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Old 04-14-2011, 01:56 PM   #21
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Here is a pic of my bypass set up in the '06 T-2499:

I will keep looking to see if I have anymore. I do know that mine valves were NOT on the outside of the tank, they were on the floor
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:08 PM   #22
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It looks like all 3 are open in the picture and no check valve at the output of the water heater at the top so water would be flowing into and out of the tank and some would be bypassing it as well. If I recall, turning the top and bottom valves 90 degrees would cut off water into the tank at the bottom and prevent the bypass from sending water into the top outlet pipe. To "dewinterize" turn the top and bottom valve to the position shown in the picture and turn the middle valve 90 degrees from the current picture.

I recall Steve posted a picture of his some time back and had a good explaination.

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Old 04-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #23
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I found a thread that has the water heater drain by both John and Kitty.

http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f6...ion-10105.html

Kitty's drain



John's Drain

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Old 04-14-2011, 07:34 PM   #24
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John B thanks for uploading the photo for me to this post. Yes I would appreciate instructions on how to include a photo in a post as directions I tried to follow didn't work. Can I delete this wretched under-cabinet mare's nest from my ALBUMS setion as fellow members must think I'm nuts?! So when does this hose/faucet get attached so that you don't experience pressurized water from the drain hole into your...shoe? I can see the worth of this device...allowing one to control the amount of pressure being released. Or is it hooked up once and remains stowed in the w/h compartment? If so,in those close quarters, how do you keep the hose from getting too hot and perhaps catching fire?

So Gene, what is the funtion of the middle valve? Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm shootin' in the dark, but isn't the purpose of the bypass system to keep water from flowing into the water tank? If so, wouldn't the valves at top and bottom be valves that shunted the water one way or the other, either to the tank or through the connecting middle line, and the one in the middle simply be an open or close valve that would either allow the water to flow through the bypass or not? I can't understand why it would have been put in the line though as it seem superfluous if the water is shunted through or away from the middle pipe by the other two valves.

I await further enlightenment. Thanks friends!
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:49 PM   #25
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As best as I can figure, the top and bottom valves just stop the water from entering the tank. The middle valve lets it flow through the bypass pipe from the cold lines to the hot lines to circulate antifreeze to the hot faucets and associated lines but no pink stuff in the water heater.

I could be wrong on exactly how those 2 valves at the top and bottom work and if so hopefully someone will correct me.

Oh yes ... the drain faucet stays connected all the time and is stowed in the heater. Since nothing is flowing out it should not get too hot.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:28 AM   #26
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Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Hot Water Heater Bypass Information
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:44 AM   #27
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I cannot tell from where which way your turn the knob to direct the flow. Maybe someone reconigies that brand and know. OR you have to do the flip to figure out which way to turn the hanlde to get the water directed right.
I don't think that is a bypass "kit" from a manufacturer. It more looks like a previous owner created it from scratch, at least that is how it looks to me.

My guess is that the top and/or bottom valves are installed backwards necessitating the valve in the center to block flow when the WH is not bypassed.

The valves should be 1/4 turn valves and the "point" of the oval handle should show the direction of flow if properly installed. If they are not quarter-turn valves, that may explain the addition of the third valve in the center.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
So Gene, what is the funtion of the middle valve? Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm shootin' in the dark, but isn't the purpose of the bypass system to keep water from flowing into the water tank? If so, wouldn't the valves at top and bottom be valves that shunted the water one way or the other, either to the tank or through the connecting middle line, and the one in the middle simply be an open or close valve that would either allow the water to flow through the bypass or not? I can't understand why it would have been put in the line though as it seem superfluous if the water is shunted through or away from the middle pipe by the other two valves.
I agree with Steve, that this is probably homemade. I had a bypass on a water softener that used tees instead of valves to make up the bypass. It had three valves, one each between the tee and the softener, and one in the bypass line. Using valves, instead of tees, eliminates the need for the valve in the bypass line. So, to answer your function question, it probably isn't necessary and can be left open.

