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Old 06-17-2020, 02:29 PM   #41
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John, in researching things related to my trailer suspension modifications, I ran into an interesting website. I actually sent the guy some questions and comments about what I'm contemplating with the leaf springs. So I'm not going to respond to yours or Tod's last post until I get some more info together. But I thought this may be of interest to you, this guy (I believe he must be a mechanical engineer) seems to have a very strong understanding of trailering suspensions. Also if you go to the bottom of the web page, it has a link to Synthesis Engineering Services that I think this guy may be part of.



https://mechanicalelements.com/trail...-torsion-axle/

https://mechanicalelements.com/overs...ailer-springs/
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Old 06-22-2020, 06:40 PM   #42
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Hi John, here's some answers or comments to your last post.


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Getting back to you. The urethane bushing idea by itself is good but I have one reservation on the urethane (see below). I do have concerns over taking that much strength out of the leaf spring eye. (cracking the spring over time) I have no data or access to finite element analysis any more to run stress simulations on the reduced spring eye.

Here is a thought, have your machinist take out minimum amount out of the worn spring eye to clean up the hole and make it true road. Now you have something good to start with. Wearing pins with failed bushings create similar metal lose in the eye so the risk is lower that there is any issues on the spring. Have each spring hole when cleaned up recorded for bore dimension. He may be able to find the worst spring to clean up and match the rest to that final clean up dimension so they all end up the same. Or mark each bore and record. Point is, you know the final spring bore on each marked spring.
I brought 2 of my springs to my machinist friend John D. today. I explained the issue with the leaf eye and talked to him about different ways to approach this, but looking for the easiest (least expensive) way.
John D. did a Rockwell hardness test with a diamond point, came up with a 42-48 Rockwell hardness (didn't ask him what scale) and he said he could use the 3/4" HSS reamer he already had. John D. set it up in his Bridgeport mill and indicated it to get the center. The reamer went through the 1st hole easily and cleaned up nicely. I will take some pictures when I get them back. I originally was thinking about doing this on my Smithy, just looking for advise from John, but he offered to do them for such a low price I am letting him do them. Besides I may not have had enough height or machine rigidity to do it on my Smithy Granite


Quote:
Then ask your machinist if he can machine the urethane bushing OD down to fit the new cleaned up spring eye bore. Then light press/size to size fit in the urethane bushing and make sure you can still get a new spring pin inside it. He most likely will have to make an arbor (a round pin the right diameter to insert in the bushing ID) to chuck up in the lathe to allow him to turn down the OD. Or you try it. Tool bit configuration and spindle speed is different for rubber/urethane I do believe. He should have some insight to this setup as urethane cuts different then steel. It's more gummy and cuts different. Our shops guys knew all the right tricks on how to cut rubbers etc and I did not pick up any of them.

I do not see any issues trying the turned down urethane. Keep a lookout on it as the testing goes. If it starts failing, then before the pins start wearing the spring, take out the urethane and install custom bronze bushings. I would suggest using Ampco 18 aluminum bronze. OR generic aluminum bronze C95400-TQ50 heat treated to TQ50 state.
I will be machining all of the bushings myself. I tested machining some polyurethane end-link bushings and it went well. I used a HSS cutoff tool and high rpm with the bushings on a mandrill I made from a bolt and it came turned down nicely. I will have to practice to get the right od when the mandrill is released (bushings under pressure are actually larger than when relaxed), as you loose some of the diameter.

Quote:
Now to the reservation on the urethane. I can see the urethane having a level of working on the ends of the springs at the front and rear hanger. The bushing at the spring eyes at the shackles and on the equalizer may have issues with the thin urethane.
I am going to leave the brass bushings that came in the new LCI Road Armor Equalizer. I think that since the equalizer has nice round holes, that there shouldn't be the same issues with the leaf spring eye where there is kind of a exaggerated "V" where the rolled eye starts. With wet bolts and heavy duty shackles, hopefully will last a long time.

Quote:
Here is why I think this. I may be out in left field, but it is the preconceived notion I have for you to think on. The urethane will react different then a free to pivot pin in a bronze or other plastic clearanced bore bushing. The ends of the springs at the front and rear hanger pivot/ rotate very little so the urethane may flex within itself for that small movement as the urethane will grip hard on the pin and spring eye (no slip at the pin or eye). At the equalizer area, there is a lot of movement of the equalizer and the shackles. That much movement I think will tear up the thin urethane as that material can only be flexed so far within its cross section thickness. Since the urethane will grip the pin hard, it acts like a brake once the bushing thickness cannot pivot any more and will over stress the bushing to fail in time.
So I agree with parts of what your saying. First off though from what I've read, the Polyurethane bushings originally came out as a replacement for bonded rubber bushing in leaf spring eyes. The rubber is bonded to the metal bushing that is held stationary in the hanger. The rubber only twist but doesn't slide or turn. The Polyurethane replacement is suppose to grip (pressed fit on the od of bushing to id of eye) but the id of bushing is greased to allow the polyurethane to move on the pinched metal sleeve that is a hair longer than the polyurethane bushing. Some companies even are putting grooves in the bushing to allow grease to be stay stored for better lubrication. So I think I'm going to use the polyurethane (since I already bought some) on the front and rear hanger. I agree that there isn't much movement here and since the bushing will be a little thicker than stock bushings, it will absorb some of the shock over rough roads and less likely to deform. I thought about the more significant movement on the equalizer side of the leaf springs, I will use a different material. I'm debating on whether I want to use brass/bronze or I'm thinking about Delrin. This is used in some high performance truck and car suspension that can be ridden on the street. For diehard racing applications they use more bearings or metal bushing since ride quality isn't a consideration. I would use grease fittings with the Delrin. I looked at the Lippert Never Fail bushings for reference, they are a modified Nylon that has some of the characteristics of Delrin, but I heard that some people have had them fail. I think a couple of people decided to use grease with the Never Fail to extend it's life.

Quote:
If you look at automotive lower control arms on some cars, they have very large diameter rubber bushings with a steel pin in the center. The larger the rubber cross section wall thickness, the more rotation the bushing can handle. As the control arm goes up and down, the rubber flexes (that is it rotation) in the sidewalls of the large diameter. And you are supposed to center the control arm in the middle of its travel before you tighten up the center bolt on the center sleeve or it will tear the bushing apart over time as you overtravel the rubber in one direction with the car apart. The over rotation of the rubber causes it to crack. I think this will happen at the equalizer area even on an unmachined urethane bushing in the OD diameter in your pics. See if you can find how much rotation that urethane bushing can handle. If it is only 1 to 3 degrees, there will be a problem. For urethane to work on larger rotation angles, the urethane cross section may need an inch or more.
If you go on some of the off-road 4 wheeler suspension websites, you will see raised trucks that have long control arms and stabilizer bars that require lots of movement just because the long travel of the suspension. The large diameter bushings on control arms, leaf's along with large od stabilizer bars, is where the grooved bushings are used more frequently for grease storage, to allow quieter, smoother sliding action. From my understanding the Polyurethane bushings were never intended to work like the old bonded rubber bushings. The were designed to stiffen the suspension components to track better and provide more stable handling without totally loosing the all smoothness of the ride provided by natural rubber. The polyurethane has some properties that are closer to plastic, with some of the rubber characteristics, but much harder, more durable, and better chemical and UV resistance than rubber.

