JohnB or anyone--New member with towing questions

[Terhune]

I have a Reese brake controler in the TV (Jeep Commander Limited with a Hemi Engine) and I just purchased a 2004 Sunline Solaris SE T2499 and 26 ft. with a front bedroom. I have WD bars with chains (two links hanging) Reese hitch (I was told at dealer). On the passenger side I have a Pro Series friction sway bar. Now ...my questions .... I am sure more to follow.

At pickup of the TT I was 3 hours from home and the wind was blowing pretty hard and it was the first time I had pulled a TT. The wind was I think and assume most of my sway problem but I thought I had more sway than it should be. The sway bar was adjusted by the service tech and he showed me how to adjust it (only with the lever at the top). My 3 hour drive home was a bit nerve racking in the wind...when the wind died down at times it wasn't that bad of a pull. I noticed that the rear of my TV seemed light due to the WD adjustment( I assume). Do I need to change the WD links....adjust the sway bar tighter??? I am open to any and all comments. Please advise. I had a lot of TT movement and I did NOT like it.

Thanks for any info. JIM and KATHY Kentucky

[kanyonkitty]

When JohnB gets in here, he'll be a huge help to you. He is fantastic at helping people get their hitch setup tweaked to perfection. My first recommendation is going to be get rid of the friction sway bar and get a better sway control system since you have a short wheel based tow vehicle.

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by kanyonkitty

My first recommendation is going to be get rid of the friction sway bar and get a better sway control system since you have a short wheel based tow vehicle.

Ditto on the sway control.

Friction sway control is inappropriate for any trailer larger than about 5,000# GVWR. Your T-2499 is rated at 7,000# GVWR. Since you already have a Reese WD hitch system, the friction controller needs to be swapped out for a Reese Dual Cam sway control system.

The short of it is that the DC system uses the trailer's weight to prevent or greatly lessen sway.

And, as JohnB will soon tell you, there are a lot of adjustments to the basic WD system that will help in the control of your rig.

One other piece of information that we absolutely have to have is the weight rating of the WD arm. They vary from 600# up to 1,200#, and we really need to know what you have before we can get the whole thing sorted out for you.

Look back throught some of the threads here in Towing, and read up on John's writings about WD and sway. Most of what is already here will be very helpful to you and may even answer your questions.

[Terhune]

Steve

I am going to list all that is printed on the hitch that was placed into my 2" receiver.

"2" Hitch Bar Part # 63970....standard 13" long....weight dist. 14,000 lbs. trailer weight.....tongue weight determined by pull pin hole position 1,400 lbs or 1000 lbs."

The bolt position was moved to the 3rd hold down from the top by the service tech to level out my TV and TT.

I am going to send an email to the dealer to see if it is possible to swap out the NEW friction sway bar for the Reese Dual Cam if he has one and willing to do the swap. Is the Reese Dual Cam part of the Reese Hitch or would it have been extra cost to me when the hitch was mounted. I am concerned that I may have been put on the highway towing with a sway system that would not give me the control that I need and why the dealer did not inform me of this at the time. What is the cost of the Reese Hitch Dual Cam if I can't get a swap out at the dealer plus it would be another 3 hour one way drive to pick it up...(shipping?) I hope the information that I have given you can put me on the right track toward a safer pull. Thanks for any input and info. I have been reading the past threads and it has been helpful but I must admit that I am "brain dead" on some of what I am reading. Feel free to send me email and maybe I can get some pictures of the setup and send by email .
jterhune@win.net Thanks JIM

[Steve Collins]

We need to know the weight rating on the two arms (spring bars) that connect to the hitch head and then are held up to the trailer's A-frame by the chains. The are part and parcel of the towing system, and without knowing the weight rating of them, it is not going to be easy to help you. If there is a part number and manufacturer name on the spring bars, we can find the weight rating, but it is usually stamped into the metal. If they are brand new, they should have labels on them. They could be 600#, 800#, 1,000#, or 1,200#.

This is a basic WD system. The trailer's A-frame is included in the picture for reference.

Hopefully the dealer sold you trunnion style weight bars instead of round weight bars. There is no sway control. The system consists of the hitch shank (priced separately), hitch head, ball (probably priced separately), spring bars (these are the weight bars I refer to), chains on the end of the spring bars, and the hook-up brackets.

