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Old 06-28-2020, 10:06 PM   #61
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Russ, I think I figured this out. Re-reading this in your post,

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
John, Here's the drivers side rear spring, #3 is equalizer/shackle and #4 is the rear frame hanger. So on this spring, #3 spring didn't clean up as well as other 3 eyes. Looking at the eye openings, they look pretty good. But when you look at #3a picture, you can see it didn't clean up as well. The eye almost looks twisted a little, one side of the eye start overhangs the leaf and on the other side underhangs the leaf. Not sure if that's from the way the eye was originally formed, or was it over stressed? You can see that the tubing isn't square in the last picture. Also the center to center measurement is 23-5/16" on one side and when you flip it over it's 23-3/8".

Snip...
As I said earlier the free arch height is ~1/4" less than Dexter new spec of 3.50" which would account for some of the extra length.
I can always fall back on bronze bushings. Do you think the eye #3 needs to be bored out more and squared up? I thought about filling in the part that didn't get machined out with JB Weld like Tod did. If I was using polyurethane, it could take up some misalignment. I just don't know if typical suspension dimensions and accuracy are closer to 0.0xx" or x/32 - x/16" if you know what I mean.
When your friend setup spring 3 to ream out the angled end on 3A, did he:

1. Find the full length of the centerline of the old hole that was on an angle. Then clamp the spring to the mill bed on that angle so the reamer was in line with the old centerline, or if he had a mill where he can tip the head on angle to the bed to follow the old full centerline. Then ream following the old angled centerline as best it could? This would of took a lot of fiddling to get the spring to ream on the old centerline exactly when more than likely, all the others hole with no twist in the spring setup quickly and square to the bed.

Or

2. He set the spring up on the mill table so the long main spring leaf was was square to the mill bed. Then found a center of the hole, but not the total centerline along the angle the old hole was at. The reamer being square to the bed, would ream as straight as it can but not totally follow the old centerline of the hole across the full 1 3/4".

I think he may have done no. 2 or close to no. 2 and when he reamed the hole, it cut truer to being where it was supposed to be, but the old hole centerline and the reamer are not following the same path. That would explain why there is such heavy wear at the 02:00 location, while there may be some wear there, what we are seeing is left over old hole that is not exactly in line with the new reamer center. It would leave a wedge cut like we see.

This eye shows the reamer went very well on center with the old hole.


This hole could be from the reamer not following the exact same centerline angle of the old hole.


If that is correct, the good news is, the spring did not have heavy forces grinding/ pushing up at the 02:00 location as part of worn dynamics of the suspension. It then explains the wedge, it is from the machining process, not the wear process.

It comes back to, you can do the Devcon fill to help eliminate any possible issues. If the Devcon cracks out over time and there is not a lot of force up in that area during normal towing, the bronze bushing could still be OK as there is not a lot op force pressing it into the unsupported area. Pressing any thin walled bushing with high force into an unsupported back up area can cause it to fail prematurely, like the heavy wear at the 06:00 area on worn springs.

This may explain the tapered wedge of what looked like wear.

John
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:46 AM   #62
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Quote:
That pic of the area that did not clean up, and you mentioned it may be 0.010" deep, WOW! If that is 0.010" deep now, it was a lot more before you had it reamed. If the standard spring eye hole is 0.687" (please confirm, I did not measure new bronze to verify) and you reamed the eye to 0.750" , that is 0.031" larger, plus the 0.010" that would be around 0.041" wear from an original unworn spring eye? I'm just making sure I understood you right, it is 0.010" deep now after the reaming?
In reply to your comments here. I'm assuming standard spring eye standard to be close to the nominal 11/16" id (0.687"). I measured 3 bushings, they averaged 0.692". I think the eye is probably a little larger than nominal, 0.005" is a really tight interference fit. As for my reamed hole, I had to temporarily install it to hold my drop axles so I could remove other springs, I didn't want to cut wires to lay axle on ground and not enough jacks or blocks. I will check it again later when I get new bushings. By memory, I thought I checked the wider un-reamed area with a telescoping gauge across bore and got something like 0.760", but I did this quickly and maybe I got a bad reading, or not remembering correctly (I don't trust my short term memory these days).


Quote:
2. He set the spring up on the mill table so the long main spring leaf was square to the mill bed. Then found a center of the hole, but not the total centerline along the angle the old hole was at. The reamer being square to the bed, would ream as straight as it can but not totally follow the old centerline of the hole across the full 1 3/4".

I think he may have done no. 2 or close to no. 2 and when he reamed the hole, it cut truer to being where it was supposed to be, but the old hole centerline and the reamer are not following the same path. That would explain why there is such heavy wear at the 02:00 location, while there may be some wear there, what we are seeing is left over old hole that is not exactly in line with the new reamer center. It would leave a wedge cut like we see.
John D. (machinist) is 84, and not quiet as sharp as he was 10 or 15 years ago, but probably forgot more than I will ever know. When I was there for trying the reaming on the first hole, I didn't think he had the setup very accurate and rigid. I made some suggestions (the student telling the mentor what to do) on his setup because I was concerned about lining the hole up with his reamer. John set up some v-blocks and leveled the spring with his mill top after checking his mill was level. The spring was in a vise that squired up the leaf width vertically with the table in the other direction, leaf eye just hanging over vise to allow the reamer to go all the way through hole. The test trial (a quick plunge cut) just to see if the HSS reamer would cut, was not close enough to the eye opening. So he got out his dial indicator to try to center the hole. That isn't very accurate because the wear at end of eye. I told him to just try to center the reamer as well as he could. He told my the reamer, which was a long one relative to the chuck, would tend to follow the path of least resistance. I also noticed that some of the spring packs had a little over-hang on the main leaf, so if he didn't account for that and tried to level right there, it could be off level several degrees. Anyway I agree with your conclusion that part of this may have been the setup, and some from the eye being twisted right from manufacturing.