I remember you mentioned Delrin in one of yours or Tod's threads, do you have any experience with this material, or you just heard something about it. I'd like any knowledge or opinion you may have on this.

Thanks for all the time you spend researching and helping people. I actually saw some of your posts on other forums, I thought I recognized some pictures of your trailer suspension, then I saw your tow vehicle. Even though I may have some different ideas, I appreciate your knowledge and what you opinions are. Thanks, Russ
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
Snip...


John D. did a Rockwell hardness test with a diamond point, came up with a 42-48 Rockwell hardness (didn't ask him what scale) and he said he could use the 3/4" HSS reamer he already had. John D. set it up in his Bridgeport mill and indicated it to get the center. The reamer went through the 1st hole easily and cleaned up nicely.
The hardness is in the Rockwell C scale, known as RC 42-48. That is soft enough HSS will cut it nicely with the right lube etc to extend tool life. Rockwell B scale is for softer metals. There is an overlap between B & C at the ends of the scale.

Some examples, a cold chisel could be a RC 60 - 65. It's hard. A grade 8 bolt can be between RC 33-39, a grade 5 bolt RC 25-34. You can drill grade 5 & 8 bolts without much issue using HSS bits.

Thanks for posting his findings on the springs. That is a lot softer then I would of thought, but again this is the trailer industry and that may be part of why they are softer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
I will be machining all of the bushings myself. I tested machining some polyurethane end-link bushings and it went well. I used a HSS cutoff tool and high rpm with the bushings on a mandrill I made from a bolt and it came turned down nicely. I will have to practice to get the right od when the mandrill is released (bushings under pressure are actually larger than when relaxed), as you loose some of the diameter.
Great! glad this is working. It helps make this test more possible.

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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
I am going to leave the brass bushings that came in the new LCI Road Armor Equalizer. I think that since the equalizer has nice round holes, that there shouldn't be the same issues with the leaf spring eye where there is kind of a exaggerated "V" where the rolled eye starts. With wet bolts and heavy duty shackles, hopefully will last a long time.
That sounds like a plan. What were you thinking of using in the spring eyes at the shackle area?

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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So I agree with parts of what your saying. First off though from what I've read, the Polyurethane bushings originally came out as a replacement for bonded rubber bushing in leaf spring eyes. The rubber is bonded to the metal bushing that is held stationary in the hanger. The rubber only twist but doesn't slide or turn. The Polyurethane replacement is suppose to grip (pressed fit on the od of bushing to id of eye) but the id of bushing is greased to allow the polyurethane to move on the pinched metal sleeve that is a hair longer than the polyurethane bushing. Some companies even are putting grooves in the bushing to allow grease to be stay stored for better lubrication. So I think I'm going to use the polyurethane (since I already bought some) on the front and rear hanger. I agree that there isn't much movement here and since the bushing will be a little thicker than stock bushings, it will absorb some of the shock over rough roads and less likely to deform. I thought about the more significant movement on the equalizer side of the leaf springs, I will use a different material. I'm debating on whether I want to use brass/bronze or I'm thinking about Delrin. This is used in some high performance truck and car suspension that can be ridden on the street. For diehard racing applications they use more bearings or metal bushing since ride quality isn't a consideration. I would use grease fittings with the Delrin. I looked at the Lippert Never Fail bushings for reference, they are a modified Nylon that has some of the characteristics of Delrin, but I heard that some people have had them fail. I think a couple of people decided to use grease with the Never Fail to extend it's life.
Thanks for the explanation on the polyurethane bushing concept. I have never used them in this application. I made an assumption (which was wrong) that the poly worked like the rubber. While some characteristics are close, others are not. The greased pin on the poly ID I would not of thought of.

The Never-fail, do you have any links to those who have reported them failed? I only found one guy who had a large 5'er and he had them eaten up in less then a year. BUT, his spring eyes where junk in my view. There was 1/8" gap in the forming of the spring eye. The eye was never closed. That setup is bad on any bushing, bronze or nylon. There was also some evidence the spring pins were spun and the serrations damaged during assembly. He gave up on the Never-fail and went to bronze, but not hearing back in the next year, those spring eyes would of cracked the bronze.

I would like to see if there are any pics or deeper digging into why the Never-fail, failed on others campers. While I only have one of those bushings in a test on my T310SR, they are not failing like others I have heard and I have a 10K trailer.

I have heard that the Never-fail do not like grease. They are not intended to be greased. But it never mentioned the grease base. There may be an incompatible issue with some greases, but not all.

Delrin, yes I know of it and have used a lot of it. It is a food industry plastic as it can be made in food grade material. It can also be made in non food grade too, heads up if food grade is needed, you have to check which colorants are used as they can derate the plastic. It's not an issue in non food grade applications, just mentioning it.

Delrin is in the UHMW family of plastics but can be machined easier, more stable and last longer in some applications then UHMW. And it costs more than UHMW. But, I have had Delrin have issues too pending how it is applied. Delrin can swell when subjected to a lot of water. That needs to be accounted for in the design if water is present to allow for the swelling. Larger clearance can be needed to compensate when we start talking about 0.001 to 0.003" running clearance. And with plastics, temperature needs to be considered. It will shrink in size being colder and grow in size when it gets hotter. However your parts may be small enough the growing in length and diameter may not be a big problem. A part 10ft long is an issue.

I will say, I feel Delrin will outperform the nylon bushings originally used. How much more, will need a test. When we used to run Delrin against stainless shafting in a rotating application, oddly the steel would wear more then the delrin. Your grade 5 carbon steel spring pins are much stronger and tougher than standard 300 series stainless so you may not see that kind of wear for a long time.

If you want to test the water swell, make a bushing, mic the OD/ID and record the temp you measured it at.(used room temp) Submerge the bushing underwater (at room temp water) for a 24 hour period ideally. Take the bushing out and remeasure. This would be close to worst case of towing in the rain and the bushing swell up. UHMW does not have the water issue but does have a worse temperature expansion issue. Delrin is a little more than half less the expansion rates than UHMW. There are +/-'s to each material.

Here is a cut sheet from Dupont who invented it. This may have more then you will ever need, but may be helpful
http://foremostplastic.com/wp-conten...III-Delrin.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
I remember you mentioned Delrin in one of yours or Tod's threads, do you have any experience with this material, or you just heard something about it. I'd like any knowledge or opinion you may have on this.

Thanks for all the time you spend researching and helping people. I actually saw some of your posts on other forums, I thought I recognized some pictures of your trailer suspension, then I saw your tow vehicle. Even though I may have some different ideas, I appreciate your knowledge and what you opinions are. Thanks, Russ [/COLOR]
I am hoping your tests come out positive. We need something better giving the situation we have. The springs are part of the problem as much as the bushings.

Please keep up posted on how this comes out. Very interested.

