Maintaining an older camper tow vehicle (pic heavy)

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by mainah

Just reading this thread again, John Ford had issues with the exhaust manifolds and I believe the replacements had larger holes for the studs I think they discovered there was not enough room for expansion and it was breaking studs. I also think the replacement studs were SS.

Thanks mainah,

The timing of your response is good. I'm in the frame coating stage right now, and in the hopeful near future I will be getting back onto the engine. Both my exhaust manifolds are off right now.

And yes, I 110% agree Ford has an issue with manifold studs in this era of truck. Do you have any year specifics on your info and what vehicle?

In the 2005 model year, Ford redesigned the V10 that went into the Super Duty trucks to what they call the 3 valve V10. The 2005 Excursion still had the older 2 valve V10. The prior years (2004 & older) 2 valve V10's had a rash of broken manifold studs, the manifolds themselves where different. My vintage 2005 V10 has different manifolds and I know the holes are very big around the studs themselves. But, I have had broken studs issues still.

In Dec 2011 I had an exhaust leak, tick tick and pulled the manifold. I had to deal with bound up studs back then too. See here for more info. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...lem-12820.html There is a link to the Ford truck forum there with more pics etc on it too.

At that time, I put Ford studs back on fearful of an aftermarket stud that may not hold up. The Ford studs are coated with something, but not stainless. They are tiny, only 8mm diameter.

Now, 2020, I took that same left manifold back off (done in 2011) and one stud (9 years old) cracked off with the weight of the wrench on it.

And I had a cracked stud do the same thing on the right side, but that was an original stud, 15 years old.

Both of these cracked studs on mine are on the ends of the manifold. Not sure that is a pattern, but I can see it being one. They have aluminum heads, small 8mm carbon steel studs and a cast iron manifold. The head is growing in all directions at a thermal rate different than the manifold. And these tiny carbon steel studs hold of both of them together. The ends of the manifold could have the highest deflection change from thermal growth which may be why the end cylinder studs have more issue. It's a thought, maybe not fact.

I may have the larger holes in the manifold fix to help with thermal expansion you found. Big hole with little stud allows room for the difference in head and manifold expansion.

As to the stud material, I already ordered Ford OEM studs from a wholesale Ford dealer in Cincinnati. All the parts I'm buying for this truck has an obsolete part system in the software that brings up the latest Ford recommended part. And a lot of them have been replaced with upgraded parts. For now, Ford it still saying these carbon steel coated studs are the right ones. The sames ones that I had 1 cracked in 9 years ago that I put in.

At this point, I'm sure these studs will not be a long term fix. The best I can guess is they will make it 9 years, and hopefully by then I have a different truck.

If you have a year reference or material spec on the stainless you heard, would be good to know. Please pass on.

Having worked a lot with stainless bolts in my job before retiring, the ordinary stainless you buy in the hardware store is very weak in strength. Comparable to a grade 2 carbon steel bolt. We had to special order harder stainless bolts to get close a grade 5 carbon bolt. $50 a bolt for a 1/2" x 6" long bolt. And to get close to grade 8 strength in stainless, was big bucks.

The Ford OEM studs I believe are grade 5 strength carbon steel. And there is a difference in the thermal expansion rates of stainless and carbon steel when you deal with a fatigue situation. I would have to look up the difference, but I know the two are not the same and have to accounted for in fatigue design.

An unknown is, did the aftermarket sell stainless studs for thermal properties or for corrosion resistance? My studs have not per say had a corrosion issue. The nuts, for sure have but they touch a carbon steel manifold to get a corrosion reaction started. The stud touches aluminium head and the nut.

Curious to see what you have have stumbled onto.

Thanks for passing along

John

[mainah]

I would check with Ford parts dept. they seem to be more on top of the issue. I'll check around with my Ford guys I have one that is in the process of repairing an 05 with manifold issues.

[mainah]

Well as luck would have it shortly after my post my friend happened to call yes on the SS studs and yes on stainless nuts. So if your manifolds are ok and you can drill them a bit strong on 3/8 that is the answer. The replacements are all ready larger.

[JohnB]

Wow, by chance did he use Ford OEM parts? If so, any chance of a Ford part number (stud and nut)?

Thanks

John

[JohnB]

Well, I did a little digging. The 2010 was the last year the Super Duty got the V10 gasser. In 2011 they changed to the 6.2 V8 gas engine.

A 2010 F350 with the V10 uses the same carbon 8mm studs I bought as a replacement part. Ford PN W707747-S431

Looking up a 2017 F350 with the 6.2 V8, (I just picked that out of the air, being new enough) they now have 10mm stainless studs and nuts. 10 mm is 0.393" or 0.019" bigger then 3/8".

Seems Ford switched to stainless on the 6.2 V8 as standard. Ford must've learned something!