For the curb side springs, I will ask John D. to make sure he levels the main leaf (not on overhung leafs) and maybe indicate the center of the eye where the bore is probably the roundest, and will hopefully center the reaming as best it can. I think you know that machinist don't like trying to angle the mill head only as a last resort. It's time consuming and a bit of work to reset it exactly true and squire with table top. And trying to match the angle by adjusting the way the spring is clamped on table is probably just as time consuming. I'm bring over the other 2 springs today for John to ream, probably will get them back tomorrow.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:12 PM   #63
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Hi Russ,

OK good. From your description that spring eye 3a, is as we suspect, it is not worn that bad. What you have is the end result of the reamer following a slightly different centerline and created the wedge look from the reaming process and not all from being worn that bad. Got it.

You are on the right track to get this fixed up better than new. When you are all done, odds are high this will last you as long as you want to keep the camper and then some.

Keep up the good work. Good post too.

John
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:26 AM   #64
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I thought I show the curb side reamed leaf spring eyes. All of the holes reamed nicely around the other side, so I saw no need to show more pictures. When I went to check the hole size with the test tubing pieces I used on the first set, the hole was to tight. I had some undersize 3/4" tubing that was ~0.7475", or about 2 thousands smaller than the last set, those went in nicely. This shows that the HSS reamer was wearing from the tougher spring steel. I checked squareness of bore and the free arch length and everything checked out nicely, very similar to the front spring on the drivers side.

On the first set of springs the mill setup (last picture) was the same, but the method for finding the hole center was different. On the other set of springs, the first spring we tried to eyeball, not very accurate, but adjusted before going to deep. The 2nd through 4th eye, John used a dial indicator to try to figure out centers, but the holes were badly worn, thus spring eye #3 had a fairly wide un-reamed area on one side of the eye. So I discussed my observations about the ~1" center of the hole is probably fairly round as this has the least amount of wear from bolt wobble. So John used a tapered like this,
https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/1-507-135
in his mill arbor to align the mill head with the center of the inner part of the eye. As you look at these new pictures you can see eye's 1 and 3 don't have a nice parallel opening for start of eye, this could be from wear or from the roll not being formed squarely from the factory. The fact of the matter is you would have to ream a larger size to totally clean up all surfaces. With previous discussions John B, he thought it would be best not to go much larger. As you may remember, I was originally thinking about reaming out to 13/16" to accommodate polyurethane bushing I bought.

John, I did measure the wider un-reamed area on spring eyes 1 & 3, both measured close to 0.760", or about 10 thousands over. Even in the bottom of #4, it measures ~0.755". I did look at these with a 10x magnification, it's very rusty, but I think these may be do more to wear than spring eye forming problems. I think the drivers side may look a little better from the reamed standpoint. I also measure the thickness of the eye's in different places (id to od), the weren't very consistent, the holes aren't as centered as I would have thought. So there is probably no conclusive way to adjust the reamer center, except maybe by eye.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200629_Curbeye1.jpg (66.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200629_Curbeye2.jpg (46.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200629_Curbeye3.jpg (61.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200629_Curbeye4.jpg (56.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200629_MillSetup.jpg (86.3 KB, 7 views)
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:10 PM   #65
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Thanks for the pics Russ.

It looks like you have 2 more wedge shaped non clean up spring eyes. And these are at the bottom, the 06:00 position.

It seems they are in the 0.010" range deep which is not really great. If you are going to Devcon the twisted 3a spring eye at the 02:00 location, may as well do these 2 as well.

My thoughts are, I am more worried about going to the 13/16" reamer and making the spring thinner in the high load area then if the Devcon does not pan out. If the Devcon does not hold and crumbles out, medium odds exist over time the 06:00 wedge of 0.010" wear may crack the bronze. You have thicker bronze which helps some, but it still may crack over time. But that bronze crack has low odds of leaving you stranded. A cracked spring eye which also has medium odds has the potential to leave you stranded.

You said the spring eye did not mic out very even all the way around the curl. I would suspect that could be a left over from the forging process of making the eye. That have to form that curl and get it closed very well. And they are trying to do all that and "not" machine the eyes, so they make the eye inside as round as they can. Something has to give in the manufacturing process, so the curl wrap thickness may be what gives more tolerance.

You are doing great!

Thanks

John
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:20 PM   #66
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John, received my new National Bronze (NB) bushings today and was amazed at the quality compared to the MorRyde (MR) bronze bushing that came with the HD shackle kit, see pictures. The MR bushings seem cheap in comparison to the NB. Beside the look of the bushings, I noticed a huge difference in weight. I calculated the volume for each bushing and weighed both of them for comparison. The MR bushings have a volume of 0.215 in3, weighing 21g. The NB has a volume of 0.338 in3 (not taking into account the spiral grooves in the id that would be less volume), weighing 46g. The NB is 1.57x more volume, but over 2x more weight. The density alone suggest a more robust bushing for the load it carries. Also I'm attaching 2 links to bronzebushing.com for pictures and specifications. Also the McMaster Car link you gave me was useful for material specs.
https://www.bronzebushings.com/cb-09...od-x-1-3-4-oal
https://www.bronzebushings.com/aa-62...od-x-1-1-4-oal
So I've kind of assumed that the MR bushings are either SAE-841 or SAE-863 oil impregnated bushings. The SAE-863 seems to be the more likely material because of the higher load rating. If you're asking how I came up with my conclusion about the oil impregnated bushings (besides the look and density), I put the MR bushing on the stove and within a minute, oil was seeping out.

