Worn out hitch

[jpspaz]

Ok John, here goes. The trunnion bars are 1200 lb bars. It was set up by the dealer with no gear but it did have propane and a battery on board. We loaded it with gear and used it as set up for a couple of years. Then I felt that the front end of the truck was a little light so I went up a link. I did that again a couple of years later. When I replaced the truck with the 2011 I simply kept it at the same spot, 6 links under tension. We went on a few short trips last year, nothing long distance so the mileage with the new truck has not been all that much. (As for what we have in the front storage areas, really not that much and the same stuff since day 1. In the lower pass through I keep all of my hitch stuff on one side with some small boards for under the jacks. On the other side is our outdoor carpet and some kids sand toys. Inside over the bed we keep some blankets and a couple of pillows.)

As I was making the adjustments over time I just figured it was a combination of hitch wear and wear on my truck springs. With the new truck I guess I expected to go back up a link or two but that would have made it too sloppy. I really have no idea if the truck springs are exactly the same, but I assume they are. Like I said, the Armada has had minimal changes since it was new in 2004. If anything, there should be an improvement I would think.

[jpspaz]

By the way, check the specs on the 2005 if you have them. There is some dispute over whether the trailer is an '05 or '06.

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

By the way, check the specs on the 2005 if you have them. There is some dispute over whether the trailer is an '05 or '06.

Does your VIN end in 5D27xxxx or 6D27xxxx?

Your avatar pic looks '05.

[jpspaz]

I'd have to dig up the paperwork to check. It really doesn't matter at this point, but I think someone pulled a fast one on me. I can tell you that my title and other paperwork says '06 but there are other things that suggest it's an '05. We were promised an '06 and the unit was ordered from Sunline with our options. In the end we got what we got, regardless of what model year it actually is.

[Poppy & Nana]

Well jpspaz, I ordered an 06 T1950, picked my colors and what we wanted in the TT and when it arrived it was an 07 with an 06 color scheme....go figure...when the dealer realized it was an 07 he wanted to charge us more money I told him no we ordered and 06 at such an such price and if you want more for the TT then we'll just wait until what we ordered comes in...we walked away with an 07 for no more money!!!!

[jpspaz]

Interesting stuff....makes you wonder.

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

I'd have to dig up the paperwork to check. It really doesn't matter at this point, but I think someone pulled a fast one on me. I can tell you that my title and other paperwork says '06 but there are other things that suggest it's an '05. We were promised an '06 and the unit was ordered from Sunline with our options. In the end we got what we got, regardless of what model year it actually is.

It's right on the side of the trailer on the sticker there. Walking out there is probably easier than digging for paperwork or a registration. Since an '05 would be a T-267SR and an '06 would be converted to a T-276SR, there's a difference of about 10" in length, and surprisingly, the 276SR is lighter than the 267.

Originally Posted by Poppy & Nana

Well jpspaz, I ordered an 06 T1950, picked my colors and what we wanted in the TT and when it arrived it was an 07 with an 06 color scheme....go figure...when the dealer realized it was an 07 he wanted to charge us more money I told him no we ordered and 06 at such an such price and if you want more for the TT then we'll just wait until what we ordered comes in...we walked away with an 07 for no more money!!!!

Kathy, you had an '06 1950 with the '05 Autumn Sunset. They did have a few '06s built like this, but it appears to be limited to smaller trailers (1950-2499) and a couple Tran-Sports. I've not heard of a slide trailer done like this, but that's not to say it didn't happen.

[Poppy & Nana]

Jon...if you say so....I guess you are right 'cause he 2499 was on 97!!!! Glad I gave you all the info when I had it!

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

Ok John, here goes. The trunnion bars are 1200 lb bars. It was set up by the dealer with no gear but it did have propane and a battery on board. We loaded it with gear and used it as set up for a couple of years.

Then I felt that the front end of the truck was a little light so I went up a link. I did that again a couple of years later. When I replaced the truck with the 2011 I simply kept it at the same spot, 6 links under tension. We went on a few short trips last year, nothing long distance so the mileage with the new truck has not been all that much.

