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Old 10-07-2009, 07:19 PM   #1
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Black tank questions.. With pics

I'm starting a new thread for this particular problem. As of now, I have not spoken with the dealer that sold us our Sunline. I'm really looking for options right now.

The PO had some shoddy repair work done and Grumbine's RV decided to make it worse, when they replaced the black tank. When we first looked at the 320, I noticed that the whole black/gray/discharge valve assembly seemed to be on a bind and I asked that it be fixed properly. We were then told, that the black tank was cracked and would be replaced.

You know how excited you can be, when you pick up a new Sunline (I didn't, till this experience!) and neither of us really paid proper attention to their "Workmanship"

It appears that when they replaced the black tank, they left-off a few of the tank support plates.



It also appears that they cut the PVC pipe, going into the ABS connection on the side of the tank and connected the shortened piece of PVC into the ABS connection of the new tank. This put the pipes and valve assembly under even more stress. When the stress became too much, one of the gray valve flanges gave-way and broke.

I have replaced the broken part of the valve assembly, but I need a little help with the black side of the equation.

There looks like a rubber flange in the black tank, that the female ABS connector lives in. It's between the rubber and the ABS, that the leak occurred. Can the ABS female connector be removed and replaced? If so, I would be able to replace ALL of the white PVC pipe that was used by the PO. Since a picture is worth so much help around here, take a look:

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Old 10-07-2009, 08:30 PM   #2
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Gary

That rubber tank fitting.... H'mm I "think" this might be what they put in there or something close to it. Tried searching for tank fittings

http://www.rvpartsoutlet.com/product...oducts_id=7431

If that is the case, it looks like the pipe just stuffs in the rubber. I tried to run down the EMP manufacture of that rubber ring but did not come up with it quick.

That rubber ring may be intended for a vent pipe as opposed to an under the water line connection that can take the higher water pressure agasint it.

If it is a rubber ring, it might be your saving grace in this mess. Pull out the entire 3" pipe and start over.

Mine, it looks like Sunline fused in a rigid connection in the tank, not a rubber ring. See here:








Also the tank support plates, there is suppose to be 2 screws in per plate and all plates in place. See mine. Having a tank come down is not something one wants to experaince....


Now as far as the dealer, that one is your choice but I myself would not take it back to them after seeing what you have to deal with. Your handy enough to redo this yourself and do it right and fully supported with band straps and all the tank support plates.

I would look for a weld in female tank flange.

I'm in Nevada for work until Friday or I would go out and look at the T2499 for you. That rubber ring is suspect. The T310 is under the enclosed tank cover and that is a bear to get down to just check for a rubber ring.

Good luck and let us know how you make out

John
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:41 PM   #3
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Thanks for the words of encouragement John!

If time permits in the morning, I'll drop one of the remaining support plates and fab up some new ones at work.

Also, in Lowes today, I found rubber fittings designed for ABS pipe. I bought one long elbow for the black tank's pipe and a long elbow for the gray tank's pipe. Since they are flexible, they should greatly reduce any stress from vibration.


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Old 10-08-2009, 06:37 AM   #4
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Lowe's ya gotta love that place - unfortunately its an hour drive, for us to do any quick "fixes" we have to go to our local Ace!
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:16 AM   #5
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I hear ya! Kitty would probably suffer from severe withdrawl, if she couldn't get a Lowes "Fix" at least once a week!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy & Nana
Lowe's ya gotta love that place - unfortunately its an hour drive, for us to do any quick "fixes" we have to go to our local Ace!
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:32 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Mine, it looks like Sunline fused in a rigid connection in the tank, not a rubber ring.
I'm a little late to the discussion, but FWIW, mine is the same way.

I also spent some time this summer crawling around under some other trailers to see how things were built. Every one I saw also had a hard connection to the tank.

Like John mentioned, the only time I've ever heard of rubber rings was for connections to vent pipes. There's usually some complaining in that conversation, where the vent pipe has fallen into the tank..

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Old 10-08-2009, 05:18 PM   #7
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I feel as if I should start this thread, by saying: "My name is Mike Rowe and THIS is my job!"

I decided to remove the offending pipe assembly from the black tank, this evening. What a mess! The tank had been rinsed out, but there was still a lot of muck and water left in the tank.

I first removed the valve assembly and took my temporary supports off. Upon closer inspection, I found that the ring that I thought was rubber, was really some kind of plastic. It was along the line of JB Weld, but not as hard. It was at the bottom of where the outlet collar was mated to this stuff, that it was leaking. There was probably a 2.5" separation, between the collar and the "Plastic glue"

It was very difficult to get the collar separated from the rest of the joint. I actually ended up cracking the tank in two places. The cracks are minor and will be repaired at the same time as the new collar is installed.