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Old 04-15-2011, 07:08 AM   #29
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So...what's the verdict here friends... since we don't really know how these valves function, our best bet could be wrong. I am of the opinion that it is better to let sleeping dogs lie or replace this bypass rig with something that we know how it functions????? My thinking is that the photo shows the position of the valves when the water heater is NOT bypassed. Logic then dictates that to bypass it, the valves have to be turned the opposite of what they are now....with the exception of the valve in the middle, for which we have yet to figure out a function.

But here's a question...in the open position...as shown, how would the positioning of the middle valve, open, thus allowing water to flow between the hot output and cold input, effect the water flow out of the tank ? Wouldn't it mix with the hot water out thus casuing tepid water at best ? I can't imagine that it would do this though because for a brief time prior to replacing the w/h the system worked...producing hot and cold water to bathroom and galley.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:30 AM   #30
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Looking at the way the plumbing gets to the WH beyond the bypass, I think you could fix what you already have and just replace the center valve with a straight section of pipe.

The materials used there are real decent parts and can easily be taken apart and reassembled.

My suspicion is that one (or possibly both) of the valves is simply installed backward and just needs to be turned around for the bypass to function properly.

That write-up that has already been referenced has some very good pictures and explanations and should be a good guide for you to fix this.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
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But here's a question...in the open position...as shown, how would the positioning of the middle valve, open, thus allowing water to flow between the hot output and cold input, effect the water flow out of the tank ? Wouldn't it mix with the hot water out thus casuing tepid water at best ? I can't imagine that it would do this though because for a brief time prior to replacing the w/h the system worked...producing hot and cold water to bathroom and galley.
You are right. If the in and out valves are incorrectly installed, opening the center valve could cause that back flow as you describe. If the in and out valves are correctly installed and properly positioned, that third center valve is of no use as there is no flow in or out of the bypass pipe in summer mode.

The bottom line is cold water from the water source, either city water or fresh water tank and on-board pump. In one position, the valve closes off the bypass and allows cold water into the heater. Turning the valve should divert all flow up the bypass pipe and out into the hot water lines.

The top pipe is the hot water out line. In one position, the valve is supposed to block the flow from the bypass pipe, but allow full flow from the heater out to the trailer. Flipping that valve should block flow from the heater, but allow flow from the bypass pipe out to the hot water lines in the trailer.

The valves both have to be set the same for the bypass to completely remove the heater from the system so that it can be drained for the winter. On mine, after I figured out which position each valve needed to be in for either summer or winter, I used a "Sharpie" and marked the pipes and valves.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:24 PM   #32
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So since no valves have been touched, and the water heater worked when hooked up before. Theoretically everything is correct for "summer" operation as shown in the picture. And....to winterize, I would only need to turn the top and the bottom valves to their opposite positions and leave the middle valve alone, and I would isolate the water heater.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:35 PM   #33
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Hi Drake

You mentioned taking out what you have and replacing, I’ll throw this out, if it does note leak, leave it in and figure out how the knobs and valves work.

The bottom and top valves are what they call, 3 way valves. They have 3 ports on them and they are a selector valve. There is 1 common port and 2 selector ports.

Since the heater had water flowing thru it at one time since you owned it they must of partly hooked up something right. If it will bypass, is still to be proven.

If, on the bottom valve the “common” port is the upstream port where the cold water comes in, the water flow is selected to go into the heater or up the bypass pipe. You just have to figure out how that valve works.

The top valve most likely has the common port downstream of the by pass or known as the pipe that is heading to the faucet. Then the selector ports are again the heater top discharge pipe and the bypass.

If the prior owner installed it with thought, that would be the way to do it.. Worst is you take the valve out and flip it around so it works that way. No need to buy new. And like Steve said, mark the handles which way they are suppose to go.

If you have to, take a fitting off the end and shine flash light in and look which way the flow goes. You should see the hole inside.

Now the mysterious on/off 2 way valve in the bypass leg. Well I have a hypothesis what that “might” be for. I see 3 possibilities.

