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Old 06-07-2011, 04:02 PM   #1
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Towing with generator running

This subject came up over n rv.net and I thought I ask the opinion of those here. I'm hoping someone might know something that I do not. I understand the wish to run the generator, as the A/C will have the unit cooled down when you get where you are going.


My question is this: What kind of effect would it have on the TV's electrical system, to have the camper's converter running? Wouldn't the 12VDC power backfeed into the TV's electrical system?
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:24 PM   #2
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Wouldn't the converter use only what is needed? Kinda like runnig a 12V lightbulb only uses enough to power the bulb and not the complete resources of the power supply system because if it did the bulb would blow all to pieces.

I use to run the generator on the motorhome quite a bit while we were riding. Let the generator run fresh gas while we were in control of what was going on and it never did hurt anthing. Even if we didn't run the roof A/C or other 110V equuipment.

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Old 06-07-2011, 05:00 PM   #3
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... Wouldn't the 12VDC power backfeed into the TV's electrical system?
That is always a concern of mine. I always remove the shore power before I plug into the TV. With the ignition on and engine running I don't want the converter trying to compete with the alternator and the voltage regulator and computer in the TV. Over the many years I have worked with electrical/electronic stuff I have "fried" enough things by stupid errors that I tend to err on the side of caution.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:36 PM   #4
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Wouldn't running the TVs 12V while running the converter be the same as running two batteries? It is still two 12V supplies isn't it? As long as you have polarities right it should make no difference. The power feeds should be controlled by diodes. Don't alternators have diodes to protect themselves? If the diodes go bad you could have problems whatever power supply you run. If you plug 110V straight into the 12V system you could destroy it anyway but that would only happen if your systems were not working correct to begin with.


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Old 06-07-2011, 05:47 PM   #5
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Many years back, when alternators were a new thing, I blew one by having a battery charger on the battery while the engine was running. A mechanic at the auto parts store later said Don't do that stupid!. Alternators have improved since then.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:00 PM   #6
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My guess is that your alternator was blown to begin with so you needed the charger hooked up. The alternator already had problems and was not the result of anything you did unless you crossed the battery cables. Ever give another car a jump with jumper cables? The good battery would be like the battery charger you used. If you have polarity correct you should cause no problems. Cross polarity and you can create problems.

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Old 06-07-2011, 06:54 PM   #7
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Gary, if your TV has a fuse on the 12v charge line, you could pull it which would assure that you won't have any conflicts (real or potential) between the TV's charging circuits and the TT's convertor.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
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That is always a concern of mine. I always remove the shore power before I plug into the TV. With the ignition on and engine running I don't want the converter trying to compete with the alternator and the voltage regulator and computer in the TV. Over the many years I have worked with electrical/electronic stuff I have "fried" enough things by stupid errors that I tend to err on the side of caution.
I'm going to go with Gene on this one too.

Jim there is a difference between 2 power supplies with charge regulators then a battery banks that is a 12 volt source.

You mentioned diodes on an alternator, well yes it is an alternator not a generator. The diodes create a rectification by the correct phasing of 4 diodes in a bridge to turn the AC current produced by the alternator into DC current the auto runs on.

See here for a quick hit on the web alternator

The convertor Gary has has 3 levels of voltage outputs plus a desulfate mode. The convertor senses the resistance thru the battery on the camper and selects the proper voltage to charge at. And then every so many hours once fully charged it kicks into 14.4 volts to desulfate.

If the progressive dynamics is putting out 13.6 in normal charge but the truck is putting out 13.2 in float some one is going to get mixed up. And then you throw in the boost of 14.4.

I do not know if your going to fry anything but for sure I can't see either charge controller working the way it is suppose to.

Like Steve mentioned if you pull the TV charging fuse out in the 7 wire box where ever it is on your camper that will isolate the 2 and the convertor will work as normal.

What I'm more unknown about is running the AC on while driving down the road. My brain is going to the compressor bouncing around and the oil in the crank case. I'll declare I don't know for sure but would find out for if that is a problem or not. I know on a standard refrigerator that after you transport it you should wait a while to let the oil splashed up all over drain down and then start the unit. On a camper AC compressor don't know if they are all that different.

We use to have a refrigeration member who does this for a living but I haven't seen him post in a long time. If he is reading along hopefully he will jump in.

