I thought something smelled a bit odd

EMD_Driver · 09-16-2009, 07:44 PM

While checking out the WH in our Sunline, I made a discovery. It seems that the dump valve assembly had come apart somehow. The gray water pipe and valve had come apart, from the "T"

While I was under there, "Somebody" needed to use the potty... It was THEN that I found a bad leak, where the black tank drain pipe mounts to the tank itself!

The small side of the "T" has a rubber O-ring on it and it fits well against the outlet of the gate valve. Since I've never dealt with RV waste plumbing, I don't know how that joint is supposed to be held together. It fits, but doesn't "Snap" or stay-put.

Here's a couple of pictures, of where the pipe mounts to the black tank:

Once I get the valve assembly where it belongs, how do I make this joint stop leaking? I could not get it to stop leaking, no matter how I had the pipe oriented.

There's a possibility, that this may be another Sunline nicknamed "Stinky"

**JohnB** · 09-16-2009, 10:06 PM

Gary

I do not know exactly. Valterra makes a few different types of blade valves. Mine have a normal socket coupler you solvent weld the pipe on.

But here on there site they make the type that looks like yours. No soket weld.

http://www.valterra.com/RV/rv-main.htm Go to waste valve and move the mouse over the pic to make it bigger. I could not find any instructions for it.

Hope this starts to point you where to look further and for sure report back so we too learn how to.

Hope this helps

John

**JohnB** · 09-16-2009, 10:10 PM

Gary

That piping does not look Sunline original. Didn't the dealer put a new black tank in?

Well they had to deal with the 3" dump valve and may have disturbed the smaller gray valve.

Sunline used all black plastic pipe and use non galvanized pipe strap that rusts like crazy.

Steve Collins · 09-17-2009, 06:37 AM

Gary,

On the leak from the tank where the piping connects... Is it the joint itself or the weld of the female to the tank body>

You said you could not stop that leak, no matter how you positioned the pipe. Are you saying that the pipe is actually moveable in that male/female joint?

If it is, it sounds to me like the cement has failed (or was never done properly when they replaced the tank), and that joint would actually come apart in your hand if you disassemble the piping around it. That is the best scenario as you already have things mostly apart.

If it is the joint and things are loose, it's a fairly easy fix. Obviously, you'll have to drain and flush the tank first. Then drop that hanger and take it apart. Clean every thing up, and then sand the pipe where it was welded to the joint and sand the inside of the female where the pipe will fit. Get as much of the old cement out of the joint as you can, and finish with #220 sandpaper.

The white pipe is PVC and the black piping and tank body are ABS so you'll need a primer and cement that is good for both materials. If you are OK with PVC plumbing around the house, the rest is straight-forward.

If the joint came apart, then the other joints between the ABS and the PVC are suspect. It may be possible to twist things and see if any of them do. Don't break the piping, but some manipulation will tell pretty quick. Better to do all this once than have another joint fail somewhere down the road.

On the other hand if the leak is between the fitting and the tank body, there are several types of repair kits on the market for this. There is another discussion thread active right now about this fix.

Dump valve thoughts in the next post.

Steve Collins · 09-17-2009, 07:14 AM

Now, to the connection at the gray water valve. Here's your pic with some additons:

The square collar(left arrow) holds the flange (right arrow) on the end of the short pipe to the dump body. The four bolts and nuts hold the flange to the valve body. It looks like the flange has popped out of its holder, probably due to flex caused by the loose joint at the other end of the piping at the black tank. It could have popped out OR the square collar is fractured.

Look at this Valterra fitting which is probably the same one in your rig.

(Could not get the larger pic to display so I went with the little one.)
Notice that the square flange that bolts to the valve body is part of that fitting and not the valve.

So, if the square thingie (

) just popped off the flange, you may be able to take things apart and get it back on.

On the other hand, if the square collar is broken, check with an RV dealer to see if the collar itself can be purchased and re-assembled on to the existing pipe. If so, that's the route to go.

If the collar can not simply be replaced then you will need a Valterra:

or something very similar. Remove it and take it to the RV parts counter to be sure. That will require disconnect the other side's 3" flange on the black water valve. You might want to replace all the seals and hardware while you have it apart:

frank · 09-17-2009, 11:44 AM

Agree with Steve on the valve Tee. The square flat flange seems to have separated from the flared tube. You might be able to get it back on, but I'd replace it. I'm of the opinion that if it came off once, it will do it again.

As for the leak at the tank, unfortunately, that pipe should not be "loose", it should be a solid connection. I also see a lot of intermixed PVC and ABS in those pictures on the black tant. Although they make a glue to join the dissimilar materials, I'm not a fan. I prefer to see all one type of material, joined with the appropriate "cement".

There's a couple of different types of "cement" now. One type is actually a solvent which "solvent welds" (or "melts") the pipes and fittings together. This is what I prefer, and it requires all the pipes and fittings to be the same material (All ABS or All PVC). Another type of "cement" is more of a traditional glue, where the glue does the holding and the plastic is not "melted" together. The type used to join dissimilar materials is of the latter type.

