Water heater and A/C?

[frank_a]

Don't mind me John, spent too many years in WY. Double D must be a ranch name I remembered...

Okay, I get it at least partly now. I needed to find better pics, and have. I will get these ones you suggest and figure it out!

How about the converter? Should it be unhooked when I put the new box in?

Sorry to be kind of dense here, but this is all new to me. I have done a bunch of residential wiring, maybe that's why.

Thanks again,

Frank

[JohnB]

Frank,

No worries on the Double D…LOL Was just pointing it out so you do not ask someone in the store for a Double D breaker and they say no right off the bat…

The converter, think of the converter as a battery charger and a 12 VDC power supply. With your older one, it is more battery charger but it “converts” 120 VAC into a supply of 12 VDC to run the camper 12 volts systems.

When you unhook the 120 VAC shore power the converter which is fed by it looses it’s power on the AC side. The 12 volts side “may” still be live IF the battery is still hooked up. If you unhook the battery, which may or may not be at this point, then the camper will be without any type of power unless by strange chance you are still plugged into the truck by the 7 wire cord. So if you want all power gone, unplug the battery too and the 7 wire cord from the truck when you pull the 120 VAC cord.

There is another thing to check and doctor up in this conversion. Since you are upgrading from a 15 amp service to a 30 amp service the ground wire that goes from the camper frame up to the power box needs to be looked at and potentially upsized.

This pic of your old one shows a grayish looking wire off the ground buss strip heading out and down the bottom of the box going “somewhere”


That “might” be a piece of solid aluminum wire to the camper frame. Normally the ground is a piece of copper, at least in this day. Follow that wire and report back where it is going. There are some allowances for size of ground wire per service size, but using a piece of no 10 awg for your 30 amp service will be fully rated. They may allow a piece of no 12 awg but that would need to be read up on. Maybe Mainah remembers on this size circuit. This ground needs to be in place as part of the shock prevention dealing with the 120 VAC side of the camper.

When you wire up the new 30 amp/20 amp breaker do you understand the wiring it backwards so to speak? The power cord end goes on the normal outpsut end of the breaker. And then the 10 awg jumper wire up top between the 2 big infeed lugs? This new setup will wire up is a little different then your existing setup.

Any questions, just ask. Someone will help. We are out camping this weekend but back on Tuesday

John

PS. Looking at your older panel the AC neutral was just dangling in there and a piece cof corragate holding it away from the side of the box. That is not right if I see the pics right. Do not reproduce that same bad thing. Your new one the AC neutral is fixed and make sure to screw the grounding buss par down to the box.

[frank_a]

The grayish wire is sheathed John, I can tell you that. I don't know if it's aluminum or not. Where would I look for it if it's a ground, directly underneath on the steel trailer frame? Busy day today and meetings tonight, so can't really check it out till tomorrow. Was home last 3 days, made it easy to run out & check stuff.

"When you wire up the new 30 amp/20 amp breaker do you understand the wiring it backwards so to speak? The power cord end goes on the normal output end of the breaker. And then the 10 awg jumper wire up top between the 2 big infeed lugs? This new setup will wire up is a little different then your existing setup." This is a bit confusing, but I need to order these breakers so I have them in hand and can see what the deal is.

The AC neutral buss bar is not "dangling". It is a black plastic right angle bracket screwed into the very back of the frame that holds stiffly in place. I know - I tired moving it before I noticed it was attached. You can see the triangular right angle black plastic holding it, but not the screw in the pic. That should be fine to just remove and use again shouldn't it? The ground buss bar does look loose but I don't think it is either.

Thanks!

Frank

[mainah]

Your old box had the power going right to the buss bar. That's OK but it's better to relay on your own breaker then the camp grounds. The way your old one was set up you could not have turned the power off from inside your camper to the load center. The normal method is the output (the side with the terminals) is the load side but the breakers will work both ways it does not matter so the proper way to wire the camper load center is to put your power cord black wire on the terminal side of a 30 amp breaker and back feed the breaker panel. The white neutral wire will be wired to the isolated neutral buss bar. Usually the converter black wire is also landed under the same terminals as the power cord so when it's plugged in you have 12 volt power and a battery charger and the ability to turn every thing else off. The frame ground usually has a #10 copper wire going from the frame to the ground buss bar inside of the load center you may find a white wire (12 volt wire) landed under the same frame ground not to be confused with the 120 volt white wire. Proper high voltage wiring code any color but white, green or bare copper is hot. You'll need an SJ cord with #10 wires and a 30 amp RV plug I would guess the RV stores have the entire assembly with maybe a 20' cord. I'll tell you up front it will be expensive.

