Tow vehicle tires

[Jim-Bev-2363]

I hooked the TT today and drove down the highway to see how we handled in traffic. Not good at all. I was blown around by a Honda. So I returned to the tire dealer with 'his' problem. He called Michelin and they suggested a LT tire, like we knew they would, right? Still going to be 265 tires more able to handle the load. anyway, tomorrow at 1:00 I'll get the truck tires installed. Their PSI rating is higher and there are more plys so I might have a rougher ride but a safer one.

I'll post results tomorrow of specs of the LT tires and how they act.

jim

[henryj]

I had this post ready to go in my email program when I saw you had an update. You might not like it now, but I'm going to give it to you anyway... my 2¢...

The only other useful info would be the OEM wheel size, for example 18X7, which should also be on the door sticker. The minimum rim size is rarely a good choice, like the 5" rims on our Sunlines. For the LTX M/S 2 in 265/70R18 that you now have, 7" is the minimum and 8" is just about ideal--look for the rim width to be close to the tread width. More power to Ford if they gave you an 8" rim. This kind of a match pushes out the sidewalls enough to stiffen them. Putting wider tires on an undersized rim rolls the sidewall into the rim and introduces the worst kind of instability in quick lane changes and causes the tire to roll under in any turn. Add to that a tall heavy vehicle like the Expedition and you get what you're describing. From that I fear that you might only have 18X7.

I recently blew a bundle on 9 new tires, but haven't posted as I don't have enough experience with them. I've got LTX M/S 2 LT245/R16 LRE which I'm running at 60 psi front and 70 psi rear. These tires are very different from yours as they go up to 80 psi where yours are P series--the old load range B. Also my truck is a long crew cab with a 153" wb with an open bed and a lot less roof and glass that adds weight high up in a short wheelbase Expedition. I have not towed with these tires, but they are rock solid solo and I have no concerns that they won't perform well. Leaving a tire shop with brand new rubber and poor performance is a bad sign and I'm going to go out on a limb and say the LTX M/S 2 is not a good tire for your truck, especially since it doesn't even come in the OEM size. I think you have a good case to get your money back. By the way, LTX is a Michelin trademark and model name and has nothing to do with "light truck" except that this tire is marketed to truck owners. As you can see from tirerack's table the majority of LTX are P series (44 psi) with only a sprinkling of LT (80 psi).

I've had the misfortune of needing new truck, trailer and car tires all at the same time and spent a good part of the winter on tirerack.com researching options, so please forgive any presumptions and opinions... Tires are a very personal choice, but there are so many options it can be difficult to find the best. Your OEM Pirelli don't rank very high on tirerack so even going back there is not a good choice. My dealer doesn't even stock the OEM Michelin for my Honda because even Michelin makes far better after market tires. I respectfully suggest staying with the OEM size and--assuming you can get a refund--look at the Yokohama G051 in P255/70R18. This tire is an exact replacement for the Pirelli, a good match for 7 or 8" rims and it also goes to 51 psi which will stiffen the sidewall. The Yoko already has a stiffer sidewall than Michelin. My son and I have had very good performance from this tire on 1/2 tons going back to 2003. It is still one of the top tires at tirerack--and that consumers magazine that doesn't like to be named--despite being an older design. It was at the top of the heap when I first bought it, but has been leapfrogged by newer designs. It was still my second choice for the truck, but I bought LTX M/S 2 to get a one year old design that is now at the top. However, I did buy 5 Yoko G051 LT215/75R15 for the 2499 and new 6" rims to match--I'll post when I get some towing experience--so I still have a lot of confidence in the G051. There are other tires that fit the Expedition, but they don't go to 51 psi and I think that's what could make a P series a decent towing tire.


Ok... here's another 2¢ based on your last post...
You don't say, but I believe the only Michelin LT265/70R18 is the LTX A/T 2. This is a big heavy--52 lb. compared to the OEM and Yoko 38 lb.--all terrain tire that will really work your 1/2 ton suspension. One of these tires at 80 psi is enough to hold up the entire front end of your Expedition. Just glancing at load inflation tables they should be run at approx. 50 psi front and 60 psi rear, pressures at which they are likely to be sloppy. You can air them up all the way to 80, but that's like walking out of the shoe store with an uncomfortable pair and messing with them to make them fit better. I'm not surprised, really, but disappointed that Michelin is recommending this solution. They should admit that they don't have your OEM size and give you your money back. I've been very happy in the past with LT LRD on a 1/2 ton, but they only go the 65 psi and their top load capacity is well suited to a 1/2 ton. Unfortunately that kind of tire is just not available in 18". If they give you an LT tire, make sure they'll give your money back if it doesn't work out. Sorry about being so blunt and opinionated...

