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Old 07-01-2007, 01:43 AM   #1
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SUN #328
bugbite
Splitting Hairs on a Close Call

I morphed on the Dometics so have to do this new thread.
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: Your rig

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John B,

2004 Sunline Solaris T2499
2003 Chevy K2500 Suburban, 6.0 with 4.10 rear end.
Quadrasteer, Jordan Ultra 2020, Putnum XDR reciever.
Reese HP trunnion bar hitch with HP DC

I like what I see.
So what is your assessment of the Reese?
Any idea on the wt?

We are splitting gnat butt hairs at this point as you can tellll.

Man I really want to be a part of the 'Sunline family."

Aside: this is a family joke, my SIL got a Toyota Celica mid 90s. She had a cracked head and aluminum block which was part of a recall later on. She wrote the prez of Toyota and raised a ruckus all up and down the line. She got them to fix it. They told her they wanted her to stay in the Toyota Family. She didn't dropped the Celica like a hot tater! I have a similar story on me and our 88 Cougar but I don't want to stir up the troops here.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00

Kathy,

I pay attention to siggys that state the TV and TT.

How did you manage on the F-150 and the Hensley?

Did Hensley even if you above wt. distribute enough as to not put much strain on the axles, joints, gears, and frame so far for you?

Given truth be known your frame is stronger than our Tundra's.

Is that your F-150 with a hatch? hard to tell in the pic?
How much wt. did that add?

What difference do you see hauling w/ F-150 Super Cab vs. F-250 Regular Cab?

I ask not to insult in the least. Each TV all of us have here have their inherent advantages and disadvantages. Then personal preference kicks in also.

Tundra's strengths which do not affect towing whatsoever is their Lexus engine which is reliable as all get out.

However the frame is not as stout as your Ford.

So I was joking... The Toyota can leave any 150 or 1500 in the dust on a drag race WOT but that is no help on a tow. Our Tundra we have never WOTTed. Only had it up 3/4 throttle and it went to 100 without a sweat in just spare seconds couldn't even tell we were going that fast. Felt more like 80. Lexus engine really is sweet and reliable. 4.7 is more efficient than others w/ higher cubics.

The WOT nuts on Tundra Solutions are real Einsteins!
VERRRYYY funny!

By comparison two diff creatures entirely our Toy to your 150.

Regular Gassers F-150 and definitely the 1500 Dodge the better tow vehicles vs. Tundra.

"A man just needs to know his limitations." Dirty Harry
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:18 AM   #2
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Poppy & Nana is an unknown quantity at this point
First we don't have a Hensley = we have an older Reese set up.

We mainly tow with the 150 - but the 250 is there is we need it.

The 150 tows the 2499 just fine......except steep hills, then we kinda slooww down, which is not a big deal for us.

We had the 1950 with an 2003 Explorer - towed like CRAP - bought the 150 - towed much better.

DH bought the 250, as his "work truck" = he is retired - but he wanted a new truck!

Anyway we tried towing the 2499 with the 150 because it has more room and a hard top cover...great for when we take the grandkids and we do a lot of dry camping, so the cover hides things we don't want other people helping themselves too (ie Honda generator, fire wood, coolers, etc.)...don't know how much it added, as we put it on from the start.

I did not realize you where sooo close in weight wiuth your set up - it might be time to reconsider "something".
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:59 AM   #3
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That is affirmative...

>>I did not realize you where sooo close in weight wiuth your set up - it might be time to reconsider "something".<<

We are thinking a good weight distributing hitch may help us out some. Still deciding. We aren't going to be loading our camper up like mabbe the average momma and poppa and baby bears.

He is more positive right now than I am. Imagine that! Thinks we can pull it off because of our engine and weight distribution, better rear end ratio, relatively new good range tires, stronger springs in rear.

I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach since he has lectured me over and over on the weight. I honestly thot we would have more slack room on wt than we had. Something and someones may require diets!

But he forgot that all of the weight doesn't all go forward with an equalizer some comes back on the trailer from the tongue.

Before the lectures I felt pretty good about the whole thing. Now I feel hosed know what I mean?

I still can't see pitchin the Tundra since he has it just so-so w/ 29K. And it has a lot of beauty in it to me the sucker is paid for.

Up in the air now honestly... I certainly want a nervous Nellie thing going on with wringing of hands later from the beloved. Would hose travel for me. Tense...

Waaaa! Maybe I am worried for nuttin I hope. Just don't want to be a Bubba going down the road looking like the hindwheels of bad luck know what I mean?

