Looking for towing info for mountain passes out west

[Photokit]

Hello folks, I'm brand new to this forum and towing my travel trailer, 1995 Sunline 18 footer, can't wait for summer fun.

I read your post on towing and weights and wonder if the following information is sufficient for you to create a towing "profile" for me.

I would like to tow the TT with my Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD 8cl.

Thanks for your feedback.


2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee, V8-4.7ltr, 4x4, all time 4Wd and manual 4wd low, wheel base 106". 2500 front GAWR, 2950 rear GAWR

Payload: 380 lbs of driver and passenger,
Receiver and Tires: Brand new Toyo Open Country, factory installed trailer hitch. But I will need to get the VIN to see if there is a "tow package" too.
TT size and floor plan: Sunline T-1850

Where do you camp: I plan to camp in the mountains of colorado, driving over 2 mountain passes above 10,300 feet to get to a "base camp" leave the trailer in a few different National Forest locations for 2 weeks at a time and driving from my home in Durango, Colorado to go up high and camp and hike. I will need to bring water for the first few nights, then I can drive home and fill up my water containers and bring them to the tt.

The second most frequent place I will camp is in Southern Utah, for long weekends. I'd also like to take the tt to Zion National Park in the Fall of 2012. Hook ups and water available so I won't need to travel with the water.
TT interactions with the TV: I'd say the heaviest equipment in the car or in the trailer in addition to the water is my camera gear, Weighing about 40 lbs for the cameras and 12 lbs for the tripods. I do have a sea kayak but will wait to add it to the gear until i have some towing experience under my belt.

[JohnB]

Hi Photokit,

First Welcome to Sunline Owners Club and congrats on your new coach!

A quick question on your truck, look in the manual and look for the GCWR. Gross Combined Weight Rating. That will save me time digging on line for a owners manual to try and find it. It is the rating the engine, transmission and rear axle can tow within the rating of the truck.

I'll be back soon to do some figuring in the next day or so. We have some folks here towing with a Grand Cherokee however on the east coast.

The 10,000 foot elevation we will have to take into account for sure. On a gas engine at those elevations the V8 will feel like a V6 due to the lose of being able to jam enough air into the engine. The air is thinner up there.... The diesel guys with a turbo or super charger can get away with this better.

Oh and do you have a weight distribution hitch? If so what kind and what size WD bars.

Again, welcome.

John

[Janalee]

Hi Photokit..At the risk of my male counterparts here, I will tell you in 2001 and 2003 I towed a 22 ft. Sunny all thru those mountains twice, going from Pa. to Vegas and Yellowstone, Zion, etc. and back,once towing with an older Ford Crown Victoria,8 cyl., no really added equipment but a trans cooler, and once with a '95 Chevy conversion van(added a larger radiator on this one). I kept a careful eye on my temps and didn't use AC on the climbs. Only had one heat problem with the Vic and that was the climb from Phoenix to Payson. As for your water,be aware it is very hard to find!! We had to go to a state park in Sedona to dip in the cold mountain stream to bathe! State and Nat'l parks had NO hookups. Zion had electric hkups only for the one handicapped site and there was NO SHOWER there either.They did have water and dump available. This is just my two cents worth but-- I have always towed "on the margin" --and after 13 travel trailers and 6 mohos, I can say I have had no serious technical problems with mountain issues....Remember,those 10,000 ft. mountains are not 10,000 ft climbs--you start at a higher altitude to begin with!

[Photokit]

Hi John,

The sticker on my door doesn't list the GCWR but it does list the GVWR at 5500 lbs.

[Photokit]

How can I tell if I have a weight distribution hitch
?

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Photokit

Hi John,

The sticker on my door doesn't list the GCWR but it does list the GVWR at 5500 lbs.

Hi Kit,

Sorry I did not explain better. The GCWR will not be on the driver door, they are listed most times in the "Vehicle Owners Manual".

