Hoping to be a newbie Sunline owner!

[ChristineH]

Hello all,
I'm looking at a 2004 Sunline Solaris with a slide out. It had a small roof leak that the owner repaired. I've seen conversations about aluminum versus rubber roof. Which roof does the 2004 have, and what should I look for? Thank you so much! I know nothing about older campers, and have only been camping for 2 years. I appreciate your help!

[Tinstaafl]

Hi, Christine.

I see by your other post that you've found the camper most likely has a rubber roof. With proper care, they can last a very long time. I have a 1999 model that's holding up great.

I'm sure JohnB will be along to chime in here. He can tell you in excruciating detail what to look for regarding the patch that was done and possible weak points to look at.

Be aware that "Solaris" is the name of a family of specific models. My Solaris is a T-1950, for example. This brochure in our Files section can help you identify which model you're looking at:

https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/d...o=file&id=5517

[ChristineH]

Thank you, I'll take a look!

[ChristineH]

From looking at the brochure, it looks like a T-267SR.

[JohnB]

[

Originally Posted by ChristineH

Snip...

I'm looking at a 2004 Sunline Solaris with a slide out.

It had a small roof leak that the owner repaired. I've seen conversations about aluminum versus rubber roof. Which roof does the 2004 have, and what should I look for?

Hi Christine,

First off, Welcome! You have come to the right place for Sunline info.

The short and sweet answers to two of your questions.

1. A 2004 T-267SR Sunline will have a rubber roof.

2. Aluminum (metal) roof versus rubber roof, Sunline did install both over the years. In the mid 90’s, they started to switch from all metal to all rubber. Both are good roof systems, they are just different.

Now to the, “It had a small roof leak that the owner repaired.” & “What should I look for”? This is not short and most times, not sweet. Trying to be helpful here, and help you know what to look for.

The owner selling the camper may be trying to be as honest as they know about the leak. They are declaring they had a leak, that is the first step in being honest to a prospective buyer. If they saw a leak, inside the camper, then they “fixed” it, those words could mean, they caulked “something, somewhere” and the leak they saw stopped, and they are feeling good they fixed it.

More detail about the leak is needed to give you a better understanding of the problem. I would make this recommendation to you “before” you buy any used camper, any brand, any age. For the cost of approx. $45.00 you can buy a moisture meter that can scan the walls, ceiling, floor, roof and the floor bottom plastic cover for water damage. Before buying the camper, you can scan the camper and know what you are getting. See this post for more on the moisture meter and where to buy one. There is a little learning curve on how to use the meter, it is simple and most anyone can use it to get good info they would never of known without using it. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...per-17613.html

You can order that model off Amazon, or some Lowes home improvements stores now carry that model https://www.lowes.com/pd/General-Too...Meter/50284821

While the owner may have caulked something to no longer see the leak, did they take the camper apart and repair the damage hidden behind the area? Campers do not leak like houses do. And they may be other leaks the owner does not know of. A seeping leak in a camper can be ongoing for months to years before signs of water show up inside the living space. Sometimes you can smell the musty odor, and sometimes you cannot smell anything. The water gets trapped in the ceiling, walls, floor and can’t get out. Over time, the wood rots enough the leak will makes its way through to the living space. The moisture meter can see behind the walls etc. for the trapped moisture. This may be a shock to the seller if you find something, they may just not know how bad this can be, as they can’t see it. And they may or may not believe you and your meter that you show up with. They cannot see the damage, so what is the problem?

The slide floor in that year camper may also have a leak and the owner may not know it is there. See this post for more on slide floor leaks and where to look. The moisture meter scanning up on outside bottom of the slide floor can confirm the floor is wet or not. Pressing on the floor can also tell. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...eck-11086.html

If the slide has an awning topper on it, odds are better it may not have a wet slide floor, but they can still get a water infection even with one.

I’m not saying to not buy the camper after what you find. Just with the meter, you know going into the sale, there is damage that you may need to get fixed. And, that you are not paying top dollar based on a “no leaks” camper. Then comes, who will do the fixing, yourself or a RV repair shop?