This is the Dual Cam sway control system:

It is the gold pieces in the picture that connect from the trailer's A-frame down to the tabbed ends of the spring bars.

If your weight bars are trunnion and have the angled tab on the chain end, they are good to go for the DC system **if** they are strong enough. If they are the lighter weight ones, you'll have to swap them up to at least 1,000# bars. Most reputable dealers will swap them for just the cost differential, especially if you learn about some of this stuff and talk to him from a postion of knowledge.

The DC system can be considered part of the WD system if you purchase it that way. The friction sway control is an alternative to the DC system, but is only good for lighter weight trailers. Your TT is rated for around 1,000# tongue weight and 7,000# GVWR.

I am not a dealer for this type of equipment so it is not appropriate for me to quote prices on portions of the system.

Jim, look up some of these towing systems on the internet. Reese's website (reeseprod.com) is extensive and can give you a good grounding in the different bits and pieces of these systems. One of the things you will quickly learn about TT owners is that they have all had to learn about these systems and become experts. I told you over in the Introduce Yourself forum that not all dealers have your best interests at heart when it comes to selling this stuff. Caveat emptor really applies here for your own safety (including your passengers) and the safety of those who share the highway with you.

If you can take pictures of this equipment, post them here in the discussion thread. Up in Sunline Community is a "sticky" about how to post pictures here. Pictures make a lot of this much easier to understand.

[Terhune]

Steve.......I sent an email to the dealer about the Dual Cam and doing a swap or whatever to get rid of the friction control and he returned the email and asked that I call him in the morning.

Just checked the bars. They are round on the TV end for about 1/4 th of their length then they start to flatten out all the way to the chain hook-up and the bars are straight with no curve at the end like some I have seen.
There is a sticker on the bar with a bar code and next to the bar code it says 1200 lbs. TW and I assume TW means total weight. I hope this info is what you need to get me on the right path.

I will not know about the Reese Dual Cam till in the morning when I make the call to the dealership. Will keep you posted and thanks for all your help and anyone else that gives me info. Thanks again. JIM

[Steve Collins]

(Edited at 07:30 Thursday, 5/7/09)

Jim,

OK, now we have enough information to get you pointed in the right direction.

First, the dealer sold you a round spring bar system. Not a bad system and he did give you the correct (1,200#) bars. If you didn't have a short wheel-base TV and already experienced massive sway, the round spring bar 1,200# WD might well be perfectly adequate.

BUT, (per JohnB's post below) the round spring bar model is only compatible with the old version of the Dual Cam. Not a super problem, but the newer version only works with the trunnion model WD system. There are some extra plusses to the newer version WD, but not critical ones.

Then, add in the Dual Cam in place of the friction bar. Now understand that the DC system has to be fine tuned, and there are already several great posts from JohnB here in Towing and Tow Vehicles about doing that. Since the sway control is part of the weight control, there are a lot of variables, but the bottom line is that it adds up to an amazingly powerful and secure towing system.

IMHO, the WD that the dealer sold you is OK as it is the proper weight rating for your trailer, but the friction control is just plain inadequate for a heavier unit like yours' as you found out first hand with your white-knuckle drive home. John is going to tell you about some critical points involving just weight distribution that may solve many but not all of your problems.

[rich2500]

honestly Jim it sounds like you just need your hitch adjusted properly,dealers basicly just slap things together close enough to get you down the road,first thing before making any adjustments though is you need to get the camper loaded up ready to camp then the fine tunning can be done. In order to use the dual cam you are going to need new bars and possibly a new hitch head depending on the manufacturer,see what the dealer says about that, but personally if the dealer is not willing to work with you on a set up for a dualcam I would not sweat it,you will be fine when you are setup properly(setup is the most important part)any sway control is otherwise just a band aide for improper set up,I personally use a friction bar and thats all I have ever used on several vehicles and several trailers and I have never once had a sway issue that could not be corrected by tweaking the setup.

[JohnB]

Hi Jim

First off, welcome to SOC and congrats on your 2004 T2499.

