Got new tires on the Excursion...

[Sunline Fan]

I'm anal, I admit it. I should mention, in almost five years and 44,000 miles, they are only the third facility (once each) to ever drive the truck. I had incredibly high standards for a place to install new tires and Belle Tire in Novi stood up to my expectations with one small exception. I gave them a long list of caveats to follow, including 65 PSI in all, rubber/metal combo valve stems, new date coded tires (within the last 6 months), white letters out, and all wheels torqued to >140 ft-lbs. All this while also honoring a competitor's price!

Even though John has not had such good luck with the LTX M/S, they have changed the M/S line in some way and I've heard good reports for both on the Excursion. Plus I don't tow the Sunline that much right now, and if I do, there's a chance I'll be using the F-450 anyway.

I was really lucky, they just got these tires in on a truck from the warehouse the other day. All four have the same DOT number and the date code is 4511, so the 45th week of 2011 is roughly early November. I'm a happy camper



Shortly after arrival in staging position. Hubcaps and OEM Ford bullet nose valve stem caps removed by me upon arrival. Arrived approximately 14:00 with vehicle, but it had been in the queue since approximately 13:00. I made sure it was nice and clean for them and I specifically made a point of not shining the old tires...



It was finally pulled into the bay at around 16:30. Despite their worries about it fitting on this particular lift due to the length and weight, they made this one work. As you can tell, it was a busy day for them. There were six vehicles ahead of me at 15:00. I put 44,250 miles on the old set of Bridgestone Dueler REVO LT265/75/R16E, but I suspect they had a total between 48-50,000 miles on them with the previous owner's use too and were almost completely used up. They were incredibly noisy for the second half of their lives too.



Removing the rims to dismount old tires and install new. Note the alignment tech on the right. He had just finished staring at the "Wishing for a 7.3 Powerstroke Diesel" badge on the door for over a minute and having a very impressed/jealous look on his face...



It was a little uneasy for me to watch this, because it was rocking back and forth some while up in the air.



Hard to see, but they were mounting the tires here. I've taken such good care of them and since they have no corrosion on the face whatsoever, the bead area also had no corrosion. They just had to wipe them off and start mounting the new. Michelin LTX M/S2 LT265/75/R16E. My only complaint here is that they only inflated them to between 55.0 and 55.5 PSI instead of the 65 PSI as requested by me and added to the work order. I have to inflate these up yet as well as clean the spot on the rim where the old weight was, but it's too cold outside tonight to do that this evening.



They had to mount special 8-lug adapters to them in order to balance. Had to install with an impact.



Here, the tech is executing computer balancing for all four tire/wheel combos. I was very impressed here. They not only balanced each one to perfection (.000 on both sides of each wheel), the tech also scrubbed off the blue coating from the white lettering.



The new Michelins finally installed!



Moving over for a free included alignment check. Alignment checked out just fine and required no further work.



Finally done, just after 18:00. After they pulled it up, I reinstalled the center caps and exchanged the plain valve stem caps with the Ford OEM ones. These tires just look amazing and are so quiet! I know Belle was glad to get rid of me since I was constantly asking questions and wanting to go out in the shop (which required an escort).

The tire tag:



Jon

[henryj]

We have over 8000 mi. on the second generation LTX M/S2--mostly cross country towing--and they have performed very well. I'm running 65 psi in the front and 75 psi in the rear. The truck is strictly a second vehicle--parked for the winter right now--so I leave these pressures in for solo driving as well rather than mess with them.

Fortunately I have not suffered any of the instability that JohnB warned about in the first generation M/S. I think that is more due to the inherent stability of my 153" crew cab wheelbase and the 2499, known for its optimal wheel placement and high tongue weight. I didn't know any of that when we bought this rig, so we got lucky. I don't know how flexible the sidewalls of the original M/S are, but the M/S2 is definitely on the soft end. I bought from a large shop that sells a lot of LT tires and they had at least 8 brands and models lined up the showroom floor. It is very easy to move the M/S2 around by pushing on the tread or pulling on the sidewalls. There are much stiffer LT tires out there including BFG. I did not notice any difference in the upgrade from the OEM Bridgestones, but also kept them at 65/75.