Thanks

John
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:08 PM   #44
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John, in researching things related to my trailer suspension modifications, I ran into an interesting website. I actually sent the guy some questions and comments about what I'm contemplating with the leaf springs. So I'm not going to respond to yours or Tod's last post until I get some more info together. But I thought this may be of interest to you, this guy (I believe he must be a mechanical engineer) seems to have a very strong understanding of trailering suspensions. Also if you go to the bottom of the web page, it has a link to Synthesis Engineering Services that I think this guy may be part of.

https://mechanicalelements.com/trail...-torsion-axle/

https://mechanicalelements.com/overs...ailer-springs/

Thanks for the links Russ. Good info and a good source for the future. I read a fair amount on the site on trailer design. I agree with their conclusions on trailer frame concepts. However I did not see a whole lot on trailer suspension wear in the bushings. I only found that sated the trailers used nylon or bronze bushings.
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:56 AM   #45
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The Never-fail, do you have any links to those who have reported them failed? I only found one guy who had a large 5'er and he had them eaten up in less then a year. BUT, his spring eyes where junk in my view. There was 1/8" gap in the forming of the spring eye. The eye was never closed. That setup is bad on any bushing, bronze or nylon. There was also some evidence the spring pins were spun and the serrations damaged during assembly. He gave up on the Never-fail and went to bronze, but not hearing back in the next year, those spring eyes would of cracked the bronze.
You probably found one of the same links I saw from Heartland RV. I've been looking at some many different websites and forums, I can't keep track of them. I thought I may have found a couple of other places that mentioned some failures, but I have to agree that it seems a big part of all bushing failures are from the leaf spring eye. One of the reasons I decided not to buy new springs is most of the new ones seem to be from China. I'm sure there are probably some decent Chinese manufacturers but I think many have a lot to be desired in the manufacturing process and the metal quality. My trailer is 23 years old, but the Dexter springs are stamped made in Canada. They appeared to be in decent shape (other than the eye) and only lost less than 1/4" on the free arch height so I'll see how this works. To bad manufacturers couldn't spend a little more in manufacturing and ream the eye after it is formed, I think that may cure many of the bushing problems.

Quote:
Delrin, yes I know of it and have used a lot of it. It is a food industry plastic as it can be made in food grade material. It can also be made in non food grade too, heads up if food grade is needed, you have to check which colorants are used as they can derate the plastic. It's not an issue in non food grade applications, just mentioning it.

Delrin is in the UHMW family of plastics but can be machined easier, more stable and last longer in some applications then UHMW. And it costs more than UHMW. But, I have had Delrin have issues too pending how it is applied. Delrin can swell when subjected to a lot of water. That needs to be accounted for in the design if water is present to allow for the swelling. Larger clearance can be needed to compensate when we start talking about 0.001 to 0.003" running clearance. And with plastics, temperature needs to be considered. It will shrink in size being colder and grow in size when it gets hotter. However your parts may be small enough the growing in length and diameter may not be a big problem. A part 10ft long is an issue.
Thanks for the link to Delrin pdf, I have looked at this and have found more information than anyone would want. The problem is I don't have the background to understand all of what this means and how you apply it to out specific application. There are literally dozens of formulations for different applications just in the Delrin family. Then throw in the modified nylons (like Never Fail) and it is mind boggling. I believe that the Never Fail maybe under the Zytel nylon resin family. I have found several Automotive and truck websites that use Delrin for suspension and specifically leaf spring applications. The problem is they never tell you what the Delrin formulation# (ie. Delrin 100 vs Delrin 500) they use. The other potential issue is many of the distributers for Delrin don't give all of the information, the may say it's Delrin, but they are using it as a generic name. It's kind of like Channel lock's or Crescent wrench's manufacturer names that are used for generic slip joint pliers or adjustable wrench's. From what I've read I think one of these polymers are the right one, I just don't know how to choose. I was also reading a white paper on polymer failures, and it concluded that usually it because the wrong material is used or maybe the designer didn't have all of the complete or correct design criteria.

I did read something about one of the possible failures to the Never Fail is the moisture absorption you talked about that you observed with Delrin. I thought I also I remember reading a comparison of Zytel (modified nylon) vs Delrin, and I thought that Delrin was a better choice from that standpoint. Again it all comes down to the right formulation for specific design critera, and knowing the correct clearances to have so the bushings don't swell up under certain conditions and cause premature wear. I also saw that certain formulations are better than others for use against different metals in a bushing/bearing applications.

I may try the Polyurethane in both ends of the leaf spring just because I have them and only have to turn od down. The Energy Suspension bushings only come with these little packets of proprietary silicone grease. But from what I've read about these and many of the polymer bushings, the main thing is to use a silicone base grease as opposed to petroleum grease. I found this grease that comes in regular grease tubes to utilize the wet bolts I purchased.
https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-...-syncolon-ptfe
https://www.super-lube.com/Content/I...20Syncolon.pdf

Also many of the websites that use Polyurethane and Delrin suspension bushings recommend grease slots in either the bearing surface or bushing id. I think I may try machining a circular grove around the hole in the wet bolt to better distribute the grease around the circumference with the hole at the 6 o'clock position.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Thanks for the links Russ. Good info and a good source for the future. I read a fair amount on the site on trailer design. I agree with their conclusions on trailer frame concepts. However I did not see a whole lot on trailer suspension wear in the bushings. I only found that sated the trailers used nylon or bronze bushings.
I contacted the guy at that website about bushing materials. I was kind of surprised that he didn't really have much knowledge of using different materials in leaf springs, except upgrading to bronze. Maybe they don't see as many issues with bushings in lighter utility trailers. But I thought you might like the modeling part, that was the main reason I sent that to you.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:52 PM   #47
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You probably found one of the same links I saw from Heartland RV. I've been looking at some many different websites and forums, I can't keep track of them. I thought I may have found a couple of other places that mentioned some failures, but I have to agree that it seems a big part of all bushing failures are from the leaf spring eye. One of the reasons I decided not to buy new springs is most of the new ones seem to be from China. I'm sure there are probably some decent Chinese manufacturers but I think many have a lot to be desired in the manufacturing process and the metal quality. My trailer is 23 years old, but the Dexter springs are stamped made in Canada. They appeared to be in decent shape (other than the eye) and only lost less than 1/4" on the free arch height so I'll see how this works. To bad manufacturers couldn't spend a little more in manufacturing and ream the eye after it is formed, I think that may cure many of the bushing problems.
Yes, It was on the Heartland forum. This link. https://heartlandowners.org/showthre...l=1#post324533

I had to join the forum to see the pics a while ago. The large gap in that spring eye will tear apart most bushings, regardless of material.

My springs on the T310SR are original too, the eyes are tight, but it is still not a true round hole as the eye is not machined. The lack of roundness and the fact the spring bore is not a full 1.75" long due to the formed radius on the end, sets up the bronze for cracking. The bronze has to be 100% supported full length and full diameter. They are not all bad, but some are.

Thinking about this now, if the press fit is still good for the bushing to the spring eye, trimming the length of the bronze to custom align/match with length through the spring bore, could help reduce the bronze end cracks as the bushing is then not in a unsupported end situation. Does not fix the bore out of round issue, but does help the end crack issue. Never thought of that until now. Not that hard to do and the lack of small amount of bushing will not be an issue.

