C-750 Runabout Electrical Question

[detour]

Originally Posted by bunjin

Nice illustration dtstanton. The thing that caught my attention is that the 15 and 20 amp legs have the potential of putting 35 amps onto a 30 amp line in. Is there a 30 amp main breaker somewhere downstream that the 2 sub lines tie into or is it normal for this panel to act as the main?

I'll have to check and see how I am wired.

It worked! Thanks so much for the help! That is the only breaker box I have on the slide-in.

I have one final question which brought me here in the first place. I rewired the ground I cut but like I said it was just hanging and not tired to anything when I cut it. It was just wrapped around the copper gas line. I am not really sure what to do with it now or where to ground it. I imagine it would attached to the siding wherever I can attach it? Just want to make sure and double check as this whole electrical work has gotten me more familiar with the dangers. Plus my fiance won't go near the thing until it's completely fixed :/

Here are a few more photos of the ground wire I am talking about.

Old cut ground
http://detourdispatches.com/img/ground/old_ground.jpg

New ground refastened to the gas line clamp
http://detourdispatches.com/img/ground/new_ground.jpg

Hanging ground
http://detourdispatches.com/img/grou...nd_hanging.jpg

Hanging ground again
http://detourdispatches.com/img/ground/new_angle.jpg


Thanks again for all the help!

[MACK C-85]

it appears that both circuits to the trailer are coming off the 15 amp breaker. If that is correct they may have had the black wire from the cable hooked to the 20 amp breaker using it as a main to back feed the panel.

If I could get a hold of a 15/30 double breaker, I would put it in the other side of the panel, run a#10 jumper wire between the two lugs at the top, hook the black wire from the cable to the 30 amp breaker (new main), split the two wires on the 15 amp breaker onto separate 15 amp beakers. The 20 amp would then be a spare or for a/c unit.

I'll try to draw something up tomorrow.

Mack

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by bunjin

Nice illustration dtstanton. The thing that caught my attention is that the 15 and 20 amp legs have the potential of putting 35 amps onto a 30 amp line in. Is there a 30 amp main breaker somewhere downstream that the 2 sub lines tie into or is it normal for this panel to act as the main?

I'll have to check and see how I am wired.

This is very normal. If you drew the full rating through both breakers, you would likely trip the 30 amp breaker at the camp site. You won't be drawing maximum through both, and likely not even through one of them. When you're plugged into the 30 amp service at the camp site, their 30 amp breaker will protect your camper and your cable. Your 15 and 20 amp breakers will protect your camper further.

I'll try to put this simply so it's easy for everybody to understand. Breakers in any installation or breaker box are sized on "duty cycle". That is, they figure your circuit load will only be "On" for maybe 10%...15%...25%...50%... of the time. (There is a standard set of rules they use for it.) The load rating will be adjusted accordingly. It depends on the kind of load - whether it's for lighting, for appliances, or whatever. When they size those circuits, they may figure that your 20 amp circuit will only be (maybe) 6, 8, 10 or 12 amps after considering the duty cycle of the intended load. A good example is your house, in which you may have 6 or 8 (or more) permanent receptacles on one 20 amp breaker. Each receptacle/outlet is rated 15 amps. Simple math would tell you it would be real easy to overload the circuit, but the odds of max-ing everything out in "normal" usage is slim. If you tried, your 20 amp breaker would trip.

As far as your panel acting as the Main (if I'm up-to-date on it) the National Electrical Code says that you have to be able to shut everything down with a maximum of 6 motions of the hand. You can kill both of those breakers with 1 motion.

Bottom line: Not to worry.

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by detour

It worked! Thanks so much for the help! That is the only breaker box I have on the slide-in.

Great! You're more than welcome!