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Old 07-01-2007, 11:00 AM   #4
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I "think" this is the right post of yours to start this..... Ideally this is under the towing section but we will let the moderators sort that one out.

It sounds like you are trying to sort out will the TV you have be OK with a T1950 and what areas of the TV will I be OK at and which areas am I pushing it.

Is this your quest? If it is, we admire you for trying to sort this out in advance.

I am not into bashing any ones TV. All are good when they run and all good when used within there rated limits.

The hard part in creating a TV and TT towing solution is to understand where to go looking. For that us fellow forum members may be able to help you. I will give you the raw data of the areas of a TV and TT and where they land in relation to a TT and TV combination. Then it is up to you to figure out what area you want to push and which are tolerable. At least you know eyes wide open going into this.

Now to start this process.

I looked up the 2007, T1950 and this is what I see. The std camper from Sunline weighs 3770# GVW dry with a 420# dry tongue. That layout dry gives a 12.6% dry tongue weight per TT GVW. This is good start. Sunline does a good job to make sure you have good tongue weight to create low natural anti sway characteristics. These weights only tell us how the base TT is built. It does not have options, propane, battery or camping gear. But we know a lot form this number in the estimating process.

The point to figure out is, where will the loaded TT tongue come out at? Here some experience helps in determining this by understanding how a TT loads by looking at the floor plan.

The best why is to use actual loaded camper scale weights. But we never have them before buying it. Ask around if any one has actually scaled a T1950 loaded ready to go camping. Need TT GVW and tongue by it self from the TV. Then armed with that data you can really figure this out. Short of that we can come close in estimating when doing a little math with base data.

The 5,500# GVWR of the 1950 if you fill it to that number is towable by a large number of 1/2 ton vehicles. BUT that is the tug of war rating, not the axle loadings. For axle loadings we have to dig deeper. That is a big picture statement and will pan out or not when we dig deeper to what you have in the actual ½ ton vehicle.

The 1/2 or ¾ ton ton SUV towers have a different problems then 1/2 or ¾ ton PU towers. A PU will generally always be able to pull more and hold up more tongue weight then a SUV given the same engine and rear axle. This is just pure fact as the SUV just plain weighs more to start with. I have run the numbers more then once and this always comes out to be the case.

In my personal case, my TT design came with 14.5% dry tongue weight that when loaded the way I go camping came out to be 18.5% loaded tongue weight. And went to 20.5% loaded tongue weight if I filled the fresh tank to tow with. This translates into a 765# dry tongue to a 1,200# loaded tongue and 1,400# loaded tongue with fresh water. There is no 1/2 ton SUV on the market that I have found that can deal with a 1,200# tongue and not trip the axle ratings and go camping with. A 1/2 ton PU is different. The rear springs are heavier and so is the frame, plus the truck is lighter as there is no rear glass and upper body. Yes the devil is in the details. My case may be the extreme but is was my case.

Now back to your rig.

Fill in these blanks.

Did you go to the scales with your truck loaded with gear including people that you will camp with?

If so tell us this:

On the TV.

1. Scaled front axle weight.
2. Scaled rear axle weight.
3. Wheel base distance. Center from the front wheel to center of rear wheel.
4. Distance from the center of the rear axle to the end of the TV receiver pin box. We call this over hang.

Tell us these ratings: On GM's these are on the driver’s side door sticker. Do not know where yours are.
5. GVWR on your TV
6. Front axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-FRT)
7. Rear axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-RR)
8. GCWR on the TV.

On the TT (IF) these can be determined. Yes I'm going all the way here to show you how all this works. If you cannot get this we can work around it, just there will be some holes that are not filled in.

Ideally so I can calculate this:
9. Distance from TT ball center to center of front axle.
10. Distance from TT front axle to rear axle centers.

If you plan on towing with fresh water, Need
11. Distance from TT ball center to center of fresh tank.
12. On your 1950 we can estimate that you will add, 750 to 850# camping gear. This is actually a light camper as most are 1,000# and more. The larger the TT the more you can put in.

From this data we can estimate the loads and where you will land in relation to manufacture ratings.

On the actual hitch, the Hensley is hands down an outstanding hitch. Pending a number of factors you may have other options you could consider. We will get this once we know more about the entire setup.