Calling Dometic may yield nothing. They will not switch you to tech service unless you are a certified Dometic repair shop who has a certification number. They are not like Atwood Mobile or Dexter who will help any customer who has one of their products.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 06-08-2011, 05:14 AM   #9
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john,

Wouldn't the pieces of equipment have their own polarity protections to stop the reverse current flow of other equipment? It still seems to me that as long as the polarity of all equipment is the same there would not be any damage. If one does have stronger voltage than the other the current will simply flow the circuit it is connected to instead of trying to flow in a opposite direction. Maybe if the two pieces of equipment were connected head to head there would be problems but they are connected to a complete circuit and will want to flow that circuit before pushing current to destroy other equipment. Well, as long as there is 12V to 12V and 110V to 110V. Maybe if there were a large differential of voltages there might be damage of a blown diode, but I wouldn't think that likely. The voltages will seek their own power source wouldn't they? If they do not have a complete circuit there is only potential without flow.

As for running the A/C while riding. If the A/C were turned on the side and started it might cause problems but that isn't what happens. Yes the compressor will get off level from time to time but aren't the compressors lubricated by splashing the oil inside, oil bath? Kinda like the lawnmower engine? No oil pump so moving parts will lubricate themselves by being physically inside the oil. I don't see the oil in the compressor being thrown so far that it would leave parts dry because it isn't like the holding tank where there is a large area to hold liquid away from moving parts, the compressor is a rather small, compact unit and any force throwing oil away from moving parts would be short lived, if at all, before returning to the lubricating position.

As I said, I did run the generator on the motorhome quite often (until the wires were eaten by rats) without damage. perhaps hundreds of miles at the time. I do not know if there are differences between a generator in a TT and a motorhome. I wouldn't think there is much.

jim

Edited to add: To err on the side of caution is a good thing.
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Old 06-08-2011, 06:30 AM   #10
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John,

Here is a diagram for thought. Connect D-Cell batteries as a flashlight circuit to the appropriate voltaged lightbulb. In that circuit insert a common wire, bus bar. Do that with different voltaged "flashlights". It will make no difference where along the Bus Bar you tie each flashlight to they will all operate properly without interrupting the other system or doing damage.



You could take a 110V power source and tie into the bus bar and it would not blow the flashlights. Only once the circuits become mixed will there be problems.


Now replace the bus bar with the house battery. Connect the TT converter to the house battery. off to the side connect the TV alternator. The converter will operate as the one cell flashlight. The alternator will operate as the two cell flashlight. Each has its own circuit.

Now say the converter senses the battery level, what will it really sense? Could that be the output of the alternator? Doesn't the alternator also output for demand? Low battery means higher output, right? If the converter is putting out the 14.4, or whatever voltage, the alternator will adjust appropriately. Both pieces of equipment run according to the needs of the battery which in my example is really the bus bar.

Back to my original thought that each piece of equipment is a seperate circuit and only if there is a problem, damage to, with other systems will there be interaction between the sytems. Voltage will seek its source. converter 14.4 seeks the converter. Alternator 13.8 seeks the alternator. Unless you have a power source greater than the bus bar/ battery can handle will there be problems. Now that 110V input would blow the sytem all to blazes.

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Old 06-08-2011, 06:51 AM   #11
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The reason a fridge is to sit after being on the side is not because of the oil in the compressor but for the freon in the system. Refrigeration systems run on liquid and gas sides. When they lay on the side the liquid can move into the gas side. Then when the compressor is started the liquid will slug the compressor and potentially blow it since the compressor cannot compress the liquid. Busted piston instantly.

Compressors are sealed units and the motor runs in a oil bath. No problems going down the road.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I do not know if your going to fry anything but for sure I can't see either charge controller working the way it is suppose to.

Like Steve mentioned if you pull the TV charging fuse out in the 7 wire box where ever it is on your camper that will isolate the 2 and the convertor will work as normal.

What I'm more unknown about is running the AC on while driving down the road. My brain is going to the compressor bouncing around and the oil in the crank case. I'll declare I don't know for sure but would find out for if that is a problem or not. I know on a standard refrigerator that after you transport it you should wait a while to let the oil splashed up all over drain down and then start the unit. On a camper AC compressor don't know if they are all that different.
I'm going on what I've been told here and that was, that a lot of people in motorhomes run their generators and air conditioners while driving. The difference between them and us, is that their 12VDC systems are isolated by diodes and have switches to allow mixing between the 12V cranking battery and the 12V deep cycle batteries( If necessary)