Originally Posted by detour

I have one final question which brought me here in the first place. I rewired the ground I cut but like I said it was just hanging and not tired to anything when I cut it. It was just wrapped around the copper gas line. I am not really sure what to do with it now or where to ground it. I imagine it would attached to the siding wherever I can attach it? Just want to make sure and double check as this whole electrical work has gotten me more familiar with the dangers. Plus my fiance won't go near the thing until it's completely fixed :/

...and she probably shouldn't. Well, if it's plugged into electricity anyhow.

Your old ground wire - the piece you cut off - is a good clue. There were two lugs on it that were mounted "somewhere". I'm afraid that's going to be a little more difficult to say without seeing what you had to begin with. My guess they attached to the skin of the slide-in, possibly one to the skin and one to the frame. You'll have to check it out to see what was most likely. Rule of thumb is, all exposed metal surfaces should be grounded. Now, some of these other guys will be able to tell you how Sunline did it - with multiple panels. I don't know if they relied on the seams for connection or not. As a minimum, one would probably be attached to the skin and one to the frame, but I couldn't be sure where yours was.

When you find where they should go - make sure there is good, shiny metal when you screw or bolt them down. Coat them when you do with something like Penetrox or NoAlOx - something for electrical connections that prevents corrosion and resists water.

You're doing a great job. Keep asking questions. These guys have helped me a lot, and I'm glad I can contribute to help another of our group.

[bunjin]

I understand what your saying dtstanton, that is why I said potential. The difference is that in my house the circuits goes to a main which in turn is much higher gauge wire. If I'm at the mercy of the campgrounds wiring, bottom line: You haven't made me feel any easier.

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by MACK C-85

it appears that both circuits to the trailer are coming off the 15 amp breaker. If that is correct they may have had the black wire from the cable hooked to the 20 amp breaker using it as a main to back feed the panel.

I didn't notice that both circuits were on one side. I think it's simpler than that, George. Looks to me like someone just put both circuits on one breaker for whatever reason. Simply putting one on the 20 amp breaker should take care of it. Usually when I see this, someone just stuck the wire "there" because they could, but it could even be that the 20 amp breaker was bad and they put both on the 15 to make it work.

My solution would simply be to put one wire on each breaker so that one breaker feeds each circuit, and keep the black 30 amp on the Line lug. If one side didn't work, it's easily replaced. This is a single pole twin breaker (two breakers, one space), and only costs $15 or $20 max to replace it. Taking it down to the local Lowes or Home Depot (or electrical supply house) is all it takes. Pops right out, pops right in.

[detour]

Originally Posted by dtstanton

I didn't notice that both circuits were on one side. I think it's simpler than that, George. Looks to me like someone just put both circuits on one breaker for whatever reason. Simply putting one on the 20 amp breaker should take care of it. Usually when I see this, someone just stuck the wire "there" because they could, but it could even be that the 20 amp breaker was bad and they put both on the 15 to make it work.

My solution would simply be to put one wire on each breaker so that one breaker feeds each circuit, and keep the black 30 amp on the Line lug. If one side didn't work, it's easily replaced. This is a single pole twin breaker (two breakers, one space), and only costs $15 or $20 max to replace it. Taking it down to the local Lowes or Home Depot (or electrical supply house) is all it takes. Pops right out, pops right in.

I wish I new what all this meant. I am going to look into the suggestions you guys have made and try to wrap my head around this. Maybe with MACK C-85's drawing it will make more sense.

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by bunjin

I understand what your saying dtstanton, that is why I said potential. The difference is that in my house the circuits goes to a main which in turn is much higher gauge wire. If I'm at the mercy of the campgrounds wiring, bottom line: You haven't made me feel any easier.

The campground's breaker, maybe. <G> Seriously, it's no different than the breakers in your house. The outlets in your house are only fed by #12 wire - at most. That wire goes back to a 20 amp breaker. Your entire breaker panel is fed by a much larger wire capable of carrying 100, 200, or 400 amps (depending on the age of your house), but individual circuit breakers feed much smaller wire - depending on their assigned loads.