If you have wood working tools, some knowledge of building most anything out of wood, these Sunlines can all be fixed. We have many posts of members fixing and restoring their campers, and if wanted we can link them for you to see.

We can help with “how to” repair it, while you do the work. The materials to create a fix may not cost that much, however, the hours spent can be very large. Some repairs can take a year or more depending on how much time you have to spend per week, and how large the damage is. Most times, hiring a repair shop at rates of $75 to $120/hr to do large water damage repairs is not practical. The labor cost alone will more than the insurance value of the camper for a total loss. The only way most of our club members fix these is, they do the work themselves.

I do not want to be all gloom and doom on this, just to give you a heads up what to look for. That model you are looking at is a very nice, well-built camper, as far as campers go. But water damage is real and many camper owners never know what to do to prevent it.

Some of us here on the forum actually look for Sunlines where the inside is still in good condition, but they have water damage and we take them on to fix them. Once a Sunline is restored, and then kept up, they are far better than many brand new campers still for sale today.

If you do an inspection, and want to know more about what you find, come back to us and we can help better tell/show you what the repair may entail.

Hope this helps

John

[ChristineH]

Thank you for the welcome and the information, John! I ordered the meter. My friend who is knowledgeable about campers was supposed to go with me on Saturday to inspect but his daughter got covid and they are now quarantined for 2 weeks (at least). So I bought the meter, will go over next week with it to see what I can determine. the leak was in the back/passenger side. He said they resealed the entire roof. But there is some buckled wall paper on the bathroom wall and some stain in the bunk room. The slide out does have an awning (I remembered to check that). I'll be back to the forum with my meter findings. I am so grateful to have this forum!
Stay safe everyone,
Christine

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by ChristineH

snip...

So I bought the meter, will go over next week with it to see what I can determine.

the leak was in the back/passenger side. He said they resealed the entire roof. But there is some buckled wall paper on the bathroom wall and some stain in the bunk room.

The slide out does have an awning (I remembered to check that). I'll be back to the forum with my meter findings.

Hi Christine,

Your very welcome.

So the leak was in the right rear (passenger side) corner. Here is the floor plan


That would be in the bunk area. The good news, it was not on the left rear where the shower stall is. The shower makes a repair a little more involved, still doable.

He said

But there is some buckled wall paper on the bathroom wall and some stain in the bunk room

If he is stating staining and buckled wallpaper. That helps describe the leak is most likely not new. It was ongoing a while. It takes time for slow seeping leaks to get through the wall and the vinyl wall paper. If the leak was a large size hole, then yes it can come in faster, but most roof leaks are seepers, small cracks in the sealant and it is slow.

If he used the words

He said they resealed the entire roof.

That wording can be truthful, but do not miss-read the wording, resealed the entire roof. One needs to understand the context of that.

Looking/inspecting at all the caulking on the roof, and "touching up" any questionable areas, can be called, resealing the roof. But unless he scraped off all the old caulk, a day or more of work, and pumped 8 to 9 tubes of new caulk on, then he touched up all the roof sealant. Not that he sealed everything up there, like an entire coating on the rubber membrane and all new caulking.

It is good someone went over all the roof caulking, that is a good thing, they at least tried to stop any active roof leak. Just do not read into it, that the roof is all good. Re-ask, did he just inspect and touch up all the caulking?

It does not sound like he did any repairs to the water damage in the walls, ceiling or floor.

When you get your meter, make sure it is in "wall mode" as there are 2 other modes. Touch the back sensor to your hand and it will scan the water in your body. A very high number.

You can scan the shower fiberglass walls and it will see right through the fiberglass to what is in the wall behind it. Scan the ceiling starting at the wall and work inwards. Scan the wall, starting at the top and work your way to the floor. Inside the bath cabinets and between the bunks. Water likes to run down the corner of the camper easier, so do the entire right rear corner.

If someone is going with you, and they are OK to use a stepladder, take pictures of the roof and the caulking. DO NOT go on the roof, look from the ladder on the side. Ideally before you buy it, someone knowing campers sees the roof or bring back good pics and we can help.