Digging some more, I "think" I found 8mm stainless Ford studs that fit the V10 I have. Uses stainless nut and washer it appears. These stainless studs sell wholesale at $11.00 ea, plus $7.50 for the nut, and $7.50 for the washer or $26 each complete stainless stud. Plus tax and shipping. There are 20 of them on my truck. Man, that is insane on the cost. I would have to call my wholesale Ford dealer and see if they can cut a break on all 20 of them if that is the route to go.

Tapping the block to jump up to 10mm is not small task with the engine in the truck. And the manifold may have some issues with enough material going that large. But I agree, 10mm is a lot better then these little 8mm ones. That might be a bridge too far to cross at this point.

Need to do some more research on this if spending the bucks for $8mm stainless is worth it. If I can get a solid 9 more years out of the carbon steel ones I have now, that is an option too. Decisions, decisions.

[mainah]

My buddy has a "fleet" of Fords he actually just bought an 05 with some thing like 71K for $500 lots of rust but he is the master of fixing rusty old stuff. Yep it has broken studs I also seem to think he had issues with his V10 too. I'm leaning towards stretching of the bolts not so much expansion shearing them that would explain the need for larger holes. In the few he has done I don't believe he went to a larger stud size. We have a large nut and bolt co in Maine (kljack.com) something like that maybe a better source than Ford.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by mainah

My buddy has a "fleet" of Fords he actually just bought an 05 with some thing like 71K for $500 lots of rust but he is the master of fixing rusty old stuff. Yep it has broken studs I also seem to think he had issues with his V10 too. I'm leaning towards stretching of the bolts not so much expansion shearing them that would explain the need for larger holes. In the few he has done I don't believe he went to a larger stud size. We have a large nut and bolt co in Maine (kljack.com) something like that maybe a better source than Ford.

The Ford 5.4 V8 is also a modular motor like the V10 and they made a lot of 5.4 V8's. They also have the stud issue like the V10's of my era until they changed the system. Not sure if the 10mm stainless has cured the issue.

I agree with you, I do think the studs snap due to stretching versus shear. While I only have a small sample of cracked studs, they all cracked at the head just as the head threads stopped engaging the stud. That appears to be the weak spot. I do believe this is a thermal expansion issue, the manifold which has no water jacket to cool it, grows in thickness and applies stretching force to the stud. That repetitive fatigue aggravated by some front to back bending by axial thermal growth differences between the head and the manifold, just seems to start a crack in the crest of the stud thread.

I need to do some more digging into the stainless studs before I go that route. This much I can say, it is a lot easier to drill out broken carbon steel stud then a stainless one. The stainless work hardens. I have preconceived notions that taking 8mm stainless nuts off may be a job if they are left on for a long time. While the stuff may survive in operation longer, not sure it may survive coming apart. 300 series stainless really likes to gall.

Thanks for passing this along. Now I have something more to search out and contemplate upgrading.

[JohnB]

Here is a truck progress update. It’s been a while, and other life things needed to get done, so the progress is slow, but moving forward.

At the moment, all the parts I knew to order, are here, including an entire timing chain and valve rocker rebuild. I am still investigating what to do about going to stainless exhaust manifold studs. I have new Ford carbon steel studs already. I’m sure there will be “something” yet to get on the parts scene the more I get into opening up the engine.

The main progress has been dealing with the frame rust, which is a project all by itself. First comes scraping off any loose rust, which is a dirty (literally dirty) job. Rust, dirt, dust all become air born and float onto anything in the barn. To help curb some of the dust, I put plastic sheathing over shelves, tool boxes, and the truck cab itself helps. A picture of the truck prepped to start into the de-rusting process.


Some pics of the rust, peeling coating that came with the truck and trapped dirt. This is the starting point.


Close up




Close up


The goal is to get all the loose rust and dirt off the areas that will be rust treated.

The tools used were putty knives, hand wire brushes, 4 1/2” grinder with a wire wheel, and a pneumatic descaler, also known as a needle gun.

Here is the needle gun for those who have not seen one. It has high speed impacting needles to beat any loose rust off. The needle gun works well, eats a lot of compressed, and is load. You have to have hearing protection using one of these and safety glasses and a full face shield when working overhead.


A picture of what the floor looks like after 20 minutes of work. You are constantly sweeping it up, not to have to roll around in it. When the de-rusting job was over, I had at least 30lb of dirt, and rust was in the trash. And I’m sure there is 5 lb. all over everything else in the barn.


When you get all done and checked it three times for missing knucks and crannies, it looks like this.








After looking at the rear brakes closer, ah yup, the rust on the rear dust shields is bad. These can be an issue as when rotted out, the parking brake no longer works right, and crud gets up in the brake area. After trying to clean them in place, I decided they needed to come off, or they would still rot out in the center. At this point, why not, it’s only two more axle seals needed.