I’m on the shores of Lake Erie right now and do not have all my data from home. A Reese 1,200# HP WD hitch weighs about ~ 80# to the TV if my memory serves me right. The HP DC adds weight to the TT and is not part of that. May be a few pounds off until I get back home to get the actuals. Hensley’s generic statement never said what it was comparing to. A 600#, 800#, 1,200# or 1,700# rated WD hitch. If the shipping weight from Phil is 200# that is a place to start. The struts add weight to the TT. The spring bars, hitch shank, linkage assemble adds weight to the TV. If you really want to sort this out, ask Phil, what weight will be added to the TV and what weight to the TT on a 800# or 1,000# WD hitch.

The Reese HP WD hitch with DC can give very good performance, however it will not solve an unstable TT balance problem or an over loaded rear axle problem generating sway.

We can work on your hitch once we have figured out where you stand on the TV/TT combo.

To your question on a WD hitch and axle loadings. A WD hitch of any brand, (when setup properly) the WD hitch helps transfer some weight off the rear axle to the TV front axle and some to the TT axles caused by towing on a ball hitch hanging xx inches behind the rear axle. The exact amounts are dependant on TV wheelbase, TV to ball overhang and TT ball to axle centers. When setup properly, the front axle will return to unhitched weight and maybe a little more, the rear axle will unload some from the heavy leverage of over hang and the TT axles will pick up a small % of weight. The numbers have shown many times that the rear axle even with WD still will bear almost all the weight of the TT tongue. Pending setup it may be 50 to 100# less than tongue but for estimating, it will bear the full tongue load. The WD hitch helps the TV not over bear the weight of the tongue caused by the heavy leverage effect that comes from towing on a ball hitch and putting the front end of the TV back to where it needs to be.

See what data you can dig up and we will see/show you how this sorts out.

Hope this helps.

John
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:07 AM   #5
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SUN #328
bugbite
First JohnB et al,

This is series of math mental molehills to go over. HIS.

And mine as is I want to enjoy our trips so he doesn't hose them worried all the time. So it's his reinforcing peace of mind at stake here which is important so I don't get hosed, before and during rides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
BB

I "think" this is the right post of yours to start this..... Ideally this is under the towing section but we will let the moderators sort that one out.

It sounds like you are trying to sort out will the TV you have be OK with a T1950 and what areas of the TV will I be OK at and which areas am I pushing it.

Is this your quest? If it is, we admire you for trying to sort this out in advance.

>>Man of La Mancha in the background... you have that right on the quest, dear JohnB.<<

I am not into bashing any ones TV. All are good when they run and all good when used within there rated limits.

The hard part in creating a TV and TT towing solution is to understand where to go looking. For that us fellow forum members may be able to help you. I will give you the raw data of the areas of a TV and TT and where they land in relation to a TT and TV combination. Then it is up to you to figure out what area you want to push and which are tolerable. At least you know eyes wide open going into this.

<<Thanks>>

Now to start this process.

I looked up the 2007, T1950 and this is what I see. The std camper from Sunline weighs 3770# GVW dry with a 420# dry tongue. That layout dry gives a 12.6% dry tongue weight per TT GVW. This is good start. Sunline does a good job to make sure you have good tongue weight to create low natural anti sway characteristics. These weights only tell us how the base TT is built. It does not have options, propane, battery or camping gear. But we know a lot form this number in the estimating process.

<<OK>>

The 1/2 or ¾ ton ton SUV towers have a different problems then 1/2 or ¾ ton PU towers. A PU will generally always be able to pull more and hold up more tongue weight then a SUV given the same engine and rear axle. This is just pure fact as the SUV just plain weighs more to start with. I have run the numbers more then once and this always comes out to be the case.

>>OK, with you.>>

In my personal case, my TT design came with 14.5% dry tongue weight that when loaded the way I go camping came out to be 18.5% loaded tongue weight. And went to 20.5% loaded tongue weight if I filled the fresh tank to tow with. This translates into a 765# dry tongue to a 1,200# loaded tongue and 1,400# loaded tongue with fresh water. There is no 1/2 ton SUV on the market that I have found that can deal with a 1,200# tongue and not trip the axle ratings and go camping with. A 1/2 ton PU is different. The rear springs are heavier and so is the frame, plus the truck is lighter as there is no rear glass and upper body. Yes the devil is in the details. My case may be the extreme but is was my case.

>> No water wt. needs to be filled in tank. We don't boondock.<< Our fatness of truck is the snug top and tubes, we can throw out the heavy full truck mat at 60 lbs or so. Plus us very fluffy 2 of us and 40 lb of dawg. 20 a piece.<<

Now back to your rig.