I tried to find a 2003 on line and the Jeep site only starts at 2004.
My Jeep: Jeep Owners Service Manuals - 4x4 SUVs, Sports Utility Vehicles, Off Road

If you follow that link and put in 2004 Grande Cherokee and go to page 230 you will find a chart that looks like this one. Look and see in your 2003 manual is this chart the same?



A 2004 with a 4.7 V8 and a 3.73 rear axle ratio and 4 x 4 is listed as a GCWR of 10,500#

It also lists a max tongue weight of 750#. In this case of the Jeep that is highly likely driven by the rear axle ratings. We need to keep an eye on this.

There is also a note that the Class III and Class IV needs to have a hi temp power steering pumps with high temp seals. See if yours has that note and any idea if your has it?

Does yours have the towing package?

The goal in this is you learn and understand as you look up these things. It will take a little more time at 1st, then get a whole lot easier.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Photokit

TT interactions with the TV: I'd say the heaviest equipment in the car or in the trailer in addition to the water is my camera gear, Weighing about 40 lbs for the cameras and 12 lbs for the tripods. I do have a sea kayak but will wait to add it to the gear until i have some towing experience under my belt.

Hi Kit,

Just asking, are you "only" adding fresh water and 52# of camera gear to the T1850 camper?

Meaning nothing else? No camping gear, bed linens, pots, pans, towels, food in the fridge, aka camping stuff?

I use to be a back packing fanatic and 50# was all I ever had, so maybe your doing it in a camper... My camping stuff now is, well, many times that...

It may be, I'm just asking trying to get a handle on camping gear in the camper.

I looked up the 1995 T1850 from our brochures. (see the files tabs up top) Neat little camper. It is similar to the popular T1950. The stock T1850 with no LP gas in the tanks or battery has a GVW of 2,905#, a dry tongue weight of 305# and a GVWR of 5,000#

So that is a tandem axle camper. The GVW and dry tongue listed above is the empty trailer as it left Sunline. No camping gear. By the ratings of the camper you can add up to 2,095 of camping gear which is a bunch for a little camper. Sunline was generous that way. Some brand new light weight 30 foot campers cannot even take on 2,000# before reaching the limits.

The camper is 18' 11" long and a 8 foot wide model.

The fresh water system 24 gallons capacity. That means the camper filled with water, (the HW tank, the pipes and the fresh supply tank. ) 24 gallons of water weighs approx 200#

Let me know what the camping gear is. Most folks in that size camper may add 400 to 500# of stuff and it does not look like much but all adds up.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Photokit

How can I tell if I have a weight distribution hitch
?

Hi Kit,

A weight distributing hitch , or what we call a WD hitch, is used on trailers with heavier tongue weights to help shift weight off the rear axle of the truck, some to the truck front axle, some to the trailer axles.

A weight carrying hitch, is just towing by the ball behind the truck on a hitch bar. All the hitch weight presses down on the ball, the truck rear axle squats (bears all the weight) and the front axle rises. These are used on lighter weight trailers.

The WD hitch has spring bars on the side and used with a WD receiver on the truck to help get some weight off the rear axle and most important to put some weight back on the front axle that was lost by towing on the ball. This makes for a much more stable towing trailers with higher tongue weights.

This post has a lot of pics of different brands of WD hitches. Go 2 replies down.
.http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...l-10868-2.html

You receiver also has 2 ratings on it. A weight carrying rating and a weight distributing rating. The WD rating is higher but it needs the WD hitch to allow it's use. I have run into Jeep receivers before and they "might" be rated in the 300 to 350# range for weight carrying. Anything above that would need a WD hitch.

See if you can find a sticker on the receiver.

It may look like this. This is off of my truck as the stock receiver and the weights are a lot higher then your, but you can get the picture of what the sticker looks like.

