T-2570 just bought, getting ready for Spring

[Torskdoc423]

Doing some finishing stuff, like getting rid of the rear end 4" lift block and replaced with a 1" lift block. Measuring ground to top of wheel well (thru center of tire)
BEFORE...........................AFTER
UNLOADED

38.5"...............FRONT.........38.5"
43"................BACK.........39"



The truck is more level, and we can both ingress without any problems now.







I leveled the Sunline and got 16.75" at both ends on the siding. Top of the Hitch ball pocket was 20-1/8 or there abouts. I had the ball mount adjusted straight up and had 5 links (it really wasn't tight enough). So adjusted the top of the mount so had 3 serrations from edge toward the back. Hooked up and put 5 links (Lot's of resistance!!!!!)



Results.
TRUCK HEIGHT
38.00 Front 1/2" lower than unloaded

38.5 REAR 1/2" Lower



Trailer Height
17.00" Front
16.50" Rear.



This is as close to completely level as I can get it. Took it out for a short run around the block and everything handled fine. And after shaking down the suspension on the F-350, Suspension is as above loaded.

[Torskdoc423]

Trailer was empty except for the fresh water tank was full. As it's centered over the wheels, I don't think it will affect balance other than fore and aft balance for tongue weight and not much for that either.

[Torskdoc423]

Just got back from the CAT Scale down the road. 3 section scale. Truck on front section disconnected from trailer.....Truck by itself weighs 11560lbs (Whoa!)



Tongue by itself on center scale............................................. .. 900# even.



Trailer with wheels on back scale............................................. ... 4420#'s.



GCVW.............................................. ........................................16,880#

and we aint loaded yet. I'm used to towing 8k-9k GCVW at most. Gonna be a new experience.



Then the wind kicked up a little and the scale wouldn't settle down so I couldn't get axle weights on the truck.



Group 27 Deep cycle, 2 full propanes, and approx 130# of tools and gear in front storage. Approx 270# load moment from center point. Empty tongue weight according to brochure is 630#.



Approx 110# of Hotel load in the aft (pots, pans, some food, dishes,

silverwear). This is all within 3 ft of back wall.



Fresh Water, Gray Water and black water all empty. Standard Dometic 18ft awning.



Right now I'm looking at 900# tongue weight, which works out to about 20.05% (of 4420# axles weight).

[264SRinPA]

I think you have your numbers wrong. No way your truck weighs 11560lbs. GVWR for your truck is only 10,000lbs. My F350 crew cab diesel only weighs about 8300lbs empty. Also your percentage of tongue weight seems way to high. Going by what you said, you didn't weigh every thing the right way.
You need your front axle on 1 scale, your back axle on the 2nd scale, and your trailer axles on the 3rd scale. You also need to do 3 weighings to get all the numbers. Truck alone, truck and trailer "without" the weight distribution bars hooked up, and truck and trailer "with" the weight distribution bars hooked up.

[Torskdoc423]

I questioned it too. They re-tested and got the same #.



The 2nd time I had the truck Frt axle on one scale and rear axle on 2nd scale. The total was the same. So I'm thinking their scale is off.



The tongue weight is fairly close if you take the as built (empty tanks, no battery, etc) weight of 630 and add weight of the battery (85#) 40lbs for each FULL Propane tank and 105 approx for tools, jacks, 65A inverter, etc. All of this is at the extreme front of the trailer.



I feel that the trailer weight and the tongue weight together (5320#) is pretty close to what it should be with the gear that is now in it. Empty weight of trailer with no options is approx 4355#. It has an 18ft awning, 2 flat screen (24" Aft & 27" Fwd over the corner cabinet. Also 65A PD inverter, Larger electric Tongue Jack, cross frame stabilizer jacks in rear.



I agree with your statement that the truck doesn't weigh 11,600. I questioned it. I just looked at the sticker and GVWR is 9900# with GAWR FRT of 5200#, Rear GAWR of 6820#. Truck IS 2004 F-350 King Ranch, C/C, 6.0PSD, AUTO, 4WD short bed SRW. They weighed it on the middle and rear sections a 2nd time and the numbers came out the same. I can't see 275/65-R18 tires on Aluminum mags, and an underbed gooseneck hitch boosting the weight to 11.6K much less to the GVWR of 9900#. Vehicle is NOT altered except for the substitution of the 4" lift block on rear for 1" lift blocks. I'm gonna go up there tomorrow and talk to them at the weigh station and show them the GVWR sticker on the truck (I didn't think of it today). and a copy of the brochure for the T2570 showing weights and tongue weight, and see if they'll re-weigh it on their dime.