There is no need to worry about the breaker sizes, either in your slide-in or the campground. They will do fine. Worst case: If you should overload a circuit, you'll just trip a breaker and be without power until you turn something off and reset the breaker. Not a big deal.

I believe we found and corrected your shorting problem. A fresh pic will clear that up for certain.

Now the only thing we need to do is make sure you have a good grounding circuit so your fiance will join you in your Sunny.

-Dale

[Wannabes]

Dale,

By no power invested in me...
...and by the authority of no one...
I hereby pronounce you to be the Master Electrician for Life of the Sunline Owners' Club!

Truly, you are the John B of all things electrical.

I think I can speak for many when I say that it is a blessing to have someone of your experience, in your specialty, as a member of the Forum.

Thank you for sharing your great wisdom.

--Matthew

[bunjin]

Mack C-85, good catch. I missed your post. I assumed each circuit were wired as individuals, however what did puzzle me was that the black line didn't look to me as ever being captured by the lug up in the right hand corner as I would have thought. Three things caught my attention. 1) the line wire didn't show any signs of being the least bit crushed. 2) the line wire was about the same length as ground and neutral, thus would be short to reach the lug. 3) the lug looked as if it had never been screwed in ever.
I missed the 15 amp circuit having both 15 and 20 wires going to it although I did notice each seemed the right gauge.

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by Wannabes

Dale,

By no power invested in me...
...and by the authority of no one...

Oh, wow! Thank you, Matthew! <blush>

When I came here, I felt kind of inferior - being a Sunline/TT noob and all. I'm just glad I can use some of my experience to help others, as others have helped me. Wasn't sure I'd be much use at first. It helps to have been in the industrial electrical world virtually all of my working life (since '74). Hopefully, I can be of more use as time goes on. I was a licensed Journeyman electrician for years, and could have been a licensed Master - but "politics" and red tape repulsed me enough that I let it go.

Thanks again, I appreciate the sentiment.

[mainah]

Years ago they used to put more then one wire on a breaker but not any more. They probably did that because the charger and the outlets were wired separately. You can use the 20 amp as a main and I'm pretty sure that is what they did. A main in the camper is better then jumping out of your camper to disconnect the power cord in case of a serious issue in the middle of the night. The power cord is rated 30 amps so that would be the max rating of a main breaker you can use a 20 amp that's OK the only problem could be nuisance tripping . More often then not they used a 15 and a 20 amp on small campers. The outlet ring circuit was 15 amp and the A/C was 20. Yes that is greater then 30 amps but the A/C would not draw max amps except during the start cycle the duration was very short and generally no where near 20 amps. Me I would land the loose black wire under the 20 amp's screw add a #10 jumper to the box and buy a 15 amp breaker separate the two wires from the one breaker and land one under the new breaker fix your siding ground and sleep well.

[detour]

Here is a better image of the ground wire issue. I don't have a steel frame or at least one that is exposed I can attach it to. You can see the gas line that the ground wire followed before I mistakenly cut it. The ground wire ended at elbow and looked like it had previously been cut. Any ideas on the best spot(s) to ground it and should it just ground to the shell/tin siding?

[dtstanton]

Sorry, guys. I don't mean to be contrary, but I would recommend against the 20 amp main and and jumper idea. Yes - it would work just fine, but it unnecessarily complicates things and there's no real reason to do so. The only reason to use a jumper would be if the box had two "normal" single-pole breakers - and a jumper (installed between the main lugs) would be necessary to power up the left side. That's not the case with that type of breaker. Both sides of the breaker are powered up by that one wire that he reconnected to the right side main lug, and he has two separate breakers (two properly protected live circuits) right there in one package - everything he needs. The only reasons I could see for buying breaker(s) would be to add a circuit, or if he has a problem with either of the existing breakers. Then he'd have the option of replacing the breaker in kind, or buying two separate single-pole breakers - in which case, a jumper would be necessary. I guess there is another possible reason as well - personal preference.