[Photokit]

Thanks so much john for all this information. i will get more accurate information about how much weight i will add to the trailer for camping, it came equipped with alot of stuff like kitchen gear and bedding and pots and pans and spare fuses and spare tire and i will definitely be adding some art supplies, and clothing and bedding too so i'll get back to you with more information about weight. And i'll look up the info like GCWR from owners manual. Stand by one.

[Photokit]

i don't fully understand what a complete towing package is, i typed in the VIN to a site and didn't get much information about how it left the factory. i know it has a trailer hitch and it doesn't look like after market.

There is also a note that the Class III and Class IV needs to have a hi temp power steering pumps with high temp seals. See if yours has that note and any idea if your has it? i will ask my mechanic about these pumps and seals.

[Sunline Fan]

Welcome!

[Photokit]

I haven't submitted VIN yet. Will get the paperwork this coming weekend.

[Photokit]

Hi all, John thanks for your quick responses. Yes, the trailer towing info in my 2003 owners manual is the same as the one you posted yesterday, the chart for minimum requirements is the same as the graphic.

The manual suggest the tranny fluid gets changed at 12k intervals in hilly terrain and to use premium gas. And I see the note for special power steering pumps and gears for Class II and Class IV towing.

[JohnB]

Hi Kit,

I'm out of time tonight but will try and get something up on Thursday or Sunday. We are going camping this weekend and no Inet.

I will just estimate 500# of camping gear above the base dry weight of the camper as a starting point. It is not that hard to get up there. Now I see why you where not going to add much...LOL It came with the camper.... The prior owner added it.

This will get you in the ball park. I'm more trying to help you understand how to do this then an exact number. To get excact number you need to go to a truck scale, weight the truck and weigh the camper. And some day you should do that to check and see where you are at.

I can get you in the ball park on where you stand and which area has a good amount of reserve capacity and which one to be on the look out for.

Be back soon.

John

[Photokit]

Thanks so much for your help. I see how funny it was for me to not add the things that are already in the camper. I am calling my insurance agent today and looking into both the addition of towing on my auto insurance and getting the replacement value for the TT>

[JohnB]

Hi Kit,

While I am working up numbers, here is a U tube video on Weight Distribution hitches. I finally found it. This is the Reese brand, a good brand, and they did the video on them. They even have a Sunline in the video. There are other good brands out there too.

The 1st 8 minutes is on trailers, the last 2 minutes is on 5th wheel hitches which you do not have.

Reese Weight Distribution & Sway Control Systems demonstration from KEYSTONERVSUPERCENTER.COM - YouTube

My oppinion is you will need a WD hitch and sway control for stable towing for the long haul. You may overload your receiver if you do not use one.

How did you get the camper home? Did some one with a larger truck bring it for you?

More when I get back after the weekend.

John

Edit 7-20-12: Added sway control statement

[JohnB]

Kit,

I added a clarifier statement in blue above I missed. Anti sway controls for the trailer hitch is also a very important part of stable towing. Your shorter wheel base truck, lighter suspension, lighter tires and the size of the camper really need it for when bad tings come at us when we are towing a trailer. Like high winds, semis passing, dropping off the pavement suddenly.

Here is one type of WD hitch with the anti-sway control built in that will size up well with your camper. It can also be upgraded to a larger sizes if in the future you buy a bigger camper. This is the company Reese

This site has free freight on this Reese SC hitch

http://www.etrailer.com/Weight-Distribution/Reese/RP66151.html

Here is another good brand which combined both WD and anti-sway, however it is size dependant and to upgrade a size you need to re-buy most of the hitch if you get a bigger camper.
http://equalizerhitch.com/

Here is a place in Ohio that sells them. The freight may be extra. There may be dealers in your area as well
6K Equalizer Adj Hitch - RVWholesalers.com RV Parts and Accessories

There is also the basic friction sway control bar that is added to a WD hitch

Here is a standard WD hitch. This WD hitch is fully upgradeable to a trailer of my size.
http://www.etrailer.com/Weight-Distribution/Reese/RP66021.html

