2005 3 Valve 6.8 Plug Change - Cracked Insualtors

[JohnB]

Hi Folks,

Today was my first at changing 2005 V10 spark plugs. This thread may help if you get into this OR seal the deal to not take it on yourself....

This post also relates to discussion here on SOC. See part way down the page http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...m-12820-2.html

To bring you up to speed here is where I am at.

I have researched this plug change for 6 to 8 months reading anywhere I can find info on this vintage engine. I have the 3rd generation TSB issued April 2008, 7 pages.

I have run 3 gas tanks through the engine using Seafoam injector cleaner to soften up the carbon.

When done, I am replacing the plugs with Motor Craft SP-515's and all new Motor Craft COPS with boots. I am at 75,500 miles. If I get another 75K out of the new set problem free, then great. It is worth it. I will use some of the older COP's as spares with new boots.


I have tried 3 methods to get these plugs out and the end result is the same across all 3, left over cracked insulators.

Here are the events of the day in pics. First the engine itself


The COPs unhooked. Gee not much room in here especially near the fire wall.


Right side. No 8 and 10 will be interesting.


The left rear


The COP's came out OK


Then the plugs. Cracked each loose about 1/16 to 1/8 of turn. Put Kano Kroil penetrating oil around plug and left for an hour while I went for lunch. Many have had good luck with the Kroil so I tried it.

No 10 was a bear.




After lunch I tried plug tried the 3/8 impact method now popular figuring the rear ones are going to be a hand full. So I started on #1 cylinder out in the open.


Not good. Here is 1 with a cracked insulator stuck inside




OK let's abort that method and go to plug 2 using a torque wrench set at 28 ft lb. This method goes on to not put more then 28 ft lb into the plug before backing up as the shield rips loose around 33 ft lb. Worked it back and forth by hand. Nope no luck. This one left the electrode inside.


Dug the electrode out with long needle nose, the insulator is stuck in there like no 1.

Then thought maybe I did not press hard enough on the impact when backing it out. So I leaned hard on the impact and did no 3. WOW out it came, intact.


So I went to no 4 with the impact. Nope cracked insulator.

So I went to a short ratchet and just inched it back and forth, back and forth. Then I blasted carb cleaner in the hole and let it soak. Once the plug was free, I air blew out what was left of the carb cleaner to not let it drop down in the cylinder. I stayed with this method for the rest of the plugs. It was hit or miss. Here is the score.

7 cracked with the insulator stuck inside and 3 came out. 1 came out with the impact, 2 came out by the short ratchet.

Here is the set


The left bank


The right bank


Here is a new plug next to an old complete plug. They are worn. How these would make it to 100K ????


Learning from this, I removed the radiator overflow and the wire harness to gain more working room. It did not help the crack problem but did make it easier to work on.



Left clear


Right clear


I was prepared for the cracked shields and even have the tool to pull them.


Just I cannot use it yet until I get the stuck insulators out. This tool is intended for pulling the insulator and takes 1 hr cure time per plug.
Cal Van Triton tool

And this one ATD Triton Tool

I drove around today to the Ford dealer, Napa and Advance and nothing. Napa and Advance have the shield removal tool but not the insulator.

It will not be until Tuesday at the earliest for UPS Red to show up off of Amazon. I tried a drill bit to stuff in and yank on but it slipped out and did not want to press my luck snapping it off.

Does any one know of any other method that they have used or heard used to remove a total intact insulator? With 7 of these to do, I will need to get good at it...

I have read a lot on the forum but have not run into the cracked insulator removal. I am glad I have no stripped plug hole threads. The Kroil may have helped save that. This is the bright point into today's saga. It could be worse...

Thanks for any help.

John

[Jim-Bev-2363]

I read on one site that Ford makes a special tool just for getting these busted tips out. Did find a part number for it yet.

Also read that a mechanic added air pressure to the cylinder and then chipped the ceramics away until he could fit the tool in to remove the sleeve.

A post at 6:35 on this page is where I was reading. Ford has screwed up withthe F150 spark plugs - can I kill them now? - Motor Trend The General Forum Forum

It also said there had been a plug redesign. Are your plugs the new style that are breaking? Are your replacements the new design or same as the originals?

Sounds like this has been a real problem for many V10 owners. Good Luck with yours.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

One suggestion I read, which was something to do after the fact, is to replace plugs early (not a choice for you) and hope they haven't stuck and breaking when removed. When replacing the new plugs someone said to add anti-seize to the plug. That may be a great idea but the threads don't look to be the problem. It looks like what is happening is the space between the sleeve and the plug hole collects contaminants. Can't tell if that is shellacked fuel or what but anti-seize on the threads only help the threads and not the ceramic tip sleeve.

I wonder if placing something inside the plug that will dissolve the buildup would work. Maybe even lacquer thinner would be better than a engine rebuild.


Edited to add: Are these the same plugs in the 5.0 in my Expedition?