Also note that the weights DO NOT include driver or passengers. I was outside the vehicle OFF the scale during weighing of truck/truck trailer combo. truck was empty inside bed and seats/floor.

[Torskdoc423]

New #'s for the truck. (Took it to a different scale) this morning. 3/4 tank of fuel.


Me in Truck. 206#


Frt Axle............................ 4540#
Rear Axle......................... 3160#
Total.................................7700#
-206...(Actual truck weight).7490#


Plus 5320# for the trailer and tongue = 12,800 CVW.

Truck is rated for trlr weight of 12,500 on Frame hitch(with EQ).

GCVWR 22,400.


No Eq on hitch.....
Truck squats 1" rear. 38" rear
Up in front 1/4" from nominal 38.75
(see unloaded measurements above in post 61 for nominal heights.)


Eq on hitch. Truck squats equally from Nominal

38.5" rear

38" Frt.

This is at 5 links, with the ball mount 3 notches angled back from Vertical.



I was taught (way back in the 60's) to measure front and rear wheel housings heights both unloaded (baseline), then with the trailer hooked up with the EQ engaged. Front squat should be within an inch of nominal. At or below nominal height by 1" max) My 2013 GMC Yukon manual states this(as did my 99 Suburban manual) but Ford doesn't. I tend to go lower as it gives me more steering feedback(tighter response, not as loose with re-circ ball box) and the combo doesn't tend to wander as much. And to get the trailer as level as possible. When I get it fully loaded, and enroute, I'll stop and weigh the whole shebang with and without the EQ Hooked up. But I still think the Tongue weight is ok (on the high end)the way it's loaded now.

[264SRinPA]

Here is a calculator that will help
Actual Weights - Travel Trailer/Bumper Pull Weights from CAT Scales - TowingPlanner

[JohnB]

Hi Larry,

Sorry I’m a little late to the party. Been busy and now caught up for the moment on my Sunline reading.

Your truck looks really good with that rear lift block removed. Good job.

I’ll offer up some of my learnings over the years on WD hitches on GM and Ford vehicles to give you something to think about. I’ll explain were this is coming from so to can decide if you want to change you current approach to setting WD on the truck.

You made this statement from back in the 60’s on WD hitches and you mentioned the GM’s and Ford’s.

I was taught (way back in the 60's) to measure front and rear wheel housings heights both unloaded (baseline), then with the trailer hooked up with the EQ engaged. Front squat should be within an inch of nominal. At or below nominal height by 1" max) My 2013 GMC Yukon manual states this(as did my 99 Suburban manual) but Ford doesn't. I tend to go lower as it gives me more steering feedback(tighter response, not as loose with re-circ ball box) and the combo doesn't tend to wander as much. And to get the trailer as level as possible. When I get it fully loaded, and enroute, I'll stop and weigh the whole shebang with and without the EQ Hooked up. But I still think the Tongue weight is ok (on the high end)the way it's loaded now.

You are right, from the 60’s that was the thinking on what was an OK way to set a WD hitch. A lot of this came from the aftermarket WD hitch manufactures. The method was nicknamed “equal squat” as to get the front of the truck to squat below unhitched height close the same as the rear of the truck squatted below unhitched. And your right, by loading the front end of the truck, you will get more tire grip on the front tires which may make the truck feel more tighter/responsive. Some also mentioned the truck itself needed to be level as well after adjusting the WD hitch. Since that era of the 60’s, much has been learned and changed in setting up WD.

One thing that has not changed, is to tow the camper as level as possible. That is still the goal and if you cannot obtain level, then slight nose down is better than nose high. But, do not get too nose down as that creates issues with excess load on the front of the trailer axles with tandem wheels.

I ran head first into this equal squat theory when we had our first Sunline. We traded our 2002 Tahoe for a 2003 2500 Suburban due to the heavy tongue weight of the Sunline I managed to fall in love with, a 2004 T2499. Folks where still preaching the equal squat theory in 2003/2004 and I could not get that 2500 Burb to squat the front end. The back of the truck kept lifting, but the front did not want to squat very much below unhitched height. So I started reading, and learning and looking at others WD hitch setups. Mainly GM’s at the time.