  • The prior owner did not want to get burnt with the 140 F water the Atwood can give. So they did not totally switch the lower 3 way valve and left part of it cracked so water would flow up the bypass pipe and most would go in the heater. They then throttled the on/off bypass valve in the bypass leg to limit the mixing action until they got it just right. They are basically mixing a little cold with the hot when the sink faucet opens up.

  • What ever they did with it, didn’t work out and they left it in place to give a bunch of future Sunline Owner Club members a bunch to talk about not being able to figure the thing out…. Maybe they had a vision? LOL

For a bypass setup the valve in the middle has no value unless the bottom valve leaks cold water to the by pass since it might not be a total sealed shutoff switching valve. If they put the on/off valve in then they can shut off the bypass tube and no mixing is occurring. If it does not leak, leave the valve in. It might not do something or it just might…

OK now to the drain hose. You mentioned it getting hot and catching fire. Well the fire part is not going to happen as least from the hot water point of view. If the unit ever gets to 212 F the safety relieve valve is going to pop off as you have steam genny then in the heater and bigger problems then the hose….. To have heat high enough to start a fire of that hose it is also going to melt the plastic pipe in your camper leading into and out of the heater and you know that doesn’t happen. You need enough heat to ignite a fire and it is up in the many hundreds/thousands of degrees. Mack may be able to tell us. I "thought" wood starts to burn at 600 deg F.


My hose is rated at 150psi and hot potable water. So I’m covered. You do need to make sure it is pressure and temp rated. The hose fills with the 1st cold water that comes into the heater and since there is no flow thru it under normal conditions the hose only gets warm by the tank fitting. The hose is only slight warm to cold up by the valve.

See here how it stores on mine.




Good luck

John
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:41 AM   #34
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I would like to make a guess about the valve setup. If the top and bottom valves simply divert water from the by-pass line to the heater then the third valve could simply be a shutoff valve. The bottom valve has the water source line going into it. Could that be from the city water supply or the onboard pump. The top valve allows water to flow from the heater to the house system or from the bypass to the house system. If these two valves are put in the by-pass position, isolating the heater, the valve in the by-pass line will stop water flow when closed and allow full house shutdown. I don't know why it was done this way since the water supply can simply be turn off outside the TT. Maybe it would allow better control of water lines for winterizing if draining the sytem instead of filling with antifreeze. Maybe.

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Old 04-16-2011, 07:50 AM   #35
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I sure appreciate the time and thoughtfulness of you guys in taking on this problem.

I'm going to replace the regulator, turn her on and see if the w/h works. If not, I'm at a loss as to explain the problem regarding the lack of burner fire! Although here is a question. If you disconnect your tanks for the winter and take them inside, which I did, ( I was careful to cap the main gas line so nothing could get in it) when you hook them back up in the spring, is there air in the lines that should be purged prior to using the lp systems?

I am going to leave the plumbing problem situation as is until (if, when)I get the burner problem fixed...one step at a time. Then, before I winterize this fall, I will revisit this thread, apply the wisdom you have given and perhaps seek further wisdom from you wonderful responders.

JohnB, I wasn't worried about heated water catching the hose on fire, but rather the heat/flame from the pilot/burner port and/or exhaust port in the w/h compartment melting the hose. The hose running from the pressure relief valve runs right close to the pilot/burner port as does the drain hose. I do really find what you have done, clever as the dickens though, as all water is shunted away from the electrical, and gas components.

Thanks again!
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:36 AM   #36
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I'm going to replace the regulator, turn her on and see if the w/h works. If not, I'm at a loss as to explain the problem regarding the lack of burner fire! Although here is a question. If you disconnect your tanks for the winter and take them inside, which I did, ( I was careful to cap the main gas line so nothing could get in it) when you hook them back up in the spring, is there air in the lines that should be purged prior to using the lp systems?
You may not need to replace that regulator unless you know for sure that it is the problem. Read on for why.