Since you seem to have a good knowledge of bronze and are a mechanical engineer, are the bushings that Dexter and MorRyde selling right for the application? They seem like they are very lacking especially when not fully supported in the eye area. I get it about keeping cost down, so here's the retail comparisons for the Dexter/MorRyde bushings compared to the SAE-660 with no grease grooves, and the same SAE-660 with Spiral grease grooves.
I compared the Amazon price for Dexter Bronze Bushings - $12.99/4pcs
National Bronze Bushings sold by bronzebushing.com CB-099-14 - $21.12/4pcs (plain)
ECB-SL - $32.92/4pcs (spiral grease groove).

Do you think the quality of the National Bronze is more suitable for the load application to justify the higher cost bushings. I really like the Spiral grooves in the ones I bought, but not everyone would want to spend that much extra money. I just think it will be easier to grease in the future, and there won't be any question if the bottom of the bushing @ 6 o'clock is lubricated or not.
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File Type: jpg 20200701_1DexterBush.jpg (29.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200701_NBBushing.jpg (30.8 KB, 2 views)
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:18 PM   #67
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Hi Russ, some comments below

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
John, received my new National Bronze (NB) bushings today and was amazed at the quality compared to the MorRyde (MR) bronze bushing that came with the HD shackle kit, see pictures.

The MR bushings seem cheap in comparison to the NB. Beside the look of the bushings, I noticed a huge difference in weight. I calculated the volume for each bushing and weighed both of them for comparison. The MR bushings have a volume of 0.215 in3, weighing 21g. The NB has a volume of 0.338 in3 (not taking into account the spiral grooves in the id that would be less volume), weighing 46g. The NB is 1.57x more volume, but over 2x more weight. The density alone suggest a more robust bushing for the load it carries. Also I'm attaching 2 links to bronzebushing.com for pictures and specifications.

Also the McMaster Car link you gave me was useful for material specs.
https://www.bronzebushings.com/cb-09...od-x-1-3-4-oal
https://www.bronzebushings.com/aa-62...od-x-1-1-4-oal

So I've kind of assumed that the MR bushings are either SAE-841 or SAE-863 oil impregnated bushings. The SAE-863 seems to be the more likely material because of the higher load rating. If you're asking how I came up with my conclusion about the oil impregnated bushings (besides the look and density), I put the MR bushing on the stove and within a minute, oil was seeping out.
The MR bushings, yes I have bought and installed them too. I can tell by the looks of them, they are “sintered bronze” self-lubricating bushings. See here for sintering if you had not heard of that process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering

Basically, sintering bronze (or other metals) is powder type of process used to create bronze metal as opposed to melting and casting it. The process creates small air spaces between the bonded partials. The bronze is then submerged and most likely vacuum applied in a chamber to impregnate lubrication in the small spaces. It makes for a self-lubrication bushing.

Oilite is a big name in sintered bronze in the machine tool world. https://oilite.com/ They have been doing sintered bronze for over 80 years. Now, there is a lot of competitors doing sintered bronze. They have been around so long that when talking shop, the slang called out an Oilite bushing as common lingo for describing a self-lubricated bronze bushing.

They offer a 9/16” ID by 11/16” OD but in the standard line only seem to go to 1 1/2” long
https://oilite.com/Our-Products

They make custom stuff to, and they may have been a supplier to the trailer industry at some point too.

I’m not sure how you backed into the SAE 863 oil impregnated bushing as a possible MR bushing.

The NB SAE 841 bronze has a yield strength of 11,000 psi (11 ksi). SAE 841 Oil Impregnated Bronze Bearings | National Bronze Mfg..

The standard Oilite bronze is also 11 ksi bronze which seems to align with the NB numbers and is what I would expect the MR bushings to be.

The NB SAE 863 is 22 ksi (double the strength of the 841) SAE 863 Bearings | National Bronze Mfg..

At this point, short of testing or other verification, we really do not know what alloy they are using. I would more assume (guess) the MR bushings are closer to the SAE 841 powdered metal bronze. The trailer industry is very cost competitive and going to higher grades of bronze is sort of out of character.

As to the weight, the sintered bronze should weigh less than an all cast bronze. The all cast solid bronze does not have the air spaces for lube like the sintered bronze does. I do not know the reduction of mass factor by the sintering process, but it for sure is something less then solid cast bronze. That could be why the weights are so different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
snip..

are the bushings that Dexter and MorRyde selling right for the application? They seem like they are very lacking especially when not fully supported in the eye area. I get it about keeping cost down, so here's the retail comparisons for the Dexter/MorRyde bushings compared to the SAE-660 with no grease grooves, and the same SAE-660 with Spiral grease grooves.
I compared the Amazon price for Dexter Bronze Bushings - $12.99/4pcs
National Bronze Bushings sold by bronzebushing.com CB-099-14 - $21.12/4pcs (plain)
ECB-SL - $32.92/4pcs (spiral grease groove).