Now to your swaying problems. I’ll see where I can help. First off Steve and others has given you some very good help. Since you said where into sway already coming home empty from the dealer, but in wind, well we have some work to do. That is not a good feeling and needs to be addressed. There are reasons for what you felt and we can help you figure out what they are.

In your case of TV and TT, I am going to recommend we do a review of all towing setup parameters to make sure all are in line. With your short wheel base Commander and a T2499 hooked to it, each towing parameter should be tweaked to being optimum so you have the best you can get with what you have to start with. This process is not hard, but will take some time the 1st time you go thru this.

Along the way we may find a few things you might have to upgrade or at least you know where your limitations are. And most important that you understand what each of these things we are checking means so when we get done so you know how to adjust the setup in the future.

OK enough big picture lets get into it.

1. Need to talk about TT weight and balance. The good news is you have a Sunline. The T2499 is built by Sunline to be a very stable towing floor plan. In the dry configuration, the day it left Sunline, it has in the area of already a 14% tongue weight with no battery weight and no propane filled weight in the tanks. This means the center of gravity of the trailer is forward of the axles enough to put 14% of the TT gross weight on the tongue. 10 to 15% tongue weight of the total camper weight is needed to create natural low towing sway characteristics. I reommend 13 to 15% as 10% is iffy with one wrong gear move. Sunline on all models I have looked into have good tongue weight to create the natural stable towing. Many other brands are not. So we have a fairly good handle the Coach is built and balanced well. But I will ask first, on the way home from the dealer did you have any camping gear or other added weight in the TT and where was it located?

This is step one as if the TT is not balanced right, it will sway. Personally knowing that floor plan, I have one in the shed, even a 2004…. I do not feel right now you are suffering from low tongue weight. So we need to look further but do tell us if you had gear inside already.

Now we need to look at the truck. The T2499 with that stable towing also comes with high tongue weight when you load the camper with gear. And your TV needs to be able to handle this. I will try and not burry you with too much from the get go but we will need to come back to TT tongue weights and your truck so you do not accidentally put too much in the front of the camper and overload the back of your Commander.

And I tried to look up your 2006 Jeep Commander. We need to check some things. Here is a 2009 http://www.jeep.com/en/2009/commande...bility/towing/

You said 2006. This is what I found on 2006. http://www.edmunds.com/used/2006/jee...705/specs.html

Is yours the V6? 3.7 liter engine? I’m not a Jeep guy I just know what I looking for in the specs.

Or is this the 4.7 V8? http://www.edmunds.com/used/2006/jee...710/specs.html

2. Please tell us what engine you have an ideally if you know the rear axle ratio. We need to tell us if there is a pulling problem or how close you are to it once you load the camper.

3. And we need to know the TV axle ratings. I do not know how Jeep does this. On the driver door sticker it generally lists a few weight ratings. Need these numbers. GVWR Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, GAWR. Gross Axle Weight ratings. Need both the Front and rear axles. These number help tell us about your TV suspension and can it hold up the tongue weight of a T2499 even lightly loaded. The T2499 can have a 950 to 1,000# tongue when lightly loaded. Empty it can be in the 850# range. We can help you with some of how to combat that but with your truck we have to keep and eye on it for sure. We can try and find a curb weight on line to find out what league you are in with rear axle capacity left available.

You said the back of the truck felt light. Explain that? They may have lifted to much off the rear and the front tires are into sway/overload issues.

4. Tires and pressures. Need to know the size on the TV and what air pressure you had in them when you came home. Also what is the max cold side wall pressure on your tires? Tires are a large factor on short wheel base TV’s. The TT tires need to be at max side wall pressure. Your TV rear tire should be at max side wall pressure and the TV front must be at the door sticker pressure to start with. They may need more but is a twek once we get up and running. Bascially the truck can shift left to right becasue of tire side wall flex in P tires and this aggravates TT sway. Same on the TT, and in the case to the stock T2499, those tires must be at max side wall pressure to carry the loaded weight of the TT and be stiff enough to not contribute to sway.

5. The receiver in the back of the truck and it’s ratings. This one I’m concerned about with your TV. I helped a camping buddy with his Jeep Grand Cherokee and the receiver did not have a lot of WD mode carrying capacity. Jeep may have up’ed the size on the Commander, but it may also only be 750# in WD mode which is a problem to overcome. Look at the receiver and see if you find a rating sticker on it. If it has a sticker, it would look something like this one. But not as high a ratings.

