Leaky roof

[JimS]

Here’s what I came up with for new risers and support bars for the rear of the AC. Made from a standard 2x6. Finished to 1” x 5.5”. That gets the AC sitting 1/2” higher than it was. The one on the right is cut to 4” wide because the OSB strip that it’s next to won’t allow any wider. I was trying to figure out a way to fasten a support piece for the back end of the AC but it would have to set on the truss where the frame of the riser is too. I felt one long piece would be better than trying two short ones joined on top of the truss. I didn’t think I’d be able able to slide this long piece in considering the hole is only a 14” clearance and there isn’t much lift to the metal roof, but it just made it.

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Starting just behind where the gasket will sit, I created a taper to the end. It’s about 3/8” thick where it sits on the far back truss. Hopefully this won’t break or bend as it holds the AC weight over the years to come. Outside top edges are rounded so it’s not so abrasive on the roof, corners are rounded for the same reason.

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The riser in place, ready to be fastened down.

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[Tinstaafl]

Jim, that's just downright purty. I've been playing voyeur on this thread since I have nothing substantive to contribute, but it's obvious you have a clue.

Hard to believe they used OSB there, gasketing notwithstanding. Even today's OSB is practically a moisture magnet, and wouldn't hold up well with the slightest leak.

[JimS]

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

Jim, that's just downright purty. I've been playing voyeur on this thread since I have nothing substantive to contribute, but it's obvious you have a clue.

Hard to believe they used OSB there, gasketing notwithstanding. Even today's OSB is practically a moisture magnet, and wouldn't hold up well with the slightest leak.

Thank you, but I really don’t have a clue. I’m just learning as I go, along with a lot of help from John. The only thing OSB is good for is a filler. For a few dollars more, there are so many other good choices.

[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

Wow, super job on the riser block setup. OK, I say it, you are handy! You have been around wood before, and it shows. Very nice work.

I have been thinking some on how to help suggest to make the long wood pad supports stronger for the 2 pads to help support under the compressor area. You are sort of boxed in with the roof metal being on. You can only lift it so high and what you came up with, slides right in. Good idea.

What you have for sure is better then what was there. It will work, the only unknown is, will time allow it to sag. The good news, the 4 main pads are taking a good deal of the AC weight and you have a lot of support there. The 2 end pads, are taking the left over weight. They are more stabilizing the AC from tipping on the 4 main pads. What you have now, may never sag. It's really an unknown.

The only thing that comes to mind right now if you want to make the arms stronger, is to change the material. You have made it out of what looks like SPF soft wood. Spruce, Pine, Fir which is very obtainable in the lumber yards.

If you cannot add a vertical rib under it to add strength, which I do not think you can fit it in there with the roof metal constraints, the only thought I have, is a stronger wood of the same shape. And it only needs to be the 2 long pieces.

SYP, southern yellow pine is stronger then the SPF for sure. The lumber yards sell it, and you might have to go to 8" wide or wider to get better quality with less knots and better grain in your favor. The same saw you cut the SPF will handle the SYP just fine.

A choice I went to about a month ago on a camper slide floor repair was to go to a 2 x 6 red oak board. I needed to create a beam to hold up a sagging OSB slide floor at the end of the slide. I needed something very strong, so I went with the red oak as I could buy a 6 ft pre planed clear piece at our local lumber yard.

See here https://www.menards.com/main/buildin...32-c-10067.htm

https://forestplywood.com/blog/lumber/red-oak-hardwood/

If you have carbide tipped blades/cutters, it saws/planes not bad at all.

There is also maple if it's available. Hard maple and soft maple are both strong.
https://forestplywood.com/blog/lumbe...he-difference/

I'm not saying you have to change the wood, just throwing out options in case you feel what you have needs more strength in the same size shape.