The only way I would buy new springs, is to call the spring manufacture and talk to them about what they can hold for tolerance on the eyes. Even if I need to pay more for a US made one, made right, I would do it. The offshore stuff is what it is. Cheap. This is really sad as they can be made to be right with some effort.

OK, using silicone based grease on the urethane bushing, yes that will help with the petroleum interaction.

When you get your new equalizer, can you take a few pics and let me know the pin to pin X and Y dimensions? I may consider one of them on mine as the Original Trail aire rubber is starting to crack.

Thanks

John
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:56 PM   #48
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When you get your new equalizer, can you take a few pics and let me know the pin to pin X and Y dimensions? I may consider one of them on mine as the Original Trail aire rubber is starting to crack.

Here's some pictures of my steel Dexter equalizer and the new Road Armor rubber mounted equalizer. Here are the dimensions for each. The second picture shows how close the R.A. horizontal width is to the Dexter. All measurements are center to center.

Dexter #013-104-02 -----R.A. #696740
Horizontal - 5.70" -------- 6.0"
Vertical - 2.0" -------------3.25"

I have some other updates I want to share after I get some pictures and info later today or tomorrow.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200625_132757.jpg (72.8 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_132837.jpg (53.4 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-25-2020, 07:35 PM   #49
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I have some pictures of the drivers side front and rear leaf spring eye's after reaming them out to 0.750" from the original bore of 0.688"
There are 2 views of each eye, the back side and the eye opening start point.
I also changed the way I labeled the pictures in the next series. These pictures are of the drivers side front leaf, 1a would be mounted in front hanger, 1b (which I would of called eye #2) would be at the shackle/equalizer. The last picture is just a piece of SS tubing with a 0.7495" measured dimension. It slides in smoothly but isn't so loose that it falls out. I used tubing in both eyes to get an accurate center to center measurement of 23-1/8". The Dexter free arch length is 23.12". This confirms accuracy and squareness of holes. The reaming could probably use another 0.010 - 0.020" to totally clean the hole up in the eye opening on 1a and near the top of 1b. I'm ok with this spring, going to do a new post for drivers side rear spring.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200625_DRV_eye1_a.jpg (53.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_DRV_eye1a.jpg (49.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_Drv_eye1_b.jpg (46.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_DRV_eye1b.jpg (48.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_testFit.jpg (133.3 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-25-2020, 08:41 PM   #50
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John, Here's the drivers side rear spring, #3 is equalizer/shackle and #4 is the rear frame hanger. So on this spring, #3 spring didn't clean up as well as other 3 eyes. Looking at the eye openings, they look pretty good. But when you look at #3a picture, you can see it didn't clean up as well. The eye almost looks twisted a little, one side of the eye start overhangs the leaf and on the other side underhangs the leaf. Not sure if that's from the way the eye was originally formed, or was it over stressed? You can see that the tubing isn't square in the last picture. Also the center to center measurement is 23-5/16" on one side and when you flip it over it's 23-3/8". As I said earlier the free arch height is ~1/4" less than Dexter new spec of 3.50" which would account for some of the extra length. The test pin fits in these holes nicely, the don't fall out. I'm kind of concerned this will throw of spring alignment if tight bushing clearances are used. I wonder if the Dexter and MoRryde brass bushings have so much clearance because the assume the springs aren't that true and square from the factory?

So I tried calling Energy Suspension for technical advise about using there bushings in a custom application, they wouldn't talk to me. They said you can only use these in the vehicles they are made for. So I called Prothane, the competition to Energy Suspension. They both offer the bushings I bought. The Prothane tech said I could use the bushings I have as is but make sure there is a 0.020" interference fit in the eye. He told me he wouldn't make them any smaller. So I'm not going to use these, because I don't want to bore eyes out to 0.860 from the current 0.750".

So I called a Delrin distributor to see if I could get technical assistance. They couldn't help me but gave me a contact name to email at Dupont. So I sent him a detailed email of the application and criteria. I asked him if he could recommend the best formulation, but also mentioned the Never Fail Nylon, to see if he thought one was better than the other. Hopefully I didn't ask to much and he just never answers, I guess I'll find out.

I can always fall back on bronze bushings. Do you think the eye #3 needs to be bored out more and squared up? I thought about filling in the part that didn't get machined out with JB Weld like Tod did. If I was using polyurethane, it could take up some misalignment. I just don't know if typical suspension dimensions and accuracy are closer to 0.0xx" or x/32 - x/16" if you know what I mean.

I can't do the other side until I get these back in since I have no easy way to hold up drop axles with all the springs out, so I need to figure out something soon. Thanks for you continued insights, Russ
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File Type: jpg 20200625_Drv_eye3Squareness.jpg (51.9 KB, 3 views)
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post

So I called a Delrin distributor to see if I could get technical assistance. They couldn't help me but gave me a contact name to email at Dupont. So I sent him a detailed email of the application and criteria. I asked him if he could recommend the best formulation, but also mentioned the Never Fail Nylon, to see if he thought one was better than the other. Hopefully I didn't ask to much and he just never answers, I guess I'll find out.

I can always fall back on bronze bushings. Do you think the eye #3 needs to be bored out more and squared up? I thought about filling in the part that didn't get machined out with JB Weld like Tod did. If I was using polyurethane, it could take up some misalignment. I just don't know if typical suspension dimensions and accuracy are closer to 0.0xx" or x/32 - x/16" if you know what I mean.
Hi Russ,

Wow, the spring eyes cleanup look a lot better than I have seen on non worn springs, and they should with the process that was done to clean them up.

It also shows that with all the trueing up, there is still a sliver of unsupported area where the eye closes up. You can see it here as an example.


That pic, while it shows the sliver of exposure of no clean up and that means there is not total support under that are, that eye may be close to the best trailer industry eye in this camper style spring that has even been. It goes to show how bad that was before you ever reamed it out.

Now, is that sliver of no cleanup a problem? The question is, how deep is that sliver? 0.001" 0.005"? or something in the middle? And then, what is a an unworn spring that has cracked a bronze bushing?

If you have a dial indicator with a feeler tip you might be able to get a "level" of feel for the depth. It may be less than 0.001" which does not really mean much. Yes, not being there is best, but we have no info to tell us yet how bad is bad that it can crack bronze. In this whole trailer suspension, you will never find anything as accurate as 0.001 or 0.002" and it works with a lot worse than that every day. It just may not last as long as we want it too.

To spring eye 3 that is out on an angle to the spring, I would say that has been like that from day 1 when they made the spring. I have seen a lot worse of an angle in trailer rebuilds that still go back together and work as good as one that is not on an angle. In my case, I found a camper like that, just it was not the spring eye, it was they welded the hanger on an angle and pitched the spring to the outside. So why did it still work?