(As for what we have in the front storage areas, really not that much and the same stuff since day 1. In the lower pass through I keep all of my hitch stuff on one side with some small boards for under the jacks. On the other side is our outdoor carpet and some kids sand toys. Inside over the bed we keep some blankets and a couple of pillows.)

As I was making the adjustments over time I just figured it was a combination of hitch wear and wear on my truck springs. With the new truck I guess I expected to go back up a link or two but that would have made it too sloppy. I really have no idea if the truck springs are exactly the same, but I assume they are. Like I said, the Armada has had minimal changes since it was new in 2004. If anything, there should be an improvement I would think. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\John\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image002.png[/IMG]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

(From your prior reply) I suspected the issue was both wear on the hitch and wear on the truck suspension, although it was equipped with self leveling air shocks in the rear. Last year I replaced my truck with a new 2011 Armada. Basically minimal changes to the vehicle since 2005. I kept it on the same link and even tried to go up an additional one but it was too much tension.

Hi jpspaz,

Sorry this took so long. Work has been off the wall lately and eating into my SOC habit…

From what you are describing here are a few things that “might” cause what you were seeing on your old truck. And if I am correct, may in the future become an issue on your new truck. You can check this out now and maybe prevent the issue.

Would you by any chance have any pics of your old truck and camper hitched up and ideally close enough we can zoom in to see from the rear bumper of the truck to about the LP tanks? I can spot it if it was showing up.

OK so here goes. You tell me where I go wrong or add some more to this so we can hone in on the problem. Too bad you were not so far away, I’d come over and look at it with you.

I looked up the 2005 version of your camper. TW was 795 in 2005 and listed as 750 in 2006. So my estimate of 833# for an 06 could be another 45# in 2005 or 878#. Both are close for the empty camper with battery and full LP gas before you add gear.

Your truck receiver is rated at, 1,000# in WD mode and you have 1,200# WD bars and you have rear air shocks that kick in and level out the back of the truck. We will refer back to this combo below.

Here is something I would recommend you do. Get the truck and camper weighed. When you get close to doing this, let me know. There are 3 sets of weights you need in sequence to get on this 1 trip to the scales. From this weighing (costs about $10) we can see what the WD settings are doing on your truck and we can get a loaded tongue weight (TW).

I suspect 2 things may be going on. Either both at once or either of them separately

1. Your loaded TW may be more than you think. I’m always amazed even on my own when I go the scales how much stuff weighs…. Your loaded TW could be over 1,000# without too much trouble getting there when you are starting in the 850# range before loading up camping gear. I know you have shown us there is not that much up front bedroom however until you weigh it, you really do not know. You have 1,200# WD bars so they can lift more than the 1,000# that your receiver is rated for without too much strain. You would not feel it much if the TW was over 1,000# when hitching up.

Many OEM revivers can get weak over time and more so if you are at or over the rating. When they get weak or have more weight than the rating, they flex up or down more. Sometimes small cracks can start in the 2” pin box attaching area or at the frame brackets. When the receiver flexes up only a few degrees beyond where it was set when WD was adjusted, then it can reduce the WD settings. I have seen this personally several times on camper buddies trucks and one right here in my yard.

You can spot excessive receiver flex when you hooked up by the angle of the pin box. This is why I was asking about the pics of your old truck hitched up to see if I can spot it.

2. Here is the next thing that can aggravate item 1. Air bags or air shocks. We have not talked about how you set the WD on your truck. It seemed for the 1st time you got it, the dealer set it up and you may have not made any adjustments even after you loaded the camper. Your air suspension kicked in, raised the back of the truck, things looked fine and thought all was good.

It is often not understood how WD and air bags/shocks can work against each other. Here is the problem. A WD hitch when adjusted properly can return the weight to the front axle of the truck that was removed by the heavy TW loading on the rear axle. This is one of the main purposes. When the front end comes back to or close to unloaded weight, the rear of the truck can be 1 ½ to 2” lower than when unhitched. The rear being lower is common and normal.