Here are some pictures of the pipe assembly, after removal..

















Notice the joint, where the PVC pipe was connected to the collar on the tank. Nobody in their right mind, would do a repair like this and expect it to actually work!

My plan (As it stands now) is to grind up one of the old ABS elbows and make some black repair paste. I'll then use a 3" coupling as the new tank collar. It will take quite a bit of cleaning on the hole in the side of the tank, but my repair will be much stronger than it was from the factory.

I also found out that the tank was made by WEVAC and that they are now out of business. I had no luck in finding any suitable parts that were made by them.

It also appears that we were lied to, about Grumbine's RV having changed the black tank. The glue joints were all identically done and with the same type of glue.

If anyone has any suggestions on a better type of repair, please let me know.

Gary
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:22 PM   #8
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Gary,

I went to Genova's web page ( http://www.genovaproducts.com ) and looked over their catalog of ABS fittings ( http://genovaproducts.com/docs/Plumbing6-25-08.pdf - Pages 56-59). I didn't see anything in their 800 Series (ABS) fittings that would work any better than a 3" coupling.

I was looking to see if there was anything with a small flange on one end that you could use to improve the physical strength of the connection to the tank. Ideally you could weld it in place and then run some stainless hardware through the flange and the tank wall to give great mechanical strength to the joint. But the shape of the tank wall around the fitting hole pretty much rules that out.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:31 PM   #9
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Gary

Ideally using the same original style 3" socket weld adapter I would think is best. Only reason for saying this is it has a flange that can allow a better solevent weld. There is more adhesion area and the molded flange gives the socket fitting support

However if the hole in the tank is now messed up to not allow a new flanged fitting, then to save the tank, a coupling could work just the weld area will be very limited. Allmost only a fillet type of weld. The weld could hold the water back but may have some support issues

Ideally you can find some ABS plastic to make some gussetts out of to add between the side of the tank and the side of the coupling. Gussetts will help take any side loads.

Good luck

John
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:04 PM   #10
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John,

I haven't tackled it yet, but I'm planning on possibly trying a 3" male threaded coupling. It has the female 3" on it, that the pipe will fit into. My idea, is to cut about half of the threads off of it. I would then shape that end, to help keep things from hanging up. The size of the coupling would allow the cement/filings mix to be added, on the inside of the tank. I would also build up around the tank/fitting seam.

The threads will give the mix something to bite into and allow maximum strength at the joint.

Sound like it will possibly work?

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Old 10-12-2009, 08:42 PM   #11
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OK a NPT to 3" pipe coupling. Yes that is different then a union coupling.

Ideally you have a 3" NPT tap to cut some thread in the tank.... RR have any?

Or better you can get inside and screw a lock nut on it.... but that is most likely not going to happen.... Or you are really really good with a Dremel tool and cut about 1 or 2 threads...

This type of solvent weld is sort of all about contact surface area. If you can get enough surface melted it should hold.

If once you get the NPT fitting in there, it is going to be a judgment call then if you need to add some gussets. You can still do that with the fitting you are proposing. Key is the fitting cannot rock around or it might crack the weld.

Good luck

John
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:47 AM   #12
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OK, I am so totally TICKED OFF by the CRAPPY fix that Grumbines did on our Sunny. Gary should not have to be trying to clean up their mess, but seeing what they did and called it fixed/repaired, I would not let them have another wack at it, nor will I ever deal with them again or recommend them to anyone.

We had so hoped to get out camping a few more times, but that really does not seem possible now. Between Gary trying to work with his painful hip, trying to get the 14 x 28 foot garage/workshop organized, and the Sunny plumbing mess, well there is just no way he can do it all, but gotta love him as he sure tries. He's always telling me "It will be all right" when I get irritated, annoyed & ticked off.

Right now, I so want to just order a NEW black tank (Sunline brochure says it's a 30 gallon) so it can be installed and this CRAPPY job done and over with.

OK, now I have vented on this crappy subject, and NO, I don't feel any better, still very ticked off. Gary should not have to be doing all this extra work.

Well, better get off my soapbox and get something done today. Maybe trade Sunny 14 in on that rear living room 5th wheel that is sitting in Thurmont, MD.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:00 AM   #13
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Hey Kitty

I was wondering when you where going to chim in, your right on cue

Now the 5th wheel..... Yes, she is a beauty and it has more space. That garage could all be filled with tools and stuff and more tools...