Henry

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Hennry, Even if I do not 'want' your input I'm sure others do. Said with a smile on my face, ofcourse.

The factory rims are 18 x 8.5 six lug size and should not be a problem for the vehicle and towing, I hope. If I should have a problem can't you see Ford getting bad publicity selling a vehicle to tow 9,000# but put a lesser rim on it? I hope they would do better than that even if they did have a lesser tire. I say lesser tire but I don't know the real rating of the Pirelli Scorpion tires, or how they towed, that were on it. Maybe they were rated for towing.

The LTX M/S2 tires when inflated to the limits, 44/45PSI, are great on the expedition. great ride and control, no wandering. It was when the extra load of towing was added that things got screwey. The problem now could not be solved by more air since we're at the limits so this demands a differnet tire. The first Michelins had a no questions asked return policy that I've used and I'll check about the return policy on the new light truck tires before I get them installed. No doubt about it that I want the light truck tires so any P rated tires are out of the running.

I wish I had your post before now since I have already let them order the Michelin 265 LT tires. Again, I'll check the return policy.

Before I forget another thing, I was driving today and had the speedometer on 61 and went through a radar trailer. It read 62. The only other thing I noticed is that the MPG seemed to change some. Usually when driving like that I'd get 18.3MPG. Today I got closer to 18.0/18.1. Not much difference but some. Since I didn't tow this trailer with the OEM tires I have nothing to compare but the acceration with the 2363 behind us was more than acceptable, even if I didn't have it fully loaded for camping.

The replacement tires will be a stiffer tire but I'll be able to reduce the air pressure, I would think. Hopefully the pressure of mid fifties will be OK for ride and comfort. That is something I'll play around with for sure.

Blunt and opinionated is no problem and I do appreciate everyones input. All the opinions is what makes this place great. Atleast your opinions are based on some fact. Thank You!

jim

[JohnB]

Hi Jim

Sorry I’m late to your post. I also see Henry may be in this same boat. Heads up Henry, read on.

I can give you 5 real world stories about towing with Michelin tires on 3 different SUV’s and 2 on F250’s. I have seen these myself.

I’ll start with the buddy I helped here in my yard setup his hitch. He had the new 2007 1500 Suburban. That was the redesign year from GM. He had a 2004 1500 Burb and towed his TT well. No sway issues. Then he bought in 07 and the same Reese DC and that new Burb was not good. Now he did have some real hitch setup issues. Never readjusted the hitch from old truck to new. I took a test drive in it before we did anything so I could feel how the truck and trailer responded. OMG this thing was not right I’m talking 30 mph issues. That truck was sog city and he was at max pressure on his P tires. He would do a quick slight S turn and the entire rig would start into oscillation. We reset his hitch which was way off and his DC. That made an improvement but the truck on those new tires still was bad. If the side walls are not stiff enough for TT towing the hitch and anti sway will not cure the problem.

Next is my own 2003 K2500 Suburban towing my T2499. This setup was optimized on every level I knew how to. That floor plan with a 1,200# tongue weight was 19% on 6,200# GVW camper. So low tongue weight is not an issue. I had the Reese DC on it and had LT 245/75R16’s E range tire Steel Tex tires. That rig was truly rock solid. I felt nothing, not even semi's made a wiggle in the truck. Then the tires wore out. So I researched the best I knew how at the time and went with the premium Michelin LTX M/S LT 245/75R16’s E range. A bunch of bucks for 5 new tires. Since I ran the Steel tex at 50 psi front and 80 psi rear I started there on the LTX. The day I left the tire shop I said, WOW, these tires are great!. Best this truck ever rode. Well that was until I towed with it.

We where going camping in IN, a 200 mile trip. As soon as I was on the interstate the rig started to go unstable. What!!!! It was windy that day, ~ 30 mph wind gusts hitting me broad side. I can tell from the American Flags flying when you are in that wind speed range, Old Boy Scout learning. Semi's where not a problem but the wind gusts where. The back of the truck would kick to the right. Even Cindy said, What’s that!!! OK what the heck is going on. Pulled over to a rest stop and wiped the vase-o-line off the DC and checked everything, it was still OK. So back out we went. Taking the light lube off the DC helped a small amount but still the wind gusts would kick the truck into an instability. We finally made it to camp and the way home was not an issue as there was no wind.