Also a tip I have found, trying to find clear or close to clear (#1 grade) lumber is becoming a rare thing in the big box store lumber yards. But, if you look at the 2 x 8 or wider widths, 2 x 10, 2 x 12, you can get better quality, even in # 2 grade. SYP is often better quality then SPF also. The 2 x 4 and the 2 x 6 sizes are very popular and as such, it is the cheapest to create as they cut it out of the center of the log making it more prone to warping if you rip them (the grain is circular looking at the end). Point being, you can sift through the pile of 2 x 8's or wider to find a better board.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work!

John

[JimS]

All good options John. I agree with all of it. Not sure if the regular stores would carry full 1” oak in the length I needed. Just assumed and didn’t look. I felt going to 1” thick was the most important feature instead of 3/4”. I bought a small angle iron, thinking that I could fasten that to the underside, but after I thought about it, decided that putting holes in the wood weakens it for cracking. And it turns out I couldn’t slide that little extra thickness of 1/4 into the gap anyway.

I tend to overbuild everything I do. Kept telling myself that this will be fine, even tho I wanted stronger. If all the sunlines out there have OSB as the norm and getting away with it, it will be fine(keep telling myself this!). It does make me want to take off the whole roof and rebuild it better, put spans between truss, etc. , but….. ( keep telling myself this will be ok!)….. But if it does have issues again, I’ll pull the roof. If I was someone who was opening up the roof for any other reason, as an added benefit I would definitely rebuild that area around the AC when that opportunity exists.

Photos of the frame fastened in with the screws you suggested. Went with #8 x 2” . After I had half of them in, it occurred to me I should have put a dab of sealer under the screw heads for extra waterproofing.

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Look at the seam where the new under bracing is below it. This was the low spot shown in the early photos of this thread. The seam is definitely a little more opened/weakened there. Never could see this until it was pushed back up into its normal place.

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[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

I see you have the "over build" background too. I am in the same boat, it started when I grew up in agricultural, then when I moved into industrial. Back then, the words, disposable was never used. When you repaired it or made it, it was 30 plus years worth of service before rebuilding if you could make it without adding large expense. Work time was something that was not in the main stream thinking, longevity was. Since them, I have combined the two worlds of long lasting and less time as time is money in the corporate world.

Your repair looks good.

Now this seam,


That seam is very suspect and your pics show deterioration of the whatever sealant they used. Now with your repair, just having water shed away from the AC unit and not pond, is a big help all by itself. Once you seal the seams, you will gain even more protection for the long term and seal any leaks if they are in that seam, which looks suspect.

As to OSB in the camper, my take on this, OSB used correctly and in the right application works, has some advantages over plywood. BUT... the non exterior rated OSB cannot handle any moisture, it swells and if the wetness continues, the glue breaks down and then the end is quick.

Now to the camper application, cost is a factor and a big one as is weight. When I first started into camper restoration, I kept shaking my head, why is this so light duty? And why did they pick these cheaper sealants? And then there is just plain the lack of craftsmanship and lots of quick short cuts. The more I learned, the more it became clear and this is where the Sunline's out last many of the other brands. The Sunlines were built with similar materials, some of the same methods, but the attention to detail was a lot higher. Yes, it most likely took longer to build, but this is small in the big picture of the product they are selling to a camper owner. But, it is a large cost to the business. There needs to be the right balance, and trust me, what is being pumped out of Elkhart's RV capital is the US right now with the latest upswing in RV sales, is appalling, many times worse then it used to be which was bad. Not all of the camper brands are bad, but many are built just built with too many short cuts in them.

Back to the wood, I came to the conclusion that the sealants are the weak link and some of the methods used to create the seal. And then there are just some pure long lasting design flaws across the industry, the infamous gutter rail system is one of them.

So I restore using the same or similar wood, but I do the sealing with high quality, more towards commercial building quality. I put the money into the sealants, both the roof, siding and floor system. If you can keep the water out, the wood used does work. Any leak is a bad one, the acceptance level is "0". I still use SPF wood for studding, floor joist etc, there is some SYP mixed in and I do use plywood in some places the OSB was before, but not always, it depends on where it is. Plywood costs more most times, but a 4 x 8 sheet goes a long way in a camper.

