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Old 12-20-2008, 10:24 AM   #21
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I am leery of mixing tire brands and tread designs as well construction type--seems like shingling half the roof . Since traveling the AK and Dempster Hwys two years ago I have decided to stick with nationally available brands. We had Yokohama LT tires on the truck which still are highly rated, but not exactly easy to find in the hinterlands where we often travel. We were lucky not to have any tire problems and did drive solo on the Dempster although there was plenty of gravel in other places while towing. If we traveled within a day of home I wouldn't hesitate to get a Denman if it was available locally, but until then I think I'll stick with Goodyear or Michelin LTs and Goodyear STs.

Chinese tires still make me uneasy and part of that is because I suspect they aren't made by Goodyear at all. China is a huge country with huge tire factories. The largely NA market for ST tires is a drop in the bucket. I suspect the "Joyful Worker Rubber Co." makes a Marathon radial one day of the week or month and "Happy Camper" radials, or any other brand, the rest of the time. Then we pay a premium price to get a Goodyear tire, but at least there should be after sale support.

FWIW tirerack.com now lists the country of origin on its specs pages.

Tire manufacturers claim spontaneous ST tire failure is rare and that the catastrophic failures reported on any number of RV boards are due to underinflation/overloading and accompanying overheating. So was a blowout caused by a lousy tire or a slow leak? I'm a firm believer in TPMS, and, for a long distance traveler, it is the most cost effective safety feature available.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/ph...highlight=tpms

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Old 12-20-2008, 11:22 AM   #22
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I agree with not mixing tire types and brands any more than one has too. I would certainly not mix bias and radials as I have heard over the years that is a big no-no, at least on cars so I would expect the same on trailers.

I had a conversation with a tire dealer today - one of the big national chains - and he said he preferred radials over bias bias ply for one reason - when a bias ply goes, it goes big and is likely to do more damage than a radial.

They carry Denman in both a radial and bias ply, and the bias ply is a few dollars less expensive per tire. Switching to bias ply, I would need 5 tires as I would need my spare to match.

If I stay with radials, I could purchase four, then use my spare(a Goodyear marathon) and the replacement tire coming from Tireco, and have two spares. They would not match brand and tread of the four Denmans, but I would have two spares if needed. (And I hope I never need them!)

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David
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:04 PM   #23
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Dave,

I wouldn't base your decision on what one tire dealer says about damage from a blowout. I've seen pictures of damage from radial TT blowouts that caused extensive damage to the TT.

When a tire fails a lot of bad things can happen. According to all my research, the odds are MUCH greater that a radial ST will will experience a blowout or some failure than a bias ply. I'll admit that there are many more radial ST tires in use out there so that can be part of the answer, but not all of the answer.

I've noticed that some people had noted that shortly before a tire failed, they had struck a curb or bad pothole or something with that tire. The reality of trailer towing is that sooner or later you WILL strike a curb or something that can damage a tire. A lot of times this is unnoticed. And where does it damage the tire? On the sidewall. It's a fact that bias ply tires simply have significantly stronger sidewalls and are more damage resistant, for this reason.

I don't have a dog in this fight, as Doctor Phil would say, but I can tell you that the more research you do on the subject, the more that you see that bias ply tires have the best qualities for heavily loaded ST service. Again, my opinion from online research.
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:28 PM   #24
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Two more discussions on trailer tires. The first one provides a good bit of information and discusses why passenger or light duty truck tires should not be used.

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/inf...ionAnxiety.dos

and

http://www.championtrailers.com/tire_art.html


Such a tough decision. I think I will sleep on it a couple of more nights!
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:33 AM   #25
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Hi Everyone

I’m in the same boat in needing 5 new tires and my search continues on the Radial vrs Bias quest.

It is really hard to get some definitive concrete info which is better. Let me add to the discussion what I have found.

Sunline did us a favor. They go by the concept of sizing the axles to the full GVWR of the TT. Meaning you can load the entire GVW on the 2 axles and not trip the GVWR. In practice you cannot do this. The TV holds the tongue up and as such the TV carries some of your TT GVW. So if you are abiding by the rules and keep the TT within it’s GVWR limit, the axles and tires should never reach full weight rating.