If it was mine, I would be removing the plumbing on the black tank and redoing the entire run in pure ABS using the Oatey Black ABS cement. With a little luck and a lot of elbow grease that little section of PVC should be able to be removed from the black tank outlet.

I believe someone mentioned that the valve flange problem was probably due to vibration from insufficent support/bracing. I would agree. Once repaired, I think some additional support in there would be a good idea.

- Frank

Steve Collins · 09-17-2009, 12:34 PM

Gary, after reading over Frank's thoughts, one other issue comes to mind.

I believe that the separation at the gray water valve is in part due to how they sized the PVC pieces when they replaced the plumbing from the black water tank to the 3" valve.

Here's my thinking. All of that horizontal piping, valves, fittings, etc from the black water drain line over to the gray water drain line should be assembled so that there is a small amount of push of each part against the next. Sort of --><-- instead of <-- -->. Not a lot, but certainly enough to counteract the natural vibration of the rig on the road.

What I think caused the separation at the gray valve flange is that one of the horizontal pieces of white PVC is just a tiny bit too short. That condition would meant that there was a constant "pulling" action across the valves and the dump fitting. The 1.5" flange and pipe being smaller, and therefore weaker, than the 3" flange and pipe on the black water side finally failed due to this pulling apart action.

Make sense?

EMD_Driver · 09-17-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank

I prefer to see all one type of material, joined with the appropriate "cement".

I'm of the same opinion. An all-ABS pipe was on my list of repairs for spring..

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank

There's a couple of different types of "cement" now. One type is actually a solvent which "solvent welds" (or "melts") the pipes and fittings together. This is what I prefer, and it requires all the pipes and fittings to be the same material (All ABS or All PVC). Another type of "cement" is more of a traditional glue, where the glue does the holding and the plastic is not "melted" together. The type used to join dissimilar materials is of the latter type.

If it was mine, I would be removing the plumbing on the black tank and redoing the entire run in pure ABS using the Oatey Black ABS cement. With a little luck and a lot of elbow grease that little section of PVC should be able to be removed from the black tank outlet.

There's actually two pieces of PVC in that pipe run. I know better, than to mix different types of plastic pipe... I learned that years ago!

EMD_Driver · 09-17-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

Gary, after reading over Frank's thoughts, one other issue comes to mind.

I believe that the separation at the gray water valve is in part due to how they sized the PVC pieces when they replaced the plumbing from the black water tank to the 3" valve.

Here's my thinking. All of that horizontal piping, valves, fittings, etc from the black water drain line over to the gray water drain line should be assembled so that there is a small amount of push of each part against the next. Sort of --><-- instead of <-- -->. Not a lot, but certainly enough to counteract the natural vibration of the rig on the road.

What I think caused the separation at the gray valve flange is that one of the horizontal pieces of white PVC is just a tiny bit too short. That condition would meant that there was a constant "pulling" action across the valves and the dump fitting. The 1.5" flange and pipe being smaller, and therefore weaker, than the 3" flange and pipe on the black water side finally failed due to this pulling apart action.

Make sense?

It makes perfect sense! Guess I'll have to send Kitty BACK to Lowes, for some ABS!

kanyonkitty · 09-17-2009, 06:10 PM

HEHEHE, He just "loves" sending me to Lowes Of course I usually come home with more than he sends me for

Gene · 09-17-2009, 08:59 PM

Those pictures reminded me of what happened when I bought my 2363 used (abused!) 5 years ago. The pipe after the valve pulled out but I took apart the Valterra valve and got the square plate over the flange on the pipe and then got the valve back together. It has stayed together ever since.

Not long after that I found out why it seperated. The grey water drain pipe was cracked all the way around just after the tank. I fixed it using the Oatey Black ABS cement that Frank used in his excellent thread on fixing a black tank crack.

EMD_Driver · 10-06-2009, 04:54 PM

I finally got the chance to climb under the camper, this afternoon. What I found, was that the square flange on the gray side of the Tee had broken. Kitty managed to find a complete valve-tee assembly at a local dealer and I had been planning on replacing the whole assembly... Until...

I realized that the PO had not measured the white PVC pipe correctly and it is nowhere near where it needs to be, for the gray pipe to properly mount to the valve.

Before I go any further, I need to know how the piping connects to the black tank. Grumbine's RV was nice enough, to cement the white PVC into the female BLACK fitting on the outlet of the black tank. It then goes into a black elbow, which is connected to yet another white pipe. That white pipe then goes to the lower black elbow, to another white pipe and finally to the black valve assembly.

My question is, there appears to be a rubber bushing/gasket in the black tank and then the female tank outlet is inside that... Is that how it is actually made? If so, can I remove the ABS female from the rubber and replace it?