These Sunlines, once they are sealed up, will outlast many of the brands that were on the market, including many brand new ones. They are not a house, even though we like to use them like that, they are a fun place to go to and enjoy the great outdoors with. And you have to treat them with TLC and keep up on the right maintenance and understand what to look for.

Once you get past your roof leak, if you plan on hanging onto the camper for a number of years, even only a few, lets talk about all the siding leak potentials locations. Siding leaks can be as bad if not worse then roof leaks.

Keep up the good work, you are doing great!

John

[JimS]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Once you get past your roof leak, if you plan on hanging onto the camper for a number of years, even only a few, lets talk about all the siding leak potentials locations. Siding leaks can be as bad if not worse then roof leaks.

John

Yes. I’ve been looking at some spots since I got this camper, and now that I’ve learned a little bit I can see that there is a lot to do. Just on the roof there is a lot more to do, but I think what I’ve done has a high probability of stopping what was big trouble.

Amazing how the areas cleaned differently. What was exposed to the sun came almost all the way off. What was under the AC didn’t.

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I did put a coat of the eternaprime on it John. That stuff is crystal clear and hard to see where it’s been coated. Do you find it’s impossible to clean the brush? Each time I had to get a new brush. Next time I know to have lots on hand.

I decided to try folding the eternabond over the hole’s edge since the screws were so close to the edge. I felt that the 1/4” next to the screw head wasn’t enough. Wasn’t sure how hard the eternabond would be to work this way, but surprisingly it wasn’t too bad. Forgot to get a close up picture of it.

And let’s just say I need some practice going straight…….. haha


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The first foot of putting the eternabond down, I quickly learned you have to be careful of bubbles. Thankfully, no more happened after this.

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Just a shot of my setup for access, scaffolding instead of ladders.

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[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

You did good on the Eternabond, great job! Yes, the sun bakes the paint and everything off the roofs. The UV damage to the rubber roofs is also noticeable. Under the AC unit, there is mega dirt and yuk, but it cleans off and the rubber membrane out of the sun, is close to new.

Yes, there is a learning curve to using Eternabond. You did real good for your first time.

A few tips:

The day you make a mistake and it all goofs up, (all stuck together and a mess), don't worry, it's gonna happen. Here is how to get out of it.

"Stop" as soon as the sealant sticks to itself, or the wrong place. There is no undoing it, it's not going to come apart to be usable again. Trying to undo it to reuse it, is not going to happen. Trying, makes the mess worse.

Pending where and when the ball up happened, just do a clean cut at the last good application.

The pull out a heat gun and an fairly all dulled up 1" wide steel putty knife and a piece of rough cut board. OSB does work great for this.

Warm the Ebond, it will start turning into goo. Do not overheat, it makes a real messy and not needed. Scarpe up the hot mess and wipe it off on the edge of the rough board. Let it cool and harden up on the board, then scrape off the board or throw the whole board out. Wear gloves, that hot goo will burn you if it touches skin.

Heat and scrape as clean as you can. There will be traces still left. If you want to get it all 100% off or close to it, then use mineral spirts on a rag, wipe, let it soften, scrub and it will come up.

Once cleaned, then do a final clean with Naphata or other high flash cleaner, denatured alcohol etc. to get the film on the surface left over from the mineral sprits.

If there are small traces left, it can be OK if you are going over it with new Ebnond. Ebond sticks well to itself and the top white liner.

Do an overlap seam (1/2 to 1") to your clean cut and start over.

The eternaprime, you can use lacquer thinner or Naphtha on a rag and wipe over dried on primer and it will remove it. Do this right next to the Ebond you put down to clean it off the roof so it does not stay sticky and dirt attract to the exposed primer. This should also help with cleaning a chip brush etc. I use the liquid primer versus the spray can to help with the overspray. I throw the chip brush away when done. So far, I have not had the brush cake up while priming, but this could be as I'm in a shop and not outdoors in higher heat and sun. Dipping in the primer seems to keep the brush working.

Consider adding a small bead of Dicor on the exposed sealant edge of the ebond you put on the roof to stop dirt attraction to it. Soapy wet finger smooth it out.