For example: A 7,000# GVWR TT was loaded with camping gear to physically weigh way to 7,000 lb #. That weight happens to be split, 6,000# on the axles and 1,000# on the tongue. From this you still have 1,000# of reserve capacity left on the TT axles and tires. And your tires should not be running at there limits. Providing you floor plan and your stuff allow you load fairly equal sided, you can stay under the tire weight rating.

Not all brand TT’s are made this way. They actually sort of cheat and let the TV hold some of the weight and let the axles/tires be less then full GVWR. This way they can get a high rated GVWR TT for the brochures yet not have to install the heavier axles and tires. It is all legal just you do not have the same safety factor as what Sunline does.

In some cases this flips you from a C load range tire to a D load range tire.

Bias Tires:

Bias tires have been around a long time. They are used on many heavy duty applications. They are known to have heavier constructed side walls. They are stiffer and when towing a stiff side wall is a wanted characteristic to reduce left to right sway. The heavier side wall in theory should help if you hit or bruise a side wall while towing. A curb, a rock etc some times just jumps out at us regardless of how hard we try to not hit them. Depending on how hard the hit was, this may help you not create a problem down the road.

Bias tires do run hotter, it is a negative but the tire is made stronger to be able to take heat.

From years ago, many years ago, bias tires use to be more prone to flat spotting while sitting very long periods of time and not rolling while under weight. A TT in storage could create this situation if it was very long term stored. The unknown question is how long is long term? 2 months, 6 months, 1 year?

Radial tires when they first came on the scene had issues. Those of us who remember this also may remember you could only do a 2 tire rotation pattern where now we can do up to a 5 tire rotation pattern if we so choose to. The problems of early days have been worked thru.

The radial tires does flex more, have more surface contact with the road, they run cooler and have less pulling drag. ST Radials are made with stiffer then normal side walls to take the demands of running on a trailer and the high skids loads of turning a dual or triple axles trailer.

On long hauls like we do in our TT’s the radial tire will run cooler then the bias. They just do because of the construction. However the bias is suppose to be made to take the heat. The same argument goes on the side walls. The bias has stiffer side walls which is good for anti sway, however the ST radial has enhanced sidewalls over the standard radial to take the needed trailering flex.

See this pic of a Duro bias tire next to a radial. You can see the radial on the right has a flatter surface to the road.



Regardless of bias or radial, inflate the TT tire to max side wall pressure for stability and check the tires at the start of every trip for proper pressure. On long multi week excursions, check them at least weekly. It is the cheapest protection we can do. The tire pressure monitoring systems are a nice feature. Have your TT axles scaled and keep them under the weight ratings. The way Sunline built our TT’s you should not be overloading the tires as a norm.

Tire manufacture dates: When I buy mine I will make it a stipulation that all 5 are date coded no older then 1 year, ideally less then 6 months but I do not know how hard that might be to get. I do not want 2 plus year old tires before I ever start using them.

Tire balancing. Most TT are not balanced and I have heard there is not a need but I will have mine balanced as the axle bearings will live longer and so may the tire.

My TT and TV does not have sway issues and I’m running the original Maxxis ST radials on it now. And proper setup needs to be made to make sure this stays that way. As an added bonus next year I will add shocks and a rubberized equalizer link to my running gear.

Brands. Escaping the China syndrome is getting almost impossible. Maxxis, while still a China tire, seems to fair/rate the best from the offshore brands. http://www.maxxistires.com/Industrial/Trailer.aspx

On the North American side of the ocean, Denman makes both a ST radial and Bias ST tire. Members from this forum hooked me up with this option. http://www.denmantire.com/catalog/p22.pdf I believe the ST radials are made in Mexico and the ST bias here stateside.

Warranty:
Maxxis has a 4 year warranty from date of purchase
Denman is 60 months from tire manf. date.

There is more fine print on each to read. Blow outs/tire separation is our biggest concern.