Yes, the lines are full of regular air anytime after you disconnect a tank. More correctly, there is nothing to keep propane in the lines when you disconnect a tank so it just dissipates.

I have found the easiest way to get the lines back to normal is to first fire up a burner on the stove. That probably gets a minimum of 50% of the system back to propane. Turning the burner valve on should result in a hissing sound as the propane pushes the air out. I usually use a long butane lighter and just hold it to the burner until it lights. Once one lights, I fire up the other burners to further purge the system.

Depending on the location of the water heater in relation to the tanks and the stove, it may take a number of tries to get the WH to fire up. If it's an auto-ignition model, you're stuck with just sitting there and recycling the switch until it lights but it will be a lot less cycles if you get the stove going first. If you have an older manual model, you can just hold down the pilot button until you smell the gas.

The same will hold true for gas fridges and for the gas heaters.

If you can't get anything to fire up, then the regulator may well be the culprit, but the above procedure holds true for any time a tank is disconnected unless you have the more expensive changeover regulator that holds pressure in the system when an empty tank is disconnected.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
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I'm going to replace the regulator, turn her on and see if the w/h works. If not, I'm at a loss as to explain the problem regarding the lack of burner fire! Although here is a question.

If you disconnect your tanks for the winter and take them inside, which I did, ( I was careful to cap the main gas line so nothing could get in it) when you hook them back up in the spring, is there air in the lines that should be purged prior to using the lp systems?


snip...
JohnB, I wasn't worried about heated water catching the hose on fire, but rather the heat/flame from the pilot/burner port and/or exhaust port in the w/h compartment melting the hose. The hose running from the pressure relief valve runs right close to the pilot/burner port as does the drain hose. I do really find what you have done, clever as the dickens though, as all water is shunted away from the electrical, and gas components.

Thanks again!
Drake,

The LP line can and will loose gas prime even between camping trips. Even if they pass a LP pressure drop test, weeks of down time can leak out the LP to needing a purge once again.

Now how to purge, each camper is a little different depending on where the last appliance is on the main LP line.

You can use the stove top with a butane lighter to purge. Open up a window as it is going to take like forever to purge the air out. Actually it may only be 45 seconds to a minute but it seems like it is forever. Then the main line is purged up to the stove top.

I have found on mine that if I flip the furnace on, it has DSI so it will auto spark and light off once the LP shows up. The furnace is the largest draw LP device and it purges the fastest. By doing that 1st then the stove comes up almost immediately.

The HW heater is the 2nd most gas using system. If you only use it to purge, odds are high it will take several light and shut down on saftey attempts for it to light. Again I do the furnace 1st, then the HW heater will prime most times in 1 to 3 tries and not go out on safety.

The fridge on LP can be a real bugger as it uses so little gas. Do it last. It still may take 3 plus tries and go out on safety once.

So for sure if you unhook in the winter you have to purge. If you do, put a plastic baggie over the ends of the tank hoses and duct tape them on or something. Any kind of dirt can get stuck in those small fitting orifices and create havoc.

If the regulator does not do this, you are going to have to trouble shoot root cause. The is a blockage somewhere. The more known way is to do a pressure test using a water manometer like I showed you earlier or a very high end gas pressure meter. Basically you have to unhook starting at the down stream side of the regulator and see if any gas is coming out. If so then keep going further down stream until you find the problem.

H'mm there is one thing not yet talked about, from the down stream side of the regulator up to the main 1/2" gas pipe, is there a rubber hose? It is common on all newer TT but do not know about yours. Rubber hoses and LP create oil inside the hose. The LP draws the oil out of the rubber. When the oil puddle gets large enough it creates a blockage. If the hose does a large down and then back up and creates a trap effect the oil can block the LP from traveling thru or greatly restrict it. If this is the issue, unhook the hose and make sure the end you are unhooking can go down hill and will drain out on the ground. If you have oil in there and you tip the hose the wrong way you just let it pour into the main gas line and soon it will make it's way into the stove regulator and gas valves creating more havoc. I have this oil problem a lot in the portable gas grill hoses I use on the Weber baby Que and my outdoor stove. There the hose is 8 feet long so lots of rubber to bleed oil out of .


