Please tell me about your truck

[Tweety]

This is for when we can go full time, and have a larger trailer. I know I can look up tow ratings, but what I'd like is to hear from real people towing real trailers and how they feel about their combination. Thanks!

[Sunline Fan]

Pam,

I'd highly recommend the Excursion/Super Duty diesel. I have the V10, and while it's a great engine, it's not so great on gas. The diesel can haul pretty much any size TT or 5th you get, and get pretty good mileage compared to the gasser. As I've said before, we don't use our V10's for long trips, we use the MH. The longest trip I've towed with my mom's Ex was about 4 hours, at 6.6 MPG, pulling a ~8000 lb. TT. The V10 was terrible for going up hills, so if you plan on travelling out west in the mountains, you'll want the diesel.

Jon

[PTHutch]

Hi Pam,

We just purchased (a year ago) a new tow vehicle preparing for the empty nester – extended travel phase of our lives. Plus we needed a larger tow vehicle for our new Sunline. We got a GMC Sierra 2500HD LT Crew Cab 4x4 with the Duramax diesel engine and Allison transmission.

Here’s a picture of our new set-up:


The diesel gets better gas mileage than a gas engine and it’s better towing, but also costs a lot more. It’s personal opinion if the cost out weighs the advantages. Some of the reasons why we chose a diesel was:
> Towing (don’t have to worry about towing over any mountain when we go out west).
> Mileage – any increase in mpg helps.
> Extended length – should have no problem getting 250,000 miles on the tow vehicle as long as the body holds up.
> Duramax diesels are very quite, that’s why we chose GMC over Ford or Dodge. I've always be partial to Ford tow vehicles, but switch to GMC because of the quiteness of the Duramax and the Allison transmission.
> Allison transmissions are fantastic, and a LOT smarter than me.

We have about 13,000 miles on the GMC. I’ve heard that it takes ~25,000 miles to fully break in a diesel so that it's running efficiently and you start getting top mpg. The truck is just about 1 year old now and I’ve been tracking the mpg at every fill-up and here’s what I’ve been averaging so far:

Overall Avg. 17.5
Highway – Solo 18.3
Every Day – Solo 17.1 (I do very little city stop & go driving)
Towing 11.3 (pulling ~8,000 lb trailer loaded)

The one big advantage to the Allison Transmission and the Tow/Haul mode is its grade braking. We took a trip to Maryland over Memorial Week-end and came down Rt. 15 through PA. Coming down one hill where the speed limit was 45 for trucks, I touch the brake once to initiate grade braking and slow down to 45 mph, didn’t touch the gas peddle or brake after that, and the Allison transmission kept the speed at 45 mph. It was unbelievable.

We got the Crew Cab for extra room, the back seat is comfortable for adults. Though I have to admit I miss the extra room that we had in our pervious tow vehicle, which was a Ford E-150 Conversion Van. The Conversion Van was great for extended trips with the kids and pets and with the 5.4L engine pulled our T-2670 with no problems We took two different 5 week family trips with our old set up. Now, it’s mostly just us and the pets. We haven’t taken any extended trips with it yet, just destination trips so far. The extended trips for us are still a few years away I think, college tuitions are the priority now (tuition for 3 kids in college ).

You’re smart to start researching and looking at options now.
My suggestions:
1. Look at everything and don’t let anyone talk you into something.
2. Get a tow vehicle with the most capacity (i.e., towing, GVWR, GCWR) you can afford. (Have you ever heard anyone in a campground say they wish they had a smaller tow vehicle?).
3. Don’t forget, what ever you get pulling, you also have to get it stopped. So don’t just look at towing capacity, also look at stopping capability.
4. Get advice from people that are doing or have done, what you’re thinking about doing. That is, if it’s full-timing or extended trips. We probably will never be full-timers, but I hope that at some point in the future we’ll be able to do extended trips (i.e., 3 to 6+ months at a time).

Good luck, let me know if you have any questions.
If you want, you're welcome to check out our set up at the PA M&G.
Hutch

[Sunline Fan]

Hi Pam,

Since Hutch put a pic in, I thought I'd do the same:


I would personally choose a Ford because I like to hear the engine. Most of the time I ride with the radio off, but that's because I have a hard time hearing the gasser . I have heard great things about the Allison though. We have a 6 speed Allison in the MH (paired with a 350 Cummins ISC) and have had no problems whatsoever, but we only have 16000 on the clock.

