit in capacity.

Safe travels with your new beautiful rig,
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:52 PM   #13
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Jeff,I tow with the same TV you have and my f-345sr weighs about the same . I have had no problem towing with the stock suspension. just returned from daytona fla traveled about 1800 miles R/T and with no trouble at all(but I do pack light )avg about 10.5 mpg at 60-65mph I hope this helped.by the way nice looking 5ver
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:50 PM   #14
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Hey Paul,

Great to hear you are towing the 345 with no problems. I unloaded my 293 recently at my house, and noticed a HUGE difference in handling when I drove it back to the storage, empty, compared to when it was fully loaded.

Have you ever scaled your rig? Do you have any idea what the dry pin weight is? (mine was unpublished by Sunline, but I calculated it at 2200 including battery and propane).

Does it ever feel like the trailer is pushing the truck around, especially around turns? What about mountains?

Sorry for so many questions. My wife is freaking out and thinks we bought something too heavy. But that's probably a result of her perusing rv.net recently!
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:21 PM   #15
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Hi Jeff two things I have for you

#1 and most importanted HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE!
#2 a look at the ROAD MASTER ACTIVE SUSPENSION or RAS I have them on my Excursion they are like an add a leat spring but do not effect the ride of the solo vehicle I have had them on now for two years and they are pretty easy to install good luck Dan
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:28 PM   #16
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I was looking into the cost of having Mor/ryde hydraulic disc brakes installed after I pick up our new Big Horn, (err, I mean SOB!) in Elkhart. They charge about $2,500 and it takes one day.

Then my dealer made mention of a "hidden option" where Heartland will install Never-lube hubs, 3.75" brakes (instead of 2") and 8,000 lb axles for only $950. This seems like a no-brainer upgrade. My question is, can anyone provide a basis of comparison between the standard 2" brakes and the larger 3.75" drum brakes? I guess if they do not perform at the level I expect, I can always get the hydraulic disc later, and I'd still have larger axles and maintenance free hubs right?
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:17 PM   #17
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Jeff

See if this helps.

I “think” what that option on the Never Lube is actually 12 1/4” brakes. 12 1/4” x 2 1/2" brakes can give 7,000# each.

Here is a replacement cost, brake plate, shoes, magnet and all. Cost $159.95
http://shop.easternmarine.com/index....categoryID=149

And here is the 12 1/4" x 3 3/8 wide. These are 8,000# brakes each. And these are self adjusting. Cost $169.95 So for $10 more a wheel you get self adjust and 1,000# more rating.
http://shop.easternmarine.com/index....categoryID=149

So 4 of the 12 1/4" x 3 3/8 wide is $679.80 less the drums upgrade. But they are subtracting what ever they had as they are not supplying it. At factory costs they can get these things cheaper then we can on the aftermarket.

So a few questions that you may ask.

For the $950 upgrade to 8K axles and Never Lube, do they come with self adjusting brakes?

Do they come with upgraded rims and tires to line up with the 16,000# worth of axles?

I’ll throw my 2 cents out spending your money…. The Never Lube is a good hub setup and the heavier brakes, self adjusting feature, heavier axles and ideally tires in my mind is a worth while upgrade.

I myself do not like that they put 14,000# of axle and tire on a 16,000# GVWR rig. Knowing now what I do after being educated the hard way, I would not buy a new camper of any brand/type without the axles and tires to take the full GVWR. The camper does not load even, long range towing heat, tire breakdown etc. By having the axles/tires heavier buys you cushion and safety margin.

Now today in your truck situation you may not ever approach the higher end GVW. But this camper, if it at this point is considered to be a long term keeper, I would go for it and not settle for less. The cost of $950, well they have ya. Ideally it comes cheaper but you may not be able to beat them down much further.

Good luck and hope this helps

John
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