Do you think the quality of the National Bronze is more suitable for the load application to justify the higher cost bushings. I really like the Spiral grooves in the ones I bought, but not everyone would want to spend that much extra money. I just think it will be easier to grease in the future, and there won't be any question if the bottom of the bushing @ 6 o'clock is lubricated or not.
The bushing Dexter and MorRyde are selling fit the application for a certain service life. They do work, just they may not last as long as we want them too. An area which I feel has issues with the application, is the spring eye and how they are applying the bronze bushing in that setting. The thin walled bronze bushing must have 100% support on the outside to reach the longest life it can for wearing. Our problem is they crack and fail from lack of support, not sure we have much info on them only wearing to failure. I myself have not yet wore one out.

Your reaming the eyes will give the bronze a better fighting chance to work well. The SAE 660 (or C93200) is a stronger bronze then the sintered SAE 841 if that is what Dexter and MR are using. The added strength will help it wear longer. While it is stronger, it may not be enough to overcome the lack of being fully supported on the outside.

There is this topic I will add that may help you decide. The mechanical strength of the cast SAE 660 (or C93200) is a min yield of 20ksi and 35ksi tensile for continuous cast. And 14 ksi yield and 30 ksi tensile on centrifugal cast. They may use either process on making bushings. This Copper Industry web site is my go to on generic bronze specs.
https://www.copper.org/

https://alloys.copper.org/alloy/C932...=facetedsearch

The SAE 841 sintered bronze at 11 ksi yield and 14 ksi at tensile by National Bronze site. (matl spec at the bottom.) https://www.nationalbronze.com/pmdesign.php

What I was looking for is the difference between the yield and the tensile. The SAE 841 is only 3ksi difference.

The SAE 660 is 15 to 16ksi pending manufacturing method between yield and tensile.

The yield stress limit means when the metal goes beyond that state of stress, the metal is weakened and may not return to its original state/shape. How far beyond yield and how many times beyond, effects when the metal will break.

When the tensile stress limit is exceeded, the part will fail. How fast it fails depends on how far and how many times you go over the limit.

When the yield and tensile limits are very close to each other, the metal can very quickly go into failure. It sort of acts like being more brittle. It will crack sooner rather than bend several times and then crack. Point being, the SAE 660 will hold up better than the SAE 841.

The cost, this one is harder to justify when we are talking a camper. Either of those bronzes well-greased will do better than the nylon. There is a time factor in here too (your time that is). While cost wise, the cheaper bronze may need to be replaced more often than the better bronze, you have to pull the camper apart to do it. And if the pins wear through the cheaper bronze faster, then you end up with pins and spring wear to fix which is more cost.

It is not that hard (for me at least) to make the jump from SAE 841 sintered bronze and pay the extra to get SAE 660 as the better material. Now to even pay more for the grease grooves, they for sure make the lubing nice, no question. But I have yet have a bronze bushing fail due to lack of lube. They have cracked out first. For me, I would save the upcharge for the grove. But, it will be your choice and going to the groove is a good thing too. It just costs more.

I hope this all does not confuse the matter worse. You did a great job on the reaming. If you want to Devcon fill the two eyes with the support gaps, that will help give you a better chance of no issues.

Not to upset the apple cart even worse, after thinking about the sintered bronze, there is a process that is used to build up steel when it is worn off. It is called spray metal and there are different types of it, all with pros and cons. These work well on large shafts that has had a bearing go bad and they eat up the shaft badly. Spray metal builds up the surface and then you grind/machine down the buildup to size. I have never heard this done on a leaf spring, (an internal bore verses and external shaft) but it may be possible. The cost though, most likely will be more than a new leaf spring. Just mentioning it as FYI. Not to actually try an find a spray metal shop in your area.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:08 AM   #68
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John, first of all I apologize for taking up so much of your time, I know you respond to many other posts on this forum, besides all of your projects going on. My point with some of the things I bring up is to help other people that may go through this situation at some point in the future. I personally like to dive in and look for other peoples input and experiences when I'm trying to figure out a problem.

Thank you, you answered my question in a very detailed manner. I am aware of Sintered metal as a fabricator, just not in the detailed engineering aspects. My exact point was assuming the eye is not formed properly or is wore out, my gut feeling was sintered metal would crack much more easily than a solid machined piece of brass because of the loosely formed structure that holds the oil. I think in your more detailed explanation, that you verified that.

I know I tend to over build things like the spiral grooved bushings, but I thought that someone replacing worn out nylon bushings might be better off by using the solid SAE 660 bushings. I know the manufacturers wouldn't spend the extra money, but an individual probably can justify paying double the cost for something I think is better suited. From my less technical background, my gut just says these would be a better choice. The oil in the sintered bushings seems like a nice idea, but if the bushing cracks first, the oil isn't helping much.

Please let me know if you think I should not post so many details that probably many people may not care about.
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:45 PM   #69
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Hi Russ,

No need to apologize. I enjoy the techno stuff. If there is something I can do to help someone or point them in a direction that helps them help themselves, then great! Plus I learn new things in the process. The time spent typing is all worth it. No worries.

Your post and the process you are approaching this is very good. Yes, the detail nature of thing things we get into may be more then some need or want, but we have a lot of members who read our posts. They read them so their is interest. This post now has over 2,100 views as of this reply. The topic is of interest that is for sure.