My search has narrowed me to these 2 brands. And for me, I can buy either brand here locally. So what will the choice be? Well as it stands today, the Denman ST radial is in a slight lead over the Denman ST bias. If you can believe the marketing hype of Denman, there ST radial is the very best ST trailer tire in the marketplace. And they say that over the ST bias although they do not directly compare the 2, they use different descriptive wording. By the time I place the order, my mind may flip I’m that much on the edge. I am not a tire expert and this is only my opinion from the findings I have tried to research which cost nothing to post here for free… Good luck in your final decision.

John
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Old 12-21-2008, 12:19 PM   #26
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I am real close to pulling the trigger on the Denman radials. I think radials and bias ply each have certain advantages over the other. If stability is an issue, then bias ply tires would be preferred. For me, the heat seems to be the biggest enemy of tires, besides improper inflation. It can get pretty hot on the highways during the summer in Georgia, so I think the radials make sense for me. Again - I think either will be just fine.

I will post later on my experiences with whatever I finally choose!

Thanks to all those who offered insight and experience to the discussion!

And - Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Season's Greetings to all...

Later,
David
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Old 12-21-2008, 01:36 PM   #27
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Just an update on our tire situation.

We found the MAXXIS radials on the 2499 were old enough to cause me concern. We have purchased 5 new DURO bias tires to replace them.
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Old 12-21-2008, 02:08 PM   #28
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Tire Loading

One must consider that when weigh a trailer it's practically always done on a flat level surface. Unfortunately roads can be and are often crowned, particularly non- interstate roads.

In this situation the load from side to side can change. Always seek as much load carrying margin as you can, maintain tire pressures and take it a little easier on poorer roads.

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Old 12-22-2008, 08:20 AM   #29
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I have been sitting back reading this post from the start. There have many good points and lots of very good information.

I pull a trailer everyday.We own 3 trailers for the company and and have used bias and radial tires. Over the years most of my tire failures are in the summer. It is hot and we are towing more since it is our busy season. I use mostly radials now they seem to hold up a little better in the heat.

I tow up and down the west coast Florida all day. I see RV's all the time and there is one thing I have noticed. 80% of them are driving well over 65 mph. Some are traveling at over 80 mph. Winter or summer the pattern seems the same. I wonder why there are so many tire failures. I also believe the quality of the tires isnt as good as it once was.
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:04 AM   #30
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I believe highway speeds have increased. Vehicle are more capable of higher speeds than they were a few decades ago. Suspensions and tires are more capable and a a result people can drive faster. Increases in towing vehicle ability does not mean that trailers can or should be towed faster.

Part of the preception that tire quality is lower may be that speeds are higher. In general quality improves over time.

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Old 12-22-2008, 10:59 AM   #31
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I try to keep my speed around 63-65 on the highway. I find that my truck downshifts less at that speed. If I drop below 60, the rpm's are low enough that my truck will have to downshift more often on grades. But at 63, the rpm's must result in enough horsepower to hold most grades.

I had also heard that ST tires were rated for maximum speed of 65, so I have tried to keep my speed at or under that. I am frequently passed by trailers doing 70+, and wonder if they realize the added risk they are creating by doing so.

Later,
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickster60
I tow up and down the west coast Florida all day. I see RV's all the time and there is one thing I have noticed. 80% of them are driving well over 65 mph. Some are traveling at over 80 mph. Winter or summer the pattern seems the same. I wonder why there are so many tire failures. I also believe the quality of the tires isnt as good as it once was.
I believe that you really pinned down one of the major contributors to ST tire failure: Excess Speed! If a tire is rated for 65mph max and someone tows at 80mph they have pretty well used up all the safety reserve built into the tire.

I was traveling up the Northway in NY to go to Lake George this last August. I was traveling at 65 mph in my Mustang Convertible and a Dodge truck pulling about a 28 ft TT passed me like I had slammed the brakes on! Do you think that he will eventually have a tire failure? I do!

I also agree with you that I don't think that the quality is as good as it once was and the reason is corporate greed. Yes, they can have a tire made in China and make more profit but, as is the case with SO many Chinese goods, the quality just isn't there. End result is that the tire company makes more money and the consumer gets a questionable product. I'm definitely looking for a tire that is being built in this hemisphere but the choice is now very limited.