You can also scan the very bottom of the back wall outside, (not the metal siding) scanning up on the black membrane under the camper. The slide campers are made different and there is a well at the bottom of the back wall where water collects and rots out the bottom boards. The good news in that design, it normally does not rot out the floor like the smaller campers.

Just so you know, below is a link to what a water damage can be on a Sunline slide camper that happened on the rear corner. The corners of the camper flex the most from towing or even standing still in one location. When the caulk is not maintained by the owner, the camper flexing and caulking shrinking from the sun starts cracks in the caulking. If the cracks are left go untouched, over time they turn into leaks as the cracks get bigger. There was no smell or visible signs of damage inside the camper, but we knew when we bought it, there was a roof issue by the rubber band feeling or the rubber and the fresh caulking on the front seam. Also to note, not all the water comes in the roof. Corner moldings can leak in the sides of the molding (up and down the wall) and get into the wall. The siding sealants can leak too.

This camper is all fixed now and better then new. Our son planned on keeping it a good long time so we redid all the water damage.
https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...avy-16834.html

That camper I linked may have more or less damage then yours. For your meter readings, record the number and the location you took them so we can see them. Take pics, many.

That is a nice camper. We have several members with that floor plan.

Good luck

John

[JohnB]

Here is something that may help too. I was doing a writeup on this for another post I have not made it to yet.

From my use of the General Instruments moisture meter, model MMD7NP, when used in "wall mode," below is a generic breakdown from 0% to 100% readings. Note: Metal in an area behind the meter will create a high number due to the scanner's technology. Objects inside the wall, floor, or ceiling, such as; wires or metal plates, steel camper frames, etc., will create false high percentages. Those metal parts can generate a high percentage blip and go back down to 0% in a very short distance of meter movement. Water and dampness, most times, are never a blip. Water infects a larger area and has never gone from 0% to 100% and back to 0% in a very short distance, less than 1" to 2". Water trapped behind the wallboard will display meter readings, decreasing wetness when the scanned area becomes drier or increasing wetness when the scanned area is wetter. The meter only scans approx 3/4" deep into the wall.

0% to 5%: Area is dry.
15% to 25%: Area behind the meter is damp. 15% is lower dampness then 25%.
30% to 40%: Area is wet, close to saturation behind the meter. Fine mist to some small droplets of water may be present.
50% to 75%: Area is saturated. Many visible moisture droplets are behind the meter.
75% to 100%: Area is dripping saturated. 75% is large numbers of droplets, 100% is wicking water.

[ChristineH]

Hello again,
Well, I went to see the camper and took my daughter and son-in-law. I used the meter and we felt around the bottom of the slide out. All bad news. The back walls in the bath on all 3 sides and the back of the bunk room have high % on the meter. So clearly there is water damage there. When we felt the floor outside underneath the slide there were several soft spots. Thank you again for your help; it was invaluable. I cannot buy a camper with this much damage because I do not have the ability to repair. I will keep looking! I really like this brand, so I plan to return to this forum daily, and search in my geographical area as well. Keep me in mind if you hear of anything for sale!

[ChristineH]

I have been looking online and joined the Facebook group. Is the nada website a good indicator of a fair price?

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by ChristineH

I have been looking online and joined the Facebook group. Is the nada website a good indicator of a fair price?

Thank you for reporting back. Glad you took the moisture meter with you.

You did well on your first camper inspection. Once understood how to use it, the moisture meter has helped many realize what hidden water damage lurks behind the walls.

On the NADA pricing, consider it a "place to start." An RV dealer's price can be higher or very close. You can search online for campers for sale and see what the askings prices are. That does not mean it is what they sell at.

I have found (all pre-Covid) that the NADA price for the model and year of the camper you are looking at is in line with what some insurance companies will insure the camper for a total loss.

A private sale may be close or what the owner "thinks" it is worth. And this can be all over the map, but it is what they want to get for it. If the inside is in great shape and sees "no signs" of visible leaks or musty smells, they believe the camper is leak-free and want top price. If it genuinely is leak-free, the roof all maintained since new, all the appliances maintained, tires less than five years old, the axle, brakes, and suspension well maintained, the higher price can be worth it.