Please do not stop the detail nature of what you are wanting to do and post. It really helps others learn and think about their own camper. This topic of worn suspension is big in the RV industry. It is not just a Sunline camper issue.

You are right, I went back and looked in the Dexter axle manual and sure enough, they recommend every 6,000 miles to inspect the suspension for wear. This is off their web site and is a 7 page flier on the suspension.
https://www.dexteraxle.com/docs/defa...rsn=d8dfe048_0

On PDF page 3 of 7 (bottom of manual page says 67 of the main manual) it states during the inspection that worn spring eye bushings need to be replaced. (see the bottom of the page)

That is a big statement. From my own axle work and seeing enough campers with worn out suspension, 6,000 miles the nylon is going to be heavily worn. If you do not replace the nylon bushings then, by the next inspection at 12,000 accumulated miles, there are high odds the nylon is worn through and spring pins are wearing into the spring eyes creating issues that your post addresses how to deal with.

They are right on with the 6,000 miles, but what they did not say is, what you need to do in order to visually inspect? In the early stages of the wear, you cannot see worn bushings unless you take the shackles apart, or drop the spring eyes out of the hanger and look at the pin and bushings. If you change the nylon every 6,000 miles, odds are high you may never have a worn out suspension.

6,000 miles can be easily accumulated in 3 to 4 years of an active camping family on just weekend trips. Do you or does anyone know someone who does a full suspension inspection and changes the nylon in their system every 6,000 miles? Do they even know to look at the suspension?

I will go out on a limb here and say this, there is a very large percentage of all the campers with leaf spring suspension using nylon bushings which have 8,000 to 10,000 miles on them, have some level of wear that is close to being a problem or already is. Think about how big this issue is?

It is hard enough to get the the need across that the axle bearings need to be repacked and the brakes adjusted routinely, not alone just take the suspension apart and look at it.

The RV industry is so cost competitive, not much is going to change unless the buyers start demanding better products that last longer at a reasonable price. Why can't bronze bushings, quality spring eyes and wet bolts be installed as standard equipment on a new camper? The cost at the OEM level is close to almost nothing over the nylon in the selling price of the camper. There is no difference in labor between the 2 bushing styles when building the camper, just the parts are different. Even sadder is, a large $75,000 fifth wheel with a 14,000 # GVWR can have the same setup the smallest tandem axle travel trailer.

OK, I have ranted enough on the reality of the RV industry. Keep the post detail coming. The topic has interest.

Thanks

John
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Old 07-04-2020, 07:43 AM   #70
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[QUOTEYou are right, I went back and looked in the Dexter axle manual and sure enough, they recommend every 6,000 miles to inspect the suspension for wear. This is off their web site and is a 7 page flier on the suspension.
https://www.dexteraxle.com/docs/defa...rsn=d8dfe048_0

On PDF page 3 of 7 (bottom of manual page says 67 of the main manual) it states during the inspection that worn spring eye bushings need to be replaced. (see the bottom of the page)][/QUOTE]

You have a newer version of the manual, my manual only goes up to P52, version 11/95. At least as they update, they add some warnings, my manual has some of the same statements, but don't state the importance with the big yellow caution boxes, making it easy to skim over and not notice. I agree though they really need to add more about how to check and what your looking for, some reference point that people can relate to. I guess that maybe the manual could be written for an audience that they assume know or have training in suspensions (mechanics), but not for the average owner.

I have some other things pressing so won't be working on trailer for a few days. I have all the parts now, just need to do something with those 3 unsupported eyes, than I'll document putting things back together.
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Old 07-06-2020, 06:07 PM   #71
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Yes, Dexter has updated their tech manuals in recent years. And expanded the wording. I see this is all for the better. Just we need a little more in the suspension bushings area.

As you said, ideally they can give a guide of how much wear is to be expected and when to change out the nylon bushings short of the pins wore through the bushing. By then, it is already too late.

To do true preventive maintenance, you need a guide to change wear items "before" they go into total failure. The 6,000 mile mark is a good check, but they should bracket it with when to replace. They do on brake linings and brake drum diameters, just we do not have it on suspension bushings.

If you have to take it apart to inspect it, you are not that far from doing a little more work and just change the nylon. From all I have seen, you will not make it to the next 6,000 mile inspection point without one or more of those bushings making it to grinding pins into spring eyes.

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Old 07-09-2020, 05:42 PM   #72
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Russ,

To your questions on do you need do anything with axle alignment when you put the suspension back together?

Correct me if I state anything incorrect as I may have missed something along the way. Before you took the suspension apart, you looked at your tires that had 10 years on them and you did not notice by eye any strange wear problems.

Assuming I have that correct, that is great news! It helps tell you, you have good odds the spring hangers are welded on correctly and that the axles do not seem to be bent or majorly out of alignment. Checking tire wear very closely can tell a good story of how well the system falls in or out of spec.

With that, do you need to, or want to check the alignment? The thought being, the suspension system “seems to be” non-adjustable so why would I want to check it?. Here are some thoughts.

You have done a good job, above and beyond what most would do to get your suspension fixed to be better than new. Now you want to put new tires on, and get the best wear life from them you can.

A prudent step that will not take much more time and effort at the stage you are in with the camper all apart, is to do an alignment check during and “before” final tightening of the U bolts. Unless you check the alignment, you really do not know how good you are or not. The hangers are only welded on so accurately. They could be over the edge of there spec. not allowing the axle to be where it should be.