And here is the anti sway bar
http://www.etrailer.com/p-RP26660.html

There are a few other things that may be added to each of them the hitches above to make a complete WD hitch, some need a tow ball and then the added WD shank. Some combine them. I’m just throwing out a “few” of the many WD hitches out there so you can read up on them. Other names like, EAZ lift, Husky, Blue Ox etc to name a few more are also good WD hitches. I have not really found a bad one, just some better than others pending ones need. The cost is pretty competitive on all of the brands however shopping around can save some money. After researching you can get the one with the best benefits and options that fit your needs while actually fitting your camper right as a reasonable cost. Before you actually buy one, doing some research, asking questions, pictures of your camper tongue and understanding if that brand and that model works best for you would be a good thing to do.

Your in the situation where you do not have the hitch yet and can help sort through which fits your application the best. It may only be the difference of $50 to $100 in price however one brand/model may fit and work better in your situation. There is not 1 size fits every camper and situation even though the hitch manufactures advertise them that way. The good news your camper is not one of the really unique ones folks have large issues they run into with trying to get them to fit on the camper right.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Hi Kit,

Getting back to you. Here is what I have found. These are “estimates” only. It helps show you what and how I came up with these numbers. The ideal way to do this is to spend $7 to $10 at a truck scale and weigh both the front and rear axle of your truck with both passengers in the Jeep plus a full tank of gas. If I had those 2 numbers I could dial this right in. At this point I believe I’m in the ball park, just do not know what base we are on….

Here is what we know/estimated. This is a little long and if we were closer I would come over and help point this out to you. I just typed it out so you can see where this is coming from

I used these 3 sites to get this curb weight info. I cannot find this on an official Jeep/Chrysler site so there is some error I’m sure but you’re in the ball park. And I do not know what version you have or options in the Jeep.

The Overland version. States curb weight at 4,300#
2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4dr SUV 4.7L V8 4x4 5-speed Automatic Features and Specs

The Laredo version. States curb weight at 3,989#
2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee Specifications

The Limited. States curb weight at 4,072# And most important the % front and rear axle weight split with 55% front and 45% rear. Or 2,240# front axle and 1,832# rear axle.
Specifications - 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4WD - Yahoo! Autos

Options in a SUV are very nice, I have had several SUV’s and many where loaded with the options. Most can be 100 to 150# more than base curb weight. I’m am going to pic the Limited version as a place to start, it is middle of the road in the weights along with 125# of added options. This gives us front axle weight 2,302# and a rear axle weight of 1,895# or a GVW of 4,197# with full gas, options and no cargo (passengers). I split the options weight equal front and rear axle, in reality they may be a little different.

TV Cargo: You stated 380# of passengers and must have things. I’ll stick with the 55% front axle (+ 209#) and 45% (171#) rear axle on that weight adder of the cargo.

Here are the truck specs. Let’s look at what the truck can hold up weight wise with passengers on board

GAWR-Front: 2,500# Using 2,302# + 209# cargo = 2,511# If these are correct weights we are 11# above GAWR-FRT. The options may be less however we are close to the front axle rating to start with.

GAWR-Rear: 2,950# Using 1,895# + 171# Passengers + 65# WD hitch cargo = 2,131# If these are correct weights we are 819# below GAWR-Rear. There is capacity to hold a TT tongue. Need to keep in mind the 750# max tongue weight rating Jeep put on the receiver.

GVWR: 5,500# Using the 2,511# frt axle + 2,131# rear axle = 4,642# GVW or 858# before we reach the GVWR limit.

So far it looks like you can hold up the tongue weight of a light camper as long as we use a WD hitch and adjust it properly and keep an eye on the trailer weights.

Now let’s look at the camper. Again here the scales tell all but let’s start with some close estimates.