[EMD_Driver]

The antiseize may be an option, but I would highly recommend using the nickle antiseize.. It's made for temperatures up to 1,600*

[Jim-Bev-2363]

John, try this: Alternative to the Rotunda 303-1398 - Auto Specialty Tool | Denlors Auto Blog

[Jim-Bev-2363]

What temperatures are reached in the combustion chamber?

[EMD_Driver]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

What temperatures are reached in the combustion chamber?

I am not sure about the gas engines, but I can get my diesel up to 1,250* on my exhaust gas temperature gauge on hard pulls.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

The real solution to this problem is to install plugs that are of better design. That will call for more research.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Originally Posted by EMD_Driver

I am not sure about the gas engines, but I can get my diesel up to 1,250* on my exhaust gas temperature gauge on hard pulls.

No wonder we can cook on top of the motors.

[EMD_Driver]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

The real solution to this problem is to install plugs that are of better design. That will call for more research.

The manufacturers will do whatever is cost effective for themselves. It would cost a lot of money, to redesign something used in a 7 year-old vehicle.. Are they still using that plug design?

[Jim-Bev-2363]

The "right" plug replacement will not be Ford products but after market.

Ford has a 18 page Technical Service Bulletin TSB 08-7-6 dated 04/14/08 with instruction on how to remove these plugs, supposedly. I looked and my 2008 5.4 Expedition is part of this crap.

The 5.4 motors made before 10/9/07 are part of this design problem.

[clueless campers]

Yep, our F-150 has these plugs. Apparently, 2004 was the first year they were used in the 5.4 Triton.

I feel your pain John. Hopefully you get the correct removal tool soon and don't lose any camping time.

[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

The problem I am having occurs on the 2005 to 2008 4.6, 5.4 and 6.8 modular engines.

I have a copy of the TSB on my hard drive but here is an on line version.
Full Text Technical Service Bulletin

The tool you linked me to I already have and looks like this.


I cannot yet use that tool as the insulator is still on the plug shell.

The TSB shows the other tool to pull the insulator. I linked to it here. 3 of those kits will show on on Tuesday at my house. So I can do 3 at a time. It takes an hour cure time on the Loctite before you pull the ceramic out. Using 1 at a time that is 7 hours or in my case 7 days... doing this after work. So I'm speeding up the process with more extractors.

Amazon.com: Cal-Van Tools 39200 Triton Spark Plug Porcelain Extractor for Ford: Automotive


I do have the new upgraded plugs and I do have the Ford nickel anti sieze as listed in the TSB and you use it on the shell when you install it. It helps ward off the carbon which is what is causing this problem. The issues is the plug extends down way into the head. Carbon builds up and wedges between the head wall and the plug shell.

The new plug is to the left of the old plug in this pic. The only other option I know of for a plug is the Champion 7989. While it has a better setup of the shell, reports have been so mixed on the plug miss firing that I will stick with the upgraded double platinum Motor Craft.



Now once I get the insulator out then you use the other tool to pull the stuck electrode shell out. You can see here for a video on how it works

Champion 7989 - YouTube

One of the errors I made was not buying the insulator kit along with the shell removal kit. Now I have to wait for it to show up.

I have heard about the bust it up of the ceramic, but the risk of chips down in the cylinder is more then I want to attempt, and 7 times no less. I was hoping to bump into someone who has physically done this before and found other methods, other then the break it up into pieces.

The ceramic kit I linked came later in the life of this problem. Some times the shell separates and the insulator does not break. Until it was developed shops used something, I was trying to find what those tricks where. Maybe the only way was bust it up. I was hoping a shell break would be the only failure I would have and that running 3 gas tanks of injector cleaner would clean out the carbon better. There is a lot on shell breaks out on the web, just not much on the insulator breaks.

This is not only a V10 problem. It is in the 4.6's and the 5.4's of the 2005 to 2008's.

What year is your Navigator?

I'm not happy I have this problem but when the truck runs, it is a work horse and in 75K miles I have not had one miss fire issue. Each brand has it's issues. This is one unique to this one. At least it does not have the prior generation spitting plug issue. Ford fixed this new issue of the long shell plug in 2008 with a head redesign to a more traditional plug. I do not know all the exact reasons that drove them to this unique long extension plug, just that I have it...

Next plug change, if I own the truck that long, I need to try a different injector cleaner. Have no idea 5 years from now what gas will be like. This engine does not like much to do with ethanol so we need other options.

Thanks for looking up what you did. More info always helps.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

I looked and my 2008 5.4 Expedition is part of this crap.

The 5.4 motors made before 10/9/07 are part of this design problem.

Well..... now you are prepared for it better.... if that is any consultation

Knowledge is power which is what camping forums are all about.

John

[Jim-Bev-2363]

john, Is that the Ford tool? It looks different that the one I linked. That one had the tool to push the porcelain down some so the other tool could be used to pull the metal sleeve.

There is a video of someone using the tool so please check all of this page: Ford Spark Plug Removal Tool - Picture of Ford's Bad Design | Denlors Auto Blog

I do use Sta-Bil in my gas tank. Regularly since the Ethanol attracts moisture to much. I'm hoping it will help reduce that corrosion on the plug/motor.