Last fall I helped a camper friend do an axle flip and suspension rebuild on his camper. He had Dexter axles and springs, very similar and maybe even the same as yours. I did an alignment check and found I could easily be in or out of Dexter’s spec. just by how I positioned the axle and tightened up the U bolts.

On my T310SR, that camper was setup on Alko axles with American Rockford springs. In this case, there was a full 1/8” clearance between the Alko axle seat hole and the Rockford center spring pin. You could really move that setup a lot.

It seems Dexter has a closer fit between the axle seat and the spring center pin, then the Alko/Rockford setup, but even on the Dexter setup there was enough play in the system you could shift the alignment in or out of spec when tightening up the U bolts. Or if you never paid attention to the alignment, you could be even more out of spec.

I can attest to, if the wheels and the axles are setup at or within the Dexter specs, tire wear is very good. The tread wears flat across the face. You can get some outer edge wear which comes from the scrubbing of the tandem wheels going around a turn, but it is not much. After fixing my T310SR, the alignment was within +/- 1/64” of nominal with my adjustable axle seats versus the whole +/- 1/16” Dexter allowed. I am not sure how far out of spec it takes to start getting notable wear. What I had on the T310SR before I fixed it, was real bad, so I know what bad can do. The friends camper I worked on was at the + 1/16” and he had acceptable wear for the miles he had his old tires before he changed them. Point being, you can be on the edge of the spec and be good. How much over the +/-1/16” I do not know yet. There are a lot of campers I’m sure out of spec, just those tires may age out before they wear out and folks really do not look at tire wear much unless they have a problem.

This spec of Dexter’s is what I used/use for axle alignment.


Granted this only checks the axle to ball alignment and axle to axle. It does not measure the wheel toe or camber of the system. You can do that too if wanted, but it will not affect the axle mounting.

If you want to get into more on how to do the axle check/setup, let me know can type some more.

Here is the link to my post on how I did this. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...ics-10043.html

Tod, took some of his work to the next level and did a good job on it. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...ued-18949.html

One tip on the U bolt tightening in case you did not know it, tighten the U bolts in an X pattern and bring them up even and in torque stages until the final torque. This helps make them clamp more even and not shift the axle position as much.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:43 PM   #73
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Thanks John, I'll be checking the alignment once I get things back together. I liked Tod's tongue setup using the ball to measure to front axle, so I'll be using that setup.

I've been busy with other things so I haven't done much recently. I had a little time today to checkout a Car Reamer I got from KBC Tools: https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/5-057X-030
I bought this to finish reaming the curb side leaf spring eyes that were a little undersize. I bought the Car taper reamer (instead of a straight 3/4" reamer) because I thought it may have other uses in the future. I also wanted to try this tool to see if it would be a potential way for someone to ream worn leaf spring eyes in place. The taper could be used to align with the center of the eye where the least amount wear is.

I used the Chevy leaf spring I first tried drilling earlier in this thread. This spring already had a 7/16" hole in the 5/8" thick leaf, so this was large enough for the tip of the reamer to get started. I clamped this so it was rigid in my drill press. I set the pulley's to the slowest speed. I used plenty of cutting fluid with a constant medium pressure feed, if I pressed to hard the belt slipped. This reamer went through fairly easy all the way out to 3/4".
I did a test fit with the 0.750" tubing I used in earlier post, the new reamed hole was a nice fit, not to tight but not loose either. I also tried the new bronze bushings, they wouldn't fit, which they shouldn't. After measuring the bushing should be about a 0.0015 to 0.002" press fit.

I think someone could setup a fixture to clamp the spring eye and hanger or channel and use a portable drill guide jig to ream them in place. The drill guide could look something like this, obviously would need to research the right one and modify it to fit.
https://inndafe.com/products/portabl...smart_campaign. The drill would have to have a high torque motor. Obviously taking them off would be the easiest, but some people may not want to deal with axle alignment after re-installing leaf springs. Reaming the spring eyes wouldn't require taking as much material out as I did on this trial, you would nominally only be taking out ~1/16" (11/16 to 3/4"). I will be using this reamer after I try Tod's epoxy repair on the eyes that didn't cleanup. I might try leaving one as is and using the epoxy on one as an experiment to see if the epoxy is overkill. Considering I'm not using sintered metal bushings, it is probably less likely that the machined SAE 660 bushings will crack.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200712_reamersetup2.jpg (82.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 20200712_reamedHole.jpg (54.9 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20200712_Reamfit2.jpg (71.0 KB, 5 views)
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Old 07-15-2020, 04:10 PM   #74
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Hi Russ,

Wow, a real Delta drill press. Hang on to that one! It may be old, but they built them back them.

That reamer looks like it did a real good job and the tapered end can make it easier to deal with the center like you said and cut easier too. The spiral flutes I can see it cutting smoother.

Thanks for sharing and the links. I sense I will be into this on one of my project campers as odds are favorable the suspension is original and the pins are grinding into the springs.