Well after going over everything again in the hitch, nothing wrong I stumbled on the problem. These LTX even in LT E range on a 130” wheel base are not a good combination. The side walls flex too much. That is why they ride so nice. I finally found out that if I aired up the front tires to 60 psi and a global shift in stability came. WOW, night and day. Still had 80 in the back. I continued the experiment up, 65, 70 and 75. Well when I hit 70 the front of the truck started jumping hard on any bump. That torsion bar front end would not allow me to run 70psi. So I dropped down to 65 psi, which is 5 psi over the global shift point in stability. Basically for towing I did not want to go below 60 and could not go about 65. So 65 was it but I still had this in the back of my mind, I’m 5 psi from an unstable rig. The rig was never as stable as it was on the Steel tex but at least I can tow with it then. Soon after we bought the T310SR and I knew I needed a bigger truck. I towed the T310 for about 3 months until the F350 came. If the Burb could of handled the pulling weight and fully loaded tongue those LTX even with 5K miles on them would of been gone. The front of the truck could not hold stable so the sway forces pushed the rig to where it "felt" like the rear of the truck was letting go. It wasn't the front was what was flexing and the truck pivoted on the rear tires. I also had this strange wear pattern going on, See here, this is 3,300 miles of towing

The rear. Yes that is 1/32" featuring you are seeing there after 3,300 miles




The front


Now on the other side of this I have a camping buddy running the LTX LT 265/75R16’s E range on his F250 pulling a 30 foot SunnyBrook He has the 7.3 PSD upfront and always runs 75 psi on them. That truck can handle the 75 psi and he thinks/swears they are sliced bread for towing…. And he is using the DC as well. Difference, a longer WB truck, heavier front end, 75 psi in the tires over my Burb that cannot do 70 psi on the front.

OK now advance to my other buddy with a F250 LTX LT 245/75R16’s E range on his pulling a 34 foot Skyline but with the V10 upfront. And he had Steel Tex just like me before. On top of this he has a Hensley hitch. He always ran 80psi rear, 50 psi front and the rig was solid on the Steel Tex. I cautioned him about the LTX but here the other buddy, also friends swears by them while I swear at them LOL…. So he upgraded to the LTX. First campout he happened to come camping with us. Same thing the front of his truck was doing strage things all over even with the Hensley. I told him, air them up to at least 60psi. He did and the issue tamed down. He could go higher in pressure as he had a leaf spring front end where I had torsion bar. His V10 was also heavier then my 6.0 V8


OK last one. Have a fellow Scouting buddy I helped him set up his hitch here in my yard. He has a Yukon with a DC on his Starcraft TT. He had P tires and we aired them up to max cold side wall. He towed home and said this is the best his truck ever towed. His tires where worn to be changed so he went BFG LT E Range. Now he has plenty of load capacity but on that heavy LT tire he was running lower pressure as he had no where the load need. Sure enough 1st camping trip out his truck is all over the place. Scared him and his wife for sure. He pulled off and started the air pressure experiment and once he hit 70 psi the rig started to come back together again. In his case, the Yukon is the shorter SUV then the Suburban. Torsion bar front end and light truck.

In all this, I myself will never again buy LTX for a towing tire, period. I do have them on your Trailblazer and love them, but not ever again for towing. Yes they are premium tires, low drag for better fuel, then can handle the weight well and the ride not towing is really good. Just be prepared to run them at high pressure to get any kind of stiffness for towing.

I do agree with Henry on running a wider tire on a narrower rim. That is not good if it can at all be avoided. The brand of tire and the type of truck can aggravate this while others may not have so much and issue. Again side wall flexing. For towing we need a stiff tire that you can live with for ride, but stiff for stability. Cushy ride and towing do not really get along well together.

Jim, your tire guy is going to have to confirm your rims can handle that 80 psi. And demand high pressure valve stems. I predict you are going to be into a tire pressure experiment to get a stable rig. I do not know your Ford front end so I cannot comment on if it can handle high pressure with out bouncing. You will know when you get there, the truck will literally shift left or right on any hard concrete road or pot hole bounce. Find this high pressure bounce point “not” towing as that is the high limit. For towing you may have to start at 50 and work your way up in 5 psi increments until the rig becomes stable.