3/4 ton trucks--at least like my 07 vintage--typically come with a 6000 lb. rear axle and 4400 lb. front. The factory psi on the door sticker 50 front and 80 rear gives an LT245/16 LRE the same load capacity as the axles. Sometimes the axle is still stronger than the tires, but nobody will tell us by how much. For example, the GM 2500HD used to have a RGAWR of 6084 lb. How did they come with that?? It's two LT245s at 80 psi. Therefore the tire not the axle is limiting the RGAWR.

IMO, 50 psi front is still too low on a big truck even if it can't carry anywhere near 4400 lb. on the front axle without a snowplow or a big camper. For example, on my truck the fully loaded hitched up camping weight is only 3340 lb. on the front axle and that's almost exactly the same as the empty weight. According to load inflation tables, 40 psi will already carry that weight. So the question is, how low should the psi go on a tire that is designed for a maximum of 80? Stiffer tires always give more stability, better handling (no rolling under on quick steering moves), but also a harsher ride. I have run at least 5 psi over factory on all my vehicles, including cars, for years. I have never experienced excess wear in the center treads which leads me to believe that is not really a problem any more with modern radial designs.

I believe the LTX M/S2 needs at least 60-65 psi just to stiffen it up. On the front axle that pressure will already far exceed the GAWR and no additional psi is needed to carry a full load--unless it's a snowplow or cab over camper.

Henry

[Sunline Fan]

Excellent response, Henry.

Just this afternoon I got them inflated up to 65 all the way around. I ran this in the last Bridgestones and it worked well. The door sticker actually calls for 45 front 55 rear with the original LRD tires, but interestingly enough, after the big Firestone Steeltex recall, the factory replacement of either BFG Rugged Trail or Pirelli Scorpion (on 2WD's) still retained the same sticker pressures with both being LRE's.

I've only put ~15 miles on these so far and none on them at 65, but aside from the difference in noise level, they do seem to ride a little stiffer than the Bridgestones. That being said, towing the Sunline with the Bridgestones wasn't real fun. I know some of it could have been due to not having a sway bar on the rear (the '02 model year was a year shy of getting a factory one), but I really think a lot of it had to do with the tires. I mean, it wasn't too bad of an experience, I just could tell when comparing it.

Jon

[ihsolutions]

And I thought *I* was anal....

I bought the LTX M/S in 2009 for my 2500HD prior to picking up the Sunline 5th wheel. I liked those tires and used them (for towing only) for about 10-15k miles before noticing fatigue cracks on the sidewall, starting about halfway between the distance from the rim to the tread, extending almost up to the tread.

I went into Belle Tire and they sent in a warranty claim to Michelin and offered a prorated 75/25 replacement (them paying 75%). I took this and ran, because all my miles were towing (half with the Sunline 5'er, and half with my much heavier Heartland 5'er). Those tires had been heat cycled a lot of times. Also the back tires had worn considerably more than the front in only 10k miles, presumably from all the weight of the 5'er.

So for about $300 I got four new tires (the LTX M/S 2) which were even better than the first set. I put about 3k miles on them, and then sold the truck.

Today I placed an order for a 2012 Chevy 3500HD Dually, CC 4x4 Duramax. Guess what tires that one comes with!

[Sunline Fan]

Wow, congrats on the new truck! Will you still be able to fit it in your garage?

[JohnB]

Jon,

I'm not against the LTX, I actualy on purpose put them on DW's Trailblazer as they are great in this application. However as a towing tire on a 130" wheel base, no they are not for me. Between the front end un-stableness and the funky rear tire wear patterns I have not had a pleasant experience with them. I know other 2500 Suburban owners who had the same issues.

I'm glad to hear Henry's report and that his experience so far has been positive. Henry reading your post I see some things that may be helping you. First off you started out on pressure in the 60 to 65 psi area. I found that 60 psi was the point where I started to gain back stability. 50psi like the door sticker on the 2500's states is not good with the LTX. It was great on the Steel Tex I had that where OEM but not the LTX.