Thanks

John
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Old 07-15-2020, 07:45 PM   #75
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Today I worked on installing bushings in spring eyes. First to back track a little, the leaf springs I'm working on are the second set (curb side) that were reamed by John, my machinist friend. John's reamer must have been getting worn and the holes on these springs were still a few thousands undersize. So I bought a new Car Taper reamer to finish reaming eye out to 0.750". After reviewing comments from John B and looking at the eyes with the 3/4" fit test tubing, I decided it probably wasn't worth the time to fill the small un-reamed area on 2 of the eyes. The bushings are well supported by probably 95-98% of the surface area, and the fact that the bushings I'm using are thicker and not sintered metal like the Dexter or MorRyde bushings, the chance of cracking is very minimal.

I set the leaf springs up in my drill press to ream out the final few thousands of an inch. This would be the same setup for reaming out the full amount from worn out bushings wearing out the leaf eye. This was a good learning experience. It's really tuff to get this setup perfectly square and true to the reamer. The leaf spring isn't perfectly parrallel and the eye is deformed during forming the eye, so you have to make minor adjustments to get as close as possible. I had to remind myself, I'm not machining a tight tolerance component like watch gears or something highly precision. Keeping length of the spring clamped tight to the top of the table and the width squared up is probably the easiest to do. When you check 4 quadrants of the eye for squareness to the table you will find one side may be square and the other side off a little. Also make sure that none of the other leaf's are overhanging the main leaf, causing the main leaf to not sit flat on table. I had to hit them with a hammer to move as they pivot on the leaf spring guide bolt in center of spring. Three of the leaf spring went right through easily using lots of cutting oil. The 4th one gave me a little trouble, I couldn't tell if I hit a hard spot, or the reamer wasn't aligned well with the original hole causing binding. The reamer stalled several times 1/2 way through. The leaf eye got hot so I left it cool down while I ate lunch. When I got back I tightened the drill motor belts and re-aligned the leaf eye and was able to finish hole. The hole fit test was fine, didn't seem to be oversize.

Before I started working on reaming, I place the brass bushings in the freezer, this will shrink the od and make it easier to press in. I decided to use my Smithy mill head as a press, it has a heavier duty quell and more solid table than my Delta drill press. I clamped the spring down just like the reaming process. It isn't as critical to get the leaf spring eye perfectly square for pressing bushing in, probably if you have a second person to hold other end of spring, you wouldn't even need to clamp it. I used some marvel mystery oil to lubricate the eye to make pressing in easier, but also to protect the eye from corrosion. If you look at the pictures, you can see the frost on the cold bushing. These bushings were a little shorter than the bushing eye width, so I used a socket with the same diameter of the bushing and hammered it in a touch more to center bushing in eye.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200715_ReamSetup1.jpg (80.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_ReamSetup2.jpg (57.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushPressFit1.jpg (62.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushPressFit2.jpg (61.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushPressFit3.jpg (82.3 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushPressFit4.jpg (64.0 KB, 3 views)
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:24 PM   #76
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I just wanted to add a couple of other pictures with a few more comments to follow up on the last post. Three of the four pictures are just both ends of the leaf's with the bushings installed. The last picture is with the HD shackles placed on the new Road Armor equalizer and one of the spring eye's.
As I noted earlier the distance between the bolted hangers is 1.847". The Road Armor thickness is 1.828", which is a nice snug fit. The leaf spring eye's average width is 1.75", +- ~1/32". The picture shows a washer (0.076" thick) on one side, it seems to matchup well with the equalizer thickness. I found some 9/16" id x 1-1/16" od x 0.032" thick washers that I ordered to center the leaf eyes in the spring hanger and shackle and still have enough clearance to pivot easily. I won't get the washers for a few days, then I'll start installing these leaf springs on the curb side of the trailer. I'm working on making a jig for the ball mount to set the alignment, following Tod's and JohnB's directions from other suspension threads. These are both referenced in links on earlier posts.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushingInstall1.jpg (84.6 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushingInstall2.jpg (77.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_BushingInstall3.jpg (78.5 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20200715_EqualizerLeafeyeFit.jpg (66.3 KB, 5 views)
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:19 PM   #77
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They look great Russ!

Good job and thanks for sharing.

As an FYI

Last weekend I helped a neighbor out his new Keystone 5th wheel camper. In his case it had to deal with the fresh tank vent hose spewing water out of the fresh tank towing down the road. More on that in another post.

But, I was shocked to see, Keystone had grease-able bushings, HD shackles and what looked like an OEM version of the Road Armor equalizer. I'll post a few pics of the setup. I'm a little amazed Keystone did this as a stock setup, this was not their high end camper either. But, they did not put shock absorbers on, and they are using the 4,400# axles on a 10,000# GVWR camper . Well , just maybe the RV world is starting to move the needle towards a little to better suspension.

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Old 07-17-2020, 09:56 AM   #78
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Hi Russ,

Here is my neighbors 2019 Keystone Laredo 5er suspension. I looked up the brochure on his camper, and Keystone does list they supply the Road Armor equalizer on this model. The camper had a build date of 10/2018. The color is blue verses the yellow, and the Road Armor sticker fell off but I can see a witness line/shadow of where it use to be.

I could not find any brand name on the HD shackles. Dexter and MorRyde generally stamp them to show off the brand. This chassis setup is all LCI, so maybe LCI supplies OEM HD shackles and wet bolts Or Keystone added them themselves, not sure.

But, there is one thing seeing this, without the sticker on the outer side of the equalizer, I can clearly see there is no grease fitting on the center pivot bolt hex head of the equalizer arm. Your pic shows bronze bushings on the end of the arms which line up well with wet bolts. But why did they not install a grease fitting in the center arm? Did they put a bronze bushing or Never Fail in it? Good question.