I hear so many good things about the Ford diesels. A friend of mine has a '02 with the diesel and has 110,000 on his. Only major issue has been the power steering pump at ~95,000. A friend of his has a '00 diesel and rolled over 400,000 last year. BTW, both have run Amsoil since new.

Jon

[What6308]

The debate is there, and will always be there on which combos are the best. First figure out if you want a auto or a manual tranny. It sounds like a no brainer, but in resent years, Dodge has had the better Manuals on the market. Where GM takes it home with the Allisons. Ford had a great motor with the 7.3 Power Strokes (Either the Natural Asp. or the Turbo). The 6.0 PS was a dog on shop time, but with the new motor there has been a lot of time spent on rebuilding the rep. the 6.0 has given the PS over the last few years. The new cummins is a pretty stout motor (6.7L, as was the 5.7L) The major hold back was the Auto trany before the 2007 MY.

When you are talking under about 10-12K lbs, either one of the big three is going to be a pretty close game, but when you get over those numbers it really changes your options. Personlly I would love a Dodge Mega-Cab 3500 Dually, but I think the weight I have in mind is closer to the new F450. RV/TTs are a hobby, but our real sport is four-wheeling Jeeps, and we travel with two. Most of my pulling are in freinds TRs with a close to 12K or more behind us.

Another good source of info and research from folks that run them can be found at: http://towrig.com/forums/index.php .

Good luck, and don't forget to just ask the dealer if you can hook up the trailer and take it for a spin. A good dealer will let you, with th price of trucks these days you should have the customer service you would over at the Land Rover dealership.

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by What6308

Ford had a great motor with the 7.3 Power Strokes (Either the Natural Asp. or the Turbo). The 6.0 PS was a dog on shop time, but with the new motor there has been a lot of time spent on rebuilding the rep. the 6.0 has given the PS over the last few years.

That's right, I forgot to mention if I were to buy a PSD, I'd go for the 7.3 any day. I've heard stories of tweaking them to get 21 MPG!

Thanks for sticking up for Dodge . I have another friend who owns a C-J dealership and loves his Dodge trucks. All three have great trucks, and you can't go wrong with any one of them.

Jon

[kanyonkitty]

'05 F-350 Lariat 4x4, 18" wheels, Line-X, loaded to the gills except snow plow and ambulance packages. GVWR of #11,400lbs. Way more truck than I needed, but I saw it liked it, and hadn't decided which Sunny I was going to order, so wanted to make sure I had plenty of truck. And no it's not lifted, that is the factory suspension.

[img]

Kitty[/img]

[Mark]

Before you buy anything check the car/truck magazines for 2007/2008 models. Chevy has a new 2500 out that is getting rave reviews.

The new Ford 250's are pretty awesome looking too, and of course Toyota has the new Tundra (different class, but worth your time).

[donreitz]

You ask about trucks and you're sure get a lot of responses. If you haven't already, you might want to visit the tow vehicle forum at rv.net as well. It's helpful as long as you ignore the my-Chevy-is-better-than-your-Ford threads.

Others have already given you good advice. My only contribution is to suggest you look at diesels if you intend to purchase a dedicated tow vehicle. We've towed with a series of Suburbans and Tahoes over the years and had good luck with all of them. These were good choices for us because we needed vehicles that could tow and serve as second cars. Once the kids flew the coop we decided a dedicated tow vehicle was the way to go. Never having had a truck we did a lot of research. Our first inclination was to get a half-ton (Chevy 1500). However, finding out that the added cost of a 3/4-ton was minimal we moved up to the Chevy 2500. At this point we hadn't even thought about a diesel. However, after test driving a 2500 with the Duramax/Allison combo--which opened our eyes as to how easy towing could be--we never looked back. You certainly do pay a premium for the diesel option, but in return you get (1) better mileage and (2) way easier towing. To me, the ease of towing makes the added cost worthwhile (cruising the interstate at a steady 1,700 rpm up hill and down is relaxing), the better mileage is just icing on the cake. All the domestic manufacturers make good diesels, but the Duramax/Allison is a true wonder. The Allison is so smart it has its own owners manual.
Hope this helps.
Don

[Tweety]

Things are becoming clearer - thanks. The problem is that I want a truck that I can drive around town, but I want the performance of a diesel for towing. We drove the Tundra and the GM 2500 D/A. Love the fit and finish and ride of the Tundra. Felt like I was driving a car. GM reminded me of my trailblazer and the little annoying problems it's had, and it rode like a truck I think what I need to do is come to terms with the fact that what we need is a dedicated tow vehicle.