Then you start the 3 step process for the KBS Rust Seal coating system. Here is their web site https://www.kbs-coatings.com/ You start with degreasing using KBS Klean. A concentrated cleaner you mix with water as a degreaser. Brush or spray it on, let it soak 5 to 10 minutes depending on how dirty it is, scrub the metal with a brush, repeat as needed, and then rinse with clean water.





And you just keep going until the entire bottom of the truck frame is done. At this point, I only did the truck bed area.

The dust shields degreased and cleaned up


After the frame dries, you start an acid etch using phosphoric acid call KBS Rustblast. You use the Rust Blast straight out of the bottle, no dilution. I found brushing it on worked best. You need to wear a respirator with this for the fumes, safety glasses, full face shield for flying drips, and chemical rated gloves. The etching prepares the metal as a primer and leaves a zinc phosphate film.

Start with a degreased dry frame and brush it on. I have tubs under what I’m working on to collect the drips.


You need to keep the Rust Blast wet and not allowed to dry for one hour on heavy rust. Less time on light rust.


After the time has elapsed, you rinse the treated area with water to stop the etching action and let it dry overnight. You can see the light white powder that shows up from the zinc phosphate coating. All areas do not need to be white, and they still have the coating formed.






Then to the final process, coating the frame with KBS RustSeal, which is a urethane moisture cure coating. You need to apply two coats and apply the second coat after the first is cured enough not to leave a fingerprint, but before it fully cures. There are other ways to use a second coat after full cure, but it means ruffing up the surface, which is an enormous task on a truck frame. I went with the partial cure fingerprint method. It can take several hours between coats. Apply the first, early in the morning, then midafternoon, apply the second.

I brushed the coating on, and the first coat takes a good deal of time. You have to do this in stages as you cannot do the entire frame in one day with the drying time in-between. It took me three days to complete the truck bed area or half the truck frame.

Here is a pic of the end of day 2. I missed the pic on day 1, but it was just the rear axle and some of the frames at the springs area.


The dust shields and the fuel tank shield. There are many separate parts to treat as well.




And as of today, (3rd day) the last of the truck bed area.






There was a lot of learning about how this coating works. I called KBS 3 times over the treatment process. Here are some pointers/tips I learned.

- The RustSeal coating is a moisture cure coating. It needs moisture in the air to cure.
- Relative humidity of 40 to 44% is very low and extends curing time many times over. 6 to 7 hours can occur at 65F.
- By changing the barn relative humidity of 58 to 62% curing times can be 2 to 3 hours at 60 - 65F. Just open the doors and let some humidity come in.
- Temperature flashes off the solvents, moisture cures the coating.
- Colder temperature allows gas bubbles to fizz slower and cure in the coating as does thicker applied coating. The tiny bubbles do not affect coating performance, and it is only cosmetic. KBS stresses multiple thin coats.
- You can thin the RustSeal with their brand thinner or use Xylene between 5 to 10% to make the rust seal flow thinner at 60 to 65F. I did try the 5% thinning, and it works better at 65F.

All for now, now to degrease, etch and coat the other half of the truck frame, the cab area.

Thanks for looking.

John

[mainah]

John that's not repair that's restoration! Just be glad you don't live in the northeast. I'm a FF junky I coat every thing backing plates, spare rim if I can see it it get coated if there is the slightest sign of rust sandblast and repaint then FF. Granted it's only 9 years old but at least Toyota maned up and replaced frames mine is still black but that's because I want it to out last my driving years!

[jim44646]

Only problem with all that work if you get into an accident. Insurance will still look at your truck as an old truck with allot of miles.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by mainah

John that's not repair that's restoration!

Thanks. These kind of projects seem to always have an expanding to do list... If you don't want to know, don't go looking.

The net results are looking encouraging. Still much to go. Right now I'm under the cab working overhead on the frame up to the engine support area. That overhead reach makes it even more, work. But, it is cleaned, and acid prepared as of today. The coating will start soon up to the engine area. Then back into more cleaning before coating will start. There is an entire front axle, steering, truck frame, loose parts and other things yet to go. But when done, it will be all good.

On your fluid film treatment, I have heard that needs to be checked annually. Is that just a touch up, or a complete redo?

There are some areas buried that the rustseal coating process will just not work as you cannot get to it. So you look towards other spray in methods. KBS makes a product possible similar to the fluid film. They call it cavity coater. https://www.kbs-coatings.com/Cavity-Coater.html

Inside rocker panels, places under the cab that are not accessible and under the engine saddle frame, inside he bed rails needs it. While it says it lasts a long time, it does not define what long is. Annual checks will be ongoing to make sure all is well.

Thanks

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jim44646

Only problem with all that work if you get into an accident. Insurance will still look at your truck as an old truck with allot of miles.

