Maintaining an older camper tow vehicle (pic heavy)

[mainah]

Up here most of the fix it shops have rolls of plated brake line hanging on the wall. I would say the worst I have see on brake lines were the Chevy's. I'm so glad I don't work on this stuff anymore! Well John after all this you need to enter your truck in a car/truck show you surely will come home with the prize.

[jim44646]

After reading your post I now remember using the lift plates to jack my body.
Harbor freight sell a sweet one person vacuum bleeding kit. I also use it to vacuum out reservoirs like break fluid reserviore, power steering pump reserviore.

[jim44646]

Originally Posted by mainah

. I would say the worst I have see on brake lines were the Chevy's.

Chevys are bad but Dodge rams are bad also. Had Ram break line blow on a camping trip, Sunday of course. Used trailer breaks to get home.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jim44646

After reading your post I now remember using the lift plates to jack my body.

Harbor freight sell a sweet one person vacuum bleeding kit. I also use it to vacuum out reservoirs like break fluid reserviore, power steering pump reserviore.

Lift plates, h'mm you mean an air bag setup?

Brake bleeder, I have one of these kits with the larger jar, https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MITMV...omotive&sr=1-4

Did you mean something like that, OR a fluid extractor? The fluid extractors are a higher volume setup. One of these?
https://www.harborfreight.com/search...id%20extractor

[JohnB]

Here is an update. The cab lift went well. Slow, but it all worked good. Pics below. I ended up not going a full 12 inches up which I would of shoved a 4 x 4 across the frame. After I was 8" up higher, I could see that was plenty of room, so I changed methods on how to hold up the cab. I just blocked it up using the cab mount brackets.

On the lift, going slow, about 1/2" lift on one jack, then go all around and equal them out and then go up another 1/2". Once you make it to 1 1/2" up, slide a 2 x 4 to stack each time onto the cab brackets as a safety and keep on going up. Once I was up as high as I wanted to go, take the little block stacks out and put a 6 x 6", 2 x 6 and a 2 x4 to make the resting block height and remove the jacks/lifts.

Here is the lift setup. I had to be creative to work with what I had and feel good the setup was stable.

The back of the cab lift


The plywood is so the lift arms do not scratch the cab by accident. The C clamps are holding a piece of angle iron in place to spread the lifting load point out of a larger area and not have hook damage on the sheet metal edge.


The front lift, 2, floor jacks with a 6 x 6 post and 2 x 4 on top to not get a grain spilt on the 6 x 6 by accident.



Doing the cab lift was well worth it. The rust on the top of the 2 cross members under the back of the cab needed a good treatment. Road slop just lays on the horizontal surface. No way could you access this well with the cab on other then a squirt spray treatment.






Some pics of the frame clearance that now exists. I can rust scrap it, clean it. acid etc it and coat it a lot easier.








This LH side frame area was totally congested with the fuel lines, brake lines, electrical harness to the back of the truck and the transfer case hanging over. I was able to take the clamps apart on that bundle and moved it over to the center. Now this side is accessible to clean and coat the full frame.


This afternoon, I scraped and brushed off another 4 lbs of dirt and rust. Tomorrow starts the degreasing and acid etch process.

And the best thing, I can kneel and see and work on the frame. No more laying on the creeper working overhead.

One request for the future, consider throwing out these good ideas I can build on about 2 weeks earlier. Cleaning the frame under the cab on the creeper working overhead was the worst before the good ideas came in.


Thanks

John

[jim44646]

I meant there are reinforced lift points on bottom of cab.




PITTSBURGH AUTOMOTIVE

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...der-92924.html

This brake fluid bleeder works with your air compressor to make brake bleeding an easy one-person job. Flush and refill the entire brake system by yourself with consistent controlled air pressure.

Convenient one-person operation

Flush and refill entire brake system

Works on disc or drum brakes

Auto-refill kit uses gravity to automatically refill the master cylinder with brake fluid during usage

Adapters for most master cylinder reservoirs

Owner's Manual & Safety Instructions (PDF)

Item# 92924

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jim44646

I meant there are reinforced lift points on bottom of cab.