They do not yet have a side wall stiffness rating that I know of to compare tire brands. And to us TT towers, tires can make or break a stable towing combination.

Good luck, hope this helps and please report back as many here learn from these things.

John

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Thanks for the reply, even if it is late, John.

This Expedition might be closer to the Suburban in towing qualities since it is supposed to be Ford's equivalent. I do have a lighter motor, 5.4 I think, so no telling how this will compare.

I'm going to ask about the return policy on these tires before installing them 'if they cannot tow satisfactory' I don't want to have to keep bad tires. If I go in and demand a certain brand and size of tire I can see having to keep them but when a salesman, from the dealership or the manufacturer, recommends a tire I should be able to return them if they are wrong. JMO



Henry, Your post about the weight of the tire made me wonder if the Expdition can/will handle the weight without wearing the vehicle prematurely. So much to worry about that I guess everyone forgets something. It is hard being a frugal shopper, LOL!



jim


Edited to add another thought. Just how tight can/should sway bars be tightened without damage? It seems that they are a minimum effect if the sway must be so much controlled by the tires. If tires control sway then why do I need the sway bars? Probably more stooppid thoughts from the inexperienced.

jim

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Looking around the Tire Rack and saw what the LT stands for on the Michelin tires. It is not Light Truck but is for Latitude Tour. Now that is just plain sneaky on their part. Makes me want to go to another brand just because they are using deceptive sales practices.

jim

[henryj]

Jim, those certainly are wide rims for OEM and that will definitely help to keep that tire's footprint on the ground. Your new tires are a little taller than the OEM. It looks like you have 637 revs/mile now instead of 648 revs/mile. This will marginally affect your speedometer and should improve mileage slightly, but you won't likely be able to calculate it as your odometer will indicate fewer miles travelled. I'm not sure how the instant readout on a computer display is calculated, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little befuddled. There are some shops, like speed shops, that specialize in tweaking computer settings. They, or even a Ford dealer, should be able to reset the computer for the larger tires if that's important to you. A speed shop can even optimize the shift points for towing and make a firmer shift which generates less heat. I've had those settings tweaked on my truck as it's primary use is towing.

Michelin seems to have buried their load/inflation tables somewhere on the Internet. One of the links is even broken. Your tire dealer should be able to get those for you. They are essential for setting up an LT tire. Goodyear has the best tables around and I always use theirs as all tires are built to industry standards so it really doesn't matter--all LT245's are created equal. However, Goodyear doesn't make your new size so we really should have Michelin's table. If anyone else can find it, that would be great.

Here's hoping you have a really good day today...

Henry

[Jim-Bev-2363]

OK, here is the info on the new tires. Michelin LTX AT2, LT265/70R18, 124/121 R @ 80PSI, DOT B3AC 001X, Load Range E, TPC Spec 2351, Tread Ply 2 poly, 2 steel, 1 nylon, Sidewall ply 2 polyester.

The tires were rotated for best fit to rim, spin balanced and installed with 40 PSI which seems to be great for city driving, unloaded. Tomorrow I'll hit the highway for tests at speed and then connect the TT for another drive test. It will surprise me if I need much air in these tires. I can see maybe 55 or 60 but no more. I think.

There were a few concerns before mounting. 1 - can I swap these if they don't do the job? Yes. Heavy duty valve stems? Yes and done. Will rims handle these tires and pressure? Rims yes but not sure about the low tire sensor so we're checking operating perssures for that.

All in all I am happy with the tire dealer. The owner himself is handling this so no screwups. He did the mounting, has installed the valve stems and pressured the tires up. Since we don't know the exact pressures to operate on we'll test tires and find optimum operating pressures and then the Nitrogen will be installed. The only thing I would rather have had that I do not is white lettering but if that is all I don't like I can live with that.

I'll return to the dealer on Monday with my opinion of how the tires werk and if I'm happy or not. I'll even pay the balance of my bill. They let me leave without paying, silly dealership, LOL!


On another note, I saw a really big fifthwheel that had eight tires of four per axle and the tow vehicle was a crewcab chevy 3500. The traieler had a frame mounted hitch for towing the dingy with. A "very fine rig". Every tire was a brand new Michelin like what I just had installed but a smaller size. They were in there to have a leak in the brakeline fixed. Big bucks on wheels for sure. I had to look away before I got drool all over it.


jim

[Poppy & Nana]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

I had to look away before I got drool all over it.


jim

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Originally Posted by Poppy & Nana

My slobber and all that shine just would not mix.