In the end, all we can do is try to pick what we perceive to be the best available tires, keep them inflated correctly, avoid curbs and speeds over 65mph and hopefully this will be enough to insure safe traveling for us all!
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #33
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They are rated for 65, but they can be rated for higher:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodyear Tire & Rubber Company
Industry standards dictate that tires with the ST designation are speed restricted to 65 MPH under normal inflation and load conditions unless a different speed restriction is indicated on the sidewall of the tire.

Based on industry standards, if tires with the ST designation are used at speeds between 66 and 75 mph, it is necessary to increase the cold inflation pressures by 10 psi above the recommended pressure for the load.
o Do not exceed the maximum pressure for the wheel.
o If the maximum pressure for the wheel prohibits the increase of air
pressure, then the
maximum speed must be restricted to 65 mph.
o The cold inflation pressure must not exceed 10 psi beyond the inflation
specified for the maximum load of the tire.
From: http://www.goodyear.com/rv/pdf/marat...nfo_032806.pdf

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Old 12-22-2008, 04:25 PM   #34
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Good information on permissible over inflation.

But why is it that we want to push limits?

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Old 12-22-2008, 05:21 PM   #35
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I'm not advocating towing over 65 all the time, but there are instances I feel it is worth it. I felt I needed to put that out there because there are people who could read this and if they were going down a hill, they would ride the brakes so they wouldn't go over 65 with fear that the tires would explode. That can cause way more problems than just letting it go over 65 and tapping on the brakes every so often.

While some drivers aren't in too much of a hurry while towing, big hills do come along and I feel it can be beneficial to kick it up to 70-72 just to get a little more momentum going into it. If there's a slow trailer on a hill, all the other vehicles will fight to get into the left lane to get around which could cause more problems in the end.

Some trucking companies have put speed governors on their company trucks and drivers have been complaining about this for years. Even though companies think they save money, the drivers report they really don't because of the hill situation.

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Old 12-22-2008, 06:08 PM   #36
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I think the Goodyear info is good information. It's good to know the absolute.

I also think that there's too much individual drive to rush. I meet too many people who pride themselves on driving too far too fast. This includes people who tow and don't tow.

I try to be aware of the road ahead and don't mind being the slow guy in the right hand lane. I try to plan for down hill runs and not top the hill at speed. I carry Mountain Directory books so I know where the really long hills are and plan accordingly.

My attitudes have really modified as I've gotten older.

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Old 12-23-2008, 05:55 AM   #37
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We keep it at 60 mph. Yesterday I felt like a road hazard on I95. People were flying by me like I was standing still. We may take some back roads on the way home in a couple weeks.
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:47 AM   #38
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I know what you mean about people flying by you. In general I just stay to the right and let them fly. WHen we can we take alternate routes. Thi is particularly viable once you get out of the northeast.

There's always an older road, usually more interesting that parallels the Interstate. This week we're in mid California and will take route 99 instead of I-5.

There are similar routes all acros the country.

Of course, as you get west teh Interstates are a lot less congested though people fly out west it's not as hairy because they're are fewer of them.

We're always happy when we're out of the Northeast.

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Old 12-23-2008, 11:07 AM   #39
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I agree with being happy out of the Northeast, what a place. I am so glad I moved to Florida many years ago.

Speaking of Florida I am driving down I-75 this morning and I see this Dually coming up on my left. He was going at least 80 with a horse trailer with 4 fine looking horses. I looked down at the tires and noticed the fender was peeled back like a sardine can. It was folded rear to front with a pair of vice grips holding it down so it wouldnt flap in the breeze.

I guess he didnt learn from the first blow out.
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Old 12-23-2008, 02:15 PM   #40
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Four Horse

I've also got a four horse story.

We just drove down CA'a Rt 101, the coast road from Eureka to Ukiah, a mighty hilly an in parts curveceous(sp) road. Along the road we spotted a Gypsy like wagon, smoking stove pipe and all, with four horses for power.

I would say the wagon was as long as our Sunline but narrower at 5-6 feet.

I bet it weighed as much as ours. Who says we need all this horsepower to tow our trailers. We just need a little patience and time.

Merry Christmas,

Norm and Ginny Milliard
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