On my older Trail-Aire equalizer, LCI bought them out and started making them. They have nice bronze bushings in them but never put a grease fitting in the parts of the equalizer lower pivot arms. I ended up adding wet bolts in those locations as some folks reported the lower arms would corrode in place and break the arms.

Here is the back side of the Trail-Aire when I installed it originally.


The outer side. The 2 pivot bolts are on the bottom of the equalizer that hold the lower arms on.


You can see the 2 lower pivot bolts with grease zerks in them that I added later on once I found out the problem. This pic was from a suspension bushing check I did in 2018. You can see the grease all over the bronze bushings.


LCI must of caught on with the Trail-Aire as I have later on seen grease fittings installed on the lower pins. But my older one did not, so it most likely was an upgraded feature along the way possibly from field complaints of bound up lower arms.

By any chance does your new Road Armor have a grease fitting on the center arm bolt? Any idea what kind of bushing they installed?

The only reason I can think they may not have added a zerk, was ward off grease on the rubber. Not sure what rubber compound they use if lithium grease even affects it. They allow the top center bolt to be used with wet bolts and grease would/will come on the top of the rubber. It just seems odd they would stop short on the bushing in the center arm that has the most motion on the entire suspension.

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Old 07-17-2020, 01:27 PM   #79
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Hi John,
I just went on the LCI website: https://support.lci1.com/road-armor
From this link, go to the manuals button. The blue Road Armor is shown as OEM, but doesn't say to what manufacturer.

Now that you mention the pivot point not having a grease point I wonder if that's intentional. I called LCI back before I bought my Road Armor Equalizers to make sure they would fit. I did have some discussion about the bushings for the hangers and shackles but never thought to ask about the arm pivot. But I remember a comment the tech guy said that I questioned in my mind. He said you could unbolt them to take them apart, but they are not rebuildable. I thought the guy may not know the product line very well since LCI sell a lot of other components and accessories. But if you look for individual parts, I didn't see any. If you go back to the first page of this thread where I posted a short video of the Road Armor, if you start the video and immediately pause (this is only shown for a second or so, so you have to be quick), they show the sides removed and the internal parts. You will see a small bushing and the center shoulder bolt. I wonder it they used an Oilite bushings there. The arms only supposedly travel 1-1/2" up or down (3" total travel) if you watch the full video. Possibly they believe more of the movement is in the shackles or hanger bracket. Makes me wonder if I should take them apart and consider putting a wet bolt in. To bad I just installed the curb side equalizer and pressed in the wet bolt. Didn't install any other components or even put the nut on and torque it yet.
Your comment about petroleum grease getting on the rubber is a valid one. Rubber may not be compatible with regular grease. But the answer to that is using silicon grease like the one I show in a link in an earlier post on this thread.

One thing I noticed on the hanger and shackle bushings in the Road Armor body, it looks like they have a center grease groove going around the inner diameter of the bronze bushings. So LCI seems to be trying to do all of the right things, except the center pivot .

Another kind of annoying thing I noticed when installing the center wet bolt in the curb side hanger. This bolt came with the MorRyde Xfactor hanger brace I bought. The brace has a 1/2" plate that the hanger bolt goes through on the back side of the hanger. So I appreciated that they gave you a 1/2" longer wet bolt to go with the bracket, but someone wasn't thinking when they drilled the perpendicular grease hole in the shoulder. Instead of leaving the hole the same distance from the bolt head as the shorter bolt and just adding a 1/2" of shoulder length for the back side, they moved the hole so it is centered on the bolt shoulder. What this means is the grease hole in bolt is not centered with the centered internal grease groove in the bushing when installed in hanger. Granted that someone could argue that being different manufacturers of components, things may not line up. But I would argue, why would you have the grease hole in the bolt shoulder closer to the side instead of being centered regardless of whether there is a groove or not, that doesn't make sense to me. If you look at the attached picture, it's kind of hard to see the hole in the black shorter bolt, but it's at about 1-3/16" on the scale. On the longer bolt (supplied with Xfactor), the hole is at 1-1/2".
Anyway I didn't want to deal with drilling a second hole, so I just installed the bolt with the hole at the 3 o'clock position. This wouldn't be an issue with the bushings I bought for the leaf eyes, but I wasn't going to change the bushings out in a new Equalizer.

Some of these questionable designs makes me a little perturbed sometimes.
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File Type: jpg 20200717_Wetbolts.jpg (58.1 KB, 4 views)
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:56 PM   #80
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If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm like to know every aspect of what I'm doing on projects and how things work (sometimes to detailed). So I had to remove the Road Armor pivot bolt even though I know it probably voids the warranty. As you can see, the pivot shoulder bolt is the same 9/16" diameter as the hanger and shackle bolts, but there is only a 1/2" length of bronze bearing surface, compared to the 1.75" on the other hanger and shackle bolts. That seems like a very high load area since its less than 1/3 the surface area of the other bushings/bolts.

The other pictures just show the grease groove in the hanger/shackle bushings, and I show a picture of me installing the knurled end of hanger wet bolt I installed yesterday using a ball joint press.
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File Type: jpg 20200717_Roadarmor.jpg (57.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20200717_CenterPivot.jpg (19.2 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20200717_GreaseGrove.jpg (34.8 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200716_PressKnurledNut.jpg (88.3 KB, 4 views)
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