[PTHutch]

Hi Pam,

I hear you. We got the LT interior in our GMC 2500HD which is nice and comfortable, but it still rides like a truck .

If only we could have our cake and eat it too .

[What6308]

The new GMs have two interior options, one is called “Pure Truck” and the other I am fuzzy on the name but has something to do with luxury, I just can pull it out of the back of my head. The two of them are complete opposites every little and major part of the interior.

[JohnB]

Hi Pam

Right now your little Que fits a lot of towing options. But you said you where looking at larger trailers and that might bring a new tow vehicle.

And then the ‘rides like a truck’ comments.

I’ll give you a little perspective from my experiences. This may be a little long winded but may help you and if it helps you, then it was worth the time to type it. I use to be a ½ ton truck tower. Especially in the SUV’s. And I have had F350 and C3500 dual axle trucks, and F100 PU but for hauling weight not towing.

The term larger TT means a lot of different things to different people. First there is the weight rating, frontal area and lengths of the TT. And each present different things to a TV.

I had 2, 1500 Tahoe SUV trucks. A 1997 and a 2002. I have towed dual axle cargo trailers with each and on this type of pulling, the Tahoe had done well. This cargo type trailer even if it is 6 x 12 foot, can have weight but is low frontal area and the length is different in relation to a TT. Pulling 6000# to 7,000# in a 6 x 12 cargo trailer is totally different than pulling 6000# in a TT. The cargo trailer was shorter and the weight could be balanced out so the tongue weight was lighter and did not need WD and had no sway controls and the Tahoe did a good job. Yes I knew it was back there, but I was pulling 6000# and it adds pull.

To the truck and the Chevy dealers that type of towing is mostly about weight. So as most auto dealers look up in a book on tow rating and say, yup it will tow it no problem. And in this case of cargo trailers or boats it will tow it and be OK.

The TT presents new challenges to towing. Yes first is the raw pull weight. But it only part of the equation of a stable, pleasant towing rig. Added to the weight is frontal area of the TT. All the area outside the area of the truck itself, creates wind drag. And that drag eats up truck pulling performance regardless of the weight. Ford is the first auto maker that I have found now states a limit on frontal area. They list if 60 sq feet of frontal area is exceeded then towing performance can be affected. However they do not go on to say what that means. How bad is bad? But at least they recognize it as a factor. Most larger TT’s exceed this rating or are sitting right on top of it.

When I towed my T2499 home with my ½ ton SUV Tahoe empty weighing in at ~5,000#, I had a major eye opening experience. It was not the weight that caused my issues as that same truck and the one before I pulled 7,000# of cargo trailer and it pulled it OK. Here this TT which is 2,000# lighter is like I’m dragging a major tree stump back there and it won’t let go. The change was frontal area, not weight and none of this shows up in the Chevy tow ratings. Nor most others auto makers either.

Well I made it thru that understanding and talked myself into well it is still within the pull ratings and I’ll have to just deal with it. And then I fell in the next problem. Axle loadings. Every TT layout is built different and the way it is built affects the stability of the TT for sway and how much tongue weight the TT has and needs for stable towing. Here is where my ½ ton Tahoe had issues. When the TT was empty, other than some one tying a dead stump to the back of the TT I was well within all truck ratings. Then I started to fill up the camper with gear, and put some gear in the truck and that’s when all my issues started. My TT layout is such that it loads heavy to the TT tongue. So heavy that it overloaded the ratings on my rear axle, tires and almost on the truck Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. While I could pull the TT, I could not hold it up.

Both the TT and Chevy dealer said I would be fine. They looked up in there book and said, how much does the TT weigh and this is the tow rating on the truck. Your in good shape. I fell into the trap a lot of innocent camper folks do. I was not educated enough about TT towing, WD hitches and TT loading to tell if what they where telling me was OK or not and they swore on a stack of bibles I would be OK with plenty to spare.