Your gaining and doing a great job. Thanks for sharing as this helps others in the future.

John

[JimS]

The reason the brush dried up was because I did it in intervals. The way the truss supports are located plus the seam location, I had to do a section, let it dry , apply Ebond and then move plywood out of the way, etc. to move further along. So I tried to clean the brush with laquer thinner and then the next time with acetone. The Eprime said to clean off goofed up areas with these solvents if needed, so I thought it would work cleaning the brush, but no.

[JimS]

Oh, and on the bead next to the Ebond edge. Just out of curiosity, do you get it flattened down so it’s no higher than that tape edge? Or do you not worry about it and leave it higher. Just thinking about not creating a curb for water runoff with it I guess. Hard to get such a small bead. Crossed my mind too, would a paint do the same thing as sealing the sticky edge?

Thanks for all the help

[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

OK understand on the many trips to the roof seam with the primer. I didn't think of having to move the service support plywood. The rafter spacing and multiple full width seams creates a multiple step process. And, a multiple brush condition. The rubber roofs do not have mid seams so this never came up for me like yours has. I could prime all roof seams in one process as the large open areas can still have the service plywood out and moved as there is no intermediate seams.

And that the lacquer thinner will not clean the brush. That is a new learning. I never tried to clean the chip brush, but I assumed the lacquer thinner would cut it, as it for sure cuts it on the roof to clean up excess primer. It must be a thickness issue, the brush can end up a lot thicker then the roof coat.

On the Dicor bead on the exposed edge of the E bond, you place a small as "practical" bead along the edge of the Ebond. This bead is about 1/16 to 1/8" pending how fast you move the caulk gun. Then, soapy finger smear it on the roof and Ebond to flatten it out. This ends up being about 1/4" - 3/8" wide smear with about half on the roof and half on the Ebond. We are not trying to make a dam with it, just cover over the exposed gray sealant.

I looked for the "right" pic to show this, but with all the mega amount of pics I have, I only found this one easily. This was a camper restore I did 3 years ago for a friend. A new roof, new EPDM membrane and Eternabond on every roof seam.

This may be hard to see as everything is so white... The bright white is the Ebond.


The front roof to siding seam


A close up, you can see the Dicor smeared flat and about that 1/4 - 3/8" wide area


I you can't see it, I can get a pic from one of the campers in the barn.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by JimS

. Crossed my mind too, would a paint do the same thing as sealing the sticky edge?

Thanks for all the help

Forgot to answer this on the paint, I'm not totally sure if the paint will bond to the slick TPO surface of the Eternabond roof seal. The TPO material is a plastic formulation, and getting paint, adhesives and some coatings to stick long term to certain plastics is a challenge. And while it may stick on day one, after a year or more what you put on that TPO can start to lift. This coating lifting does not affect the Ebond, but it will flake off the coating or whatever you put on it. That I have seen with some roof coatings.

I know for sure the Dicor will bond long term to the Eternabond roof seal. The older instructions on the "old" Eternabond web site stated to do this and I have used it since 2009 and it still bonded on my T310SR.

Eternabond was sold to H.B. Fuller a short while ago, they are big into lots of stuff. Sadly, the information on Eternabond on the HB Fuller website does not go into the depth as the old Eternabond site did. You can find out more on Eternabond at the moment on the Best Materials web site then the Fuller site.

I would say, use the Dicor as I know for sure that will work.

John

[JimS]

Originally Posted by JohnB

A close up, you can see the Dicor smeared flat and about that 1/4 - 3/8" wide area

John

So you truly smear it? I thought I read in another thread somewhere you tap it to flatten or push it around slowly by tapping.

Originally Posted by JohnB

Forgot to answer this on the paint, I'm not totally sure if the paint will bond to the slick TPO surface of the Eternabond roof seal. The TPO material is a plastic formulation, and getting paint, adhesives and some coatings to stick long term to certain plastics is a challenge. And while it may stick on day one, after a year or more what you put on that TPO can start to lift. This coating lifting does not affect the Ebond, but it will flake off the coating or whatever you put on it. That I have seen with some roof coatings.