I'm also wondering if Ford may have a diode installed in the trailer charge wire. One easy way for me to check, is to hook the 7 way plug up while the shore power is still connected. Of course, I would do it while the truck is turned off. I am not sure if the charge line fuse is before or after the relay, but that would also be easy enough to find out. If there is no diode, I could install one easy enough!
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:15 PM   #13
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There was a dash mounted switch to seperate the house battery from the truck battery. That was to keep the house from draining the truck starting battery. When traveling I simply connected the two systems together again and both batteries would be charged at the same time.
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Old 06-08-2011, 07:54 PM   #14
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I'm going on what I've been told here and that was, that a lot of people in motorhomes run their generators and air conditioners while driving. The difference between them and us, is that their 12VDC systems are isolated by diodes and have switches to allow mixing between the 12V cranking battery and the 12V deep cycle batteries( If necessary)
We did that only a couple times. Once or twice was when it was over 100 outside and anywhere behind the front seats was miserable. The other time was in the summer (80's outside) and the dash air quit working, so we ran the generator and roof air to keep the inside cooler. Never had a problem, but with 40 hours on the generator over six years, we obviously ran it a lot...
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:32 PM   #15
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John,

Here is a diagram for thought. Connect D-Cell batteries as a flashlight circuit to the appropriate voltaged lightbulb. In that circuit insert a common wire, bus bar. Do that with different voltaged "flashlights". It will make no difference where along the Bus Bar you tie each flashlight to they will all operate properly without interrupting the other system or doing damage.



You could take a 110V power source and tie into the bus bar and it would not blow the flashlights. Only once the circuits become mixed will there be problems.


Now replace the bus bar with the house battery. Connect the TT converter to the house battery. off to the side connect the TV alternator. The converter will operate as the one cell flashlight. The alternator will operate as the two cell flashlight. Each has its own circuit.

Now say the converter senses the battery level, what will it really sense? Could that be the output of the alternator? Doesn't the alternator also output for demand? Low battery means higher output, right? If the converter is putting out the 14.4, or whatever voltage, the alternator will adjust appropriately. Both pieces of equipment run according to the needs of the battery which in my example is really the bus bar.

Back to my original thought that each piece of equipment is a seperate circuit and only if there is a problem, damage to, with other systems will there be interaction between the sytems. Voltage will seek its source. converter 14.4 seeks the converter. Alternator 13.8 seeks the alternator. Unless you have a power source greater than the bus bar/ battery can handle will there be problems. Now that 110V input would blow the sytem all to blazes.

jim
Jim

Sorry, I was not getting my point across correctly on the concern. On the compressor I do not know. The only concern I thought of may be an issue is the bouncing of the compressor. It may or may not be a concern. If there was to be a concern I would think it is in that area.

Now to the converter, we have a different opinion of what is going on. The diagram you have above with the 3 batteries I totally agree that hook up on that diagram will not cause any issues. All you did was tie the DC commons of 3 different power supplies common to each other. This is done all the time in the industrial machine building world. OK so far so good.

Here is the unknown concern area. I do not know what will happen when that we have 2 battery packs separated by different resistances of wire gages with 2 different charge controllers trying to control the rate of charge. When we put 2 very different battery charge controllers on the same common power supply line that is the concern. What are the charge controllers doing? This is what I see going on.



Gary has a high end PD9260C smart converter with a boost mode. That charge controller using no 6 awg wire to the 1st battery bank and senses the resistance through that battery bank. By knowing the resistance through the battery it shifts the charge rate to the battery in both volts and amps. It will give the battery all the amps the no 6 awg wire will be able to pass. Which is less then 30 amps unless he ups the wire to be like a no 2 awg. If the coach batteries are drained down far enough it will kick into high charge.

Now lets add the truck. He starts the truck, the Ford relay in the trailer battery charge line closes. The truck has it's own charge controller. I do not know if it has a boost mode, I "think" it only goes up to 13.6 volts. May be wrong on that one. If the truck battery is fully charged that controller will sense the resistance thru that battery hooked up with very large cables and drop down to a float voltage. Again so far so good.

But, there is always a but..... we have the very small no 10 awg 25 feet plus long wire heading back to the 5er battery bank. That wire is very limiting. Here is the unknown, the truck charge controller is putting out lower voltage and low current as the battery in the truck hooked up by heavy cables is 100% charged. The 5er needs higher voltage and higher current as that battery is say 50% charged. The 2 charge controllers are not sensing as they normally do being connected by the 7 wire plug wire that has 2 different voltages on each end of it.