There is clearance in brand new bronze bushing and new pins. That clearance allows a level of misalignment compensation. So the rear or front hanger eye has a small level of misalignment compensation. Then we get to the equalizer area. The center pin has some clearance, the shackle setup up has 2 pins of clearance. So there is 4 pins worth of clearance to allow for spring misalignment and still fit in the hanger and work. And then there is clearance between the hanger width and the spring width that helps some too. I was shocked the 2005 T2363 suspension I rebuilt a year ago that the spring would ever fit up that hangar was welded on so far out when I put ne bronze in, but it did. Just do not end up with 2 hangers messed up in opposite directions as that might not work.

Point being, I think # 3 eye will work as is. No need to try and ream it out.

On the bronze bushings, here is some info on the material and where you can buy it if you go the bronze route. You can hunt some more to maybe get a better price, but I know they sell to the open public and they have it. McMaster Carr. Look for the oversize bronze stock part numbers to allow for machining your own fit. The 3/4 rod runs larger.

This 932 bronze is also known as SAE 660 bronze and is most likely close to what Dexter and Morryde use. It may even be a little better. SAE 660 is standard bearing bronze.
https://www.mcmaster.com/bearing-bro...g-bronze-rods/

The next step up in strength and wear is 954 heat treated to M07 temper. This is better than the 932 (60% stronger) and costs more. Scroll down for the round stock.
https://www.mcmaster.com/bearing-bro...earing-bronze/

And here is the high end bronze, stronger by 85% as the 932, it is Ampco 18. And the cost is even more. The do make a version of Ampco 18 that is 110% stronger then 932, but McMaster does not carry it.
https://www.mcmaster.com/ampco-18-bronze/

The Ampco 18 with grease may outlive the camper as long as the bronze does not crack from the support issue. The 954 may come close to outliving the camper. With your reamed out eyes, the the Ampco 18 or 954 bronze has high odds it will not be a problem and out perform the Dexter or Morryde bronze. Cost is going to enter into the what to use at some point. It all depends on how many years you want to get out of this. Standard nylon is the starting point and it does not take much to get better.

The Delrin in any of the formulations will be better then what the original nylon gave you. The Delrin experts may offer up what formulation may be better. How much better the Delrin is over the nylon is hard to tell, it will take a try and see approach. I have lots more experience using Ampco 18 bronze lubed in heavy duty applications running 30 years in industrial applications before change bushings then I do Delrin. Delrin comes in when you cannot use lube and you do not want to use the bronzes and you are trying to make a dry running bearing to hold up.

My T310SR weighs twice what your camper does. My spring eyes are not as good as your reamed out ones, but they are not worn eyes either, they just are not as round and cleaned up as yours. You have the reaming going for you that we do not. I do have 2 bronzes bushings that have cracked, one replaced with a Never-fail as a test, the other still in the system were the eye form ended. I'm in the 30K mile range on the bronze and they are well greased.

Tod bought new springs, new bronze and had a lot of bronze cracks in 6K miles on a camper lighter than yours. In his case, the spring eye out round was the issue that came to the forefront first before wear ever entered the equation.

I pointed out these two data points to try and help you make a decision. Your reamed out eyes look better then my non worn eyes and I have 30K miles documented on standard Dexter bronze at twice the camper weight. I can get more miles, just I do not know how much more. How many miles do you think you will travel before you need to rebuild?

When the day comes I press out my bronze, I will take close measurements to add to the data set on how good is good enough on the spring eyes to make bronze work.

Hope this helps

John

PS Good pics and data on your reaming. That was a good move to do that.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
When you get your new equalizer, can you take a few pics and let me know the pin to pin X and Y dimensions? I may consider one of them on mine as the Original Trail aire rubber is starting to crack.

Here's some pictures of my steel Dexter equalizer and the new Road Armor rubber mounted equalizer. Here are the dimensions for each. The second picture shows how close the R.A. horizontal width is to the Dexter. All measurements are center to center.

Dexter #013-104-02 -----R.A. #696740
Horizontal - 5.70" -------- 6.0"
Vertical - 2.0" -------------3.25"

I have some other updates I want to share after I get some pictures and info later today or tomorrow.
Thanks for this Russ, I need to compare to what I have and see how it lines up.

John
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:37 AM   #53
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Those eyes look great.
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:29 PM   #54
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So I got info back from the Dupont Technical guy about the inquiry to Delrin. He suggested that Delrin 150 NC010 is probably a good fit for our application. Here is a data sheet.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/1da6d92a5764...est%20Standard

This stuff is cheap, I can buy 3' of 3/4" or 7/8" for $20. I tried calling to get the +- spec to see if I could get buy with the 3/4" as I probably need an extra 0.005-0.010" or so for press fit.

The guy did mention Vespel as premium nylon comparable to Never Fail Bushings (I gave him a link to look at). I don't think it's the same material just from cost, this stuff is way to expensive for RV market stuff.

So you asked about how long I'll keep the trailer, I have stuck way to much money in my Sunline because my wife didn't see any new trailers we looked at a year or 2 ago she liked. Also we don't use this a lot, I'd say over the years I've average 2-3k miles per year. Maybe when my wife retires in the next few years we'll use it more often.

So I opted to go brass, and in my search for other suppliers other then McMaster Car, I found a place that sells all different size already machined SAE 660 bushings. They even sell bushings made for leaf spring eyes that have spiral grease grooves. There a bit more expensive, but I really like the grease groove idea, so I already ordered them. They make them in the my overbore size, 9/16" x 0.75" x 1-3/4" long, but also for the stock Dexter eye size. Here's a link to the stock size:

https://www.bronzebushings.com/ecb-b...ra-lube-groove

If you don't want to pay that much for the grooved bushings, I think the plain ones were about $5 apiece.

I went back and looked at yours or Tod's suspension thread where you both talked about the extra side clearance in the frame hangers. It looks like the clearance on mine from the side I didn't take off yet, has 1.88" between the bolted hanger, and the bushing will be 1.75". Should I be thinking about adding washers to make up that extra 0.13" (0.065"/side) or should there be play there for the misalignment of all of the leaf spring eyes we talked about?
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:02 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So I got info back from the Dupont Technical guy about the inquiry to Delrin. He suggested that Delrin 150 NC010 is probably a good fit for our application. Here is a data sheet.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/1da6d92a5764...est%20Standard

This stuff is cheap, I can buy 3' of 3/4" or 7/8" for $20. I tried calling to get the +- spec to see if I could get buy with the 3/4" as I probably need an extra 0.005-0.010" or so for press fit.

The guy did mention Vespel as premium nylon comparable to Never Fail Bushings (I gave him a link to look at). I don't think it's the same material just from cost, this stuff is way to expensive for RV market stuff.
Thanks for the info for the future. Glad to see Dupont came through and answered.

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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So you asked about how long I'll keep the trailer, I have stuck way to much money in my Sunline because my wife didn't see any new trailers we looked at a year or 2 ago she liked. Also we don't use this a lot, I'd say over the years I've average 2-3k miles per year. Maybe when my wife retires in the next few years we'll use it more often.
Welcome to the club of not finding a new camper better than the one you have. With all the money I have put into our T310SR, anything short of an Arctic Fox does not come close to have what we have now in a TT. And I start with the frame under the camper. There is no way I am getting another 10K GVWR camper on anything less than a 10" frame, and even then it needs to be reinforced. Last summer we were with a SOC member who had a newer Grand Design. Nice camper, they at least had the 10" frame and added lower flange reinforcement at the axle and the rear overhang. There are so many brands out there now, including the Jayco Eagle on 8" frame at the same weight ratings. And many brands are using the 4,400# underrated axles on a 10K camper. No way, no how for me. So, we keep fixing what I have. It is still in great shape inside, sealed up and no leaks, it has a lot of good camping life left in it. Plus I have 4 other Sunline project campers being restored better than new, so I'm not out of Sunlines just yet...