[JohnB]

Frank,

If we still have you confused on the words, when the new breaker comes, put it in the box and take a pic of it and post. We can then down load the pic, and draw on it .

Both mainh and I are saying the same thing, just using different words but we are from the industry so we speak the same lingo and it may not come across OK.

Post the pic and we will draw on it. Pics say all the words we can dream up.

The frame ground would most likely be right under the camper near the old breaker box where ever the power cord come into the camper. It is cheaper to take the shortest route. See mine. The bare copper is the factory one, I added the new green one from the new converter I installed.


In the event you do not have a frame ground to the breaker box, that should be added. No 10 copper. Try and trace out the gray wire.

To get a power cord, I lucked out Home Depot had a drop of about 45 feet of 3 conductor no 8 awg SOOW cord. $0.15/foot. I bought all of it. They wanted to clearance it so I cleared it. The W on the end is for water resistant. Need to look for that if you are buying just raw cord by the foot.

I have found it cheaper to actually by a 25 foot 30 amp RV extension cord. It has a mold on plug and recept on the other end. Just cut off the end you do not need and use that cord. Wal-Mart has them in their mini RV supply shelf. Just read the printing on the cord and that is says , all copper, no 10 awg and is weather resistance rated. It may even have a UL on it.

See this post. It may help on some of this grounding stuff

http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...ock-11647.html

John

[JohnB]

Frank,

See if this helps. This is my T310 before I ever upgraded the converter



Now zoomed in. Look at the 30 amp breaker. It is flipped off in this pic. See the thick black wire and follow it to the hole in the back of the panel. There is a thick green and white with it. That is the incoming shore power cord.

The main power cord hot (black) goes to the terminal side of that 30 amp breaker. In my case it powers up the aluminum buss bar in the back to feed the other breakers. Your new Sq D box does not have that buss bar it has wire lugs. Just create a 10 awg jumper between those top 2 lugs to power your other 15 amp breaker.

[frank_a]

Thanks mainah!

I take it this is what I need?

Cord: Amazon.com: RV Power Cord 25 Foot 30 Amp Extension Cord - FREE SHIPPING: Home Improvement

30 amp RV plug: Amazon.com: Leviton 7313 30 Amp, 125 Volt, NEMA Tt-30R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mounting Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, For Recreational Vehicles, Side Wired, Steel Strap, Black: Home Improvement

I think I got what you're saying, but no worries right now, gotta order the breakers anyways. What I figure is the one breaker I have now has two lines combined going to it, and with the mini breaker, each line can go to one side of the new mini breaker?

Then for the 30/20 mini breaker, what would the 30 amp side be good for? 20 amp for the A/C right?

Takes me a bit on the uptake, but I assume "mainah" is from ME? My wife's family (Eatons & Weeds mostly) is from Little Deer Isle and Bucksport, but mostly all gone now except for 2nd cousins and the like. We used to go up there about every other year. One of Gail's brothers just bought a place on Long Lake, so we'll be going up more often again, maybe later this year.

By the way, John wanted to know what our frig was rated. Does this pic do?

Thanks again for the help, and enjoy your day sir!

Frank

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by frank_a

I take it this is what I need?

Cord: Amazon.com: RV Power Cord 25 Foot 30 Amp Extension Cord - FREE SHIPPING: Home Improvement

30 amp RV plug: Amazon.com: Leviton 7313 30 Amp, 125 Volt, NEMA Tt-30R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mounting Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, For Recreational Vehicles, Side Wired, Steel Strap, Black: Home Improvement

That cord will work. As FYI, Wal-Mart may (or may not) have it a few dollars cheaper and no freight.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Road-Power-30-Amp-RV-Extension-Cord-30/16817354


The receptacle you pointed to is the correct one if you are adding this to your house to plug into.

I think I got what you're saying, but no worries right now, gotta order the breakers anyways. What I figure is the one breaker I have now has two lines combined going to it, and with the mini breaker, each line can go to one side of the new mini breaker?

Yes, you can split up the loads from your existing camper wiring setup that combine 2 wire to one terminal into each on it's own circuit. That is OK to do. It woiuld be good to figure out what is actually on those 2 circuits.

Then for the 30/20 mini breaker, what would the 30 amp side be good for? 20 amp for the A/C right?

The 30 amp side is used as a main disconnect switch inside the camper and to add another layer of protection to limit the power draw in the camper to only 30 amps. The new shore line cord you are buying will have the black wire of that cord go direct to the screw terminal on the 30 amp breaker. This 30 amp breaker is also important as in some campgrounds you need to use a 50 amp to 30 amp adapter at the campground power post. In this situation the 30 amp breaker in the camper protects the wiring inside the camper. It also provides a way to disconnect all power in the camper.