Issues come when water damage is not visible, tires that look good but are six-plus years old, the suspension has never been looked at, and the list goes on. It is hard "sometimes" to convince the owner their camper has problems, and their price is high for its condition.

The seller often wants to recoup the most money they can in a sale, and the buyer often wants to pay the least. The hope is, you find a middle ground and feel good about it.


When looking up NADA values, see the note they call “Sunline Note” and “Option note” Do not add extra items that will up the price if your camper came with upgrades as standard items. Sunlines often came with many upgrades other RV’s added separately. Here is a link to the 2004 T267SR you where looking at. Spare tire, crank down stabilizers were options not included in the Solaris package, those two items you can add if the one you are looking at had them. The slider topper, was also an option. The main awning came standard. Power tongue jacks were an option if the one you looked at had them. There is no de-rating in NADA for water damage, old tires etc. It is assumed the camper is in good useable condition.

https://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2004/.../M-267/4080632

Hope this helps, and good luck with your search for the perfect Sunline for you!

John

PS. The T267SR is a larger Sunline; if you plan to tow the camper often from campsite to campsite, research into the right size tow vehicle for your camper. Sunlines come in all sizes and weights. Matching up the right size truck to the camper for the way you will use it, is part of having enjoyable travel to and from the campsite.

[ChristineH]

Thank you once again!

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by ChristineH

I have been looking online and joined the Facebook group. Is the nada website a good indicator of a fair price?

Hi Christine,

Welcome to the forum.

And yes, NADA is always a good benchmark to see if the seller's price is in the fair and reasonable range.

As JohnB pointed out, then you can look at how well (or lack of) the unit has been maintained and its current shape/condition and adjust the price as you feel fit.

It's probably reasonable to expect that you'll need to buy 5 new tires for the trailer. Depending on the size and tire you buy, that additional cost could be $500 or more.
If you know the size of the tires, Discount Tire would be a good place to get an estimate on the cost of tires. Our Sunline with a slide (T280-SR) had ST225/75R15-D tires, I'm guessing the trailer you looking at may have the same size tires.
I personnel like the MAXXIS or Goodyear Endurance tires, but there are other good tires out there. You don't want to go cheap on tires, a blow out can cause lots of damage to a trailer.
For example the MAXXIS M8008 ST225/75R15 Load Range D tire is $117.74 at Discount Tire. You could use that as a ball park estimate on what 5 new tires may cost. Add maybe $25 / tire for mounting if you buy them on-line.

Other recommended maintenance to have done after purchase would be to have all the wheel bearings repacked. A dealership might charge in the range of $250 to repack 2 axles 4 bearings.

Just some additional anticipated after purchase costs that you might want to consider along with the purchase price of the trailer.

Hope this is of some help to you and good luck.

[ChristineH]

Thank you for the additional information, PTHutch! I'll keep checking this forum for sales and looking online as well. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!

[ChristineH]

I found one to look at on Saturday. It is a 2006 T276sr. Anything in particular with that year/model I should be looking for? I still have my checklist and my water meter, but wanted to ask if there is anything else. Thanks!

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by ChristineH

I found one to look at on Saturday. It is a 2006 T276sr. Anything in particular with that year/model I should be looking for? I still have my checklist and my water meter, but wanted to ask if there is anything else. Thanks!

The prior check list is still all good.

The 2006 slide campers had an upgraded slide floor to help water entry issues of the prior 2 to 3 years. However, still check it as the new design had an issue with water wicking in the new slide floor ends.

Good luck, that is a nice camper if it is good shape.

Let us know how you make out.

John

[ChristineH]

Thank you. This one seems too good for the price and another person is looking at it before me. We will see. I'm assuming the water meter works on ice as well? Because everything is frozen here in PA. And can I use the meter on the rug in the slide? Not sure I'll be able to reach under the camper due to all of the snow.
You are all the best!

[JohnB]

Hi Christine,

Originally Posted by ChristineH

I'm assuming the water meter works on ice as well? Because everything is frozen here in PA.

And can I use the meter on the rug in the slide? Not sure I'll be able to reach under the camper due to all of the snow.

