Major smell problem

[mainah]

The traps dry out if there has been no water down them for awhile once they are dry they no longer block off the drain from smells from the tank. If you don't use the sink often
you can pour water down it to fill the trap then some cooking oil to keep the water from evaporating.

[JohnB]

The metal snake you have, by the looks from the pic, is too rigid to go around the sharp bends of the drain trap. That style is made heavy and thick so it is still a level of being rigid when extended 20 some feet long in a pipe. They do make short metal flexible ones but the flexy plastic one you have will do the trick too for short distances.

If you are 2 feet down into the piping and nothing is coming back up, then you are past the camper area and the traps are clear.

Mainah mentioned the drying out of the traps, a trap drying out will not happen quick but going a few weeks in dry temperatures is possible. 1 to 2 quarts of water poured down the drains will re-prime them as needed.

You have done a lot to help rectify this smell issue and still no luck.

Can you recap the latest events, what you have done and how you are using all the plumbing? That might trigger something missed.

There is one topic I do not recall if we talked about. The foam seal ring on the bottom of the toilet, if this was replaced, please talk about this. I had a camping buddy with a new Jayco and his plastic toilet kept flexing so much the foam seal would not keep the toilet base sealed to the pipe flange. He had a heck of a time sorting this one out but finally did.

Hope this helps

John

[mainah]

I did have an issue with a toilet it's self, the inside was causing the smell I replaced the gasket that did not help eventually I removed the toilet turned it up side down and pressure washed it then finished up with chlorine. Frankly the design leaves a lot to be desired.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

One last thought...... Did you add underpinning to your camper? Maybe somehow the odors from underneath the camper are being forced to drift up inside. Natural openings such as those around openings in the lower vapor barrier and pipe/wiring openings in the floor could be how/where the odor rises. Every building needs ventilation from the "basement". Letting fresh air circulate below helps control moisture and odor buildup. ...... A real puzzle for sure.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Looking at your pictures of your camper I see the tarp on the roof. Could it have blown over the vent?


The real last thought, LOL!

[noralee]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

One last thought...... Did you add underpinning to your camper? Maybe somehow the odors from underneath the camper are being forced to drift up inside. Natural openings such as those around openings in the lower vapor barrier and pipe/wiring openings in the floor could be how/where the odor rises. Every building needs ventilation from the "basement". Letting fresh air circulate below helps control moisture and odor buildup. ...... A real puzzle for sure.

jim-bev, underpinning wouldn't be a problem as there is ample circulation, also from your other post, the tarp is no longer on the camper for a while now, and never covered the vent. i welcome all your thoughts for this puzzle.

[noralee]

Originally Posted by JohnB

The metal snake you have, by the looks from the pic, is too rigid to go around the sharp bends of the drain trap. That style is made heavy and thick so it is still a level of being rigid when extended 20 some feet long in a pipe. They do make short metal flexible ones but the flexy plastic one you have will do the trick too for short distances.

If you are 2 feet down into the piping and nothing is coming back up, then you are past the camper area and the traps are clear.

Mainah mentioned the drying out of the traps, a trap drying out will not happen quick but going a few weeks in dry temperatures is possible. 1 to 2 quarts of water poured down the drains will re-prime them as needed.

You have done a lot to help rectify this smell issue and still no luck.

Can you recap the latest events, what you have done and how you are using all the plumbing? That might trigger something missed.

There is one topic I do not recall if we talked about. The foam seal ring on the bottom of the toilet, if this was replaced, please talk about this. I had a camping buddy with a new Jayco and his plastic toilet kept flexing so much the foam seal would not keep the toilet base sealed to the pipe flange. He had a heck of a time sorting this one out but finally did.

Hope this helps

John

Hi John,

I was really hoping that one of these snakes would pull out a mouse or something horrible that would solve this mystery. but no such luck. 2 feet i think was too generous. it was probably more like 18 inches, the length of the yellow snake.

The toilet is new, and the gasket at the base is new and i've never noticed an odor coming from there. don't think that's the problem. if there are any symptoms from a bad gasket that i may not be noticing, please let me know.