A main breaker comes into play when it's advantageous (or required by code) to have a single point to disconnect power to a structure. One motion of the hand will kill all of the power with the existing setup - the same as if a "main breaker" was used. It's simple and natural to do that now. There's no advantage.

[dtstanton]

Originally Posted by detour

Any ideas on the best spot(s) to ground it and should it just ground to the shell/tin siding?

Would that piece of angle below the dump valve be a possibility, Dave? Could that be where it might have been attached originally - maybe bolted down to it from the back side? (I'm remembering the two lugs on the original wire.) Does it offer a good connection with the metal siding? This may be one for the guys with more familiarity with its overall construction.

-Dale

[detour]

Originally Posted by dtstanton

Would that piece of angle below the dump valve be a possibility, Dave? Could that be where it might have been attached originally - maybe bolted down to it from the back side? (I'm remembering the two lugs on the original wire.) Does it offer a good connection with the metal siding? This may be one for the guys with more familiarity with its overall construction.

-Dale

Yeah, there were two lugs on the ground wire. I wish I had a photo of the wire previously as it wasn't really connected to anything. I'll connect it that angled piece tonight and possibly to the metal sheeting under the camper too if I can manage it.

This discussion on electrical systems has been enlightening to say the least. Thanks for all the help, guys. When the lights turned back on last night I was very excited.

[mainah]

Originally Posted by dtstanton

Sorry, guys. I don't mean to be contrary, but I would recommend against the 20 amp main and and jumper idea. Yes - it would work just fine, but it unnecessarily complicates things and there's no real reason to do so. The only reason to use a jumper would be if the box had two "normal" single-pole breakers - and a jumper (installed between the main lugs) would be necessary to power up the left side. That's not the case with that type of breaker. Both sides of the breaker are powered up by that one wire that he reconnected to the right side main lug, and he has two separate breakers (two properly protected live circuits) right there in one package - everything he needs. The only reasons I could see for buying breaker(s) would be to add a circuit, or if he has a problem with either of the existing breakers. Then he'd have the option of replacing the breaker in kind, or buying two separate single-pole breakers - in which case, a jumper would be necessary. I guess there is another possible reason as well - personal preference.

A main breaker comes into play when it's advantageous (or required by code) to have a single point to disconnect power to a structure. One motion of the hand will kill all of the power with the existing setup - the same as if a "main breaker" was used. It's simple and natural to do that now. There's no advantage.

You can't use a 20 amp breaker with a #14 wire. Some campers use an main some don't I I like to have my own disconnect. Regardless the 20 amp breaker has to go so he has to buy a breaker either way either keep what he has as a main and buy a single 15 amp for $6 or a tandem 15 amp for $16.

[mainah]

If you have a converter/charger it should have a ground wire going to some type of metal frame work or the breaker box. Also the main frame ground is in your breaker box it is the lowest one on the bottom left it goes through the box and most likely through the floor to something perhaps your gas pipe. The gas pipe will ground the metal stove, the rest of the stuff sink etc. are plumbed with plastic so grounding is not an issue. You could land a siding ground at the gas pipe clamp I would suggest a new ground clamp you most likely will not get it off to clean it up in one piece.

[dtstanton]

Am I missing something? Is there a reason the breaker has to be changed? If not, and no assumptions are made - what can be simpler than moving one wire to the other side of the breaker - like this.......?



No cost and very little effort. What am I missing that makes this a problem?

If one is #14 and the other is #12, the #14 should go on the 15 amp (left) side and the #12 on the 20 amp (right) side. That's a given.

[mainah]

If it is a #12 wire yes a #14 no then the black power cord wire would have to be landed on the power box right hand lug. It I'm sure was landed on the 20 amp breaker just by its length. The wiring has been tinkered the neutral and the grounds are correct the power wiring is not. The power supply cord would have to be removed stripped to length and reinstalled but if the 20 amp side is a #12 wire it would be perfectly all right to wire it that way.