And yes, unfortunately with vehicles being a depreciating asset, a total loss does not replace the value you have. It is a risk restoring older vehicles. Each of us needs to weigh the pros and cons for your individual situation. In this case, only the new parts cost may make it a little harder to break even on if the accident happened real soon after getting the truck back on the road. I would call it low odds of happening, but one can never tell. The labor, well I just I work real cheap! Never going to get that back, but it all depends on how we look at it.

I looked at this as, I have the time, the shop, the tools and the want to get it done. Replacing the ability of this truck with a new one, is big bucks and will come someday, just not today. With labor cost at $0.00 out of pocket (remember I work cheap), the out of pockets costs for the parts added without shop mark up, is the risk difference to gain high confidence I will have fewer issues for the next 100,000 miles. Our goal is to make longer trips with the camper in the hopefully near future, and you need a reliable truck to make that happen.

Plus, I'm not bored with nothing to do Although I don't know if I want to scrape rust on another truck frame anytime soon. I'll do camper frames anyday compared to a full sized truck again.

[jim44646]

I understand. Your young enough to make those long trips. I on the other hand wish I would have got back into camping sooner and traveled more. At this time in life I feel long hauls are out of the question.

[mainah]

Well a project like that does keep you off the streets and out of trouble. I do the truck in the fall with FF I generally pressure wash it more than anything else to get the dirt off. I do find it takes quite a bit of blasting to actually wash the FF off. The welds seem to rust more than anything else so it's either a wire brush or sand blaster and some new paint because I'm picky and like the looks of a black frame! You seem to be a Ford person so it pays to look at others Fords and see just where they rust as I do with Toyotas then you know where to concentrate. Somewhere in the timeline of the late Fords that they stuck the engine under the cab just to make it really had to work on things and the result was cab removal after awhile they made it much easier to remove the cab had something to do with the steering shaft I think. I gather it really isn't a super hard job to lift the cab and in the end it made repairs a lot easier. I'm sure it had more to do with warranty repairs than to help the little guy that maybe an option for you.

[jim44646]

I know when they do when a head job on a 6.6l duramax they lift the cab.

[JohnB]

Lifting the cab, h'mm. Idea!

I had that wild thought about a month ago. Never thought to act on it though. I already have 4 of the 8 cab mounts off as the bottoms rotted out. I will have to look and see what is involved tomorrow in raising the cab about 1 foot on blocks to expose the top of the frame and other areas.

The steering shaft, yeh that might be an issue. Corrosion was in that area.

Perfect time to bring this up. I'm at the crossroads tonight of, yeh I can raise the cab in a few hours or, leave it and start the coating process. I cleaned up another 5 lb of dirt and rust under the front end area, the engine apron and took the brakes off to get behind them. That engine apron mount is a bugger with the steering linkage there. Can't get in there very easy.

I also found I still have some wiggle in the steering box. This is a Ford thing. Super Duty's and Excursions of this era have it. Excess gear wear and the truck wants to wander, your fighting it all the time. I have adjusted the backlash screw twice already in the past and it greatly helped, but always had the wheels on the ground when doing it. Now with no tires on, I can yank the wheel hubs and feel and see exactly where the play is. It's all in the steering box. I will try and adjust some more to reduce it further when I can see it.

A Ford guy, well yes and no. It has been Ford and GM's over the years on trucks. They are all good when they run.... This is my 3rd Ford truck, 1980 F100 (new), 1975 F350 stake body dually on the farm, and now this 2005 F350. I have had several GM's in between them. And in 2007 when I bought this 05 F350, if GM offered a short bed crew cab in a 1 ton SRW truck, I would of had that. But they only offered long beds back then. It would not fit in my prior garage.

Good to know the FF does not wash off easy. Welds rusting first, yes the heat affected zone will usually always rust first.

[jim44646]

When I put the stainless steel break lines on I had to raise my cab on my gmc. While it was up I changed the cab mounts mine were flat. I don't of Ford has this feature but on my gmc I can remove 2 bolts and my hood will stand up 90° into what they call service position.

[JohnB]

The cab lift is in process. I him'ed and hawed, do I, don't I, looked 2 more times, did some web research and found a good U tube on lifting Super duty's cabs to do engine jobs I think.

[jim44646]

Good job, good luck.
Might as well put in stainless brake lines while you at it.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by jim44646

Good job, good luck.
Might as well put in stainless brake lines while you at it.

Thanks,

Actually Ford did a good job on the fuel lines (stainless lines on the hard pipe, including the fuel pump housing). The brake lines are coated lines. They are in excellent condition on the hard lines. The flex lines at the ends, I already replaced them when I did the last brake job. Out of all this rust and rot, the fuel lines and the brake lines are good.