Also, the traps are being used regularly so that's not the issue either. i just mentioned something i noticed after 12 or 24 hours or so, but also i don't think is the source.

To recap:
The plumbing: used is the kitchen sink, bathroom sink and shower, and the toilet. the black tank is closed all the time except for dumping. the grey tank is open all the time to the main valve going to the septic tank. (we did extensive testing on that setup and was able to determine that the smell was not coming from the septic tank. on page 2 or 3 i think are all the details where we kept the main valve to septic closed for a while and it had no effect on the odor.)

in the winter, i use the shower inside the camper. and since this is the only time i notice the odor, i believe that the odor is related to the shower use. however, it could also be because in the summer i keep the windows open all the time and there is less water going through (since i'm only using the two sinks and not the shower). so perhaps the odor is still there but lessened and i don't notice. after an inside shower the odor is the most pungent. (i did think maybe there is some adhesive or ? that is being affected by hot water and releasing an odor?) after 12-24 hours from the shower the smell is till present but not as pungent.

to add, i also only use the water heater inside during the winter as well. it's not needed during the summer because the water is already warmed up underground and also warms up in the tank. so i run the water through the hot water tank all summer long without the pilot/propane. not sure if relevant but wanted to be thorough. The water heater is new as well.

Latest events/troubleshooting
when i first noticed this odor last winter i pulled up the shower pan because that seemed to be the origin of the odor. i expected to see mold and funk but it was pristine. no damaged wood, no bad floor, nothing was wrong. (i kick myself for not taking pictures, so if anyone has pics of under the shower pan in a 1350 i'd be grateful if you shared them with me.) To explain as best I can, there was the shower drain that ran to the main drain pipe that leads to the grey tank (pvc now) to the septic tank. at the main drain pipe (where the kitchen and bathroom sink drains also led) there was a hole/opening in the floor where you could see the pipe itself and the sealants and it looked solid. there were no cracks, no moisture when i stuck my fingers in the area. nothing i could find that was damaged. all i noticed was that the smell seemed to be coming from this hole/opening where the main drain pipe was visible in the floor (a factory built in opening/hole, just to be clear, not a random "hole in the floor.") that's why it made the most sense to take the grey tank out and that that would solve this issue. perhaps it is something from the floor space, between the aluminum on the underbelly of the camper and the floor itself? that is what i've been thinking about...and to solve it i'd have to rip the floor up all over the place

Most recently i removed the grey tank. the gasket had gone bad and there was a small collection of water on the top of the tank that had no where to evaporate. it seemed like this and the bad gasket was the cause. unfortunately it has not made a difference now that winter is here again. (i currently have pvc going directly to the main valve then to the septic tank. no problems with that). the tank was otherwise in good condition. after a new valve and pipe connectors it will be ready to reinstall.

the smell is strongest from one area of the camper. the corner where the shower is and the connected area on one side. it should be noted that the shower is in the corner with the kitchen counter to the left and a small cabinet followed by a bench seat with the water heater underneath to the right side. the odor is coming from this floor area, going into the cabinet and bench seat on the right side of the shower pan/bathroom and there is NO odor that goes into the kitchen floor or cabinet area to the left of the bathroom which is unusual. if the source were from the under the floor, you would think that the odor would seep up from any areas where the laminate was not sealed completely to the wall edges. in the backs of the cabinets and under the bench seats this is not the case. there is a small opening where the laminate does not meet the wall pretty much the full perimeter of the camper and the odor would likely seep up from all edges but it does not. is it possible the source of the odor is under the floor and contained to a small corner of the camper only? seems unlikely.

and if it were some kind of dead animal, after 2 years wouldn't the odor fade out? and be worse in the summer from the heat/humidity?

i have also checked the roof vents for obstructions and their seals, snaked the bathroom sink and shower up to 18inches deep and happy campered the kitchen and both bathroom drains until it backed up into the shower. i let this sit for about 30 minutes and some gunk did come out, but still no effect on the odor.

i was not able to check the bottom seals of the black tank vent due to location but if there were a crack or bad seal the odor would be more concentrated toward the kitchen cabinets. and following my nose does not lead me that direction. the odor specifically seems to come from the hole discussed above where all the drains meet at the main drain, which is under the shower pan.

thanks for your continued efforts to solve this mystery.