[henryj]

Jim, I still can't find your tire size on even the industry standard tables. Goodyear does make that size, but it isn't on their table either. Call your tire dealer and ask them for an LT Tire Load Inflation Table for Michelin that actually has your size on it. Otherwise we're fudging the numbers a bit. The sequence 124/121R is code for max. load capacity for single and dual and max. speed. Your tires have a max. load of 3580 lb. single at 80 psi and a max. speed rating of R which is 106 mph. On tirerack.com you can see the code deciphered if you let the mouse hover over the letters on any page where they are shown as a link. If these were factory tires they would be inflated to a pressure that would carry the max. axle loads. On my truck that was 50/80 psi and that's what's on the door sticker. Fudging the numbers for your tires... I used LT275/65R18 which comes in at 3415 lb., the closest to your 3580 lb., and the axle ratings you posted earlier... your front axle will be held up by 35-40 psi and the rear by 45-50 psi. You need at least those pressures to meet Ford's specs for a fully loaded Expedition. I think I'd run at 40/50 to ensure the max. load is covered just in case you find a good deal and decide to drag a new appliance home.

Here's a quick LT tire primer... The rear axle on my truck is rated at 6000 lb., but the real scaled empty weight is 2540 lb. The real scaled rear axle weight camping ready with the trailer loaded and hitched is still only 3800 lb. with weight distribution. For my specific load, I can completely cover the front and rear axle weights with only 40/45 psi front and back. However, I would never run at those pressures, even empty, because the sidewall is far too flexible for good handling. Constantly airing tires up and down for towing and solo is a big pain so I usually run at 60/70 which still gives a decent ride on my long wheelbase, more than enough reserve pressure for any situation except a full load of gravel, and, most importantly, stiffens the sidewall for stable towing. You will need to do some trial and error to find the "sweet spot" of tire pressure for your Expedition and 2363 and I'm pretty sure it's not going to be 40/40. LT tires are designed to take this kind of psi adjustment and that is a huge advantage over P series. Some P series allow for some smaller adjustments between 35 and 44 psi, but for most the max weight is at 35 psi even if they can be aired up to 44 for better handling.

I just came across these links while looking for more load inflation tables. Too bad I didn't have the first one for you earlier.

http://www.tiresafety.com/images/Tir...t%20Manual.pdf

http://www.tiresafety.com/sizes/trucks/about.asp#

John, these are just pdf and they look pretty useful. Do you think they should be added into the files section or an extra sticky at the top of the Towing forum?

Henry

[henryj]

Hi John,
I was aware of one of your bad experiences with the LTX M/S, but confess my vanity ... I had to get the tire at the top of the pile. I certainly value your experiences and advice, but obviously am hoping that my own unique rig combination, and a re-design to the M/S 2, will work out. If not, it'll be an expensive and foolish mistake. All our experiences add into the SOC knowledge base for other members to tap into and I will definitely add my experiences as I get towing again. Right now I can't even think about de-winterizing.

I admit to being influenced by tire ratings. Unfortunately tire ratings like tirerack, and even consumer magazines, are very much seat of the pants. They only tell you which tire model they tested, not which size, LR, psi or vehicle. Just because the tread design is the same as what I'm looking at... will it perform the same when they most likely tested a P at 35 psi and I want an LT at 70 or 80? The Pirelli Scorpion ATR that is top rated by far in the consumer magazine is 7th on tirerack's list, although the top 7 are very close on tirerack. Owner surveys also need to be critically filtered as most people are moving from old, worn out and hard rubber to the latest and greatest. Many carry on about how wonderful their new tires are--and they should be compared to the bald ones they left behind--but will I have the same experience?

The Firestone Steeltex that gave you good service is no longer available. The Yoko G051 that worked so well for me in LT225 is not available in LT245 so I'd have to look at the G053 instead and it's just not the same tire, on paper as well as in the ratings. My OEM Bridgestones are a fairly mediocre tire, although there are worse, and it worked well for me, especially after I raised the tire pressures from 50/70 to 60/70 on your recommendation. I had very good luck upgrading poor OEM Goodyear to Yoko on my 1500 Silverado, so I stuck my neck out again and bought "the best". The same is true with trailer tires where my Missions gave such good service I would have bought them again if they were available in the aftermarket. Instead I got Maxxis and two years later I wouldn't even take them back for an adjustment because I don't want them again.