The other factor is your 153" wheel base. The combo of 60 psi or higher and 153" helps overcome the softer side wall issues. For sure the longer WB helps regardless of tire on more stable towing. As along as you do not dip down to 55 or 50 psi on the front you may never find the issue I had. And I hope you do not. Time will help tell if rear tires will wear that same funky feathering pattern I had.

I have a camping buddy with a 2001 F250 extended cab and a V10. He too had the Steel Tex and he use to run the front at 50 like I did. He even has a Hensley hitch on top of it towing his 34 foot camper. When he converted he left the LTX at 50 on the front and even he felt the soffness in a turn that shifted the front of the truck around. Gave him a real uneasy feeling. Since he had the Hensley he had to sway issues just the floating front end. He aired them up in the 60 psi area and the issue went away. The front end of his F250 is leaf springs like Jon's Ex is.

And I have yet another camping buddy with a early 2000 F250, extended cab long bed with the 7.3 PSD up front. He airs the front to 70 psi and swears the LTX is the best towing tire around. That big hunk of an engine up front does not make the 70 psi seem so hard of a ride. He too has a leaf spring front end.

The learning in this, the LTX seems to do well on longer WB's trucks and at 60 psi and above on the front. Just heads up on 130" WB. That may be the lower limit. The jury is still out on the rear tire wear patterns. Seems Ihsolutions had something else going on his as well.

Thanks for posting. The leaning never stops.

John

[Sunline Fan]

I put some miles on today and I think these are definitely stiffer than the old Bridgestones at the same pressure. I went over a railroad track and it wasn't bad, but it was noticeably harsher than before.

BTW John, my wheelbase is 137", so we'll see if there's anything unusual happening.

Just curious, where is the fuel tank at on the 2500 'burbs? Mine is in the back behind the axle, so if the 'burb's tank is more center mounted, I wonder if that difference in weight distribution would make a difference for the rear tire wear?

[ihsolutions]

Originally Posted by Sunline Fan

Wow, congrats on the new truck! Will you still be able to fit it in your garage?

Yes and no. I have a three car garage that is only 20' deep. The old truck (extended cab short bed) fit with 1" or so to spare.

The new truck is going to go in at a 45 degree angle and leave no room for other cars in the garage.

When winter comes, I won't be using the truck anyway so I will find somewhere indoors I can store it for 5 months or so. This way DW does not bark about having to scrape snow off her car each morning!

To the comments about air pressure. 95% of my mileage with the LTX's was towing, so I always left them aired up to 80psi. I never experienced any of the problems mentioned above. I should also note that the sidewall cracks were exceptionally small, and I only noticed them because I keep a VERY close eye on tires. Even from 1' away, you couldn't see these cracks. You had to get REAL close.

In all cases, I never exceeded the weight rating on the rear tires (6084lbs), but I was within a few hundred pounds of it most of the time, for sure.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Sunline Fan

Just curious, where is the fuel tank at on the 2500 'burbs? Mine is in the back behind the axle, so if the 'burb's tank is more center mounted, I wonder if that difference in weight distribution would make a difference for the rear tire wear?

I had 2 gas tanks to make 40 gallons. A main one and a smaller secondary one. This came this way from GM to fit in the space available. A smaller flat one was above the spare tire which was right behind the receiver. That smaller tank flowed into the large main tank which if I remember correct was a long large tank on the driver side of the drive shaft. Your EX weighs more then my prior K2500 Burb. Even though Burb had more cargo capacity the EX is truly a beast sitting on weak rear springs.

My loaded rear axle weight in the Burb with the T2499 on it was 5,040# The 2500 Burb only has a GAWR of 5,600#. They derate it down from the PU trucks. As Henry pointed out the tires are rated 6,040# so I was 1,000# away from the tire max weight.

In our case DW used the Burb to go to the store. It was towing 85% of the time and the rest non towing.

Here is what to look for. Almost a feathering






Those pics where taken after 3,391 miles on them on the rear.


John

[Hematite]

For 3,400 miles, that is a strange wear pattern for a rear tire. Actually, it's a strange wear pattern for a rear tire, period.