Look for the Weight Distributing ratings. Tell us both the max trailer weight and the max tongue weight in the Weight Distributing mode. If there is no sticker, look in the owners manual as that was where my buddies was listed in the Grand Cherokee. Jeep use to size the WD mode to 10% of the tow rating of the Jeep. Which is Ok for a boat, but not a TT. Even if you have the 7,200# tow rating, that is then 720# of tongue weight. Not to worry just yet, just check it out and report back


Now to the hitch.

Your dealer may not budge on upgrading or refunding the friction sway bar as I’m sure they feel it is adequate for you as that is why they sold it to you. They may tell you to tighten it more. And that will add a minor level of help. But I feel your problems are deeper then just tightening the friction sway bar. I’m not bashing the friction sway bar, it has it place. But you have a small truck, short wheel base and big camper and a light TV suspension. There are better options that do not cost that much more and give much higher anti sway control ability. However the WD and TV setup comes before all anti sway features. WD and tires it and in itself can cause sway because the WD is not set right.

Before we get to the WD settings we really need to figure out what actual brand and model hitch you have so I can explain how to adjust it. If it is truly a Reese complete WD hitch and a new one, it should be convertible to a Reese DC even if it has the round bars that are flat. The still sell the older version at this point in time of the Reese DC that bolts on cams on the flat end of WD bars, rounf bars of square bars. Many have done this before. However Reese will soon be stop making it in 2009

The hitch shank part number you gave us Reese 63970 is this one. Does it look like this?


Now the hitch, is it this one? Look at the hitch head for the serrated washer and the top for 2 ears hanging out that the friction bar is on. Reese makes one whole lot of hitches and this may not be it. But you said round bar flat ends and Reese, if it is a real Reese that narrows it down some.






Here see a link to it on Etrailer. http://www.etrailer.com/p-49570.htm

Here is the older std Reese DC that bolts on to flat bar ends like yours if that is the hitch you have above.





Here is a link to it. http://www.etrailer.com/p-26000.htm

It sounds like you have 1,200# WD bars. A picture will go a long ways here so we can see exactly what you have. Right now, I’m more worried about the TV receiver not being heavy enough to actual use all the hitch you already have. OR to hold up the TT tongue weight that you already have before you load the camper. We need to get past that part and then we can work on the rest. It may be fine, but you will tell us the numbers and we can confirm.

Next steps after we get your info is to help make sure all things are rated OK, then we need to check the WD setup. Then we can sort out the anti sway controls.

I’ll email you my address and you can send some pics and I’ll post here so we can all see or you just post them yourself if you have a photo server already. We need to get you to be a pic posting guru anyway. We here on SOC really like Pics….

Hope this helps

John

[rich2500]

some info on the 06 commander 4x4 limited 5.7L
max trailer weight 7200lbs
wheelbase 106.5 inches
gear ratio 3:73
payload 1230lbs
curb weight 5169
http://www.xkjeeps.com/xk_specs.htm

[Terhune]

JohnB............

I got your email about the pictures being sent to you and I will get them as soon as possible.....seems like it has been raining here for a week. First....when I brought the TT home there was no camping gear in the TT. The only weight may have been the battery---it does have the electric lift on the tongue and it has some propane...one tank sounds empty and I don't think the other one is completely full. We will only use the propane for the stove and oven only when needed if raining.....all cooking will be on a grill in good weather so my plan is to only keep one tank full. The front storage compartment has the gray plastic slide out tray for easy access to gear so I am sure that will add some weight. We will not be camping for extended periods of time....possibly for 10 days at the longest.

Second.....the picture of the #63970 is what I have. The hitch in the picture is what I have except I have only one ear sticking out on the passenger side where the friction bar is attached (small ball hookup). The WD bars look to be the same and are attached in the same manner. The bars are attached by inserting from the bottom to a notch and then rotate toward the TT for chain attachment. Will these bars still work for the Reese dual cam .......by looking at the pictures I should be able to use the dual cam in the photo without changing the bars which I would prefer due to cost issues and the dealer is 3 hours from me (if they work on my TT). I'm not sure what the dealer is going to tell me yet.