Here's hoping Jim--and I as well--has a good experience and the LTX A/T 2 turns out to be an excellent tire for his unique application of towing with an Expedition.

Henry

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Originally Posted by henryj

Here's hoping Jim--and I as well--has a good experience and the LTX A/T 2 turns out to be an excellent tire for his unique application of towing with an Expedition.

Henry

From your lips to God's ears.

jim

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

Edited to add another thought. Just how tight can/should sway bars be tightened without damage? It seems that they are a minimum effect if the sway must be so much controlled by the tires. If tires control sway then why do I need the sway bars? Probably more stooppid thoughts from the inexperienced.

jim

Hi Jim

First off, your interest and question is not stupid. Don't even be thinking that here on SOC.

I'll give you some things to think about so the answer will float to the surface.

It sounds like you have a friction "sway bar" or friction anti sway bar. They are common on smaller campers. Now to how tight to not damage? There is some trial and error testing with these. Error can come when too tight or too loose. If you over tighten it can become so rigid it will bend in certain circumstances. Mostly quick turns and some times when wet. And it will most likely be screaming at you with squeal... If it becomes to rigid I'm sure you can see how it will bend.

If it is too loose, well it then is not very effective. There are several rules of thumb to how tight is the right tight... Some are to use one finger to lift the lever and that is tight enough. Regardless of where you start if it is not effective enough, tighten some more. The issue is you have to have a sense of it not being set tight enough to know to tighten it more.... And when you get too tight, you will know from the squeal and the bent bar or the popped off little tow ball they mount on.

There is no, that is the right place to dial it in and then hitch can go with out doing a drive test. Once dialed in. yes you can repeat that setting once you learn it. Each TV and TT react different and they have to be tweaked to be as optimum as they can be. The screw on the bottom (non lever screw) is the one that gives you more friction. The lever is to aid in on and off control. Yes the lever tightens it too, but you need both to create the right amount of tight and not wear uneven on the brake pad.

Now to the truck and the tires and why do we need the sway bar if the tires are right? Well, you need both. Both stiff enough tries to create a stable towing truck and anti sway control for when bad towing events are presented to you. Now why?

Let's look at the truck. The tow ball is hanging some 65" behind the rear axle. They call that rear over hang. You said yours was close to the Suburban and on mine that 65" was the rear overhang.

That is a 65" long lever hanging out of the rear axle of the truck. With a lever that long, if you push on it sideways or up and down, you get a large mechanical advantage of rocking the back of the truck. At the end of the lever is the rear axle. Looking at the truck as a lever, if you push on that long 65" lever on the back, the only thing to resist that leverage that is touching the ground is the front and rear axle held up by it's tires.

If the truck tires are very flexible in the side walls, when that tow ball at the end of the lever gets a big push, the tire will shift in the side wall. The tire OD is planted on the ground and the rim is rigid to the axle. The only thing that can move is the tire side wall. If the side wall is stiff, the truck does not shift in the side wall and thus the truck is more stable against the road. Same thing way up front on the front tires. Have stiff rear tires and soft side wall front tires creates the same problem. When the tow ball get's pushed, the stiff rear tire holds tight and then the next thing holding the truck is the front tire. If it flexes in the side wall the front of the truck is going to jerk left or right in the side wall and that inside the truck feels real bad not to mention the tow ball is now going left to right as well with the TT attached.

When we tow on the ball with large rear overhang TV's, we need stiff side wall tires to hold the truck stable against side forces acting on the tow ball.

I should of mentioned the wiggle test to you. OK John what the heck is the wiggle test.... Go to the back of the truck on the corner and with your body weight lean/push against the back of the truck. Get it is rocking pretty good. Now look down at the rear and front tires. Look at the edge of the rim and the tire side wall. All that wiggle in the the truck is mainly coming from tire side wall flex. If you would of wiggle tested your old tires and now your new tires you could see and feel a difference, or not.

If I go to the back of our Trailblazer with P tires on it and then go over to the F350 with it's big LT's on it, the Trailblazer is wiggle city. The F350 is like a brick wall. Now suspension plays in here too, it's not all tire side wall flex. The heavier the truck suspension the more stable the towing will be. And along with this comes a lot harder ride when the truck is empty.