I did find the reason on why a 2500 GM truck does not want to squat the front much below normal ride height. GM does not want the 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton or 1 ton trucks, pickup or SUV with torsion bar front suspension to be compressed below spec ride height. They have yellow jounce bumpers in the front end to prevent large shock loads in the front of the truck from a mechanical hard hit and over pressure on the torsion springs.

Here is a pic of my truck at the time showing the yellow jounce bumper on the lower control arm next to the torsion spring. The 2500/3500 HD’s were built the same. The 1500’s with torsion bar suspension has a little different set of jounce bumper stops.


Guys with 2500HD’s with the diesel’s, had those bumper stops smashed with the front end riding lower. Those jounce bumpers are what was holding me back, that and the weaker GM hitch receiver at the time on the year 2000 redesign from getting the front of the truck to squat below unhitched normal ride height.

So I gave up trying to get equal squat as it is not going to happen on that 2003 2500 Burb. So what is the right way to adjust a WD hitch on the newer vehicles from the 90’s and beyond? Reading a lot of the hitch manufactures, Reese, Drawtite, Husky, Curt, Equal-I-zer etc. they all had their own versions of what was the right way. Equal-I-zer by Progress Mfg. was the last holdout in the industry to keep pushing equal squat, but in time they too changed. I looked and looked and could not find any GM truck owner’s manual to explain what GM wanted for a WD setting on their truck, pre year 2003. It did not exist until the 2004 models and I didn’t think not look there, but it did show up. Finally GM would state what they wanted for their trucks. At that time, (2004 and somewhat older until around 2015 time) they wanted the front end only returned to unhitched height. No front end squat. Lucky me I had a 2003 and they never said anything on how to adjust the WD hitch.

This link from GM Chevy site the owner’s manual 2004 Chevy Suburban shows on PDF page 368, manual page 4-72, the first ever printed GM instructions on setting WD on a torsion bar front end. The 2500/3500 HD’s manuals from 2004 also showed this. They want the front of the truck returned to unhitched height. No squat. https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam...ban_owners.pdf

I kept thinking, there has to be more to what is the right way to set a WD hitch and why as the hitch manufactures and the vehicles manufactures are so different. More research, I came upon a vehicle study from the 70’s where an engineering firm was hired by the NHTSA | (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) to study trailer towing effects on cars towing trailers. Remember back in the 70’s, cars were big and they were towing campers. A lot of accidents where happening and NHTSA wanted to look into why.

I printed the study out, it is about 2” thick of engineering type stuff but a few things they reported back then in the 70’s showed up, one being how to setup a WD hitch as that was part of the accidents. If you want a link to the study, I will see if I can find it and if the info is still on their site.

The big finding was, too much weight was being transferred to the tow vehicle front axle. They found that by the WD hitch pushing extra weight above unhitched to the front end and even the normal front end weight when towing a trailer, could cause an accident given certain situations.

By having the front end of the tow vehicle being too heavy, excess grip by the tires on hard dry pavement can create a condition called “oversteer” where when the trailer is pushing the truck in a downhill situation, and a turn is approached, the front tires bite in so to speak with excess friction and can send the tow vehicle into jack knife very quickly. They also found, when excess weight is pushed to the front axle, the rear tires were unloaded excessively so in slippery conditions, the back of the truck could slide with the excess weight loss and the front would not slide aggravating loss of control.

Here is an explanation of over and under steer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understeer_and_oversteer

The study found it was better to have the tow vehicle front end slide some and have some under steer then to have excessive oversteer. This finding totally goes against the equal squat concept of WD. This learning was all back in the 70’s, yet it was not mentioned until about 6 maybe 8 years ago. SAE then created new guidelines for WD settings.

If you go to Ford, GM and Dodge truck manuals on a current day truck, they spell out the WD settings, but they are talking about FALR, Front Axle Load Restoration. Once the big 3 all got on board with FALR, they offered a slightly different approach but they all had a common theme. The front end of the truck was not to be any heavier then unhitched, it was to be lighter then unhitched. Ford and GM target 50% FALR. Dodge is a little different, it can be a more then 50% but not close to 100%.

100% FALR means you returned all the weight taken off the front end by the dead weight of the trailer on the ball. 50% FALR means you restored only 50% of the front axle weight that was removed by the dead weight of the ball on the hitch. 0% FALR means there was no weight restored to the front axle by the dead weight of the ball on the hitch.