Third.......My Jeep Commander Limited has the 5.7L Hemi engine about 330 horsepower...Trail Rated 4 wheel drive with factory tow package installed. I will have to get back to you on tire pressures and axle ratings. Will check the door stickers and the receiver sticker as soon as possible.

One more question....does the older style Reese DC work just as well as the newer style and is there some reason that I should not get the older style which could save me a little money over replacing the bars and starting over. I sure hope so.

I will try to get the other info your requested as soon as possible but I will probably make the call to the dealer first (I think they open at 9:00). Thank you for your help and I will be in contact with you....pictures I hope. JIM

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by rich2500

some info on the 06 commander 4x4 limited 5.7L
max trailer weight 7200lbs
wheelbase 106.5 inches
gear ratio 3:73
payload 1230lbs
curb weight 5169
http://www.xkjeeps.com/xk_specs.htm

Rich, Thanks this helps. That is a better link.


Jim, please confrim that these are the specs for your Commander while you are searching for the reciever and axle ratings. The curb weight and payload are going to be book values less options, people and gear inside but it points us to areas that have to be dug into deeper. And in this case with a T2499, they will have for sure need to be dug into this deeper.

If these are right, You have a big engine and an good rear axle ratio but the suspension is light and going to be an area to focus on as part of your total towing solution.

Thanks

John

[Terhune]

John.......got tied up on the phone and I have to get back on the phone after this email. Will check on the hitch and door stickers as soon as possible and get back with you. The site furnished by Rick seems to have it all and I assume it is correct. You should be able to base all info needed on that site for the Hemi 5.7 L.....4 wheel drive Commander. I do get better gas milage than stated. I get 17.2 and while the TT is hooked on I will probably get the .2 and kiss that 17 good bye. Will get back to you...got to get on the phone for a while. Early (62)Social Security here I come!!

thanks JIM

[Terhune]

John.....pictures were just sent to you by email but door sticker is fuzzy.

This is on the sticker.....GAWR front 2950 lbs.
GAWR rear 3650 lbs.
GVWR 06400 lbs.

More info from dealer....he said he would swap out the hitches but it would be at too much cost to me. He said the older style Reese DC bolt on would work on the hitch I have now and would be the least expensive to me but he only stocks the newer model but said that I could get the older style from anyone (dealer or used) that had one in stock. He also said that what I have on the TT now was rated up to 28 ft. and if I made it tighter it would be all I need. He said the service tech adjusts the friction bar at a standard tightness and that I would (after pulling the TT) would be the best judge as to tightness and the way I wanted it to pull. He also got a weather report after I pulled out and was heading home and I got gusts of wind at 40 and 45 miles and hour hitting me and at that wind speed I would have some sway reguardless of the type of sway control I had on so I guess I should have pulled off of the interstate for a while for the weather to calm down. My mistake.

I am going to pull the TT on Saturday for another trial run down the interstate and a short trip home and I am going to tighten the friction sway bar but I would still prefer the OLD STYLE Reese bolt on dual cam. I am going to call a Dealer in southern Ind. just across the river from Louisville and see if he has the old style in stock or do you know somewhere I can get a used one (or a dealer with one in stock) in excellent condition.

With the pictures and the info I hope you can put me on the path to getting it right and SAFE. Let me know if you got the pictures. thanks JIM

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by Terhune

I would still prefer the OLD STYLE Reese bolt on dual cam. I am going to call a Dealer in southern Ind. just across the river from Louisville and see if he has the old style in stock or do you know somewhere I can get a used one (or a dealer with one in stock) in excellent condition.

It seems like I heard somewhere that the old style DC was no longer in production, so finding a new one would be quite difficult. I think your best bet would be to try a small dealer (maybe local) or maybe even a cargo trailer dealer who probably wouldn't sell many and would have some old ones in stock.

Jon

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by Terhune

I am going to pull the TT on Saturday for another trial run down the interstate and a short trip home and I am going to tighten the friction sway bar but I would still prefer the OLD STYLE Reese bolt on dual cam. I am going to call a Dealer in southern Ind. just across the river from Louisville and see if he has the old style in stock or do you know somewhere I can get a used one (or a dealer with one in stock) in excellent condition.