[Gene]

The floorplan of the 1983 T1350 that may make it easier to visualize what noralee described. This was taken from the brochure uploaded by Sunline Fan (Jon).

[noralee]

Originally Posted by Gene

The floorplan of the 1983 T1350 that may make it easier to visualize what noralee described. This was taken from the brochure uploaded by Sunline Fan (Jon).

thank you gene.

[Janalee]

Noralee..I am familiar with your floorplan..it was actually my first Sunny also..nice "little" unit. So, having said the "little" word, I feel your odor could originate almost anywhere and then find its way to your nose thru any small venting opening. You basically have only a 6'x10' area.. Have you checked real good behind and underneath your range? Could it even be a very small propane leak? How about the fridge area? Don't limit yourself to sewer probs when many other things can smell like that....just suggesting.....Janalee

[mainah]

I think it maybe time to invite an expert in.

[JohnB]

Noralee,

I have been thinking on your problem. Your very good explanation for sure helped.

Unless I mixed a few things up, this smell only seems to show up when you use the shower. Is this correct? During the summer you do not use it but do in the colder months.

Since the shower drain is now hard piped with no gray tank, the trap must be working or sewer gas would come up all the time, and it is not. And we know it is not the gray tank.

So if you can use both sink drains and the toilet and no smell, for a few months doing that and then using the shower once the smell comes up, this may at least rule out the toilet and the sinks.

in the winter, i use the shower inside the camper. and since this is the only time i notice the odor, i believe that the odor is related to the shower use. however, it could also be because in the summer i keep the windows open all the time and there is less water going through (since i'm only using the two sinks and not the shower). so perhaps the odor is still there but lessened and i don't notice. after an inside shower the odor is the most pungent. (i did think maybe there is some adhesive or ? that is being affected by hot water and releasing an odor?) after 12-24 hours from the shower the smell is till present but not as pungent.

to add, i also only use the water heater inside during the winter as well. it's not needed during the summer because the water is already warmed up underground and also warms up in the tank. so i run the water through the hot water tank all summer long without the pilot/propane. not sure if relevant but wanted to be thorough. The water heater is new as well.

At first I thought maybe you have contaminated water stuck in the hot water heater. Contaminated water sitting in a tank like that can for sure stink. BUT, you stated in the summer, you still run the hot faucet just do not turn on the heat. Is this correct? This then should flush the heater and keep the water moving. Is this water going to the sinks at this point or you use it in the shower in the summer?

By process of elimination, this "seems" to point to the water itself coming out of the shower head, OR the water hits something in the shower walls system and it starts the stinking all over again because it is wet. Does this sound right?

A thought to isolate those 2 variables, maybe try this.

Starting with 2 clean buckets or large pots, draw about 2 gallons worth of water out of the shower head into the buckets and try and not let the water hit the shower walls or floor basin. Run about 2 to 2.5 gallons out of the cold only from the shower head and then 2 to 2.5 gallons out of only the hot out of the shower head. Fire up the hot water heater when doing this.

Let that water sit for approx 1 hour inside the camper and smell it. Does any odor come up out of it? If the answer is "no", then we can rule out a contaminated piping system spraying bad water. And it's not the fresh water itself.

If it is stinky, then a chlorine sanitize of the fresh waster system should clean it up.

If it is not stinky, h'mm OK now onto the shower walls.

It almost sound like something is getting wet in the shower walls and aggravating a stink. There is not much left to sort out if it is not the water.