If you enjoy what you have, and you know the history on it, and it all works, and well maintained, be happy and go camping. Buying a new camper now a days, does not guarantee a problem free camper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So I opted to go brass, and in my search for other suppliers other then McMaster Car, I found a place that sells all different size already machined SAE 660 bushings. They even sell bushings made for leaf spring eyes that have spiral grease grooves. There a bit more expensive, but I really like the grease groove idea, so I already ordered them. They make them in the my overbore size, 9/16" x 0.75" x 1-3/4" long, but also for the stock Dexter eye size. Here's a link to the stock size:

https://www.bronzebushings.com/ecb-b...ra-lube-groove

If you don't want to pay that much for the grooved bushings, I think the plain ones were about $5 apiece.
Thanks for the link. They also have C954 generic aluminium bronze stock a little cheaper than McMaster.

You really can't go too far wrong with the SAE 660 and your nice good looking reamed out spring eyes. Since your bushing will have more wall thickness, it buys you some time to check the wear every so often and not be worn into the spring. Good choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
I went back and looked at yours or Tod's suspension thread where you both talked about the extra side clearance in the frame hangers. It looks like the clearance on mine from the side I didn't take off yet, has 1.88" between the bolted hanger, and the bushing will be 1.75". Should I be thinking about adding washers to make up that extra 0.13" (0.065"/side) or should there be play there for the misalignment of all of the leaf spring eyes we talked about?
Yes, the hanger is wider than the spring, but I will ask, did you measure near the spring bolt or way up top near the frame? I do not recall there being 1/8" clearance beyond the 1 3/4" spring at the spring/bolt area, but it maybe. I do not have a lot of data on the various widths at the hangers side thrust wear as I have not yet run into a need to correct it. Everything else was totally shot though. The hangers are formed to a tolerance and yours may be at the high end of the spec to create the 1/8". I have seen the top by the frame wider then at the spring bolt. The spring bolt sets the width almost at the spring. The hanger gets bent inward to what the spring bolt will allow. That may be why I have seen it smaller at the spring.

As do you shim or not, in all the suspension issues I have seen, worn out hangers from spring edge rub has not been one of them. On good bushings, the pin should help hold the spring straight when the side thrust of turning is underway. If the bushings are heavily worn, in that case the side thrust is then being taken more by the hanger.

I have no objection if you want to put bronze thrust washers, 1/32" each side or 1, 1/16" one on one side creating 1/16" clearance. If you go less then the 1/16" then side thrust may be more taken by the hangers then the pins on good bushings. On the eye with the angled hole, you may have to leave that hanger setup on that spring to be whatever you have now. If you try and do 1/32" clearance, if there is any angularity to the spring when assembling, it may rub hard getting the spring up in the hanger. Just something to be aware of.

Another plus, using the heavy duty 1/2" shackles even helps more on reducing side thrust against the hangers. When the standard thin shackles start wearing out, the spring can move more and then more strain is on the end hangers spring bushings to hold the spring straight during a turn. You will gain a good amount of stability over time with the HD shackles as compared to the standard thin shackles.

Hope this helps.

John
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Old 06-27-2020, 06:45 PM   #56
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I wanted to add a little more to the Delrin comments below.

Quote:
So I got info back from the Dupont Technical guy about the inquiry to Delrin. He suggested that Delrin 150 NC010 is probably a good fit for our application. Here is a data sheet.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/1da6d92a5764...est%20Standard

This stuff is cheap, I can buy 3' of 3/4" or 7/8" for $20. I tried calling to get the +- spec to see if I could get buy with the 3/4" as I probably need an extra 0.005-0.010" or so for press fit.
Quote:
Thanks for the info for the future. Glad to see Dupont came through and answered.
I was investigating other potential bushing materials beside bronze and nylon. I didn't come up with Delrin out of the blue, it is used in leaf spring applications already, I just didn't know what formulation was being used. So the comments in the quote above were from the Dupont, the polymer manufacturer stating what he thought was a good choice for leaf spring applications. Just for reference, here's a couple of links use Delrin for leaf spring bushings, there are other out there: https://www.jegs.com/p/Ridetech/Ride...29072/10002/-1
https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/196...detroit-speed/
If someone wanted to make them, the raw material in solid rods are very inexpensive as noted above.

Quote:
Yes, the hanger is wider than the spring, but I will ask, did you measure near the spring bolt or way up top near the frame? I do not recall there being 1/8" clearance beyond the 1 3/4" spring at the spring/bolt area, but it maybe.
FYI, I took my curb side springs off today and checked the clearance by moving eyes in bracket, seemed to be about 1/16-1/8" slop. I removed all of the leafspring hardware and I ground the serrations off and re-installed a bolt and snugged it up, took measurement inside hanger right above bolt, it was 1.874".

So that brings me to the main reason want to show the leaf springs as removed. I think people that have had this issue and have physically done a bushing changeout or upgrade probably understand what we're talking about with the eye and bushing deformation since they've seen it up close. Sometimes pictures don't give the full picture. But I decided that some first time TT owners that haven't seen the issues up close maybe don't get a full appreciation for the problem with replacing worn bushings, and how it can affect the outcome of the new bushings. So I took some pictures and zoomed in and made it very easy to see some the problems for future documentation. I placed a light underneath to clearly see the gaps.

The one thing you cannot see from these pictures is that the new bushing, which is suppose to be a press fit, actually goes in anywhere from 1/4" to 3/8" easily on either side of all the eyes. The bolts wobbled around and wore out the inner and outer id's. If I was to try and reuse holes as is and put new bearings in, there would probably only be ~1" of the center of bushing that would be supported and pressed in. This would result in worn out new bushings in much quicker time.
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File Type: jpg 20200627_leafeye2a.jpg (64.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 20200627_leafeye2b.jpg (107.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:03 PM   #57
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This is the other spring, on the curb side. I will be taking these in to ream them out to 3/4" and see how the come out.

John, I know you looked at and commented on the off square spring eye from the drivers side after reaming, but I wasn't sure if you looked closely at the back of the spring opposite of the eye. I zoomed in so you could see it. I think I need to do something with this, it's ~0.010" deep near the wider part that didn't clean up.
Looking at the gaps on a couple of these eyes on the curb side, I may have to do something with them also. Since I bought bushings that are 3/4"od, maybe I should try filling in unfinished area like Tod did with epoxy.

Also ran across another Lippert Never Fail, failed bushing, although he didn't give a lot of details, but a picture anyway.
https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...-so-54948.html
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File Type: jpg 20200627_leafeye4b.jpg (48.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 20200625_Drv_eye3a_closeup.jpg (92.1 KB, 2 views)
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
Snip..