John

I wasn’t thinking so much as painting the white top surface, but just that black edge that’s sticky. Even if it did flake off the white, it might stay on the sticky surface.

If I’m understanding correctly, the reason you apply Dicor to the edge is to seal that black edge so debris doesn’t stick to it? It’s not about needing a seal is it?

Anyway, I was just thinking I could be neater painting the edge than I am with a caulk gun. Perhaps I will try a little section with paint for an experiment.

[Tinstaafl]

Jim, yes, either the paint or Dicor isn't technically necessary for waterproofing--it's more about looks.

Having said that, look back at what John said about paint sticking long-term. We know Dicor does; paint is a crapshoot.

Forming a neat caulk joint isn't really all that difficult with a little practice. Use your finger with a "rolling up" motion in relatively short strokes, so that you don't wind up pushing a dam in front of it that tends to squish out to the sides. Easier to show than describe in text.

I'd encourage you to go with Dicor.

[JimS]

Ok. Thanks.

[JohnB]

Hi Jim,

I can tell by your question, I may have picked the wrong adjective. One mans smear is another's thin it out to almost nothing...

Originally Posted by JohnB

A close up, you can see the Dicor smeared flat and about that 1/4 - 3/8" wide area

John

Originally Posted by JimS

So you truly smear it? I thought I read in another thread somewhere you tap it to flatten or push it around slowly by tapping.

Let me change the wording to better describe the action and why. Lets try this. See the text changed in blue.

"On the Dicor bead on the exposed edge of the E bond, you place a small as "practical" bead along the edge of the Ebond. This bead is about 1/16 to 1/8" pending how fast you move the caulk gun. Then, with a soapy finger level out the bead on the roof and Ebond to flatten it out. This ends up being about 1/4" - 3/8" wide flattened strip of caulk, with about half on the roof and half on the Ebond. We are not trying to make a dam with it, just cover over the exposed gray sealant."

Then the picture wording to this, removing the smeared wording.

"A close up, you can see the Dicor flattened strip about that 1/4 - 3/8" wide area"

The context of smeared can mean to some, apply heavy pressure to smear the caulk to a thin film. We do "NOT" want the Dicor pressure pushed to a thin film.

We want to flatten the caulk bead to maybe 1/64 to 1/32" thick strip on the roof and the TPO top of the Eternabond.

Let me explain what you read before about tapping the Dicor, and yes those where my words in this post. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...tml#post137746

The tapping is a Dicor, Proflex RV or standard Proflex caulk application technique I came up with to deal with these types of caulk.

Dicro, Proflex RV or standard Proflex, when the caulk just leaves the tube, the caulk bead you apply forms a very thin skin (about 1/2 the thickens of a sheet of paper 0.003") on the outside when it hits the air. When you pump out a heavy 1/8" to 1/4" bead of caulk, the inside of that bead is raw goo that will stick to almost anything (except silicone). The only thing between your finger and that goo, is the very light thin aired over skin.

By tapping a heavy puddle of bead like that, with a soapy finger you can flatten it or even push it gently where you want it and not break the skin on the caulk. After tapping to flatten, you gently feather it (light strokes) with the wet finger and smooth it even more. You do not want to break the skinned over bead with a dry finger or you will instantly be in the goo. This tapping process works well on thick beads of caulk.

On the smaller bead at the edge of the Eternabond, it is not very thick. There is not the quantity of the raw goo inside like the heavy bead has. A light feathering/flattening stroke will smooth it thin enough and not break through the skin.

Does this sound better? Please question anything I state so it is understood, it is hard to explain in words only. I can show you in 2-5 minutes the technique and you will have it. Words have too many meanings sometimes.

Originally Posted by JimS

If I’m understanding correctly, the reason you apply Dicor to the edge is to seal that black edge so debris doesn’t stick to it? It’s not about needing a seal is it?

