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Old 12-02-2009, 08:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Each slide combo is made a little differnet. Mine is table and chairs. Some are dinnettes. The weight overhang is different and what people load in them is different. The canterliver bounce back is different pending the load in the slide. Now it may not mean a hill of beans, but ....
That's a good point. Do you think the fact you have a probably lighter table and (2 instead of 4 most of the time) chairs causes that bounce to be a little more, so then that would be why the bars fall out? With the dinette coaches, it may just be enough weight, especially with the big drawers under them, to hold it down enough where the bars wouldn't move.

Jon
Hi Jon

Sorry, I did not fill in enough of my thoughts on the weight differences. Let me try and expand on my thoughts.

The way these things are made, when the slide is in, it is up off the floor and only attached to the 2 Lippert slide frame rails with a whopping 4, carriage bolts. These are the 4 that Gary said Stans’ old camper where loose.

When the camper retracts it seals on 4 sides but still only being pulled in at the bottom. The top does get some pulled but it get’s it from the part of the slide hanging below the Lippert guide rails when it bottoms out on the camper wall.

See this pic of mine


From Gary


And from Gary


When closed, the Lippert rails are a pivot point. If you had brut force enough to push at the top of the slide, it would pivot on the Lippert rails connection to the slide floor and try and break off the lower part of the slide below the Lippert guides being held tight against the TT.

OK so that would be how the slide would pivot out so to speak. Again Gary giving us great pics to talk to. The only diffence is the entire floor would come up and over and out. So that is how it would fail if the force was high enough.


So now what about the weight? Well my slide has a couch and a bunch of camper stuff under it. That weigth is closer to the outside wall. The table and chairs does not weigh much but part of it is against the wall and part at the end closest to the inside of the TT.

If the TT dropped in a big pot hole, there would be a heavy vertical jolt of force up into the camper coming out of the hole and them back down. Remember there are no shocks on these things normally. So the up and down bounce happens a few cycles before is stops.

The heavier the weight in the slide when in the retracted travel position that is furthest from the wall, or closest to the center of the camper, creates a larger dynamic bounce so to speak. That mass is canterlivered in from the wall a good 3 feet just hanging.

The bounce goes both ways. When the slide wants to fly into the camper, the slide flange takes the hit against the side of the camper. When it wants to fly out, well if transit bars are in, the bars take the hit then be transmitted to the side of the camper. If there are not transit bars the slide wants to fly out of the camper so to speak except it can’t pivot beyond the support of the slide that is below the Lippert slide rails. That lower section takes a hit of force

The worst loading for this effect would be, the top cabinets in the slide are filled with real heavy stuff. That moment of inertia in now high. And that combined with a real heavy dinette with the full drawers under the seats loaded to the gills along the full draw that goes right to the inside edge of the slide or some 3 feet away from the wall.

OK all this is theory. It all is occurring but if the slide is made beefy enough to take it, well then life is good. The transit bars original concept I do believe was to take the top bounce out of the slide and put it into the slide wall verses the lower part of the sldie taking the hit. The early vintages of slide design may have been weak and really needed them. Then as slided evolved, they became stronger and the need may not be there any more. Don’t know.

I know mine, I can push on the top of it when closed and it will budge about 3/8” (yes I measured it) after that it is rock solid and I would have to push hundreds of pounds of force to get it to move any more. Hutch tried this test on his 2005 and it was dead solid from the get go. No 3/8” movement. There may be a little there but is was almost unnoticeable. His slide “might” pull a little tighter to the side of the camper.

Mack has reported his was solid as a rock and I take his word it is. Mine is too once I get past the 3/8” less rock solid point.

So, back to the transit bars, I cannot see harm in using them. I already have them so I will keep using them. I wish the guy that told Mack no way to use them would of given a technical answer as to why as I’m not seeing it.

That a long answer to your short question…. Buy I get into these things so I type.

John
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan47
John, I'm sure you know that the slide-out mechanisms are not manufactured by the trailer-makers, right? So it's possible that Sunny changed to a different supplier, or that their supplier made the recommendation for or against the support bars. That being the case, it would have been made without regard to the load that any particular slide is bearing, as you and Jon have observed.
Hi Stan

Yes, the slide mechanism on mine, your old one, Gary’s and Jon’s are made by Lippert Components. They also made our TT frame, however as they have declared, to Sunline specs. They had no problem backing away from the 2005 and foward T2499 frame failures.

Maybe Sunline fan may know if they ever changed from Lippert. Jon’s 2007 also has a Lippert slide frame mechanism.

I really don’t know what changed in the slide design between 2004 and 2005. I can’t find it but then again I may have missed it. It may not have change in later years and the transit bars where a carry over from years back. Lippert told me it was not them who decides if transit bars are needed, it was the TT maker. So it’s a Sunny thing.