By the way, John wanted to know what our frig was rated. Does this pic do?

Frank...... that fridge is an energy hog for a camper. That little tag says your fridge when it is running at full load is consuming 12.5 of the entire 15 amp supply you had. Leaving a whopping 2.5 amps for everything else including the converter. For sure split up those 2 wires onto 15 amp single breakers if you intend to keep using that fridge. And if you do, the electric side of the HW heater will not be an option as the dorm fridge is consuming too much of the supply even on the new 30 amp setup.

Appliances do not always run at full load amps but they can depending on conditions.

That dorm fridge puts you in a situation where you cannot use the wall outlets in the camper for very much load. A microwave, even a small one, odds are will trip the circuit. A coffee pot might, a toaster odds are high will. A hair dryer, forget it.

If you want to keep the fridge, and you want some level of getting some capacity back from your wall outlets, then see if you can run a dedicated line from the fridge back your new breaker box and put the fridge on it’s own breaker.

Good luck and hope this helps

John

[frank_a]

John, is my original Gould box at two space 4 circuit box? Or anyone else know? It's down the page a bit here: http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...c-13626-2.html

I found out this morning that Murray replaces Gould breakers? They have tandem Murray breakers at Lowes, but I didn't want to buy any till I know. Maybe I'll run the pic off and go in and ask. I assume someone else has run into this with the older Sunlines?

I haven't measured it up yet, but the closet above where the power panel is has depth and lots of space. Maybe I should get the smallest 100 amp residential box I can and just reposition it. Only thing is it takes up closet space, and a bunch of time to do. Where the box is now can only handle 3" of depth, which the new Square D box I got fits, but only just barely on length.

Interesting info on the fridge. I will try and figure out what circuit that is on and give it one of its own, but then I only have one other 15 amp circuit, a 20 amp for the A/C and 30 for main. Very limited in today's age of microwaves, coffee pots, toasters, etc. We plan on replacing it in 2013 with a propane unit, but not this year. Guess we'll just use an ice box. Also, not going for an electric/propane water heater, just a direct spark ignition propane one that has a remote switch that electronically controls the water heater from inside, like this: Suburban 6 Gallon Water Heater SW6D - $254.99

Hopefully tomorrow I can check out the ground thing, read your earth ground post again (and again, and again...), get out the multimeter I got, see if I can figure it out. I also need to check out the wiring connection up front, probably replace the 7 pole connector (old and places open to the elements), remove (if I can) the 4 pole connector wired in there, remove everything on the front of the trailer frame, sand it, clean it and hit it with rattle can brown, re-assemble. Do the same thing on the rear bumper/waste tube holder. Over time, get this baby looking new, or at least newer!

Thanks for all the help.

Frank

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Frank, As I tried to say some time back, your Gould is the same as the Double D as much as number of lines goes and that you could get breakers to fit it. It is a two breaker box if you use standard breakers. It is a four breaker box if you use the mini breakers.

When looking for space you can also turn the breaker box in different positions. Just as breakers don't know if they are campers of houses, they don't know if they are laying on their side or not. The only restriction is your ability to reach the breakers and read which one is for what.

You could even install both boxes. By using mini breakers and having two mains you could have six circuits. Simply size your wires according to loads to be safe.

[frank_a]

Oh man, that is such a great idea Jim, use both the Gould and new Square D boxes, problem solved! Hmm, something new to think about and figure out...

I do believe giving the energy hog nature of the electric frig that we will really need to allocate some bucks for a propane frig. I'd really like to be able to camp self contained when possible, or required. Maybe I'll push that ahead of the A/C if I can get the little woman to agree.

Thanks!

Frank

[JohnB]

Hi Frank,

As you have now realized, yes the Gould box with 2 slots can be made to have 4 circuit breakers in it the same new Square D can if you can find a single slot tandem breaker to fit it.

As for adding both boxes, I do not know if you really need to go that far and even if you do it will not buy you that much. Here is an option for you to think through.

Start with either the Gould or the Square D box. Obtain if you can the following.

A 1 slot, tandem 20amp & 30 Amp breaker and a 1 slot, tandem 15 amp & 15 amp breaker. This is 4 breakers uses 2 single slots.

The 30 amp is for the incoming supply line from the shower power cord.

The 20 amp is dedicated to the roof AC unit.

1, 15 amp to feed your existing 120 VAC wiring in the camper as it exists today. This is all the wall plugs, and the converter what ever is on the 1, 15 amp breaker now except the fridge.