Jim,

Phone around to as many local RV dealers as you can looking for the old style DC. If they don't have a new one, don't be afraid to ask if they have a used one. There are a lot of good deals out there on this stuff. It's hard to damage one of these, so condition isn't quite as critical as you might think when it comes to paint or minor rust.

Also, if you have places near you that deal in trailers (horse trailers, utility trailers, etc.) they also carry all this stuff and usually at a better price than an RV dealer for a separate purchase. One of them here in my area is the Reese distributor for the whole of western NY state. He's always got things like this, new or used.

Craigslist is also a possibility, but it may not be possible to find just the DC you want. Usually folks are selling the whole hitch system. But still work looking at.

Also, there are a number of reliable places on the internet where you can still get the old style DC, but shipping charges may be a bit high to make that much of a deal. You'll just have poke around and see what you can find.

Here is a link to Reese's catalog for WD and sway control: http://www.towingproducts.com/catalogpdf-r/6-wd.pdf
If you read down through it, on page 297, they show a round bar WD that has the tabs on the ends of the spring bars for the new style DC. You might want to think about that as there are some advantages to the new style DC.

Also, that whole section of their catalog is a good place to learn about the different bits and pieces of towing systems.

Also, please don't forget to look on the TV's receiver and let us know what the weight ratings are for WD towing. That is very important to this whole discussion.

One final comment... Now that you've talked to the dealer and relayed all that to us, it sounds like he originally presumed that you would understand about adjusting a WD system. Many RV dealers do that, and it doesn't always work out the way they think it should. Getting your first TT and WD and sway control is a whole bunch of stuff to absorb all at once. When I bought my Sunline in 1998, the dealer installed everything and the vehicle was all hooked up and waiting for me in the parking lot. When I got home and dropped the trailer, I found that the ball had never been tightened and the bolts holding the chain hook-ups were not tight. The bolts for adjusting the tilt and height of the ball platform weren't very tight either. This wasn't my first WD system so it wasn't a big deal to get out my tools and tighten things up, but I can only imagine how someone with no experience with this would feel.

[JohnB]

Hi Jim

Quick note back during lunch. More later.

You have the standard Reese round bar hitch with the rotating hex washer head tilt. And the standard end WD bars. Here is the instructions for it.

http://www.reeseprod.com/fitguides/pdf/N66067.pdf

And the Reese catalog http://www.towingproducts.com/catalogpdf-r/6-wd.pdf See page 297 for your hitch

What you have is "almost" as Reese 61009 hitch. I say almost as the dealer gave you the flat end bars in place of the angled WD bars. Again they fit, just not like if you bought it from Reese in a packaged deal.

Note: The WD bars in that instruction kit shows the V angled ends. Yours are the straight ends. It is common for a Dealer to stock hitches in parts and then just bolt up the pieces when they sell a hitch. Not like a kit that comes from Reese.

On the std DC. A new one for sale is here while they are left: $164 including shipping
http://www.etrailer.com/p-26000.htm

However before you buy it let me check that it will fit on your frame and not hit the propane tanks with the U bolts. My 2004 T2499 frame and your are the same. I can check tonight.

And before you buy, there are some things in the hitch and the truck you have now that are limiting your adjustment in WD. I'll type more tonight and post your pics. Basically, don't buy anything yet until we check the entire siuation out.

To folks following along. Jim has a real nice looking 2004 Filon sided T2499 complete with Alum rims. Cool!

More Later

John

[JohnB]

Gee, Steve can type faster then I can.... Even the same page link in the Reese catalog...

Yes we need the reciever sticker. Very important. Got to get back to work

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Gee, Steve can type faster then I can.... Even the same page link in the Reese catalog...

Nah, just a bit more free time in my day....

I found that page of the Reese catalog while I was looking about for specs on the friction sway control system. My memory says that someone somewhere posted a link to an actual spec sheet for them. It would be realy helpful to have one to show to folks.

[JohnB]

Here are some pics of Terhune's rig. I have to go do some work in the shed, be back later.

Jim cool camper!