Then the air suspension kicks in and raises the back of the truck as the sensors on the suspension think you added a bunch of weight in the back as cargo. If you were 2” down and it lifted it up 1 ½”, still 1/2 “ down from standard ride height, the WD was just greatly reduced. You see the truck as close to level and think all is good. But some of the weight that should of moved to the front axle no longer is and is still sitting on the rear axle.

With the WD no longer set correct, the 2” receiver pin box does not come back up to the normal operating location. It hangs down more than normal. Now towing down the road it flexes up and down which is normal, however it is starting lower then intended. So when you go over bumps or dips it goes beyond it’s normal limits. And after doing this enough times it can approach it’s yield limit and start permanent deflection, lose some of it's stiffness or small cracks develop.

Normally when you hitch up a heavy TW in relation to the rating of the receiver the pin box will flex down at a good angle when WD is not engaged. Then you engage the WD and it transfer weight off the rear of the truck by putting a large torque (twisting force) into the receiver and shifting weight to the front axle. When your done setting the WD hitch to return the majority of the lost weight from the front axle, the 2” pin box will be rotated back close to horizontal where it started from or a few degrees up. 2 to 5 degrees above normal position is common. 7 to 8 and beyond can point to issues.

See here in these pic the angle of the WD shank. Now in this case I had pin box slop. Meaning the fit of the 2" shank pivots almost 4 degrees before it ever takes up the play. This is a 1,200# TW using 1,200# WD bar and there is approx 3 to 4 degrees up from unhitched.



This side you can see it better.


Those pics show normal.

If your pin box is angled down a lot due to the air shocks unloading the WD or really high, (angle up) due to excess flex in the receiver, then you can lose WD on the truck due to the pin box angle. Thus needing more links to get back to where you use to be.

If you had to change 2 to 3 links worth of chain tension on the WD hitch and did not change weight in the camper then something was flexing excessive. It can normally be the receiver. 2 links is a lot of WD transfer or lack of it.

Basically the camper loaded TW is a lot higher than you think and or the air shocks are unloading the WD that may have been set correct at one time. Setting WD on a TV with self-leveling suspension takes extra steps to over adjust the WD so when a portion gets unloaded by the air system it comes out about right. A trip to the truck scales can show this. The truck may be is nice and level however the TW was or was not transferred correct and you need to make another WD adjustment.

Do you remember looking at the pin box on the older truck and was it at any angle up or down when hitched or even unhitched?

Next time you get hitched up, take some side pic’s of the hitch and receiver so I can see what you are up against. Pic’s I these case really help point to things you may miss.

Does any of this seem to fit? Glad to explain more if needed.

Hope this helps

John

[jpspaz]

Thanks John. The only wear I noticed on the old truck was wear to the lock pin holes. There was no obvious cracking or bending to the hitch receiver. Everything also appeared level. In regards to the air shocks, I kind of used that as a guide. Meaning, I would try to put enough tension on the WD bars so that the truck would go back to level when hitched up without activating the air leveler compressor. If it went on only briefly, then I would still think I was okay. If it had to inflate for longer, I felt that the majority of the weight was riding on the air shocks which seemed to result in excessive bouncing going down the road. My assumption was that this was negating the positive effect of the WD hitch. Am I on the right track?

So aside from the possible tongue weight issues, how can I adjust the WD properly with the air leveler set up I have?

[JohnB]

Hi jpspaz,

What you describe you do to set the WD with the air off, is the conventional way. And your right if the air compressor kicks in and lifts the truck, it is reducing the WD effect.

Have you ever set the WD by measuring the fender heights and if so what is the front and rear before and after setting the WD and then what do they change when you start the truck and the air does it's thing?

When I say measure fenders heights, like this. Straight up through the axle to the inner fender well


The tape measure get's us in the right ball park, however the scale tells all on WD.