I wanted to add a little more to the Delrin comments below.

I was investigating other potential bushing materials beside bronze and nylon. I didn't come up with Delrin out of the blue, it is used in leaf spring applications already, I just didn't know what formulation was being used. So the comments in the quote above were from the Dupont, the polymer manufacturer stating what he thought was a good choice for leaf spring applications. Just for reference, here's a couple of links use Delrin for leaf spring bushings, there are other out there: https://www.jegs.com/p/Ridetech/Ride...29072/10002/-1
https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/196...detroit-speed/
If someone wanted to make them, the raw material in solid rods are very inexpensive as noted above.
Russ, thanks for those links. I have a relative who works at Jegs and it never dawned on me to see what they have. It seems the performance aftermarket is converting rubber to Delrin for better performance beyond Poly bushings. I will see is he has run into this and if there is anything more to add to the trailer discussion learning from Delrin. We have a small 6" lathe with all the tools, we could make Delrin bushings if needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
FYI, I took my curb side springs off today and checked the clearance by moving eyes in bracket, seemed to be about 1/16-1/8" slop. I removed all of the leafspring hardware and I ground the serrations off and re-installed a bolt and snugged it up, took measurement inside hanger right above bolt, it was 1.874".
Good info and your method is an accurate end result. With a nominal 1 3/4" wide spring, that would create the 1/8" clearance. At least on that hanger. Not seeing your note, and me never stopping thinking about this stuff... I was curious what is the actual clearance as I myself had not measured it, just eyeballed it.

I came at this a little different, but backed into the same general area as you have. I went and dug out a random worn out Dexter spring pin. They use the shoulder bolt concept like MorRyde does,but not everyone does. Knowing your setup would have used the shoulder bolt, I measured the spring pin.

At first with a scale. By scale it was 2 5/16".


I took a quick measurement on one of my project campers (2004 T1950) to confirm 1/4" hangers thickness. H'mm, while they are not in new looking shape, (rust etc.) it came out to 0.230" on the calipers. Never underestimating the trailer industry to penny pinch, are they making 1/4" nominal wall thickness hangers 0.020" undersize? Don't want to jump to a conclusion just yet, I need to get a bigger sample size. There are 5 more Sunlines in my barn to get a sampling from. For a first pass, I will use 1/4" nominal hanger thickness.

2 5/16" (shoulder on the pin) - 1/2" (hangers) - 1 3/4" (nominal spring) = 1/16" nominal clearance. H'mm, I believe Russ's numbers pointing to 1/8" let me recheck. 1/16" is big enough we can see it.

With calipers the spring pin is 2.325" (not 2.313") And if the hangers are 0.230 for real, then


2.325" (shoulder on the pin) - 0.460" (hangers) - 1 3/4" (nominal spring) = 0.115" or 0.010" short of 1/8".

Bottom line, you are right! With all the stackup of nominal tolerances, and not knowing all the brands of springs, spring pins or hangers manufacturing tolerances, 1/16" to 1/8" clearance is what it can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So that brings me to the main reason want to show the leaf springs as removed. I think people that have had this issue and have physically done a bushing changeout or upgrade probably understand what we're talking about with the eye and bushing deformation since they've seen it up close. Sometimes pictures don't give the full picture. But I decided that some first time TT owners that haven't seen the issues up close maybe don't get a full appreciation for the problem with replacing worn bushings, and how it can affect the outcome of the new bushings. So I took some pictures and zoomed in and made it very easy to see some the problems for future documentation. I placed a light underneath to clearly see the gaps.

The one thing you cannot see from these pictures is that the new bushing, which is suppose to be a press fit, actually goes in anywhere from 1/4" to 3/8" easily on either side of all the eyes. The bolts wobbled around and wore out the inner and outer id's. If I was to try and reuse holes as is and put new bearings in, there would probably only be ~1" of the center of bushing that would be supported and pressed in. This would result in worn out new bushings in much quicker time.
Russ, those pics are great!!! There is also some other learning from this,

This pic points to the classic, the nylon bushing wore through, and then you have the steel spring pin grinding on the spring eye directly. All the weight of the camper is pressing down at the junction where the spring eye curl stops. And the daylight you are showing tells a story of why both bronze , Never-fail, or even nylon put back in that spring as it, will in time fail prematurely. Not to mention there may be no press fit left to stop the bushing from spinning.


To help add your great points, I showed these on another thread, but this was a good friend of mine with a 2007 T28SR that had a shackle failure while out camping. It left him stranded with the tire up in the wheel well. The shop who helped him out rebuilt the suspension, in their shop, using some non conventional practices. They rebuilt the spring eyes at the equalizer with standard nylon. They also used 9/16" bolts as spring pins with threads inside the bushing no less. But, my point is to show what your pics show, that the worn spring will wear into a new bushing.

Here is the spring eye. You can see the wear in the eye by the shiny rub surface right creating a V at the end of the spring eye wrap.


Here is the new nylon bushing that was put into that hole and what it looks like not long after it was installed. Granted this is a 8,600# camper, but the issue will occur on a 5,500# camper too.


As FYI, see the threads swedged in the bushing from the bolts they used. Not to mention they did nothing to stop the bolts from spinning.


Thanks for the link to the Jayco forum on the Never-Fail, failing.
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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post

Also ran across another Lippert Never Fail, failed bushing, although he didn't give a lot of details, but a picture anyway.
https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...-so-54948.html
From that post, in 2 years and 12,000 miles he wore through the Never-fail. It does now appear he did an in depth investigation as to the orientation of the wear through. He also did not say much on the history of what condition the suspension was in before he rebuilt it. It is possible that accelerated Never fail bushing wear came from the wear grove made from his original nylon bushing when it wore out and, the spring pins were grinding on the spring. He has a 2012 camper and it appears he tows long distances. His original nylon normally only lasts approx 8 K to 10K miles before it is wears through.

Point being, there are high odds he rebuilt the suspension using worn spring eyes and that can affect any bushing installed in that condition. It would be interesting for him to report back if his bronze cracked in the same spot the Never fail wore through after 12,000 more miles. This post and the one from the Heartland forum have more going on then just Never-fail bushings going out in a short time. I'm not pushing Pro Never-Fail, just pointing out even bronze will not work well in a worn out hole.

The Equalizer is another place of casting wear. Whenever I do a rebuild, if the spring pins wear into the equalizer when the bushings fail, they get checked for roundness. Every time I check a worn one, they get put off to the side and a new one installed. The rigid equalizers are so cheap, why not replace it when the casting is worn. Any new bushing will have a short life trying to run in the worn casting condition.

To your conclusion here,
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post
So that brings me to the main reason want to show the leaf springs as removed. I think people that have had this issue and have physically done a bushing changeout or upgrade probably understand what we're talking about with the eye and bushing deformation since they've seen it up close. Sometimes pictures don't give the full picture. But I decided that some first time TT owners that haven't seen the issues up close maybe don't get a full appreciation for the problem with replacing worn bushings, and how it can affect the outcome of the new bushings. So I took some pictures and zoomed in and made it very easy to see some the problems for future documentation. I placed a light underneath to clearly see the gaps.