Anyway, I was just thinking I could be neater painting the edge than I am with a caulk gun. Perhaps I will try a little section with paint for an experiment.

You have it correct, the Dicor is only on the edge to stop the debris from sticking to the exposed Ebond sealant. It is not a seal.

By the way, paint will stick to Dicor. Not sure about the TPO top layer.

I threw in the other two caulks used in sealing up the siding on a camper. Proflex RV and the standard Proflex both are tripolymer sealants made by Geocel. These caulks along with Dicor non sag can be used to seal the siding penetrations. When you finish the roof, we can talk on the siding penetration's issues. And where to get these caulks at a more reasonably cost. The pricing is nuts right now with the Covid issues in supply chain.

Hope this helps

John

[JimS]

Originally Posted by JohnB

On the smaller bead at the edge of the Eternabond, it is not very thick. There is not the quantity of the raw goo inside like the heavy bead has. A light feathering/flattening stroke will smooth it thin enough and not break through the skin.


John

Yes, Ok.
I must have overlooked or forgot reading that.

I still haven’t been able to get it flattened out and spread evenly like in your photos. I have some more areas to keep trying. Practice, practice, practice..

And I’m understanding now, that with the skin that forms, it really is never possible to smooth/smear/flatten the Dicon to be a smooth transition of caulk to surface. It will always have the slightest raised edge from the skin.

Hope to wrap it up today, we shall see!!

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by JimS

And I’m understanding now, that with the skin that forms, it really is never possible to smooth/smear/flatten the Dicon to be a smooth transition of caulk to surface. It will always have the slightest raised edge from the skin.

Hi Jim,

Internet signal very poor, so here is a quick answer.

It "is" possible to smooth Dirco or Proflex RV to a feathered smooth edge, with no practical raised edge if needed. On the siding joints, I do smooth out the caulk to a feathered smooth edge, again it is practically a very smooth transition to the siding. Not notable edge, it looks better on the siding.

I take a few extra soapy water strokes and smooth it to a feathered transition. It is a balance of just enough pressure to smooth it out and not break into the goo of the uncured caulk. It does take practice, try it and break down each step of the smoothing and see how it goes. If needed, I'll explain more.

On the roof E bond, I'm not so picky on the feathered edge, so yes a slight step edge, 1/64" to max 1/32" could exist.

Hope this helps

John

[JimS]

The new gasket is on, and also the four foam support blocks are on. They are hard to see. The majority of the foam blocks that have the tape across them, was an experiment that I tried. I didn’t want to damage the gasket once the AC was turned upright. These blocks are thick/high enough so the gasket won’t touch anything. When the AC is in place, I will remove them. They are taped the way they are so it would make easy removal.

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The AC installed. I sure do like the space I see under it now. The foam support blocks on the rear of the unit are now installed. Took some time figuring out the sizes. The left and right are different heights.

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Thought I’d throw this picture in. It’s what it looked like when I started.

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Looking at it from the back side. It might be a optical illusion from the the roof top accessories on the one side, but the roof don’t look even. But it looks ALOT better than before. Wish I had a before pic of this view.

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[JimS]

That evening we had a light rain, and I checked it out in the morning for leaks. No leaks. I let the AC unit settle for a day, then turned it on to make sure it was working. All good there. And No leaks from the AC dumping it’s water.

That night we had a short rain with gusty winds. Next morning I checked and found this.

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Wiped it off and shortly later it still showed up. Looks like its coming down from the metal pan. So I’m assuming it’s not seeping in from the roof area.

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I reached up and felt into the pan above the leak area. I felt it was wet in there. The rain can obviously get into this pan from the vents on the AC cover.

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Got up on the roof, took off the AC cover. Then took off some of the sheet metal that creates the plenum, allowing me access to the area. I’m thinking the weld/seal of the bracket to the tub is compromised.

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Got some Dicor on the washer/bracket. Now waiting to see if the drip shows up again some time.

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Oh, and while I think of it. The thin wire probe that comes from the controls of the AC, should that be tucked up to where? I thought I seen a video where it was placed right into the fins. Is that true?