After realizing the problem I bought myself into, I had to correct it before I tore up my truck, blew out a tire or worse caused an accident with the setup. I have been around machinery all my life and know when you press it beyond it limits, it’s only a matter of time before some thing breaks.

This started a full scale investigation and learning experience for me on what all this fine print in the truck manuals, TT sites and vehicle ratings mean. Then after realizing just how bad I was, we loved Sunny to much and the Tahoe had to go. So we found a good used ¾ ton Suburban.

My ¾ Ton Suburban now is matched to this TT very well and I within the limits of the vehicle with some to spare. The TT with water, people, camping gear and TV weighs in 14,500# on a truck rated to pull 16,000# in Gross Combined weight. (GCWR) Notice I do not use Tow rating. The GCWR is the real tug of war pull rating the engine, transmission and rear axle are rated to pull. Most TT and TV dealers do not use that number, the GCWR. They use the Tow rating which is derived from the GCWR and until you read all the fine print on what tow rating really is, you can get fooled real quick that a TV can pull a TT. Using the GCWR is everything the engine, .tranny and rear axle are rated to pull. That is the right rating to use. The key is figure out how to add it up. It is not that hard to do once some one explains it to you. If you are not into all these numbers, let us know and we will help you with this as well.

The next are deals with TV axle weights. The front axle, the rear axle and the total load rating of the truck. The front and rear axle ratings add up to more than they rate the truck to carry but yet you do not want to exceed the truck Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. They do this to give flexibility on how you load the truck.

On larger TT’s is where the ¾ ton truck suspension helps greatly. This is especially true in the SUV world and can be in the PU truck world. A ½ ton PU truck can hold up and pull more added cargo weight than a ½ ton SUV in most all cases even with the same engine and rear axle ratings and GCWR. The SUV just plain weighs more so it subtracts what weight you can add to the camper or truck as cargo.

The ¾ ton suspension also comes with larger brakes, heavier transmission, and better tires, and most times a larger engine. Basically a heavier duty vehicle. The price difference for the ½ ton to ¾ ton suspension is not that much and you are getting a better suspension for holding up larger TT tongue weights and adding gear to the TV. A ½ ton PU can do this too, but you have to watch the weighs closer. And do not let me leave you with the impression that a ¾ ton truck can hold up anything. You still have to do all the math on them too, it is just they can carry more until the limit is reached. It is easy enough with a large TT to overload a ¾ ton PU pending what stuff you put in the truck bed.

The ¾ ton PU with Crew cab gives more inside people space, not as much as the large SUV, but are very nice. The one Hutch has is a beauty. Boy that’s a nice rig.

Now the next is the diesel verses gas. There is a lot of debate around this and I’m not going to go there as both can be good pullers. I’ll give some of other things to think on. Where do you want to go camping? Hear on the east coast, my truck and gas engine does well in the pulling department. If I take that same combination out west and do a lot of towing at elevation that same gas engines suffers faster in pulling unless they are better equipped.

It comes down to getting air into the engine and there is less air to the engine at higher elevations. Most diesel trucks have a super charger or turbo charger to jam more air in the engine so they do not suffer the pulling power lose like a gas engine without one. If you add that turbo/super charger to the gas engine, it too will not suffer as bad. You can also help overcome this by buying a large big block V8 gasser where you have lots more power then you need so when you loose some, it does not hurt so much.

The rule is 3% power loose per every 1,000 feet on the non turbo/super charged engines. So at around 8,400 feet just throw away 25% of your cylinders and that what it feels like. Or turn a V8 into a V6.

Now lastly the “rides like a truck”. The new ¾ and 1 ton trucks are night and days better then they use to be. My last 1975, F350 actually gave me a stomach ache driving it around town empty it bounced so hard. Put 3 ton of weight on it and WOW it was very smooth. The newer GM’s, Fords and Dodges have become a whole lot better in ride. BUT they will still be stiffer than a ½ ton in ride. My ½ ton Tahoe was a cream puff of a ride. But it could not do the job. My ¾ ton now rides stiffer, but is tolerable empty but again rides very smooth when pulling the camper. I let out the rear tires down to 55psi when non towing and up to 80 psi when towing and it helps even more on the bounce when non towing. So if you are buying this as a TV, well, most of the time you are towing when it rides nicer.