PITTSBURGH AUTOMOTIVE

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...der-92924.html

OK, got it now on the cab lift plates. GM makes their truck cabs different. Ford does not have that same setup. The front area I used was like in the video I linked, where a lot of weld seams come together making it several thickness and more rigid at the firewall area. The rear of the cab has an area similar, but I only had floor jacks and could not use them. I had to improvise and use the back wall with some angle reinforcing.

The harbor freight vacuum, a compressed air venturi vacuum pump. That does look good for an extractor pump for what you mentioned and a brake fluid bleeder. Will look at them next time I'm in the store.

Thanks for passing along.

John

[jim44646]

The tall bottle attached to break fluid reserviore filled with break fluid as not to run master cylinder dry. break lines hold allot of fluid. Buy plenty of fluid.

[mainah]

Having dealt with cantankerous brake systems in my former life two methods we used were vacuum and reverse bleeding. Draw a vacuum on the master cylinder and pull the fluid through (I believe they actually make a kit for that now not very expensive) or force the fluid backwards through the bleeders to fill the cylinder. The pressure is minimal it flows pretty easy years ago I actually used a oil squirt can and a rubber hose on the bleeder filled with brake fluid, brakes were a lot simpler then but the basics are still the same.

[jim44646]

Not sure how abs module will handle reverse bleeding. Abs modules very touchy.
Awhile back I had a leaking break line. I tried splicing a piece in. Didn't have correct fitting on end of splice piece and used an adapter. Abs module didn't like it. Kept throwing codes

[JohnB]

I myself have never done the reserve bleed if I'm understanding it right. Meaning, apply vacuum at the master cylinder reservoir area and pull fluid from the brake cylinder/caliper bleeder port with a hose in of a can of brake fluid back through the system and into the master cylinder.

Whenever I compress the caliper pistons on disk brakes, I open the bleeder and purge that yucky looking fluid out into a dump container verses not opening the bleeder and letting it back up into the master cylinder. Was concerned contamination may make it back into the anti lock system. Concern with the reverse bleed if I understand it right, some of the piston oil contamination might sneak into the reverse bleed new oil going up into the system. I may have misunderstood the reverse bleed, just mentioning this.

Years ago before anti-lock brakes and on drum brakes, I do not recall the black stuff so much being created and we didn't bleed it out. Just compressed the pistons on the wheel cylinder and let it back up in the system. I have not worked on a hydraulic drum brake in about 20 years now +/- a few. I graduated to electric drum brake on camper! (a step backwards actually) I do not recall the older drum wheel cylinders getting the contaminants in the wheel cylinder like the disk brakes do. But I recall drum wheel cylinders leaking past the pistons, that was the mode of failure on most. Just look at the side of the tire and if there is fluid there, odds are high the wheel cylinder was leaking.

Now the switch to disk brakes, I have not seen many leaks by the pistons, but have seen more frozen calipers, most from the piston materials expanding and getting stuck. I have not seen thousands of calipers to know if the non leaking trend went away, but I have found on my own vehicle bound up calipers and more frequent, rusted brake pads that bind up in the calipers/bracket housing that stuck the pad from releasing and wearing faster than the side that moves. While the stainless clips on the ends of the pads help, I now make sure new pads have good clearance when installing or else, sooner than later, you have a hot brake from them not releasing. Never trust a new set of pads out of the box to have enough sliding clearance.

[jim44646]

The avantage of the vacuum bleeding with the kit I was talking about is that you can keep an eye on the fluid coming out of line. When it flows clean your know you have all the crud out.

As for the stainless breakshoe clips, I butter them up good with antiseize

[mainah]

Originally Posted by jim44646

Not sure how abs module will handle reverse bleeding. Abs modules very touchy.
Awhile back I had a leaking break line. I tried splicing a piece in. Didn't have correct fitting on end of splice piece and used an adapter. Abs module didn't like it. Kept throwing codes

I'm going out on a limb because I can't say this for fact, as long as the ABS system is not doing anything it's pretty much a non player once it senses a speed differential is when things start to happen.