Fill in these blanks.

Did you go to the scales with your truck loaded with gear including people that you will camp with?

<<Yep, that would be full tank of gas, rubber mat, tub, us and throw in the doggies it's 5,580, but we are going to throw out the rubber mat at 60 so it's 5,520<<If>> I think we have 2-4 with the owner's manual<<Tell>> interesting on the larger ttt he more the load stuff we could have loaded in TT with a 1/2 ton with 5,520.<<From>> OK will get the above<[I]> Ron gave us the figure 175 actual wt. (true shipping) vs. the inflated shipping wt. of 200 (shipping and "handling" we are talking 25 in their pocket on weight to charge more.<<The>> DH is confident once the tongue is equalized we are a OK given some of the tongue and hitch weight goes backwards given we probably don't thow a buncha crud vs. a heavy kiddies extra stuff and kids in the front of a truck>>

To your question on a WD hitch and axle loadings. A WD hitch of any brand, (when setup properly) the WD hitch helps transfer some weight off the rear axle to the TV front axle and some to the TT axles caused by towing on a ball hitch hanging xx inches behind the rear axle. The exact amounts are dependant on TV wheelbase, TV to ball overhang and TT ball to axle centers. When setup properly, the front axle will return to unhitched weight and maybe a little more, the rear axle will unload some from the heavy leverage of over hang and the TT axles will pick up a small % of weight. The numbers have shown many times that the rear axle even with WD still will bear almost all the weight of the TT tongue. Pending setup it may be 50 to 100# less than tongue but for estimating, it will bear the full tongue load. The WD hitch helps the TV not over bear the weight of the tongue caused by the heavy leverage effect that comes from towing on a ball hitch and putting the front end of the TV back to where it needs to be.

See what data you can dig up and we will see/show you how this sorts out.

Hope this helps.

John
Sure does, help. This calculation should be a great illustration for anyone with 1/2 ton given their gross is 5,520 "wet." In most people's case that don't have the snug top and tubes but they do have the potentially say 2 heavy teenagers trade off. We won't be adding any to the 5,520 anything else in truck. That stuff we usually like I posted to kitty will go in the camper instead of the truck bed.

Anyway I predict as does the DH we will be fine on wts. the only question remains is it going to be the Hensley or the Reese Dual Cam given the Hensley is about 59 ish heavier than the Reese Dual If Phil is fibbing 25 lbs.

OK QUESTION! What does a Reece actually weigh folks???

Mr. Phil is fibbing probably 25 lbs too much on the actual Hensley wt.

Back to man of la Manchia thing.. the quest!

Hensley Arrow vs. Reese Dual Cam!


Isn't this fun???
Not.
But still a good illustration and more than one mental molehill to breach.

The devil is in the details. Perfectionist fusser and hoser potentiallly vs. a nice calm (as possible for type A) trip.

Can any one feel our pain
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:40 AM   #6
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I failed to get the actual "wet wt." in the TV.

As weighed on CAT 5,540.

2 tubby adults
1 rubber mat at 60 lbs
1 snug top
1 set of tubes
full tank of gas.

Subtract off 60 for pitching the rubber mat.
Add to 40 worth of dawgs.
Add to canine cover (10 lbs) and momma bear's purse etc. 5 lbs)

5,480 + 40 = 5,520 + 15 = 5,535

Actual Gross vehicle we slimmed down 5 lbs! Potentially less if we both go on a Solarius diet! That number is a not a given and is a secret!

Gross vehicle wt. allowed - Max Gross Truck 6,030

6,030 - 5,535 = 1,495 slop

Max Gross Combined 11,800 (TV and TT)

So what is the answer... the Hensley at 175 vs. mabbe the Reece Arrow 115 estimated?

Good grief!

Given just these estimation mabbe a Hensley Arrow can still be in our future (not withstanding the voodoo axle wt. whazzit tight calcs of JohnBs)


Repeat Q how much does a Reese Dual Cam actually weigh?


We can't depend on Mr. Phil!

What is the URL on Resse Dual?

All I find is the Hayward Reese in Aussieland.
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:14 AM   #7
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I don't suppose we have anyone out here on SunlineClub w/ a Tundra setup "wet" wt. on a CAT Scale ready to head out of town

TV Tundra 4x4 V8 4.7 285 cu" Lexus, Access Cab, Double Overhead Cam, Transmission Cooler, Rearend 3.92:1, Heavy Duty Rear Springs

More likely on the Tundra Solutions Tow Board for that question if I can get the DH to post that question.