Now the build quality…………

First we are talking an RV… and Sunline was still an RV builder. In order to compete in there market they had to follow the RV industry at least. What they did better was the quantity of being better. They where not perfect and we find things not done right, but they are a company that strived above the rest. When I bought my first T2499 new in 2004 I went thru at least 20 different brands. When I walked in the Sunline it jumped out as WOW. And then I dug deeper. They did make it better then the others. Still an RV but at least better.

The methods where more sound in most cases. Like how to build a cabinet drawer or a dinette seat etc. What sold me was, I have something good to start with. I knew I would most likely never go back to my dealer being over 350 miles away, so I had to deal with the rest myself. Sunline was still in business then and I could get factory direct help.

Bascially they cared more about what they where building and took more time to do it better. Now granted there are some areas that is they took a little more time, it would of been even better yet.

Now to why when you buy top of the line and get the basic Shurflo water pump… or no electric tongue jack… I say the same thing about the TT suspension. Using 1950 brake technology, no shocks, no greaseable spring bushings, no way to align the axles. etc. I think this is part of the industry. If they offered the higher end upgrades as standard, they would be even higher priced then they where. I never ordered one from the factory, wish I did, but I would of requested the higher upgrades now that I know what it is I want. And I’m sure they would of sold them to me. I do not have any kind of better answer then I can think of then they pushed it to the most they could and still be in competition with the other guys.

If you ask me, the entire RV industry needs to get better at quality and what is offered. However I love RV'ing enough to take the best I can get and then make it better myself if I have to.

John
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
If you ask me, the entire RV industry needs to get better at quality and what is offered. However I love RV'ing enough to take the best I can get and then make it better myself if I have to.
John
I see your point, and it would be easier if there were more and better information available. For example I doubt there is a repair manual out there that would suggest checking the tightness of the bolts holding the slide rails to the slide compartment. And dealers/manufacturers are not savvy enough to offer people upgrades on components, because doing that would be admitting they don't use the best stuff available. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am more interested in how the RV performs a couple of years down the line than whether it has a glitzy gas fireplace.

I was appalled when I realized there is probably not a single RV available that has a filter on its heating system, for example. One of my near-future plans for the 299 was adding a furnace filter. It also struck me, when I was retrieving my belongings from the wreck, that while there is some insulation in the walls, there is no vapor barrier. When we were snow-birding, we were constantly fighting condensation, and now I understand why.

The most disturbing thing for me is the extent to which the entire industry is controlled by that gang in Ventura, CA that was started by Art Rouse. They publish two competing campground directories, for example. They control virtually all the RV magazines and newsletters, own Camping World, and also own Good Sam. I menntioned this once or twice on RV.net and found that my messages were being, um, modified.

In almost any other business this would be viewed as a violation of the anti-trust laws, but the RV industry is sort of invisible, in spite of the capital investment and annual income of its various tentacles. More on that later...
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:01 AM   #24
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I wish the guy that told Mack no way to use them would of given a technical answer as to why as I’m not seeing it.
Our salesman, or as Kitty puts it so aptly "the stealer", told us more than a few things that have proven either outright wrong or at least ill advised, so I would take his advice on the transit bars with a grain of salt.

I also see no reason why using them would cause a problem. My only thought was if the top of the slide opening in the trailer or the flange on the slide was not built strong enough to support the bar pushing against it, but that's just a guess.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:39 AM   #25
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From what I can recall about the top flange on the slide-out, it will have NO problem dealing with the pressure of the bars. While removing the slide from the 299, it was a tuff son of a gun.

Gary will add to this later I'm sure, but I'm home & he's working

Kitty
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:43 AM   #26
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Believe me... The opening in the 299 was MORE than strong enough, to support the use of transit bars. At first look, I didn't see it, but now I realize why they made it the way they did. I will be taking some detail pics of the construction for everyone to see.

Gary
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:59 AM   #27
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HUM, and he's telling me he's working
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:46 AM   #28
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I get a break... Sometimes....
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:27 AM   #29
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Sure is weird, finding all these pix of my 299 being dismantled...

You guys (Gary, Kitty, JohnB) have learned so much, and documented it so well with photographs. Have you considered publishing some sort of owner/maintenance/repair manual? It could be published electronically with very little up-front cost, and could sell for $20 or more, depending how thorough it gets.

If you want to work on a project like that, I'd be willing to participate as writer/editor. I have more than a decade of experience in that field.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #30
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Here are the pictures of the slide out opening.

This is at the front of the trailer.



Top-front.



More top-front.



Top-rear... Notice the additional OSB, that goes past the 2x6 and the 2x3 to the rear of it.



View along the top. There are actually two pieces of wood above the OSB. The ceiling panels are sandwiched between them.



View looking forward.



This view is of the rear of the slide opening. It shows the 2x6 and the 2x3.



The aluminum flange around the opening is screwed to both the 2x6's and the OSB. There are screws about every 4-6 inches.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #31
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Ok, I am just going to start ignoring you guys til you start speaking English, lol! Seriously, whew! what a lot of info to digest.