Now to why the need for sway control if you have stiff tires? The friction anti sway control, and this includes all the friction hitches; Reese DC, Equal-I-zer, friction sway bar, Husky Centerline, Blue Oz sway pro, etc all create a stiff connection between the TT and the TV. They create a stiffer pivot. When a wind blast hits the side of the camper, the pivot action at the tow ball is resisted by the anti sway control. That stiffer connection must have a stiff truck to continue to resist the sway forces acting on the TT. If the tires give way in the side wall, stiff connection or not the truck is unstable and rocking.

If you are towing with a rear overhang TV, "Towing on the ball" you need both, stiff side wall tires and an anti sway control system. One without the other is not a total effective solution for a stable towing rig.

Good luck tomorrow on your towing test. Bring your tire air gage and know where you can air up the tires with the camper on. Do the wiggle test at 40 psi and then when where you end up with a stable rig. I predict you will have to fiddle with the pressures to find the sweet spot between control and nice ride when empty you can live with.

Adding N2 is going to make it more complex to air up the tires for towing and back down for normal driving. Hopefully you can find a combo that works for both towing and normal driving.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by henryj

Hi John,
I was aware of one of your bad experiences with the LTX M/S, but confess my vanity ... I had to get the tire at the top of the pile. I certainly value your experiences and advice, but obviously am hoping that my own unique rig combination, and a re-design to the M/S 2, will work out. If not, it'll be an expensive and foolish mistake.

All our experiences add into the SOC knowledge base for other members to tap into and I will definitely add my experiences as I get towing again. Right now I can't even think about de-winterizing.

Henry

I hope the next generation LTX helps the issue I had with the older LTX. Your 1500HD and my 2500 Suburban are about built the same. Front end and rear springs. I do not remember your wheel base, mine was 130". Longer is better to start with. Your camper and my old one are the same so I'm real interested in what you find out. I hope it works out well for you.

And yes, us fellow Sunliners' talking about these things really helps. Each truck and camper combo adds a new dimension and the more we all learn, the better we all get.

I know 2 years ago just before Buttonwood my truck attracted a big chunk of steel in the tire. Other then dealing with 5 new tires because of it... I'm glad it happend here at home so I could take care of it before towing 9+ hours to Buttonwood.

NTB did not have the Conti trac TR's I had as OEM they wanted to sell me the LTX as they come in 18" tire too. Since I at least knew the Continentals worked I was not going to chance it again... So I waited 2 days for the Conti trac to come in from out of town . For TT towing there is no real good site that I know of out there. Tire rack has a lot of good info on it, but not really tailored to TT towing. So one reads and reads and ends up taking luck shot if the new tires will be OK or not.

Yes Steel Tex are no longer made. They had a recall on the 265 width and that nixed the entire line. While great for towing, they did ride a lot stiffer then the LTX did. But I learned.....

Good luck with yours and please do report back

John

PS it is suppose to hit 82F here on Sunday... Last week I raked pine cones and the next day it snowed on them.... What a difference in a week

[Jim-Bev-2363]

John, The rear overhang on the Ford Expedition is 61", axle to ball, for whatever good that does. ..... The Expedition has coil springs on all four corners. When they did a alignment after installing the previous new tires they showed the printout. All wheels were within specs and the front was closer to the high end. I was surprised to see the caster and camber specs on both the front and rear wheels.



When I returned home with the new tires yesterday, they had 40 PSI and that was not enough. I had noticeable wandering just driving around at 45MPH.

I returned home, inflated to 50PSI and the ride and control was acceptable for non-towing. I knew it would not be a good pressure for towing but tried it anyway for a point of reference and feel. As anticipated I had wandering so I added another 10PSI to hot tires in hopes of hitting 60PSI when cold. I probably have closer to 62/64 cold PSI. I'm eating lunch how to let them cool some. The ride wasn't bad but there was still some wandering so I'll double check the cool tire pressure and then inflate another 10PSI or to around 70PSI and ride around again after my afternoon nap.

jim




On a side note:
I have a pair of the rearview mirrors that clamp to the existing mirrors. they have heavy rubber straps and look good in the ads but in reality they vibrate like crazy. I was still able to see with them but I had to really study the mirror to see what was being shown, not the quick glance as usual. I also have a pair of fender mounted clamp on mirrors that I took the original flat mirror and installed a large bug-eye mirror. The driver side one is behind a post so I must shift my head some to even see it at all. The one on the righthand fender is easy enough to see but not really large enough for old eyes. I could get by with them, and have, but I didnt' like it. I also looked at some door mounted mirror that hook to the bottom edge of the window and have a strap to clamp to the bottom of the door. The problem I can see, without spending the fifty dollars to experiment, is that my door has a plastic moulding at the bottom and might bend if fastened tight or scrub if the strap is loose enough to not crush the moulding. I did see a mirror at wallywerld that sticks to the face of the TV mirror. It is claimed to be solid, with not vibration, but that is fourty bucks to experiment, again.