1, 15 amp new line to feed a new receptacle placed near the energy hog fridge. For the present time until the gas fridge comes along this is dedicated to the fridge. Locate this new receptacle in the galley area so it will be convenient to use for the galley. In the future when the new gas fridge comes along this dedicated 15 amp wall outlet then can be used for a toaster, a coffee pot and electric frying pan etc.

If you do cool weather camping and want a small electric heater you can run a no. 12 awg 20 amp rated extension cord from the power post into the camper to run just the heater. We do this all the time.

That gives you 4 circuit breakers, and 3 more balanced circuits against your 30 amp supply for minimal spending. Remember you only have 30 amps to start with. Going to 2 breaker boxes and creating the ability of 7 circuits will not gain you a lot better performance as you only have 30 amps to start with.

You have to watch out what you plug in that creates heat. A toaster, a hair dryer, ….etc. you can only plug in and use 1 extra heat producing device at 1 time. All of us have to watch this same thing.

Also avoid the 100 amp home service box. While you get more breaker slots but the main power lugs are massive against your little no. 10 wire. Not good, the box is too big.

Hope this helps as you sort through this

John

PS. If your wife is like mine, fix the AC first, then the fridge. During hot summer months there is no escape from the heat and being able to cool down and sleep at night will buy you more brownie points then having a gas only fridge that the energy hog managed right could have done....

[frank_a]

If I can use the old Gould box John, why bother with the Square D if I'm only gonna use one box? It saves me a lot of time & trouble! I got a Murray tandem 15 amp breaker at Home Depot today and will see if I can replace the single pole one I have now. If that works, then I need a 30/20 Murray, so need to find one. Home Depot didn't have one, maybe Lowe's does, or I'll get on on-line this weekend.

You're probably right to go with the A/C for the wife's sake. Or my sake... hmmmm... A/C & hot water should run about $1100/1200 or so. That makes sense to me.

Any idea how much power a direct spark ignition propane water heater with a remote switch that electronically controls the water heater from inside would take for power, or how that works? Would it need a receptacle to plug into, or just need a bit of power from the battery, or what?

Busy day here, gotta get back at it. Thanks again for the help!

Frank

[frank_a]

According to my new digital brake controller and my "seat-of-the-pants" feel in the truck, the brakes are working. I just ordered a new Bargman so hope that gets here before we take off next weekend. That will tell me whether the brakes really work or not right in my own driveway. Screwing around with the brakes today showed clearly that the left side shoes are new, the right side not-so-new. I cleaned everything up well, repacked the bearings and got everything back together before doing some road testing. Got other projects that need my attention so back later...

Frank

[mainah]

Originally Posted by frank_a

Thanks mainah!

I take it this is what I need?

Cord: Amazon.com: RV Power Cord 25 Foot 30 Amp Extension Cord - FREE SHIPPING: Home Improvement

30 amp RV plug: Amazon.com: Leviton 7313 30 Amp, 125 Volt, NEMA Tt-30R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mounting Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, For Recreational Vehicles, Side Wired, Steel Strap, Black: Home Improvement

I think I got what you're saying, but no worries right now, gotta order the breakers anyways. What I figure is the one breaker I have now has two lines combined going to it, and with the mini breaker, each line can go to one side of the new mini breaker?

Then for the 30/20 mini breaker, what would the 30 amp side be good for? 20 amp for the A/C right?

Takes me a bit on the uptake, but I assume "mainah" is from ME? My wife's family (Eatons & Weeds mostly) is from Little Deer Isle and Bucksport, but mostly all gone now except for 2nd cousins and the like. We used to go up there about every other year. One of Gail's brothers just bought a place on Long Lake, so we'll be going up more often again, maybe later this year.

By the way, John wanted to know what our frig was rated. Does this pic do?

Thanks again for the help, and enjoy your day sir!

Frank

Yes I'm in Maine I used to own a house on Long Lake (Bridgton I think there is more then one Long Lake) I live in Brownfield (15 miles to the west of Bridgton) on 80 acres with 1,800 feet on the Saco river. If your looking for a place to camp when you come to Maine check out Woodland Acres web site I'm retired and do electrical work for them easy commute only 1/2 mile.

[frank_a]

That's the same Long Lake as my brother-in-law just bought a place on mainah. We probably won't be camping up Maine way, at least around there, as their waterfront home is a big place and we have an open invite. We would probably bring our classic speedboat up for fun, tool around on the lake.

I haven't got into that old Gould box yet, but a guy at Home Depot told me Murray replaces Gould, and sold me a tandem 15/15. I may get at it later today, but other than that, I have very little left to do to go camping next weekend. If that 15/15 Murray does work, then I need to find a Murray 30/20 if I can.

Happy Memorial Day!

Frank

[Jim-Bev-2363]

That is one crooked river.

[frank_a]

As long as it flows downhill...