The front end of the truck should be at or just above the unhitched height, the rear of the truck should be below unhitched and no air shocks active. The rear should never be above unhitched. The truck may or may not be level. Level does not necessarily mean WD is set right.

In the case of self leveling suspension it will put the truck to a tolerance of what it thinks normal is. It has a range of normal which "might" be within 1/2". I do not know the Nissan tolerance that fits other brands.

Here is an "if". If you set the WD with the air off, adjust to get the front fenders at or just above the unhitched height. Remember this set distance number. Now turn the truck on. Let it do it's leveling thing. Measure the front. If the front rises up a lot, 1/8" to 1/4" or more from where you set it with the air off, then yes the air shocks are negating the WD as they are lifting the back end up reducing the spring bar tension.

If that happens by much of an amount, ( we are not talking 1/16", more like 1/8ths 1/4" or more) you may have to over adjust the WD to compensate for the air shocks. So when the air kicks in and removes some of the WD that the front is back to unhitched or just above it. As FYI, your fender height can change +/- 1/8" driving around the block as they are on springs. But when static before you take off towing, an 1/8" means you lost some weight. Just remeasure as a starting point each time you set WD.

I found an online manual for you truck. Do not know if it is the same as yours. Check what came with the truck
http://www.nissanusa.com/pdf/techpub...san-Armada.pdf

On page 9-21 it states the max TW is 910# for 2 x 4 and 900 for 4 x 4 with the tow package. Or 10% of the tow rating.

And then on 9-23 it says the vehicle may have a 10,000# rated receiver and 10% of that would be possibly the 1,000# you found. Then it throws in the disclaimer that the chart on page 9-21 overrules the sticker rating.

Some times, (many times) on 1/2 ton type SUV's they put the max tongue weight which is driven by the rear axle rating. The GAWR-RR may hit this rating when a 910# tongue weight is added and not be governed by the actual receiver.

On page 9-22 they talk briefly about setting the WD. They state to leave the truck running and then set WD. This varies across the industry. Some say leave it off, others say let it run. Nissan seems to want it running.

I "think" the air shocks are only on the back of the truck. Correct? If so then regardless of which method you use, air on or off, the main thing is what is the front of the truck doing? Again you may need to compensate for the air shocks.

When you get time, the truck scales may sort this out. If you are heavier then you think you are and over what ever the manual says that came with the truck on TW, the receiver may be flexing more when your towing down the road. It may look OK when your standing still, but may flex more unloading WD when your towing. You will only see it bent and stay that way after it exceeded the yield limit of the steal.

2 to 3 chain links is a bunch of loss of WD. The hitch head would have to have gross wear in the sockets or trunnions to loose that much.

If you happen to have an angle finder or protractor put it on the hitch shank with all the play lifted up before hitching up. And on the truck bumper. Write both down. Then hitch up and read the change in angle of the shank and the bumper. Need the bumper as the truck may squat and you need to subtract the truck difference to get a actual shank flex angle. If it bends up approx more than 5 to 7 degrees that points to potential receiver flex when static. If it is 10 degree, ah yup you can be over twisting it standing still.

Next time you hitch up, take some pics of the hitch. Something else may jump out. Right now the only thing that I can back into short of knowing the actual loaded TW is the air suspension working against you or the receiver flexing.

Let us know what you find out. We all learn from these things.

Hope this helps

John

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

The only wear I noticed on the old truck was wear to the lock pin holes.

If you use a traditional style hitch pin with a clip or lock on one end and the shaft bent on the other end, that'll be causing it. As you start/stop/hit bumps, that pin moves around and the bent part is forced into the hole, which expands it since the pin is harder than the hitch steel. I don't believe it has much to do with weight of the trailer, in fact it might happen less with a heavier trailer. If you had a little open trailer or something with no wd, that hitch would bounce around a lot more and move the pin around a lot more.

The only way to eliminate this is to use a locking pin that has a cylinder end opposite the lock instead of the bent shaft.