Ain't this towing fun?

jim

[EMD_Driver]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

Ain't this towing fun?

jim

Hey Jim...

Once you get everything dialed in and tow a few times, it will become second nature to you.

Have fun!

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Yes, This is fun for sure. Ninety degrees, no wind, and I'm checking hot tires, LOL!

I left the front at 60 since it felt solid on the front. The rear were at 64 and still shifty so I've now gone to 70PSI. Didn't someone post they used 60 front and 70 rear? It does feel like we're getting close. Hope we can leave them there when just riding around in the vehicle, non-trailered. I'll have to check to see about the tread wear. Would hate to haul the trailer and wear the tires out in just a few miles.

I hope you guys don't mind my running posts like this. It helps me keep track of what has been done and if I do something wrong 'we' might catch it sooner than later.

Letting the tires cool again before another run.

jim

[JohnB]

Hi Jim

No problem with the posts. This is a learning thing. Tire posts, both TV and TT have been good here on SOC.

Something just dawned on me. H'mm, this is your rig and nice looking I might add.



That Expy, is that the shorter one or the longer one they came out with when they stopped making the Excursion back in 2005? Nothing wrong with either just trying to learn what is is you have. What is the wheel base? The 61" over hang, OK but will compare that to the wheel base.

A question as you are sorting out the wander, have you towed the camper much with the older tires and did it wander there too? How many trips/miles have you made with the camper on the old tires?

Where I'm going with this is do you have some hitch setup issues going on along with the tire issues? Trying to separate hitch setup from tire pressure experiments.

4 wheel coils, h'mm that adds a dynamic here too. But it comes back to, how did it tow on the old tires first.

Mirrors, don't know if your bottom plastic door trim will allow these, but these work well. These are McKesh by Hensley. Camping World now has an alternate brand.







Once you have good towing mirrors you get spoiled quick. My son now has mine he uses for his PU. The F350 has Ford towing mirrors and they are good just I added the Round blind spot mirror to both sides to make them even better.

If these McKesh type mirrors are of interest, PTHutch here on the forum had a pair I think he was trying to sell. Don't know if he did yet or not. Drop him a PM if interested.

Good luck

John

[Jim-Bev-2363]

John, The Expedition is the EL, extended length, with a 121" wheelbase. When looking at the side view of the vehicle look at the back door. If it is straight it is the EL. If the door is shaped to clear the rear wheelwell then it is the shorter wheelbase. These Expeditions are a much lighterweight version of the excursion. I wish they still made them.

I have the hitch set so I have a half inch drop in the back. That is with two links dropped. I tried three links dropped but didn't like the feel of the steering. Just didn't feel comfortable.

I wish I had done more towing with the old tires but never happened. I only towed a few blocks home before going for new tires. The old ones were worn bad enough I didn't feel safe using them. I now have these tires set to 59/60 on the front set and 69/70 on the back. I did notice my tire gages read different. The hose gage is showing two pounds, about, less than the handheld dial gage. I was not pushed around my lane as before. I did feel slight effects but nothing that I feel is dangerous and absolutely nothing like before. I'll quit adjusting now until I can actually get out on the road for a trip for proper tests. As for riding around town with these pressures the ride is very firm but nothing I can't live with if the tire wear is even. That is more to be determined by time.

Again I used these plastic rubberband fastened mirrors but this time I did adjust them a little different. Instead of trying to push them out so far I held them closer to the factory mirror. It did reduce vibration so now if I can get Wifey to adjust her mirror right without getting mad at me we'll be OK for awhile. I do find myself using the factory mirrors on the passenger side most of the time and the snapon towing mirror on the driver side. I'll keep Hutch in mind for those mirrors, thanks.

I am also having to learn better towing habits because with and without are not only different they are on different planets, it seems. It is hard to not drive like Richard petty from light to light as usual. Somewhere there is a happy medium and I'll find it.

Now that the tires will change my speedometer and fuel readings it seems the MPG will be somewhere around 13 on the road in this flat as a pancake state. Maybe better if I do learn to drive more steady and keep the foot off of the floorboard.

jim