[BenB]

Here is my input as a guy that studied automotive technology in college, works in the performance car industry and owns a fleet of vehicles in the rust belt. I have replaced rusted brakes lines on probably more than 10 different vehicles (I buy my brake fluid by the gallon) many of them with ABS and I haven't had an ABS resulting issue yet. I do know people who simply pushed the pistons back in for a pad changes and ended up with ABS codes. I have never reverse bleed any of the ones that I have done. While the ABS only activates in a braking situation all the lines and fluid run though it all the time. I would be worried that sending the fluid from a caliper back though the module would cause dirt and grime to get caught in the module an cause a problem. In general the dirty fluid is in the calipers unless the line rusts though, though at that point that fluid will come out when the line is replaced. When changing pads, I always crack the bleeder and press in the pistons letting the old fluid out instead of forcing it backwards. I know there is reverse bleeder systems out there but I personally wouldn't use one. There is plenty of other options to bleed, I have done several over the years.

Option 1: The old foot pump and open the bleeder, more easily done with 2 people, however I have done myself. Pump up the brakes and hold pressure, open the bleeder until it runs out, close bleeder. Repeat.

Option 2: Use a vacuum bleeder to draw the fluid though the bleeder screw. A simple hand vacuum pump setup makes pretty easy to do, no second person needed. You can see the fluid (and air) being pulled out of the system as it comes though the tube. Add brake fluid to the master cylinder as needed. Jim's pneumatic bleeder is the same concept it just uses the air pressure to create the vacuum, never have used one of these though.

Option 3: Use a power bleeder. This system basically uses a pressure bottle (like a weed sprayer) and connectors to the master cylinder lid and forces the new fluid though the system from the bottle. Pressurize the master cylinder and just go around an open the bleeders one at a time and let the fluid out. This works best with the exact adapter for the master cylinder lid. The universal adapters are a little bit of a pain to setup. The down side is at the end the master cylinder is full to the top and needs fluid removed until you get to the fill line. This is messy on the old rectangle cap master cylinders, when removing the bleeder adapter if the vehicle isn't perfectly level the fluid spills out over the edge everywhere.

[JohnB]

I can attest, BenB does has a fleet of vehicles! Seem he collects cars/trucks like I do campers. Well, so far I think he has out collected me 2.5 to 1

Good writeup

[JohnB]

After mainah threw out his truck budy working on Fords using stainless exhaust manifold studs, it started me thinking more on this topic. Here is the latest.

I have been researching switching from carbon steel to stainless hardware on the exhaust manifold studs. While some Ford owners have changed to stainless, I have not found any info yet on the reason the stainless will perform better. I did, however, find some useful information in bits and pieces to piece together a reason why stainless may perform better.

A little background, on my F350 3 valve V10 gasser, I changed the manifold studs on the LH side in late 2010 at 71K miles. I had an exhaust leak tick blowing by a loose stud on cylinder 5. When I removed the manifold, the stud on cylinder 5 fell off with the weight of the wrench indicting it was cracked. The stud just stuck to the manifold and had not fallen off yet.

I am now at 120K miles, and I have two studs that cracked and fell off with the weight of the wrench on them. One on LH cylinder 5, the other on RH cylinder 6. Cylinder 5, had 71K miles with first break and 49K miles on the second break. Cylinder 6 had 120K miles. There is a problem with the Ford carbon steel studs, yet they still call for them as a standard replacement unless the owner requests an upgrade. I looked at 2017, F350 with the 6.2 gasser parts call out, and Ford changed the studs from 8mm on mine to 10mm and stainless on the 6.2 gassers. H' mm, OK, they know something, bigger diameter, and different material.

Failure mode: Here are my current thoughts on how the carbon steel studs could be failing on the 6.8 V10 and most likely even on the 5.4 V8.

1. The head is aluminum; the stock OEM stud is carbon steel, I believe it may be grade 5 steel as I know it is not any stronger than that by the way it drills when removing broken studs and the torque they recommend. The manifold, I believe, is cast stainless. The cast stainless came from research into this, and I looked at mine on the gasket face, I agree this is not cast steel. The lack of rust at the exposed non-gasket face helps confirm SS. Yes, the outer surface is rust-colored, but that can come from all the carbon being beat into the steel from the exhaust. Stainless will rust given the right conditions.

2. I looked up the thermal expansion rates of carbon steel, stainless steel, and aluminum. Carbon steel ranges from 10.8 - 12.5 units pending alloy. Stainless is 16.0 units for grade 316 or 410 SS and 17.3 for 304 SS. The unit value I am showing is the amount of material will change in size in all directions for a given change in temperature. A material with a larger unit grows longer and faster than a material with a smaller unit. I kept all the decimal places out of the discussion to not confuse the issue. I would estimate Ford picked cast 304 stainless for the manifold. The point in this is, the stainless manifold will grow faster than the carbon steel stud by approx—50%. The aluminum head is water jacket cooled, and colder is, 12.8 to 13.1 units or approx—30% slower expansion rate in comparison to the stainless manifold.