Here are links to a 2015 Ford, GM and Dodge truck manuals. I picked the 2015 as there is less electronic anti-sway and backing up assist to sift through then the 2020 versions. They talk about setting the WD on the truck. Ford and GM are only returning 50% of the load removed from the dead weight of the trailer on the ball. They basically put the front fender heights half way between full dead weight on the back to fully returned to unhitched, or 50% of the weight is only restored to the front.

2015 Ford F350. PFD page 200, manual page 197 https://www.fordservicecontent.com/F...US_11_2014.pdf

2015 GM 3500HD PDF page 350, manual page 9-87
https://my.gm.com/content/dam/gmowne...ra2ndPrint.pdf

2015 RAM 3500 PDF page 667, manual page 665
https://msmownerassets.z13.web.core....5/3500/246.pdf

You may want to rethink your current WD settings on pushing more weight to the front of the truck then unloaded. Remember, it is a 1 ton truck. The truck was built to carry weight on the back of the truck. It can carry the entire payload of the truck on the rear axle. With a heavy diesel up front, why push more weight up front then was there to start with?

You also mention your 99 Suburban and your 2013 Yukon stated to push more weight to the front then unhitched by 1” below unhitched. I looked to make sure I did not miss that, but that is not what I found. Are you sure that was what it stated?

Here is the 99 Suburban manual. It does not mention anything I could find for setting the WD. Towing starts on PDF page 228 manual page 4-46 https://my.gm.com/content/dam/gmowne...hoe_owners.pdf

Here is a 2013 Yukon manual. It talks about retuning the front end to unhitched height. This was before the 50% FALR guidelines but no front end squat. PDF page 355 manual page 9-71
https://my.gmc.com/content/dam/gmown...kon_owners.pdf

Here is your 2004 F350. Ford back then said the front end can be within 1/2” either side of unhitched. Lighter or heavier. PDF page 185 https://www.fordservicecontent.com/F.../04f23og3e.pdf

My 2005 F350 states the same thing. I adjust mine to be lighter then unhitched. With my heavy TT and my bed weight, I make sure the rear axle helper spring is just kissing the frame bracket and I’m lighter on the front end. By having the rear overload spring just kiss the frame hanger, it acts as a rear axle roll bar and helps on the left to right movement of the truck. I have a 1,600# camper TW and 500# of truck bed weight so I can get the back of the truck down far enough to accomplish this. I also have a 7,000# rear axle rating, heavier springs then yours. If you have an empty truck bed, I’m not sure your overload will even kiss the frame bracket with all the dead weight of the camper on it. My bed weight did the trick for me.

Hope all this helps. Recent years have changed the way WD is set and most of the WD hitch manufactures now align with the truck manufactures.

John

[Torskdoc423]

I've driven 911's and Corvairs over the years and boy, am I familiar with "oversteer" even if it is caused by rear end swap.





I took the rig down to the fire station and got permission to put it on the 150ft sq Helo pad (10" thick concrete and level in all directions. ) No Dust-off's scheduled or unscheduled. Had 3 min to get off if required.



Measurements are from the top of the wheel well, vertically thru the center of the wheel wells and marks in the center of the bumper in the middle of the small vinyl strip above the plate and below the chrome bumper FWD, and in middle of vinyl strip behind the bumper ball hole. Measurements in ( ) are Bumper measurements


5 minutes wait after resetting for next (each) measurement.



OFFSET btwn wheel well and bumper measurements less than 1/32".

UNHITCHED completely

FRONT......38-1/4" (28-1/4")
Rear.........40.00" (20.5")


Hitched on BALL ONLY (NO EQ) TRLR Height at CORNERS of Body

FRONT.......38-5/8" ( 28-5/8").............................16-15/16"
REAR........38-1/2" (18.0")...............................18-1/16"
Truck Nose High 3/8"



Hitched with EQ. 4 Links from loose end of Chain.
FRONT.........38-1/2" (28-1/2").............................17-13/16" Trailer

REAR..........38-5/8" (18-1/8")..............................17-1/2" Nose High by 5/16"

Truck nose high by 1/4"



Hitched with EQ. 5 Links from loose end of Chain
FRONT.........38-3/8" (28-3/8")............................ 18-1/2"
REAR..........38-3/4" (18-14")............................. 17-1/4"
Truck Nose High by 1/8" from unhitched. Trailer nose high 1-1/4"









If I go any lower on the ball mount height, I'll be scraping going over gulleys at parking lots, etc. Looks like my initial assessment was in the ball park with regard to vehicle height/sag. 4 links puts me nose high (front measurement) from unhitched by 1/4, with the trailer Nose high by 5/16". If I go 5 links I'll still be nose high 1/8" (light load only), but the trailer is setting nose high 1-1/4". I'll go with 4 links for now. But I'll remeasure when loaded.