Maybe try something like this. Look at the seams of the shower walls where ever water can touch. Those seems are suspect to be harboring something behind them. Starting with a clean bucket of water, just pour some on the wall to run down only 1 side/section. Leave the other side dry. This might take a few hours or days but do one seam area at a time. Known fresh clean water will be running down the wall in a defined area of a seam. about 2 to 5 gallons slowly poured to wet it like it will taking a shower.

Then let it sit for a few hours and see is the stink comes. After a long time has passed and no odor, then do another wall/seam. After all 3 or 4 walls you would have tested all 4 walls and the basin to the drain.

Hopefully you can track this down to with wall panel is giving the issue and then we dig deeper into that area.

I do not recall asking, but here goes. When you take a shower, from the time you start showering until the smell shows up, how long a time is that?

And once the smell shows up, how long after showering does it take to go away?

Another question, hot water, when you turn on the HW heater and run hot water to the sinks only, does the smell come? Trying to see if hot water trigger the smell even if it is not going through the shower head.

Hope this helps. This one for is a mystery... but there is a cause, somewhere....

John

[JohnB]

To add to the above, if you are doing the water pour on the walls test, use water as warm as you would showering. The warm water touching something or some crud may be more aggravated with warm water then cold.

[Jim-Bev-2363]

It sounds like a septic issue to me. Maybe a too small septic tank or clogged drain field lines. What kind of septic tank is being used and is it sized for such use? When running more water, like when showering, the septic water level rises in the tank and forces "dirty" air back into the camper. This buildup of pressure will find a way into the camper. Maybe a P-trap in the main drain line will stop this backup of odoriferous air. Maybe have to learn to do GI bathing when inside camper so less water goes into the septic tank. ........ I do wish for a solution to this problem. I'm loosing sleep here and I can't even smell the stink, LOL!

[noralee]

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

It sounds like a septic issue to me. Maybe a too small septic tank or clogged drain field lines. What kind of septic tank is being used and is it sized for such use? When running more water, like when showering, the septic water level rises in the tank and forces "dirty" air back into the camper. This buildup of pressure will find a way into the camper. Maybe a P-trap in the main drain line will stop this backup of odoriferous air. Maybe have to learn to do GI bathing when inside camper so less water goes into the septic tank. ........ I do wish for a solution to this problem. I'm loosing sleep here and I can't even smell the stink, LOL!

thanks for the empathy. lol, don't lose any sleep, jim-bev. i lose enough for both of us i can't answer your questions about the septic tank. i'm not sure they can be answered since it was installed 100 years ago onto the land where i live before my family owned it. but also, since it's just me it's a minimal amount of water that goes into the tank. and, my showers are also only 6 gallon. i don't know much about the septic system, but if everything is capped off to the septic i don't see how any smell from there could get up into the camper.

[noralee]

john b, i have been ignoring this because i've been feeling pretty defeated by this little camper. i'm going to try answer some of your questions below in caps. i think if i'm understanding though, that some of these tests can't be done until the summer when i'm no longer using the shower inside. i don't know for sure that the smell is only here in the winter when the shower is in use because in the summer i have all the windows open as well so it's a different situation inside with so much circulation.

i will have to do some more tests over the summer. my hunch is that the smell is still there, but faint and not intrusive like it is in the winter.

the one thing that i have been noticing is perhaps there is a smell with the hot water itself, coming from the water heater. i do notice a smell, but haven't been able to single it to just the hot water, and not the cold water. or if it has to do with the bathroom sink drain, or...i'm going to start testing that out bc it is noticeable and could be sulfurous, related to the overall stink. i'll keep ya'll posted when i know more about this.

thanks for sending new suggestions and instructions.