[b]Passenger Wt. + Gear Wt. = your actual obesity poundage (vehicle gross) is ???.

Say any other 1/2 TV no matter the make ever ventured onto the scale to find out your truck gross wt fully loaded and ready to roll camping

Just...

HOW OBESE IS YOUR TV Gross LOL
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:59 AM   #8
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I apologize if this sounds complex. I am not trying to burry you in a ton of "stuff". Just trying to actually get down into the root details of a towing setup for you. I'll explain what each do when we can calculate the numbers.

You have given us some of the data. Let me fill in what you now have and then you can see what we are missing. If I have used words you do not understand, ask away so I can explain what to get better.

Here was the question list in blue. I filled in next to them what we have in red and some comments.

On the TV.
1. Scaled front axle weight.
2. Scaled rear axle weight.


Missing 1 and 2 yet. On your CAT scale weight slip there should be what each axle weighs, tell us the actual scaled weight of each axle. We will use these to see how you stack up on each axle loading


3. Wheel base distance. Center from the front wheel to center of rear wheel.
4. Distance from the center of the rear axle to the end of the TV receiver pin box. We call this over hang.

We are missing 3 and 4 yet. With these numbers I can use math (static moment calculations) to show you how much weight the TT tongue places/subtracts on the truck axles. If you cannot find these online or in your TV manual, you can use a tape measure and measure the truck the best you can.

Tell us these ratings: On GM's these are on the driver’s side door sticker. Do not know where yours are.
5. GVWR on your TV
you gave us 6,030#


6. Front axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-FRT)
7. Rear axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-RR)

We are missing 6 and 7. These ratings are max your axles can take. Front and rear are generally different. And both of these do not add up to the GVWR. They are more than the GVWR if added. They do this so you have some flexibility in loading a TV. However you can be under GVWR and over a Gross Axle Weight Rating. This one alone is what most do not know to go look for. We look at question 1 & 2 in relation to 6 and 7.

8. GCWR on the TV. you gave us 11,800#

On the TT (IF) these can be determined. Yes I'm going all the way here to show you how all this works. If you cannot get this we can work around it, just there will be some holes that are not filled in. These you will not find online that I know of. I have only been able to measure these. These help tell us how much weight the WD hitch will transfer to the TT wheels. For you right now, unless another forum member supplies these or you can measure them yourself at a dealers lot, you will not be able to get them. For right now I can estimate these. There are other forum members pictures online of a 1950 and we know the bumper to ball length of SunlineRV.com. So I can rough scale these numbers.

Ideally so I can calculate this:
9. Distance from TT ball center to center of front axle.
10. Distance from TT front axle to rear axle centers.

JohnB will estimate 9 & 10

If you plan on towing with fresh water, Need
11. Distance from TT ball center to center of fresh tank.

Since you will not tow with fresh water, we do not have to do these

12. On your 1950 we can estimate that you will add, 750 to 850# camping gear. This is actually a light camper as most are 1,000# and more. The larger the TT the more you can put in.

For right now will stick with the 850#. And I will make some estimates on how much your dry tongue weight will increase.

This math process the first time is a little bit of an exercise. However once it is shown to you and explained, it is not that complex. When you see the raw numbers you can see exactly where your TV/TT combination comes out. The problems have come on where to go looking. Forums like SunlineClub help others figure this out.

I have yet to find a dealer do this. It takes some time and they normally do not spend it on the sale. There may well be some very experienced dealers out there, and I hope there is, but I have not found them yet dig to this level. They just ask, what is your tow rating and how much does the TT weight? And they leave it you to make sure your rig is sound. In some cases this actually works if the TV is large enough to over come. However in most cases like in yours and other innocent camper folks, looking at only GVWR and Tow ratings will not cover all the variables.

Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

Thanks

John

PS one other question:

BB said

Quote:
BB said:
Gross vehicle wt. allowed - Max Gross Truck 6,030

6,030 - 5,535 = 1,495 slop
Something does not add up here. I subract those 2 numbers and come up with 495# left of cargo capacity before you reach GVWR. Did you do a typo?
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:59 PM   #9
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>> BB said:
Gross vehicle wt. allowed - Max Gross Truck 6,030

6,030 - 5,535 = 1,495 slop

Something does not add up here. I subract those 2 numbers and come up with 495# left of cargo capacity before you reach GVWR. Did you do a typo?<<

Yes typo

Make that 495 sounds grim doesn't it for a Hensley?