Looks like I have some light reading to do....LOL!



Larry

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Torskdoc423

UNHITCHED completely

FRONT......38-1/4" (28-1/4")
Rear.........40.00" (20.5")

Hitched on BALL ONLY (NO EQ) TRLR Height at CORNERS of Body

FRONT.......38-5/8" ( 28-5/8").............................16-15/16"
REAR........38-1/2" (18.0")...............................18-1/16"
Truck Nose High 3/8"

Hitched with EQ. 4 Links from loose end of Chain.
FRONT.........38-1/2" (28-1/2").............................17-13/16" Trailer

REAR..........38-5/8" (18-1/8")..............................17-1/2" Nose High by 5/16"

Truck nose high by 1/4"

Hitched with EQ. 5 Links from loose end of Chain
FRONT.........38-3/8" (28-3/8")............................ 18-1/2"
REAR..........38-3/4" (18-14")............................. 17-1/4"
Truck Nose High by 1/8" from unhitched. Trailer nose high 1-1/4"

If I go any lower on the ball mount height, I'll be scraping going over gulleys at parking lots, etc. Looks like my initial assessment was in the ball park with regard to vehicle height/sag. 4 links puts me nose high (front measurement) from unhitched by 1/4, with the trailer Nose high by 5/16". If I go 5 links I'll still be nose high 1/8" (light load only), but the trailer is setting nose high 1-1/4". I'll go with 4 links for now. But I'll remeasure when loaded.

Hi Larry,

Your front end being higher than unhitched from the numbers above, points to you are lighter on the front end then when unhitched. This is good, no front end squat. Is that correct?

With your scale error issue originally, I did not see re-weighed with the good scale (unless I missed it) what the total camper weighed and then just the tongue weight. Do you have those numbers? and what is the size rating of your WD bars?

This hitch of yours "looks like" a Reese or older Draw-tite trunnion bar hitch. It is a good hitch. This is a pic from your post a page or so back. Not sure how it is exactly adjusted now.


The WD drop shank you are using, another good one I like the older Reese/Draw-tite ones, shows you have some more room to lower the hitch head. Again, that may not be where you are now. My point being, you can lower the head to the last hole and the ground clearance will not change any. The end of the shank is the crash point with the ground. In your current setup, is the hitch shank your ground crash point or the end of the WD bars?

That style WD hitch requires a minimum of 5 links "under tension" to not have the WD chains bind up in the snap up bracket in turns.

This pic, again from a few pages back, shows 5 links free and 6 links under tension.


If you are at 4 links free, then that would be 7 links under tension, again if I have all that right from your wording and pics. I go by links under tension as Reese/Draw-tite over the years keeps changing how many links they give you. And links under tension is what creates the WD effect on the truck. The newer hitches from them have fewer links. Must be a cost savings thing I guess.

In your case with 5 links free or 4 links free, you still have enough links under tension to not be a binding issue. Here is a cut from the older Reese/Draw-Tite instructions showing the binding I'm talking about.


I'll pass this along to help the cause if you ever need it as a rule of thumb, since you have the serrated washer hitch head tilt, about 2 teeth "back" towards the camper tilt comes close to 1 chain link of tension. So 1 tooth tilt back is 1/2 a chain link of tension. This can help when 1 chain link more is too much.

If you ever end up approaching 5 links under tension area and need more weight shifted to the front of the truck, then stay at 5 links and tilt the head back a tooth or more to gain the needed WD. Those hitch heads can tilt up to 15 degrees to the back.


Hope this helps. Good idea on the fire dept pad. You scored on that one.

John

[Torskdoc423]

When I put on the wd bars, I've always counted from the free end of the chain. So 4 or 5 links for me is from the free end of the chain.