A 1995 T1850 from our brochures. (see the files tabs up top with no LP gas in the tanks or battery has a GVW of 2,905#, a dry tongue weight of 385# and a GVWR of 5,000#. We will add 500# which includes the LP gas in the tanks, the battery and camping gear in side. This comes out to be 2,905# dry wgt + 500# TT cargo = 3,405# and no fresh water. I would estimate the loaded tongue weight to be around 500#, again no fresh water.

The camper dry from Sunline with a 385# dry tongue on dry 2,905# GVW is 13.3% dry tongue weight which is good for stable towing. At a 500# loaded tongue and loaded 3,405# GVW 14.7% loaded tongue and that is even better for stable towing.

I do not know where the fresh water tank is on your camper. That is 200# more weight when filled and it can add or subtract from the tongue weight depending on where it is located. If you want I can calculate the add or subtract but you will need to get me the distance from the center of the TT ball coupler to the center of the TT axles and then the distance from the center of the fresh tank to the center of the TT ball coupler. We can come back and look at this after.

Now let’s hitch up the camper and the Jeep and see how this comes out.

Using a properly adjusted WD hitch the Jeep front axle will not gain or lose weight.

Jeep front axle weight: 2,511# TT hitched and WD adjusted correctly
Jeep rear axle weight: 2,131# + 500# TT tongue weight = 2,631# (Still not over rear axle ratings or receiver)
Jeep GVW: 2,511# + 2,631# = 5,142# GVW against a 5,500# GVWR. So still OK here but getting close.
TT loaded GVW: 3,405#

Gross Combined weight: 2,511 + 2,631 + 3,405 = 8,547# GCW

Note: Technically a WD hitch will shift some of the loaded tongue weight to the camper off the rear axle, in this case maybe 75#. You are not in trouble on rear axle ratings so I let the truck hold it all for this calculation.

From a pure weight standpoint, as long as you stay in the 500# of cargo in the camper, weight wise you are in good shape. Again using a WD hitch and setting it up correct is key. You may even be able to take the fresh water pending the weight balance of where the fresh tank is.

Now to the pulling. This one is more of an issue because of the area you are in. On the east coast with elevations close to sea level your GCWR of the Jeep is 10,500# and you need to check it has the towing package and the high temp seals on the power steering it calls for in the manual. The Jeep manual talks about % frontal area of the trailer at 64 sq feet. That means if the area exposed wind resistance in the direction of towing forward is above 64 sq feet, towing performance can be affected. It is a disclaimer to tell the owner it will suffer some level of towing performance above that number. Your camper is 8 feet wide and most likely 8.5 feet tall plus maybe and AC unit. You are right near if not on top of the 64 sq feet. We all are, it is this brick we tow down the road called a TT.

Then there is the sea level part of a gas engine and no air device to jam more air in the engine. For every 1,000” above sea level you lose 3% of hp. To make this easier to compare a V8 engine will feel like a V6 engine (25% loss) when towing at 8,333 ft elevation. The higher you go the less you have. Again 3% loss for every 1,000 ft.

Down at sea level area you have 10,500# GCWR – 8,547 GCW = 1,953# of reserve pulling capacity. This is 1,953/10,500 X 100 = 18.6% reserve towing capacity. This good for sea level. At 8,333 ft above sea level this is 25% less and knocks this down to around 14% reserve. You may not feel this so much on the flats, climbing hills the Jeep is going to work especially at 10,000 ft it will work harder. If you were towing a boat that cuts through the air you will not feel it like you will with a large profile to the wind of a TT.

By the numbers you are close to the limits of the truck. Everyone has a different expectation on what is acceptable towing performance. I go after the weights first to make sure the truck and hold up the camper then look at towing performance. It is always more pleasurable with more reserve capacity, but it also depends how many times a year you go camping. Towing at capacity works but if you have lots of hills/mountains it will take it’s toll on you and the truck sooner. You will know.

Here are some tips that will help make what you have the best it can be.