H'mm, does the meter work on a frozen camper? Good question, I have never tried that.

I did some testing today to try and find an answer.

I thought up a test to see if the meter could find frozen wetness (that is an oxymoron) behind a piece of Sunline wall board.

See here, I collected a piece of scrap 1/8" wall board out of a 2007 Sunline. I found a plastic container I could half fill with snow, (about 3 1/2" deep) and leave open air on the other end. The test was to put the piece of wall board over the top of the container and see the meter change from no snow to snow and could I tell the difference.

Here is the test setup. To start with I had the meter over the air space which read 0% as expected.


Then I put the meter right on the snow. The meter still read 0%. That was not expected.


Thinking the meter may not be working, I tested it on the palm of my hand and a jug of water I had in the barn. Both gave 100% as I expected. The meter is working.


Scanning through the plastic jug to see the water inside.


Thinking snow was not dense enough, I tried solid ice cubes. Still 0%.


Then the paper towel under the ice cubes which had some water from the cubes thawing. 20%. The meter can find actual water wetness, just not frozen.


Seeing this, I would conclude there are high odds the meter will not work on frozen wood or frozen anything. Something about the sensor system of the meter that it needs liquid water in some form to see it. Steam, fog, dew or water wetness etc., not frozen water.

You will have to look for visible signs of water damage, if you can see water mark stained areas, that is a heads up. If the back or front wall outside has rusted head screws on the bottom siding, that points to a wet wall before it froze. You most likely will not smell mildew from wet wood if everything is frozen.

If the roof is not covered in snow, someone who knows what to look for, can see where leaks may have occurred by reading the looks of the caulking and feeling the stiffness or softness of the rubber.

If you cannot see it visually that there are water stains, or other wetness attributes, as there are none, without the meter working, it can be tough to know if it is wet or dry.

I'll look for something on the 2006 slide floor and post if I can find it.

Hope this helps. Take pics of anything and post that looks suspect that you cannot figure out, if you want us to help explain it.

John

[JohnB]

Here are some pics of what the 2005 to 2007 slide floors looked like and what to look for.

You can still feel the bottom ends of the slide floor outside pressing up. If the slide is retracted in, if you go to the bedroom end and the bathroom door way, you can see the ends of the slide floor and it should be up off the floor so you can feel if the ends are soft or hard.

The slide floor is coated OSB board with a plastic type of coating. This upgrade did away with using the black plastic membrane of years back, which was a good thing.

But, the RV industry did not learn about the ends of the board having tiny cracks in the coating that later let water wick into the wood.

If there is a little damage, the repair is not hard if it is just the ends with cracked coating. The RV aftermarket created a Slide Ski to help fix just this problem area. If the water wicked inboard several inches of soft floor, that can be a larger job to fix.

Here is a pic of the slide floor. The brown spots are rusted screw heads, chipped coating and maybe some bare wood.


Here is a closeup of the chipped floor by the screws. In this case the wood is still hard and this is easy to fix just a chipped coating.


Here is one of the new style slide floors where water started wicking into the end. You can see the coating is not the same, as it looks crumbled and it may be soft. Again if the softness is less then 1/2" into the floor, that is not that bad, if the softness is 2 to 3 inches into the floor, that is a bigger problem and the slide floor may need to be changed pending how far advanced the problem is. Not a shower stopper by itself, but add it to the list if the other parts of the camper has issues.


Hope this helps.

John

[Tinstaafl]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Seeing this, I would conclude there are high odds the meter will not work on frozen wood or frozen anything. Something about the sensor system of the meter that it needs liquid water in some form to see it. Steam, fog, dew or water wetness etc., not frozen water.

Excellent empirical testing John, and your conclusion is correct. Without getting too deep into physics mumbo-jumbo, it has to do with ion flow and how it's inhibited by the crystalline structure of ice.

Put simply, ice is a much poorer conductor of electricity than liquid water, and that conductivity is what those meters rely upon.

For the trivia award: Ironically, pure water is an excellent electrical insulator. It's only the impurities in all water outside of a laboratory that make it conductive.