The trunnion bar is the one I got in 94 when I got the Innsbruck. 1000# wd bars , the original the hitch mount has 1000# &1200# settings for the hitch pin. I keep it on the 1200 setting. The hitch mount shown I got a few months back before I did the lift reduction. The original mount is back on now, it doesn't drag. Plus with the new mount, the trailer was either too high in front or too low. There wasn't a happy medium.



We're camping right now. Rig drove fine, although crosswinds on bridges un-nerved me. 13.5mpg which is better than I expected. Scales had a line at the truck stop 8 trucks long and when I went in the gal said Monday morning worst time. When I came back out 3 more trucks in line. I'll hit scales on way back friday.

[Torskdoc423]

Back home. Trailer and Truck did fine. No binding of chains (I always hated that sound when the chains popped when turning). Nice level, minimal bounce, and got 13.4 coming back. This is with 4 links from free end. One thing I did notice is the pin cross hole in the truck receiver is beginning to elongate and the trunnion has an (to me) excessive amount of lateral play in it. Maybe time for a new receiver. Other than that absolutely no problems. Was one of 2 Sunny's at the park. The other one was a older 18-20ft. Everyone else had jayco's, Wilderness, etc from Thor. There was one SHASTA (which surprised me) that appeared to be a restored 20ft from mid 70's. Very nicely done.



Never did hit the scales on way back. Her father had a heart procedure y'day and it was more important than getting rig weight.



We go back out in 3 weeks for another week (Greenbrier State Park near Hagerstown). I'll try to get the rig weight before that.

[JohnB]

On the truck reciever, the 5/8 pin hole wear can come from a few things.

One is, long term use towing with a "bent pin" style pin. One tow vehicle ago on my 2500 Suburban, I upgraded the receiver to a new Putman brand heavier receiver. After a while I started to notice the 5/8 pin hole was swedgeing elongated in not that old of a receiver. Doing some research on it, other guys were reporting the same issue, just theirs were worn lots more then mine. By looking at their wear, I just noticed mine sooner in the wear life progression. Let go, it could be a lot worse.

The is what I started to see, hard to see in the pic, but the paint is cracked on the bottom area and the hole is starting to elongate.




Then I put the pin in the hole and saw the issue. My pin had a bend mark (depression) in the pin that lines right up with the bottom of the hole. I have other pins and while it does not have the depression, the bend area is still a problem. The pin can vibrate into that condition close up tight position with the pin sliding left to right, then you are pulling on a non round surface.


The bend impression lines right up with the cracked paint


Here is the inside. You can see you are not pulling against a full round surface so the pin is not fully supported to have the receiver wear even.


Once I realized the issue, a stainless hose clamp came to the rescue to keep the pin from walking over that far.


I sold the truck a few years later when the bigger camper came. But on the F350, I had to upgrade the stock Ford receiver to allow for more loaded tongue weight on our T310SR. I started out using the hose clamp from new and we have over 30K miles on just the camper towing with it and very little wear. Plus about 5 to 8K more with my flat bed hauling weight.

Not sure how many miles is on your truck or how many towing miles it had on it to get to the stage you are in, but the wear can add up. They make many different aftermarket receivers that will bolt right on. Curt makes a really good one, still made in the USA, their xtra duty line. https://www.curtmfg.com/trailer-hitc...ss-5-xtra-duty if you are staying on 2". They also make 2 1/2"

Have installed two of them in the last few years and I was very impressed with the build quality. I have the Reese, 2 1/2" receiver and it too is very good. But they were made in the USA back in 2007. I'm not sure the current day ones are.

I will pass on one thing if you are changing out the receiver on the F350, hoping you have 3/4" drive socket tools or at least one real long breaker bar on 1/2". The good grade bolts Ford used along with the lock tite, they fought you to the last thread. Ford used 18 mm bolts. A 1/2" impact wrench just bounced off of them and did nothing. Here is a post with some pics of the process. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f...rade-8841.html

Hope this helps

John

[Torskdoc423]

As for the pin, I see that same wear in the bent pin on all my hitches, so I bought a locking straight pin for the W.D., as I leave the hitch on the truck during pulling season. Makes for a great tailgating deterrent!! I really like the Engine braking ( HA-HA) in the 6.0 in Tow-Haul mode downhill. Minimal brake usage on some pretty steep hills.