So in closing here is mine as a pic and I am very happy with it and will never go back to the smaller truck unless I get a smaller camper.



Hope this helps tell you some of where to go looking and prompt more questions as you sort this out. Find the TT you want/love, then go find the right truck to tow it.

Good luck

John

[donreitz]

This is an interesting thread. I'll throw in another two cents as a follow-up to John B's comments. We've owned Tahoes, Suburbans, and now the D/A. I'd say the best general tow vehicle in existence is the Suburban. It hauls kids, mulch, trailers and pretty much anything else you need moved, with ease. And unless you're into seriously big RVs, properly equipped it will tow any trailer you'll ever want.

There's no doubt the Silverado 2500 is a rough-riding vehicle when not towing something--not a kidney-buster but rough nevertheless. If you find this troubling then by all means look at a Suburban 3/4 ton. The ride is perfectly comfortable if not exactly pillow soft.

When we replaced our tow vehicle last year we started out looking at Suburbans, but when we discovered the benefits of diesel engines we had to look elsewhere. The new Suburbans are gorgeous vehicles so it was difficult to have to ignore them. It did help, though, that we spent substantially less for the truck than we would have for a Suburban.

Here's another reason for our buying a truck: dirt. I'm finicky about the cleanliness of my vehicles, and running around the country with a trailer is dirty business. So I spent a fair amount of time sweeping, wiping, and washing the vehicles to keep up with the wear and tear of trailer travel. A few years ago when we were camping in Michigan's Upper Peninsula we were hit by a thunder storm. I was throwing wet, dirty, sandy equipment into the clean, carpeted back of our Suburban for protection when I thought it would be so much nicer to throw the stuff into the back of a truck where the bed could simply be hosed out when it got dirty (I was thinking camper shell as well). That thought never left me and the possibility of being able to just toss dirty stuff into the back of the vehicle without having to worry what it was doing to the carpet or trim was too good to pass up. That muddy piece of outdoor carpeting? What the heck just throw it in the back. This, along with the benefits of a diesel sold us on the D/A.

To my way of thinking what tow vehicle makes sense in this situation depends on if that vehicle is dedicated to towing or if it serves as a second car. If you're hauling kids around or taking the garden club on excursions as well as towing a trailer, you'll need the seating and comfort of a Suburban. If, on the other hand, you plan to use the vehicle mostly for towing and not as a second car, consider a truck.

Don

[Tweety]

Well folks...thanks for all the advice. We picked up our new maroon GMC Sierra extend cab, long bed, diesel/alison this morning. Took it to a wedding 30 miles away, and are home waiting for the 5:00 reception. We name all our vehicles and this one is named "the beast" It's a second vehicle (3rd if you count the kid's car), but the kids are out of here, so it was bought with the thought of lots of towing a couple of years from now. It rides like a truck, but it's fantastic, and boy does it MOVE on the highway. And our son the Hokie, gave us a huge VT Hokie bird magnet that looks fantastic on the tailgate! (since the VT colors are maroon and orange)

[JohnB]

Pam

Wow! Thanks great! Good for you. You will be a happy camper I'm sure.

The phrase, "I didn't even know it was back there" for once might actually apply when you hook up the Que and go camping....

Now that you have "The Truck", when will "The Camper" be coming and what brand/model will it be?

Good luck in the new TV.

John

[kanyonkitty]

Congrats Pam,

You will be amazed at the power you have available. Hum, rides like a truck, well, "IF" you really want to "feel rides like a truck", we'll have to meet and I'll take you for a ride. I test drove a GMC and still bought the Blue Beast. The difference in the ride between the two of them is amazing. But, I still chose the F350 because I liked it better (and my mechanic at the bus garage does side work and he is a Ford man). You will be very happy with your decision. NOW, you need to locate a Sunline 5th Wheel. Actually I do know where there is one for sale , and maybe another one. Now, that would be a great looking combo . Good Luck,

Kitty

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by donreitz

This is an interesting thread....

When we replaced our tow vehicle last year we started out looking at Suburbans, but when we discovered the benefits of diesel engines we had to look elsewhere. The new Suburbans are gorgeous vehicles so it was difficult to have to ignore them. It did help, though, that we spent substantially less for the truck than we would have for a Suburban.