I do not know what that condition will do to the PD9260C converter. I do not see it creating smoke... but for sure I do not see it knows how to sort out the correct charge rate since it is not normal to have a secondary charge controller on the same line doing different charge rates.

It may shut down the PD converter from high charge to normal charge thinking that the battery is more charged then it is as all of a sudden an extra supply of power showed up. Does this hurt anything? It may not hurt it but it may also not be charging at the rate it should. Since there is no smoke.... one may assume everything is fine but it really is not working the way it is suppose to.

If all batteries are 100% charged when you turn both charge controllers on, well they are both in float mode and the problem is no longer as both are putting out 13.3 volts. When 1 battery bank is greatly different then the other, that is the concern.

Gary may need to call Progressive Dynamics tech service and just ask. Can the PD9620C handle a secondary charge controller on the same line at the same time doing different charge rates and voltages and what effects does this cause?

I'm going camping for the next 4 days and odds I will not be back on line (no internet) until Sunday to respond.

Hope this helps

John

PS This is why we where saying pull the battery charge fuse in the 5er heading to the truck. That way both systems are independent. If you are running the converter in the 5er, why do you need the charge line to the truck hooked up?
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:39 AM   #16
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PS This is why we where saying pull the battery charge fuse in the 5er heading to the truck. That way both systems are independent. If you are running the converter in the 5er, why do you need the charge line to the truck hooked up?

You actually do not need the battery charge line hooked up, if the generator is charging the battery. With the temps being so hot today, I plan to try running the A/C on the way to Buttonwood. In my case, with so many unknowns, my plan is to simply turn off the breaker going to the converter. That way, there won't be two different charge controllers fighting each other.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:23 AM   #17
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Hi John,

To me it seems that you will still have two seperate circuits, however they are powered, and they both will sense the house battery state of charge. That means each will react as designed to the battery need. The truck system will react to the charge need and furnish what it is designed to do. The TT converter will react to the condition of the same battery and react as well.

Like with the flashlights, if the three battery system is turned on then only the lightbulb sized for the three cell flashlight will work. That would be like the truck chargeing system sensing the needs of its design. Now, if the two cell flashlight is turned on then only the two cell flashlight will burn. That would be comparable to the TT converter sensing battery needs and reacting as it is intended. Each system does not react to the other but rather only to the need of the battery. Where the two charging systems will influence each other is in how the other system reads the condition of the battery.

If the actual condition of the house battery is that it needs charging each power supply will give what it is designed to do for existing conditions. Nothing more, nothing less. And, only controlled by the conditions of the battery/batteries in the controlled system. That battery condition controls output of both charging systems.

If the truck alternator needs to supply more power to the truck system, I think the converter will tell a higher condition in the house battery, because of the voltage supplied by the alternator as sensed across the house battery, and reduce output accordingly. If the house battery is low and needs charged and the converter pumps power to the house batteries the truck will not sense a low battery and not allow increased alternator output. The two systems will balance each others conditions in the end to keep all batteries properly charged.


Enjoy your time off.

jim
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:29 AM   #18
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Gary,

Your turning the converter off is what I did with the off/on switch on the dash of our motorhome. It allowed me to turn one charging system off, the alternator. If I felt the house battery was charged enough I would turn the truck alternator circuit off. Otherwise I would allow the house battery to charge. In the end, when running the genset and the truck charging system together I had no problems and all batteries were charged properly.

Have a good trip.

jim
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Old 06-09-2011, 09:37 AM   #19
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Edit my last post to add:
IF I let both charging systems run while traveling it was for only shorter trips of a few hours. The reason for that was the house battery is a deep cycle and is isn't good to leave them on charge all the time since deep cycle batteries are made to charge and then discharge instead of topping off and still dump a charging voltage into them like the regular vehicle battery. I'm not talking about the trickle charge used by converter battery chargers but the minimum charge from the truck alternator. I felt that was not good for the house battery to be continually under those charge conditions. Perhaps that is why the motorhome had the manual switch for eleminating the alternator from the charging system.
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Old 06-09-2011, 04:53 PM   #20
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I would disconnect the charge wire or pull the fuse to many things that can go wrong if you lose a ground for instance it is going to spike some thing the charger or the alternator most modern trucks/cars have some very sensitive electronics I would not take a chance of back feeding them from the camper wiring. I can not say for fact but most factory wired 7 pins disconnect with the key off so that would not be an issue if the TV is still hooked up when you use the generator or plug in.
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