Just finished the 2nd trip. 85 miles to Greenbrier state park in Boonsboro Md. We got there early and couldn't get in, so off to Hagerstown and the CAT Scales. My notations on the individual sheets are "With EQ" (c with a line above it is with) 5 links free (6 tensioned). I went by habit(not thinking again) and put it on 5 links free (6 tensioned). Didn't notice it until after 1st weigh. Then without eq (dropped the bars to ground disconnected). Then truck only.



I had gotten back to truck step on the 1st weighwhen she told me ok come on in and get 1st ticket. 2nd ticket I didn't get back to truck fast enough.....Cant get the truck up far enough to hit button without going over the joint btwn scales and still stay in truck.

So 1st weigh, me on step.

2nd weigh, me on sidelines. I weighed 207.4 on Sunday.

3rd weigh, me on step.


Pics;


GVWR Rating tag (FORD)


Weigh sheets from Cat Scale.



Calculations from Actual Weights - Travel Trailer/Bumper Pull Weights from CAT Scales - TowingPlanner I screenshot it in 4 pieces with some overlap.












After I got off scales and re-connected trailer I set the links to 4 links free (7 tensioned). Also ran that way home. It felt looser to me on the highway at 62 mph (spd limit 70). Semi's affected the rig more (suck in a bit as they went by) so I started watching the left mirror more. I'd hug the shoulder side more as they went by and the "SUCK" was a lot less.



6 tensioned and it didn't seem to affect it as much. Unless I get it custom set and welded I don't see way around either too tight or too loose. 2" rear lift blocks might be a partial solution on the truck, but then I still have to try and keep the trailer level. The longer hitch mount doesn't have the side ribbing that the Reese has so it's non adjustable for the ball angle.



All in all the rig handled well. Had a couple new to trailering try and pull in next to us. Didn't know how to back it in. Gave them a lesson on backing with a trailer (hands on bottom of wheel and which ever way you want back of trailer to go is way you move hands and wheel). I suggested at home get some cones and find an empty parking lot. Set up cones 2 ft from each corner and then pull up perpendicular to length, and back it in. Practice makes perfect (or as close as possible without back and fill).


Next trip 60 miles to Codurus State Park in PA. Aug 2nd.

[JohnB]

Hi Larry,

Sorry, I missed this thread of yours somehow. I may have viewed the forum on my phone and looked briefly at the post, it then turns off the yellow marker that it was an unread post. And when I log in on the PC, it does not show as a new post and a senior moment happened, I forgot...

I will try and help, rather late, but still will pass this along.

If I understand your post correctly, the weight slip 2 (truck & camper with no WD engaged) did not include your 208# of weight. (I rounded you up ).

So I did a little math for you and created an estimated axle weight split of you standing the on the running board at the driver seat. You said, standing on the step and not on the step, and I took that to be the step at the drivers door.

Next, I pulled out my Ford 2005 source book that I have on my truck. I made an assumption, my 2005 should be close enough to your 2004 to not greatly affect this. Going with that, I used these variables.

* Your F350 is a crew cab short bed and 4 x 4. This would have a 156.2" wheel base. For the calc's. I rounded the WB to 156"

*You were standing approx in the middle of the driver side door on the step would put your 208#: 57" behind the front axle and 99" in front of the rear axle.

If those 2 assumption are way off, then what I am going to show you will be off as well. Please confirm.

Using those dimensions and 208# of weight, this comes out to adding 132# to the front axle and 76# to the rear axle on weight set 2.

Corrected weights for weights 2 are then.

Truck & Camper hitched, no WD engaged
Front axle: 4,240 132 = 4,372 #
Rear axle: 4,600 + 76 = 4,676#
TT axle: 4,960# (remains the same)
GCW, truck and camper = 13,800 + 208 = 14,008

Using those numbers, your camper comes out with 6,008 # GVW with a 1,048# loaded tongue weight. I did this by hand and then plugged it into the web calculator. Here are the screen shots.



Next page


Your added 208#'s changed the numbers some

Loaded Tongue weight: Was, 840# and now is 1,048#
TT GVW: Was 5,800# and now is 6,008 #

Those 2 changes are inside all the camper, and truck ratings.

If you have 1,000# WD bars, by the sticker rating you are slightly over. But remember there is truck scale error in these figures, +/- 20# or even +/- 50# on an 80,000# semi is a decimal point. At this point, we can say you are at the full rating of the WD bars. The ride will be the best it can be when you are at the rating of the bars, assuming the truck WD is optimized.