On the HW heater drain hose, where the gas burner goes in is the air inlet pipe. It draws in fresh air there and exhausts out up top. The exhaust area is very hot. The air intake is no where near as hot as flame never touches that area but you do get some heat migration thru convection backwards. Not enough in my case to be concerned about. Remember there are wires in there with insulation on them that melt in the same temps as hoses. Your point is valid you need to watch out what you are doing as if you get anything plastic on the exhaust port area, issues can arise. You can see they have heat shields there to help prevent the heat from getting to the wiring.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Your post has been great as we this has been a good learning post for all including me and we have many folks giving very good input. This is what makes Sunline Owners Club what it is. The best!!!

John

PS on edit: If you have unhooked any gas lines, you should use a leak solution once the system is pressure up to look for fitting gas leaks. Ideally use a gas leak solution as it helps not to corrode the fittings but soapy water solution does work too. This should be done on every gas fitting there is on a routine leak check, especially if you do not do an annual LP pressure drop leak test. That really old main gas pipe can rust. While black iron pipe is gas rated, living exposed under a camper and not being painted is not great. De-rust and paint the pipe and fittings is a good preventive measure.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:08 AM   #38
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Thanks guys...will do the purge....the gas line to the fridge is capped as it has been replaced w/totally electric one. What a wealth of info the soc provides!

re the blockage test... can I unhook the w/h and blow out the line with compressed air?
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:43 AM   #39
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re the blockage test... can I unhook the w/h and blow out the line with compressed air?
Drake

You can use compressed air, BUT you have to take the right precautions or else you are going to have big time problems.

The main sch 40 1/2" black iron gas pipe is not an issue. The copper tubing feeders are not an issue.

Every gas valve,stove regulator and rubber hose down stream of the main tank regulator, "is" a problem. Those devices are only rated for 1/2 a psi except the rubber hose it sometimes is 5 psi but that is not much either

To use compressed air to blow out the system you need to unhook each device feed line from the appliance. If not you can blow out the diaphragm in the valve.

The best way to blow out the lines for "stuff" is to unhook the rubber hose if you have one after the main tank regulator where it screws on the 1/2" black iron pipe. Put the air nozzle on the 1/2 pipe, not the hose.

Unhook all gas feeder lines to every device in the camper. You may want to cap off, tape off, the lines leaving only 1 open. Then blow out thru the 1st feeder tube in the line. Then cap that one off and unplug the next one and blow out. Then the 3rd one etc. Basically you are blowing all the stuff in sequence to the last feeder line and then out.

A heads up, getting to the fitting in the furnace is a bear of a job. It might be better to just unhook the copper feeder tube from the main truck line. Getting that furnace fitting back on one can consume a lot of time and frustration to not cross thread it putting it back on. There is not a lot of room to work inside the furnace to put your fingers in to start the turning the nut while holding the feeder tube up against the fitting. If you have 2 people, one inside and one out, then it is not so bad. I did it myself and you are outside putting the nut on and the tube is inside many times.. I can't reach thru the camper...

Good luck

John
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:52 PM   #40
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Location: Virginia
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JohnB

Right you are...yes I thought there might be a problem if I tried to blow through the various components along the way. Thanks for the "blow by blow" description!

Re the furnace....yeah....uhhh.... that's a whole 'nother issue...sounds like a bear and three wildcats fighting when it turns on....probably the fan motor bearing or some critter built a nest around the squirrel cage fan ( maybe a squirrel???)where he shouldn't have...but it does heat. I have it on my to-do list....oh god does it ever end...to pull the furnace and take a look. The furnace is not a component I'm worried about though, as little electric space heaters in the trailer take the chill off nicely, and we only use the heaters once or twice in the early spring or late fall...so this is WAY down on the to-do list.
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