Ron & I looked all over the TT, and cannot find any tension bars anywhere, so we are hoping that the reason they were not included is because it was one of the last ones to be built in Dec. 2004, so perhaps they had already changed their system by then.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:34 PM   #32
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Question??? Did Stan's TT have a walk on roof....I don't remember reading that anywhere but then I may have missed it.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:04 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Question??? Did Stan's TT have a walk on roof....I don't remember reading that anywhere but then I may have missed it.
Answer!!! The rear bedroom was walk-on. From the bathroom forward, there was only rubber roof, which was glued to bud-board. There were scraps of wallboard all over the roof, but nowhere near strong enough to walk on. Also, wherever there was a roof-mounted fixture (Antenna, etc...) there was OSB around where they were mounted.

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Old 12-03-2009, 07:31 PM   #34
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Ron & I looked all over the TT, and cannot find any tension bars anywhere, so we are hoping that the reason they were not included is because it was one of the last ones to be built in Dec. 2004, so perhaps they had already changed their system by then.
It could not have been built in December, 2004 and be a 2004 model. 2004 model year production ran from May, 2003 to May, 2004.

Are you sure you have a 2004? If you actually have a 2005, which would be possible with a 12/04 build date, then that would explain why you wouldn't have them.

Here's a 2004 T-264SR:


Now here's a 2005 T-264SR:


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Old 12-03-2009, 08:57 PM   #35
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Alice did you submit your VIN # to Jon....he can determine the year from it.....he is sooooo good at doing it he could probably do it in his sleep.

Also he collects data about the coach, color of interior and I'm sure he'll chime in with what he would like.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:21 PM   #36
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.....he is sooooo good at doing it he could probably do it in his sleep.
Actually he is so good at it I think he does do it in his sleep... I have never seen any one rattle off so much spec stuff on any brand camper over so many years as our SunlineFan.

He walks the talk of his screen name....

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Old 12-04-2009, 05:16 PM   #37
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Yup, one of the first things I did was to submit our VIN to John, and it was him who told me that it was one of the last ones built in Dec. 2004 - or am I wrong, John??

Our dealer told us it was a 2004, so that is what we are going by, and the photos above sure look like it.

Serial #1LC 2S2M254D2 75988, but then again -

I just checked something online and there was another one advertised in an Auto site. A 2005 264SR has the VIN # 1LC2S2M215D275780 (this is not ours).

Can you reconfirm this please, John? (and this time I will write it down!)

It sure would uncomplicate things for me/us. TKX
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Old 12-04-2009, 05:36 PM   #38
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Hi Alice,

I'm very sorry I didn't remember you had submitted it. You do indeed have a 2004. But, I really doubt it was built in December of any year. I don't have any month/year recorded for yours. If I told you that, I have no idea what I was thinking. Yours was built very close to JohnB's 2499, which was built in May, 2004. I don't know the exact completion date of John's to know if yours could have been built in April or May, but either way, it was one of the two.

To know for sure, check the sticker on the outside of the coach up on the front left corner, on the sidewall (not on the front). It should be about half way up, about the height of the striping. If it was built to RVIA (USA) specs, then the sticker will be white with the month/year in the upper right corner. If it was built to CSA (Canadian) specs, the sticker will probably be silver and the date will be in the same place.

However, regardless you do indeed have a late production 2004. Maybe I told you that and you thought December, 2004 as being the end. They could have indeed not included the bars because it was late, because it could be a CSA, or it could be because the dealer was informed by Sunline before they sold it that they were no longer needed. There's quite a few factors that could attribute to them being gone, as well as the previous owners just throwing them out/misplacing them. I can't think of any other Canadian members with SR's, so unfortunately we can't confirm with anyone with a CSA SR to know if they originally had them or not.

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Old 12-05-2009, 09:15 AM   #39
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Thanks for the VIN. Your coach is close to the end of the 2004 model year...there were probably less than 100 2004 coaches built at the Denver plant after yours.
I guess I did assume that a year went from Jan-Dec. Anyway, I did physically go outside (in the pouring rain), and our plate says April 2004. Now we all know.

NOW, with this info - should we have tension bars somewhere in the tt?
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:46 AM   #40
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Alice,

My tension bars were nothing more than lengths of 3/4 inch EMT (metal conduit) with crutch tips on each end.

The trick to making your own would be determining the right length. They need to be a fraction of an inch longer than the space, so they will wedge at a slight angle.

If I were starting from scratch, I'd buy a pair of those pickup truck cargo retention bars and use them. They have a bigger point of contact, and should not leave skid marks when they are installed and removed.

Cheapest place I have found them is Harbor Freight. IIRC, the minimum length of one of these is at least six inches longer than the space they need to fit. So you will need to modify them by cutting the tubing, and perhaps drilling a new hole for the bullet catch that retains the rough adjustment.

The other advantage of this setup over the EMT and crutch tip is that the rubber pads on the pickup bars should last forever. I had replaced the crutch tips at least once, when the end of the metal tubing had punched through them.

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