[jpspaz]

Thanks Sunline fan--I do use it to tow a boat also. John--yes the air shocks are in the rear only. I've never measured it, will have to do so once the snow melts. What do you think of upward play between the receiver and the shank? I know that there is some play because the tolerances are what they are. I think it's normal but that would seem to have an effect right?

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jpspaz

What do you think of upward play between the receiver and the shank? I know that there is some play because the tolerances are what they are. I think it's normal but that would seem to have an effect right?

Different brands have different play. My Putnam XDR receiver on my K2500 Suburban had 4 degrees when new... A very good receiver for strength just the play more then really needed.

You can see the air gap above the shank and the top ID of the pin box before hooking up


Then I lifted the shank up until it stopped. 4 degrees..


This excess play is adjusted out of when we set the WD. The heavy up force rotates the shank up tight agasint the pin box and then WD starts. This is why I stated if you measure the shank angle for flex to account for this play to not get a false reading. When all the play is taken out by lifting the shank up, this is the new zero position in relation to the truck bumper. WD only starts once all the play is gone and then the angle upward is the receiver flex, again in relation to the truck bumper. All receivers flex and are suppose to. Just not excessively.

On the WD hitches that have 10 to 15 degrees of rear head tilt this is not a problem. However the Reese round bar head with the hex rotating washer is a problem. That round bar style head only has a max of about 7 degrees rear tilt. If 4 deg of it gets used up taking the play out leaving you a whopping 3 degrees to work with.

No worries on the Reese trunnion bar head you have, it has 15 degrees. If you actually use all that head tilt, there are other issues.


I do not see the excess play in pin box fit up causing any of the issues you are seeing. All the play is taken up during the adjustment process.

Hope the weather breaks soon. This rotten weather is getting old...

John

[jpspaz]

I took some basic measurements today and here's what I found. After hooking up the rear went down about 3/4" with the front moving about 1/8". That was before the air levelers kicked on. I found that after driving it down the street and parking again, the measurements were slightly different. The air levelers kicked on briefly, but it was actually lower in the rear when I came back. Maybe another 1/4". I wonder if where I parked and measured had anything to do with it. My driveway is not perfect.

[JohnB]

The suspension has a "range" of what it will settle in at for a given load. Front fenders can easily change +/-1/8" or more just driving around the block and remeasure. Springs never exactly settle in the same spot. They do however repeat within a range.

In your case, the air suspension in the rear adds another level of range. 1/4" may be normal.

[jpspaz]

Ok, well I won't worry about it then. Thanks.

[LanCoPA]

We bought an Armada this week, after months of looking for the right one. It is a 2006 LE, so has the 9000# tow package with the self-leveling suspension. So this info will be useful as I set up my WD hitch now. Course, we just have a T1950, so this vehicle is probably overkill. But I'd far rather have it this way than not having enough vehicle for the job.

[JerryJ]

A question for the masses.

I'm asking this on behalf of my son for his trailer truck combo.

He has a Ford Expedition of GCW of 15,200 lbs
His trailer is 7601 lbs dry weight, (max allowed is 9,200lbs) so he's well within specs.
He just bought his trailer last Nov and this is the first summer that he's towed it for camping.
Recently.... he noticed his rear end sagging (ya I know the jokes ).
The weight-distributed level was near perfect when he first bought and towed the trailer.

His truck has factory airbag suspension and all is 100% and was just checked by a Ford Mechanic today on his analyzer. No codes.

We're wondering if the Reese torsion bars may have lost their elasticity, tension, springiness? Does/can that happen?
Being used, when he bought the trailer, also used, we're wondering if he might have ended up with the wrong torsion bars (too light a duty). It was a private sale not a dealer. We know they're Reese but there's no model or ID on the bars.

What's the best suggestion to find out why his hitch geometry is sagging? Yes, he has adjusted the various chain links

[Jim-Bev-2363]

OK. Adjusting links was my guess but that has been checked.


Second guess: Bars in upside down?