Originally Posted by JohnB

Unless I mixed a few things up, this smell only seems to show up when you use the shower. Is this correct? During the summer you do not use it but do in the colder months-YES. SEE ABOVE

Since the shower drain is now hard piped with no gray tank, the trap must be working or sewer gas would come up all the time, and it is not. And we know it is not the gray tank. CORRECT

So if you can use both sink drains and the toilet and no smell, for a few months doing that and then using the shower once the smell comes up, this may at least rule out the toilet and the sinks. WILL HAVE TO TEST THIS MORE IN THE SUMMER

At first I thought maybe you have contaminated water stuck in the hot water heater. Contaminated water sitting in a tank like that can for sure stink. BUT, you stated in the summer, you still run the hot faucet just do not turn on the heat. Is this correct? This then should flush the heater and keep the water moving. Is this water going to the sinks at this point or you use it in the shower in the summer-ONLY THE SINKS? YES, THE WATER HEATER SHOULD STILL BE GETTING FLUSHED IN THE SUMMER

By process of elimination, this "seems" to point to the water itself coming out of the shower head, OR the water hits something in the shower walls system and it starts the stinking all over again because it is wet. Does this sound right? WILL HAVE TO SEE ABOUT THE WALLS IN THE SUMMER AND SEE ABOVE.

I do not recall asking, but here goes. When you take a shower, from the time you start showering until the smell shows up, how long a time is that? I NEVER NOTICE (BC I'M ALWAYS IN A RUSH W/6 GALLONS OF WATER) UNTIL I GET OUT THEN IT IS STRONG.

And once the smell shows up, how long after showering does it take to go away? THE PUNGENCY LESSENS BUT IT NEVER GOES AWAY

Another question, hot water, when you turn on the HW heater and run hot water to the sinks only, does the smell come? Trying to see if hot water trigger the smell even if it is not going through the shower head. I'M GOING TO HAVE TO FIND OUT THE ANSWER TO THIS

Hope this helps. This one for is a mystery... but there is a cause, somewhere....REALLY WANT TO GIVE UP ON THIS LITTLE CONTRAPTION. WAS HOPING THAT REMOVING THE GREY TANK WOULD SOLVE THIS AND LET DOWN THAT IT DIDN'T. WHEN THE SMELL GOT STRONG AGAIN ONCE I MOVED SHOWER INSIDE IT JUST KNOCKED THE WIND OUT OF MY SAILS. ALL THAT EFFORT AND I REALLY WANTED IT TO WORK.

[MACK C-85]

the one thing that i have been noticing is perhaps there is a smell with the hot water itself,

Noralee:

This is definitely a possibility. In my first house I had well water that had a rotten egg smell when heated, didn't notice it when cold, but stunk when heated.

Mack

[Jim-Bev-2363]

Noralee, You just answered the problem, I think. A hundred year old septic at the least needs cleaned out, no matter how little you use it. Others have filled it for you. It is like pouring water into a full bottle. What little air is in the bottle will be forced out before more water can go in. That air, under pressure of the water entering the bottle, will find a way out. Even if that air must bubble through drain traps. Since you are only using six gallons of water the septic must be up to the top.


Now I'll rest more easy. Hope you can.

[Gene]

I am beginning to think Jim may be onto something here. It didn't click when I saw his earlier post.

Every septic system needs a vent. The 100 year old system is no doubt a cesspool as opposed to the current tank and leach field systems but both require a vent. The 100 year old system is no doubt sealed except for the drain pipe going to it. As water leaches out of the system into the ground it has to draw in air. As water rises in the system it pushes air out.

My home drains all flow to a common vertical pipe. There is a pipe that goes down to the septic but that same pipe also goes up through the roof as an air vent. Each fixture has a "P" trap to keep that air from comming back into the fixture. In other words, the septic system has a direct vent to the air. Water (and stuff...) flows into that vent/drain pipe.

air vent
| |
| |____
| ____<== stuff from the house
| |
| |
septic

[Tweety]

If you can disconnect the sewer connection, then run fresh hot water from the shower onto the ground and it doesn't stink, then it's probably the septic as others have suggested. New clean water run onto the ground won't smell, unless the water itself is sulfurous. We had the sulfurous water problem at one state park, where heating the water caused a terrible smell. People say a filter helps with this, but we didn't know that until after we'd left there, so I can't verify that.

I know these seem like simplistic solutions compared to what you've been through, but I'm sure you're very frustrated, so thought I'd chime in.
Hope this helps!