3. When the manifold heats up, it gets thicker at the stud hole location from the expansion. The manifold is expanding faster and more distance (thickness and length) then the stud, which increases the pull force (stress) in the stud over its initial torque setting from the thermal expansion difference. The added thermal stud stress over the many heat and cool cycles an engine sees can add fatigue close to and eventually over the yield limit of the stud. Once you reach the yield limit of a material, it starts to stretch and never comes back to the original size. Continued over yield conditions in repetition will cause the stud to fail.

4. The manifold itself grows thermally in all directions. The head is growing at a different rate (slower) than the manifold due to temperature and material. The stud nut grips the manifold surface even tighter than initially torqued due no 3 above. When the manifold grows axially front to back, this pulls the stud gripping the manifold on an angle as the engine head is not expanding at the same rate as the manifold. The head is slower to expand, the manifold faster. Either the nut slips, or the stud just has to handle the added bending stress. Ford did put oversize holes in the 3 valve engine manifold; I see this can help the stud bending issue if the nut can slide. The older 2 valve V10's I'm not sure if they have large holes in the manifold.

The combination of no. 3 and no 4 above will over time fail the 8mm carbon steel stud. Since all studs do not fail instantly, the original stud setup is on the edge of working.

I contacted my Ford dealer this week who offers OEM parts wholesale, and they confirmed what I found, stainless studs PN W703902-S403, with stainless nut PN W702586-S437 and washer, W715793-S300 would work on my V10 as an upgrade. But I have to use the flat washer to make this work correctly. The stud and nut PN I found in internet search, the washer I picked up from a Ford parts website used in that combo, and my dealer confirmed it is needed.

Why could stainless work better? By matching the material of the stud and the nut to the manifold material, the thermal expansion rates will be closer together, and the result is less pull stress in the stud. The adding of the flat washer under the nut could help the nut slide easier against the manifold, thus lowering some of the bending stress when the manifold grows axially. The combination of the two reductions helps give longer life for stainless. The only missing piece left is strength. Stainless in grade 304 or even 316 is not very strong unless there is specialty strain hardening done to it and is not common. It is close to a grade 2 carbon steel bolt in the standard material state. If Ford was using grade 5 studs, the stainless would be weaker in strength but better matched in thermal expansion. There are 10 studs per manifold, so the load is spread out across all 10 studs enough that possibly the lower strength of stainless could be acceptable.

Any added thoughts or wrong conclusions I have drawn?

Anyone convert to stainless exhaust studs and break them? If so, what grade stainless were you using and how many miles before they broke?

The dealer will refund my carbon steel studs and nuts if I buy the stainless. There is an upcharge in cost for stainless, but in the big picture, it is small versus changing broken carbon steel studs.

Thanks for any input.

John

[jim44646]

[QUOTE=BenB;151767]



Option 2: Use a vacuum bleeder to draw the fluid though the bleeder screw. A simple hand vacuum pump setup makes pretty easy to do, no second person needed. You can see the fluid (and air) being pulled out of the system as it comes though the tube. Add brake fluid to the master cylinder as needed. Jim's pneumatic bleeder is the same concept it just uses the air pressure to create the vacuum, never have used one of these though.




The main advantage of the pneumatic bleeding is when dealing with new or empty break lines. There is allot of air to evacuate. After attaching vacuum hose to bleeder pull the trigger and just wait for fluid to start flowing. With it still attached you can check your main fluid level

[mainah]

My guess if you have any thing in your brake system other than brake fluid you all ready have a problem!

[jim44646]

Originally Posted by mainah

My guess if you have any thing in your brake system other than brake fluid you all ready have a problem!

I'm talking complete new line replacement. Full of air

[mainah]

I understand what you are saying But forcing fluid into a master cylinder and finding a lot of crud is a good indication something is wrong there should be nothing but brake fluid. Over the past decade or so everything brakes has changed dramatically both in fluid chemistry and equipment. Shoot when brake fluid was hydrosoptic they more often than not had water in it!