Edited: They did recommend use of a high temp anti-seize on the plug shaft.

The TSB and recommendations from other mechanics is to only work on a cold motor and do not use the spark plug socket with the rubber insert. Use standard sockets and a length of 3/8" hose to pull the plug.

Good luck with your fix and don't forget to contact your State Attorney General about how much this simple plug installation is costing with you doing the work.

[JohnB]

Jim,

H'mm, the Lisel tool works different then mine. I also noticed on his plugs he took out they where bone dry and the carbon was higher then mine. Odds are they did not run injector cleaner in the engine before attempting the plug removal. Everything we can do to lower the carbon before attempting this helps. Even in my case it was not enough...

Your U tube link
Ford 3 valve spark plug removal 4.6 5.4 & 6.8.mp4 - YouTube

I see after reading more on that tool that the extractor threads are short and can strips out in some cases. Basically this works like an EZ out. And you are pushing the ceramic down to gain room for the extractor tip. They claim it will stop pushing before the ceramic hit the end of the electrode anvil. Then a left thread EZ out type screw bits in the short distance left and jack on it to get it out.

I did not know of that type of tool action. Thanks for the link. Learning more.

My shell removal tool works more like the Ford Rotundra tool. It is this one. Ford Triton Spark Plug Extractor

Once you get the ceramic out, you put a filler cup tip with grease in it down in the end to help keep and chips from getting in the cylinder. Then there is a long shank tap you put grease on the tap to hold the chips and tap the inside of the shell. Then screw in the puller tool and jack out the shell.

This method while it takes longer, does at least offer more threads engaged in the puller.

I'll hold the final thoughts on which is better until I try the porcelain extractors coming on Tuesday. I'll take pics of the process and post.

I now the Stabil, but I do not know if that eliminates the carbon. May want to read up more on injector cleaner. Talking to the parts guy at the local Ford dealer they have 1 guy who does all the plug changes on these engines. It seems they have a flushing machine they hook up to the engine in some fashion, most likely in the fuel injectors and they run cleaner through the system for a while to soften up the carbon. Then take the plugs out. I took the TSB to them trying to buy the Ford listed carb cleaner and the Nickle anti-sieze. They have neither... They use after market and that was when he told me about the flushing machine.

I went to a 2nd dealer to get the Ford listed anti-seize. The normal Napa/Advance etc only have the copper type. No nickel. Then later I found it on Amazon, made by Permatex. Amazon.com: Permatex 77124 Nickel Anti-Seize - 8 oz. brush-top bottle: Automotive

I also used this plug socket and glad I did. Amazon.com: OTC 6900 Ford F-150 Spark Plug Socket: Automotive that was a tip from Hematite here on the forum.

We will see how Tuesday goes.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by clueless campers

Yep, our F-150 has these plugs. Apparently, 2004 was the first year they were used in the 5.4 Triton.

I feel your pain John. Hopefully you get the correct removal tool soon and don't lose any camping time.

Thanks Dona, I know the pain you went through last year on your truck.

This has not affected our camping habit yet... other then maybe eliminating next weekend but we have 4 days camping at Memorial day.

I'll get it. I have not had a machine beat me yet... been some bloody battles, but in time (and money...) I have so far always overcome.

John

[Jim-Bev-2363]

john, I'm sure you'll solve the problems as they come, one at a time.

I use the marine Sta-Bil, one ounce per five gallons of new fuel added. It is supposed to not only control moisture but fuel deposits. Time will tell if it does anything but make me feel better about doing something.

Good luck with it and look forward to the 'rest of the story'.

[Hematite]

Hi JohnB! Sorry to hear that you are having those problems. I think that the best cleaner available is the Chevron Techron and usually 2 tanks with Techron will definitely minimize problems, at least that's what I hear. I'm glad that OTC tooled worked well for you. I understand that it makes all the difference in doing this job, thanks to the very limited clearances involved and the fact that it doesn't wobble because it's one piece.

I bought the OTC tool and the Lisle shell remover after the last time this topic was discussed. Gonna need it sooner or later. I was under the impression that the Lisle tool will extract the shell with the porcelain by pushing the porcelain forward enough to get threads on the shell.

Your observation is correct that the plugs really don't reliably last more than 75K miles. I did read, however, that someone refused to change the plugs until the engine misfired at 109K miles and then did the Techron and removed all the plugs intact. Go figure.

I wish you the best in finishing this job. Use the nickel anti sieze on the shield but don't get it on the electrode or you'll have misfiring as a result. And definitely change your engine oil and filter after you warm up the engine when the job is done.

It seems that when Ford farms out design or manufacturing is when they have a problem. Ford wanted a world class head design on their 5.4-3 valve engine and farmed the design out to Honeywell-Autolite. The head design IS a masterpiece and even has a purpose designed plug for it. Of course, nobody considered actually having to remove the plug at some time in the future! Thank you Honeywell- Autolite!

[Jim-Bev-2363]

They should have had someone design a lifetime plug.