Don't let the black tank stop you from camping. Just, pick a camp with a heated rest room near by. Where there is a will there is a way, to go camping...

John
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:38 AM   #14
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Yeah John I have been kinda quiet on this matter, but today it got the best of me. Had to go out there a couple of times, and of course the slide is in so Gary won't knock his head off getting to the darn plumbing and well it just really ticked me off.

As for going camping and using the uh, campground facilities , well, I have not even mentioned doing that to Gary, as I'm not willing to go that route. I KNOW who & what is in my bathroom, so I guess I'll have to just stay home, go online once in a while and vent a bit

And maybe drool a bit more over this:
http://www.endlesssummerrv.com/5672.htm

Still mention to Gary that maybe we should have gotten it in place of the T-320.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanyonkitty

And maybe drool a bit more over this:
http://www.endlesssummerrv.com/5672.htm

Still mention to Gary that maybe we should have gotten it in place of the T-320.

H'mm I thought you where talking about Ihsolutions 5er for sale. It is a rear living area one. But that one you linked to is very nice too. Oh boy I need to stop looking.... I really don't need a 5th wheel...

I also see they have an 05 there too just like IhSolutions 5er, just a different interior color and a different price.

Boy there are nice looking units.

John
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Gary

OK a NPT to 3" pipe coupling. Yes that is different then a union coupling.

Ideally you have a 3" NPT tap to cut some thread in the tank.... RR have any?

Or better you can get inside and screw a lock nut on it.... but that is most likely not going to happen.... Or you are really really good with a Dremel tool and cut about 1 or 2 threads...

This type of solvent weld is sort of all about contact surface area. If you can get enough surface melted it should hold.

If once you get the NPT fitting in there, it is going to be a judgment call then if you need to add some gussets. You can still do that with the fitting you are proposing. Key is the fitting cannot rock around or it might crack the weld.

Good luck

John
John,
I searched through the plumbing department and found nothing that we could use, that would fit those threads. I intend to cut the threaded part to half it's length. That will enable Kitty to reach around the inside, and get some of the weld around the inside of the tank. Since there will still be threads on the fitting, the weld will have plenty to grab onto. Theoretically, this will make it nearly impossible for the fitting to pull back through the tank. I don't intend the inside weld to seal the joint, I will be putting as much weld as necessary to seal and hold the fitting from the outside.

I know most of my ramblings are useless without pictures, so I'm waiting for a warm enough length of time to do the job and take plenty of pics.

Gary
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver
I know most of my ramblings are useless without pictures, so I'm waiting for a warm enough length of time to do the job and take plenty of pics.

Gary
No rambling, I'm following right there with ya.

H'mm Kitty's hand can fit thru the fitting. Never thought of that. However if a dry test run out in the open does not work with hand in fitting, maybe you can get a small brush that you can bend the end backwards to reach in and spread the stuff around. If you remember the old flux brushes used for soldering copper pipe, metal hollow tube handle, brush about 1/2" wide, that size would work just about right. Stiff enough bristles and you can bend the handle about 120 degrees backwards to create that inside brushing.

Good luck

John

PS Since you are cutting threads in plastic, you can make a tap. Start with a 3" sch 40 pipe nipple. Then file/grind in V's across the thread (length wise with the pipe center line) about every 30 degrees around the pipe. The sharp V you file in will cut the plastic thread as you screw it in. You may have to grind a starter lead in on the end.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanyonkitty
OK, I am so totally TICKED OFF by the CRAPPY fix that Grumbines did on our Sunny. Gary should not have to be trying to clean up their mess, but seeing what they did and called it fixed/repaired, ...

Right now, I so want to just order a NEW black tank (Sunline brochure says it's a 30 gallon) so it can be installed and this CRAPPY job done and over with. ...
I would be seeing RED at this point if I were in your position. Is there any chance that you could tell the so called dealer that since they "forgot" to replace the tank as promised they must still have it and would they just hand it to you so you could do a proper repair, as they are unable to do it correctly themselves. Sometimes a FIRM (but not too loud!) conversation, on the sales floor, with the sales manager can get his/her attention.

Good Luck,
Gene
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:57 PM   #19
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We modified the threaded fitting and used some of our home made ABS weld to hold it into the tank opening. It took quite a while, for the weld to completely cure, but Kitty says it's good and tight. With the whole T-299SR ordeal going on, I haven't had the time to get anymore done to it. If it holds properly, our black tank woes may be a thing of the past!
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:44 AM   #20
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YEAH
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