I'll get that book.

We may have to run Bubba
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:43 PM   #10
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JOHN B > Supplied Figures for TV / TT Calculation

John B


Here you go. Figures supplied by DH
I doubt if we fill up the tt to 850 of gear.

Thanks for doing this.

BB

----------------------------------------------


JohnB
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:59 am Post subject:


BB

I apologize if this sounds complex. I am not trying to burry you in a ton of "stuff". Just trying to actually get down into the root details of a towing setup for you. I'll explain what each do when we can calculate the numbers.

You have given us some of the data. Let me fill in what you now have and then you can see what we are missing. If I have used words you do not understand, ask away so I can explain what to get better.

Here was the question list in blue. I filled in next to them what we have in red and some comments.

On the TV.
1. Scaled front axle weight. Do not have CAT scale weights on front & rear axles, only total weight with two passengers, fiberglass Snug Top (~200 lbs.), full tank of gas (~26 gal.), 60 lb. rubber bed mat and 30 lbs. of tools. Total CAT scale weight 5540 lbs. ... approx. front and rear axle weights by (guessimate) ratio based on total weight with conditions specified: 2725 lbs. and 2815 lbs. respectively.
2. Scaled rear axle weight.

Missing 1 and 2 yet. On your CAT scale weight slip there should be what each axle weighs, tell us the actual scaled weight of each axle. We will use these to see how you stack up on each axle loading

3. Wheel base distance. Center from the front wheel to center of rear wheel. 128.3 in.
4. Distance from the center of the rear axle to the end of the TV receiver pin box. We call this over hang. 53 in.

We are missing 3 and 4 yet. With these numbers I can use math (static moment calculations) to show you how much weight the TT tongue places/subtracts on the truck axles. If you cannot find these online or in your TV manual, you can use a tape measure and measure the truck the best you can.

Tell us these ratings: On GM's these are on the driver’s side door sticker. Do not know where yours are.
5. GVWR on your TV you gave us 6,030# This is correct


6. Front axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-FRT) 3160 lb.
7. Rear axle ratings on your TV (GAWR-RR) 3760 lb.

We are missing 6 and 7. These ratings are max your axles can take. Front and rear are generally different. And both of these do not add up to the GVWR. They are more than the GVWR if added. They do this so you have some flexibility in loading a TV. However you can be under GVWR and over a Gross Axle Weight Rating. This one alone is what most do not know to go look for. We look at question 1 & 2 in relation to 6 and 7.

8. GCWR on the TV. you gave us 11,800# This is correct

On the TT (IF) these can be determined. Yes I'm going all the way here to show you how all this works. If you cannot get this we can work around it, just there will be some holes that are not filled in. These you will not find online that I know of. I have only been able to measure these. These help tell us how much weight the WD hitch will transfer to the TT wheels. For you right now, unless another forum member supplies these or you can measure them yourself at a dealers lot, you will not be able to get them. For right now I can estimate these. There are other forum members pictures online of a 1950 and we know the bumper to ball length of SunlineRV.com. So I can rough scale these numbers. Please estimate or "work around"

Ideally so I can calculate this:
9. Distance from TT ball center to center of front axle.
10. Distance from TT front axle to rear axle centers.
JohnB will estimate 9 & 10 Please estimate for T1950

If you plan on towing with fresh water, Need
11. Distance from TT ball center to center of fresh tank. Will not tow with any "fresh or waste" water weight.

Since you will not tow with fresh water, we do not have to do these

12. On your 1950 we can estimate that you will add, 750 to 850# camping gear. This is actually a light camper as most are 1,000# and more. The larger the TT the more you can put in.
For right now will stick with the 850#. And I will make some estimates on how much your dry tongue weight will increase. "Use 850#, but this will be high for us".

This math process the first time is a little bit of an exercise. However once it is shown to you and explained, it is not that complex. When you see the raw numbers you can see exactly where your TV/TT combination comes out. The problems have come on where to go looking. Forums like SunlineClub help others figure this out.

I have yet to find a dealer do this. It takes some time and they normally do not spend it on the sale. There may well be some very experienced dealers out there, and I hope there is, but I have not found them yet dig to this level. They just ask, what is your tow rating and how much does the TT weight? And they leave it you to make sure your rig is sound. In some cases this actually works if the TV is large enough to over come. However in most cases like in yours and other innocent camper folks, looking at only GVWR and Tow ratings will not cover all the variables.

Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

Thanks

John

-------------------------------------

Thank you John B!

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Old 07-04-2007, 02:48 PM   #11
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See if this helps any. I tried to look up your truck curb weight axle loads, but I could not find them on the web. We will use your estimates as they are closer than my guesses. Usually on a PU empty, the rear axle is lighter then the front, but with your gear inside, yours may be the other way around. I also did not know the year of your TV. I estimated a 2005 or 2006. I did find on the links below a slightly different GVWR that what you stated but since you may have read your off the truck or owners manual we will go with your 6,030#

In the future if you go to the scales, get both TV axles weights. Verses a combined weight. We can do more separate and you can add them to get a total. Truck stops have a 3 segmented scales where you can put TV front axle, TV rear axle and both TT axels on the 1 long scale all at once. They then give you a print out of all 3. And if you ever go to weigh the entire rig, there is a sequence of 3 trips over the scale to tell if the WD is setup correct. More on that in another post.

Here are some links I found on a 2005 to 2006 Tundra that matched your wheelbase as FYI.

http://www.automallusa.net/2006/toyo...fications.html

2005 Toyota News & Reviews | Automobile

http://www.truckswebsite.com/toyota-...toyota-tundra/

The T1950. I found these on dealers site. I was looking for where the outside cargo holes are. On the 1950 there looks like one in the back under the bed. We need to keep and eye on these cargo holes as campers can add a lot of stuff in there and it can add to or subtract from tongue weight. In your case it will subtract and need to make sure you do not get tongue weight too low or else TT sway can be causes by this.,

I had 2 sites but the one showing the rear cargo hole will not post.



Camper Gear (Stuff) and how much it weighs.

This can really fool ya. It is always amazing what stuff weighs. We where PU campers before the TT. And when we moved the PU gear to the TT, we had tons of left over room. Then over time, the room disappeared…. TT’s offer a lot more luxury items over the PU and we get use to them as the norm. This is the normal camper way of camping or at least for most. Everyone has different opinions of essentials or options. And all are OK.

So when I said 850# of camping gear that sounded like a lot to you. And it is a lot, But it is not all 1 item, it is a lot of little items all adding up. Again a realization.

In my case my TT layout loaded front heavy. And I have one of those nice large pass thru cargo holes. I ended up with 308# of stuff in mine which added 200# to the tongue weight alone. See here as stuff adds up.

The front cargo hole


The weighs of what is in the 308#


Here is gear I put in the back of my TV. This is 250# of stuff


Now to your wanted T1950. A very nice TT I might add.

3,770# Dry weight: 2007 1950 standard Solaris with alum siding. Source: SunlineRV.com
420# dry tongue weight: Source SunlineRV.com

Added Camping Gear and TT options:

TT Options: Source: SunlineRV.com
59# Spare tire (Actual)
60# Stabilizer jacks. (Actual)
50# Rubber ride axles (Actual). Do not know if you will get these or not.

Here are Camping gear estimates. This area more based on how I camp. You will be different but you can see how it all adds up. You may have more or less. Having he convenience of a TT will soon take over and you will add stuff… Just like the rest of us.

Camping gear and supplies:
42# qty 2, 20 # propane gas in the tanks filled. (Actual)
45# Group 24 battery and case. (Estimated)
20# Outside gas grill (Est.)
5# Outdoor grill cooking kit. (Est.)
100# Clothes, 2 adults, shoes, coats, etc. (Est.)
60# Perishable food in fridge (Est.)
80# Non perishable food stored in camper (Est.)
50# Pot’s pans, toaster, Crock pot, (Est.)
50# Silverware, cups, plates (Est.)
15# Cleaning supplies, dish soap, tank treatment etc (Est.)
30# Linins, sheets, blankets, pillows (Est.)
24# 3 gallons drinking water from home. (Est.)
20# Camp tools, axe, saw, broom
10# Camper games. (Est.)
20# Camper repair tool kit (Est.)
10# Outdoor patio lights, camper decorations. (Est.)
15# Toiletries, tissues, paper towels (Est.)

Subtotal 765#

27# Outdoor mud mats under awning (Est.)
8# Awning tie downs and straps (Est.)
10# Plastic bins to organize things for storing (Est.)
60# TV – VCR – DVD player and tapes (Est.)
20# Outdoor folding chairs (Est.)
15# Small vacuum cleaner - Dirt Devil (Est.)