• Make sure you have the truck in top shape, if miles are high, change the transmission fluid , rear axle oil, and the front axle/transfer case if this is AWD. The engine oil change is a given.

• Check on the towing package as listed in the manual. If it is missing see what can be added. Overheating while towing is not good.

• Tires: Air up the TT tires to max side wall cold pressure. Check every day before towing they are up that high.

• Jeep tires. Air up the truck rear tires to max side wall cold pressure when towing. The front must be at least at door sticker and experiment up to max cold side wall for towing. If the front bounces hard towing, drop 5 psi but never go below door sticker. Soggy truck tires can really aggravate trailer sway as the truck is wiggling on the soft side walls of the tire. You can air them back down to door sticker after the camping trip. Yes I know this is a pain going up and down in pressure. It can be managed though.

• You will need a good brake controller in the truck for the camper. Do not know if you have one or not yet.

• Good towing mirrors. You can’t beat a good set of towing mirrors that do not vibrate all over.

• A good WD hitch with anti sway control and set up properly. With the loaded tongue weight, the short wheel base on the Jeep, my recommendation is this is a requirement.

• Speed: This is within your control. 55 mph to a max of 60 is enough. Your ST trailer tires are only rated to tow a max of 65 mph. Prolonged towing above that speed will even more aggravate the breakdown of the tire that much faster. Plus towing at 55 mph you have “time” to gain experience and understand how your rig handles and is much safer. Once you start going above 45 mph towing dynamics start changing that much faster.

• Hang out in the far right lane. When semi’s approach, stay as far right and still be in your lane. The push pull of a semi will be less the bigger the distance between the 2 of you.

• Practice what to do if a sway event starts. If the trailer starts shifting the truck around due to wind or other sway events, do not slam on the Jeep brakes and do not try and steer out of the sway, both accelerate the sway. Hold the steering wheel straight unless you are going to hit something, reach for the trailer brake controller, firmly apply the TT brakes, then slowly let off the gas on the truck. Steering straight ahead and using the TT brakes controller manual lever at the start of the sway event can most times tame it right out. This action is not intuitive until you understand it and practice. It is natural to hit the truck breaks and you can totally loose it if the sway it very much advanced with the TT pushing the truck. By applying the TT brakes, the trailer is trying to hold the truck back, creating an inline tight connection helping to stop the sway.

• Do not tow in OD with your lighter truck. The high heat of the transmission hunting gears will not do the tranny any good. Read the Jeep manual if it even allows towing in OD, if so only use it on the flats.

• Going downhill, start down slow, use the engine to help hold you back. Down shift to 2nd if you have to. Do not ride the brakes for long periods of time. Firm brake to cut speed and let it roll again having the engine hold you back. Once the brakes get real hot, they fade and you do not have much stopping power any more.

• Once you get all loaded up, camper and all, go weigh the truck and camper. This is the only real way you know where you stand. If you going to do this, ask as there is a way to weigh a camper to get the right weights.

Hope all this helps. I typed it all out so hopefully you can see where it all came from and why. Ask for clarification on anything I stated so you understand it. And especially if I flubbed a number up where the match is not right.


Happy camping

John

[Photokit]

Wow, thanks John, that's a ton of information to digest. I have the Jeep Cherokee Laredo so I can see the figures you used will be adjusted a bit. I will have the jeep weighed with gas and passengers soon.

It looks like I will need a WD hitch and sway bar. I don't usually drive on 3-4 lane highways, local roads for the first year with Speed limits of 45-55 will help me get used to towing too. I looked at the Reese SC hitch kit at camping world and see I will have to save up to make the tow vehicle the best it can be. I will also ask my mechanic about the set up.

[Photokit]

BTW, I'm going to tow her up to Vallecito Campground this coming weekend. Easy drive, no mountain passes to deal with, just to get a feel for the rig. Do you usually carry your water for dry camping or use the water once you get to the campground?