The one thing you cannot see from these pictures is that the new bushing, which is suppose to be a press fit, actually goes in anywhere from 1/4" to 3/8" easily on either side of all the eyes. The bolts wobbled around and wore out the inner and outer id's. If I was to try and reuse holes as is and put new bearings in, there would probably only be ~1" of the center of bushing that would be supported and pressed in. This would result in worn out new bushings in much quicker time.
You are right on with your conclusions! Excellent points.

The outer edges of the spring eyes in the front and rear hangers wear as the leaf spring itself gets forced to the left or right in a turn from a worn out equalizer area. The equalizer and the shackles hold each spring rigid in the center of the hangers where it is supposed to be when the equalizer center pin and the shackle areas are tight. When the suspension is running where it is supposed to be, the 1/8" of clearance of the spring in the hanger is not really affecting much. And if they are less then an 1/8" I'm not sure it will help much either. The fit of the spring to the hanger will not really stop the spring from walking on an angle left or right like the spring pin can. The full 1 3/4" of the spring pin in a good bushing holds the spring straight ahead, and as long as the equalizer area holds rigid, all is good. Once the equalizer areas gets into wearing, and the shackles starting getting wobbly, it is downhill from there and the front and rear spring eyes and pins start taking a beating.

Rebuilding the suspension with heavily worn spring eyes will create shorter life on the rebuild as you stated. Yes, rebuilding in a worn condition will still be able to use the camper, but the life of the new bushings of any brand/style in a worn hole will wear faster. Ideally, all this is realized when the camper was new, and folks were told, the camper suspension needs to be checked and parts replaced before the bushings wear through. From the friends I have helped and my own project campers, camper folks had no idea any of this was ever an issue. These topics never seem to show up at a new camper walk through. The even sadder part is, campers are built from day one with parts that will wear out and create issues in the 5,000 to 10,000 mile range. Other then some high end 5th wheels, I have not seen any new camper ever come with bronze greasable suspension and heavy duty shackles combination. Lippert does not even make the HD shackles yet. Some new TT's now do come with HD shackles as part of an equalizer upgrade, but I have not yet seen bronze greasable bushings. That little expense in the cost of a new camper for the upgrade is not a lot at the OEM level.

More on your bushing wear and what to do with it shortly.

John
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:04 PM   #59
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Rebuilding the suspension with heavy worn spring eyes will create shorter life on the rebuild. Yes, you will still be able to use the camper, but the life of the new bushings of any brand in a worn hole will wear faster. Ideally, all this is realized when the camper was new, and folks were told, the camper suspension needs to be checked and parts replaced before the bushing wear through. From the friends I have helped and my own project campers, camper folks had no idea any of this was ever an issue. These topics never seem to show up at a new camper walk through. The even sadder part is, campers are built from day one with parts that will wear out and create issues in the 5,000 to 10,000 mile range. Other then some high end 5th wheels, I have not seen any new camper ever come with bronze greasable suspension and heavy duty shackles combination. Lippert does not even make them, at least yet anyway. (some new TT's now do come with HD shackles as part of an equalizer upgrade, but not bronze greasable bushings. That little expense in the cost of a new camper for the upgrade is not a lot at the OEM level.
John, I consider myself a very mechanical minded person. I've worked on all of my own cars, motorcycles and such since I was a teenager. I've only had a travel trailer since ~2000. I have the Dexter manual which I thought I read carefully, but didn't see (or remember) the 1 short paragraph that said to visually inspect your suspension every 6000miles. I've always been good with cleaning and repacking wheel bearings and tire balancing, etc. Over the years I've owned many a vehicle and truck with leaf springs, I always thought the were pretty much maintenance free, so I guess that's what I thought about the TT. And the only reason I looked at this so closely, was trying to figure out why the trailer felt unstable when I got my new RAM last year and talking to you about that. Then I started reading more posts and educating myself, I guess I'm lucky the my shackles or springs never broke. I agree that this needs to be a more closely looked at by new RV owners, they just need to be educated like I did.
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by RRS2670 View Post

John, I know you looked at and commented on the off square spring eye from the drivers side after reaming, but I wasn't sure if you looked closely at the back of the spring opposite of the eye. I zoomed in so you could see it. I think I need to do something with this, it's ~0.010" deep near the wider part that didn't clean up.
Looking at the gaps on a couple of these eyes on the curb side, I may have to do something with them also. Since I bought bushings that are 3/4"od, maybe I should try filling in unfinished area like Tod did with epoxy.


That pic of the area that did not clean up, and you mentioned it may be 0.010" deep, WOW! If that is 0.010" deep now, it was a lot more before you had it reamed. If the standard spring eye hole is 0.687" (please confirm, I did not measure new bronze to verify) and you reamed the eye to 0.750" , that is 0.031" larger, plus the 0.010" that would be around 0.041" wear from an original unworn spring eye? I'm just making sure I understood you right, it is 0.010" deep now after the reaming?

Look close with light and see if there are spring pin wear scratches in the area that is not reamed. I'm trying to figure out, is that actual pin wear that created a 0.041" deep groove or was the spring eye made wrong from day 1?

My reasoning for asking this is, I am trying to understand how that much wear, and that much force/grinding ended up in the 2:00 to 2:30 o'clock position? I have never studied the spring wear up on that area much before, as normally there is no weight pressing on that area. The heavy wear seems to come in the 06:00 zone down by the spring eye curl end. Maybe we are learning something new on this. At least I am.

See this sketch which talks to the grease hole and where "not" to having it pointing as with the weight of the camper over the hole at the 6:00 location seals off the hole. Grease hole should be 3:00 or 9:00. AT the 6:00 area a normal hand grease gun cannot force it in with the weight of the camper on top.


While that picture is only a representation of the clearance in the bushing and pin, I'm trying to think of how the spring pack can twist/flex to get the spring eye up into that area to wear it that heavy? I'm scratching my head on this one if it is actually wear.

Did you see any of the other spring eyes like this?

While my curiosity is really peaked on how the forces came about to create that wear, if it is wear and not a manufacturing defect, I'm not sure it will change the answer to your question, do you try and fill it or leave it when you put the new bushing in?

I have no objection at all trying the Devcon fill like Tod did. That 02:00 area is not normally under the heavy load of the camper like the 06:00 location is. Filling the 02:00 position with Devcon may not get bounced apart as much as the 06:00 location, but that is assuming we understand how your wear in the 02:00 ever got there.

The U bolts hold the spring pack pretty rigid to the axle seat. Twisting of the spring at the equalizer area due to a worn out equalizer should not really be translated to the half of the spring from the axle to the front or rear spring eye. Or at least in the same amount or twisting.

I cannot think of "yet anyway" how that wear groove made it to the 02:00 position to know to tell you "not" to worry about it. If the wear was only 0.001 - 0.002" well, OK not a big a deal. But 0.010" beyond the ream, WOW!

Please confirm if you can see wear scratches in the suspect wear location. If you have a 10X eye loop, you may be able to see them, or lack of. One thing grinding steel leaves, is tracks of whatever did the grinding.

Hope this helps

John
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