Subtotal 905#

10# Wheel chocks (Est.)
30# Leveling wood for under TT tires. (Est.)
24# Screened in Sun(bug) hut (Est.)
100# Firewood (Est.)

Camping Gear (Stuff) Total above dry weight: 1,069#

Now to the TT and TV

First the Tug of war contest. The total Pull rating, Your truck has 11,800# GCWR

5,540# TV with people/gear
3,370# Dry T1950 UVW.
1,069# Gear and options added. I used the high number if you are less, this is better.
60# WD hitch
---------
10,039# GCW on a TV of 11,800# = 1,761 extra capacity. So far so good.

TT loading:
3,370# Dry T1950 UVW
1,069# Gear and options added. I used the high number if you are less, this is better.
-------
4,439# GVW with gear on a TT rated at 5,550#. TT has 1,111# extra capacity. So far so good.

Tongue weight: This one is a pure estimate only based on the generally layout and prior experience. It could easily be +-50 to 75#

420# dry weight from Sunline
45# battery weight
42# propane filled.
200# added from inside camping gear. This is an estimate.
-------
707# Estimated tongue weight.

707# / 4,439# GVW TT = 15.9% tongue weight. This is good for low natural anti sway

TV Axle ratings with TT hitch up and WD properly adjusted.

Appling a 707# tongue weight on a 128.3” wheelbase TV with 53” + 12” = 65” hitch bal over hang .

TV Front axle unloads 358.2# and TV rear axle gains 1,065.2#.

Appling proper set WD, transfers 358# to TV Front axle, transfers approx 175# to the TT axles and leaves 532# on the TV rear axle.

TV/TT hitched, loaded and WD applied.

2,725#, TV front axle. Returned to unhitched weight. GAWR-FRT = 3,160#
3,347# TV rear axle. Took on 532# for 707# tongue. GAWR-RR = 3,760#
60# WD hitch
--------
6,132# TV GVW. Here you are over. Using your 6,030 GVWR – 6132# = 102# over rating.

All this is estimations and the only way to get closer is go to the scales and weight things.

You are close and sitting on the limits. Pulling you can pull here on the east coast, west coast will have more issues. Go slow and take your time.

Axle ratings look OK

GCWR look OK with some reserve

GVWR is over the manufactures limit by 102#. Issues are, is the estimates high or low? The tongue weight calculations could be off +-75# so it helps or hurts.

You are at the limits of the truck and will need to go to a scale and weigh everything axle by axle and adjust things to stay under.

Key in all this is understanding where to look and where to move things around to help you.

I gave you the back up on how I came to all this so hopefully you can add/subtract as needed. Or if anyone see an error, please point it out.

Hope this helps. Good luck

John
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:26 AM   #12
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WOW thanks for this!

>>You are close and sitting on the limits. Pulling you can pull here on the east coast, west coast will have more issues. Go slow and take your time.

Axle ratings look OK

GCWR look OK with some reserve

GVWR is over the manufactures limit by 102#. Issues are, is the estimates high or low? The tongue weight calculations could be off +-75# so it helps or hurts.

You are at the limits of the truck and will need to go to a scale and weigh everything axle by axle and adjust things to stay under.

Key in all this is understanding where to look and where to move things around to help you.

I gave you the back up on how I came to all this so hopefully you can add/subtract as needed. Or if anyone see an error, please point it out.
<<

-------------

We figured we were at or some above the limit on total.

I love your illustrations. Really fun! Yes, you are right stuff does mount up.
I think the saving grace is putting stuff balanced and not bring the kitchen sink. Good think a TT has one! One advantage I see a TT has over PUPs is you don't have to bring quite as much plunder to be cozy.

Not planning on breaking any speed records but the Tundra does get away from you. Look down and it's amazing how fast we could go thinking we were going much slower. The Tundra pulled without feeling it much at all the PUP weighing approx. 1/2 of what a TT would weigh for us. DH will definitely feel it back there.

The variable you don't have is what an excellent driver my DH is. Very into thinking ahead and avoiding jerks on the highway. Never even had any near misses w/ the PUP.

Thanks for this break down!

Isn't the 1950 cute? Just right for us. Even if we had a 3/4 ton I doubt if we would need more. Just is easier and all we need for the 2 of us. I do think going long has some inherently more dangerous situations that could unfold.

Aren't you camping now? I can see you are really into this stuff!

Best regards and happy holiday!

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