Don

Don,

Yes this is an interesting thread. A lot of good points of view being stated and no one running over the next person. A quite refreshing thread and as it is on our entire Sunline Club for that matter.

You did point out a few things I missed, the dirt. On my truck and camper I have been accused of being a fuss pot before as well. It took a long time and a lot of hard work to get what we go camping in and upkeep is on the top of my list.

The PU has the other advantage of the bed. You can add a cap or a cover and get a lot of room if you are going out west for months at a time. And the GVWR on the 2500HD’s outweighs the 2500 Burb hands down. And now the crew cabs have it so nice inside it is like ½ the Suburban. Or at least from the back of the bed to the front grill.

I have been in the SUV world since 1989 when I bought my first one. A S15 Jimmy. Cost was $18,500 brand new off the lot. My son still has it now and he fixed it up as a collector. Ever since then I have been in the SUV. Moved up to the 97 Tahoe OBS and it was a great running truck. I really hated parting with it when I traded for a New 2002 Tahoe. And in 2002 the sticker shock of what these things cost had settled in big time. OUCH.

In 2003, we bought DW a Trailerblazer new. Darn thing was almost as much as the full size Tahoe.

My last PU was in 1980, a F100 for $7,500 new. For those that remember the actual F100, now that the F150 has come along. And since then I had never looked at a PU again until about a year ago. We always had the F350 stake body on the farm for hauling up until a while ago when I sold the place and moved out to Ohio.

Then in 2004 we bought the T2499 Sunline, and as my other post said, it was not a good match to the 2002 Tahoe for long term. I really wanted a new 2500 Burb at the time but when I saw the sticker, Oh my goodness, and I could not swing a new one right after getting the TT. I was already sticker conditioned from 2002 but still it was not in the cards. I happened to be in the right place at the right time when I picked up the used 2003 K2500 with Quadrasteer on top of it. It’s sliced bread for towing.

And in all the investigation I started looking again at the 2500HD’s and the Duramax/Alli. Well comparing it to a new Burb, darn the Silverado is cheaper and a lot more truck. I never realized that. Even in the 2500 HD gassers as compare to the K2500 Burb was significant.

In 2007 GM dropped the 8.1 big block in the Burb and changed the whole towing platform in the 2500 series Burb. And Ford has dropped the Excursion a few years earlier. So for the SUV towing folks the choices are dwindling. I’ll keep the one I have now until it drops or if I ever get a bigger camper. With gas going nuts lately, my 26 foot TT may become a really big one some day.

So if and when I ever have to get another TV and I’m still pulling like I have, the 2500HD will be the starting point unless GM seriously puts back in the Burb what they took away in 2007.

Good discussion.

John

[donreitz]

Pam:
You're going to find out that Allison transmission is so cool. Read the owner manual and be impressed. I still grin when taking off-ramps and not having to use the brakes much as the transmission (in Tow/Haul mode) downshifts to slow me down. Like you, we chose the extended cab rather than the crew cab as we don't have the need for that much extra space--that's what the bed is for. I don't know what size fuel tank your Sierra has, but we replaced our Chevy tank with a 45 gallon Transferflow tank and love it. Having the extra capacity adds immensely to one's peace of mind especially when traveling to out of the way places.

John, we pulled our 2499 with a 2000 Tahoe for awhile. The Tahoe was stone cold reliable and it pulled like a champ, but the 2499 was at the limit of the Tahoe's abilities. While we always got to where we were going, I usually ended the day with a stiff neck and sore shoulders from the tension of trying to keep a steady road speed. The only time we lacked for power was climbing Interstate 80 through the Rockies. Traveling east toward the Eisenhower Tunnel, we had to put it in first gear on the steeper sections.

Before buying our truck I broached the subject of buying a used Suburban with my wife. I figured we could get a reasonably priced unit that had enough newness worn off of it so I wouldn't feel so obliged to keep in in pristine condition. Well, that went nowhere. My wife wasn't about to travel long distances to remote locations in anything less than a new vehicle under warranty. As a result we became truck people.

Don

[Tweety]

I know if I ask my questions here people will be polite, and no one will bash anyone else (or their truck). Trying to get information off of other forums can be a chore, with all of the naysaying that goes on. That's one of the wonderful things about this message board - Everyone just wants to be helpful