Now lets look at the truck front end numbers with the adjusted 208# weight added in.

Truck and camper hitched with WD engaged. The 5 links free (6 tensioned) adds 80# more to the front end then unhitched axle weight. (4,660 - 4,580= 80)

Truck and camper hitched with "No" WD. The dead weight of the camper removes 208# (by odd chance) from the front axle. (4,580-4372 = 20

And then you stated this

Originally Posted by Torskdoc423

After I got off scales and re-connected trailer I set the links to 4 links free (7 tensioned). Also ran that way home. It felt looser to me on the highway at 62 mph (spd limit 70). Semi's affected the rig more (suck in a bit as they went by) so I started watching the left mirror more. I'd hug the shoulder side more as they went by and the "SUCK" was a lot less.

6 tensioned and it didn't seem to affect it as much. Unless I get it custom set and welded I don't see way around either too tight or too loose. 2" rear lift blocks might be a partial solution on the truck, but then I still have to try and keep the trailer level. The longer hitch mount doesn't have the side ribbing that the Reese has so it's non adjustable for the ball angle.

All in all the rig handled well.

If I have this right, what you are feeling in the truck when you change to one link less WD, go from 5 links free (6 tension) to 4 links free (7 links tension) that the truck moves around more, a looser feeling. I can see that happening.

Without scale weights or fender heights to go by, I cannot look at the truck suspension loading on the 4 free links but I can make some comments.

I agree, your truck even as big as it is, can feel a trailer of that size when the WD and or anti-sway system is not optimal. I have felt the same thing on my F350 on a camper very similar in size and weight to yours when the hitch setup was not optimized.

I "thought" you changed WD shanks when you lowered the truck and I can't find a pic of your current WD hitch setup. Any chance of post a pic of the current setup? Both left and right side shots.

Are you using any form of anti sway system? A friction anti sway bar or other?

The hitch shank, you are stating it is a welded setup, which must be the head to the shank I assume. And with that you can't you tilt the head back towards the trailer any?

The WD settings will affect the front end truck response and I believe you found this out. An anti-sway device or lack of also plays into this.

You mentioned doing a lift on the truck to help correct this, I myself would address this issue in the hitch setup and anti-sway system. A 2" lift changes a number of other things. You seem to have a Reese tilting WD hitch head, this one, just you are not using that head and shank now.


Have you considered buying a different shank for it and using that Reese tilting head? This would allow you to adjust the head tilt so you can dial in the WD between whole link settings. The right shank then will still be able to get the camper very close to level when towing if you have enough holes in the right location for up and down. On the Reese serrated washer head tilt, 2 teeth are very close to 1 whole link of WD change. This allows you finer setting on the WD then whole link changes.

Let me know if I have missed something on your setup. Your truck and that camper with the right hitch and anti sway settings can tow very well.

Hope this helps

John

[Torskdoc423]

John; Thanks for looking. In answer to your questions.


1.) Weight #2 DID NOT INCLUDE MY WEIGHT (208#)


2.) Standing on the Step approx middle of Door and hanging on.



3.) Fender Heights as stated in earlier posts (fire house measurements). The LONG Shank on the older pics is too long now with the 1" Lift. and the adjustments are either above or below those of the 54970 Shank. So I swapped back to the 54970 shank before the last trip and weighing truck/trailer.


4.) Pics of Original setup from when I got the 1994 Innsbruck. I transferred it all to the Sunny. I use the 1200# Tongue weight hole in the drawbar (shank?). The bars are not 1000# they are 1200#. I found the sales slip for the Innsbruck. And the whole thing is rated for 12,000# all up. Equates to a Reese 66002 Trunnion kit. No sway control and never had one. Suppose I could get one for next season. 1 or 2 more small trips and we're gonna close up for the year. Can't tolerate below 60*F.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Torskdoc423

John; Thanks for looking. In answer to your questions.

1.) Weight #2 DID NOT INCLUDE MY WEIGHT (208#)

2.) Standing on the Step approx middle of Door and hanging on.

3.) Fender Heights as stated in earlier posts (fire house measurements). The LONG Shank on the older pics is too long now with the 1" Lift. and the adjustments are either above or below those of the 54970 Shank. So I swapped back to the 54970 shank before the last trip and weighing truck/trailer.

4.) Pics of Original setup from when I got the 1994 Innsbruck. I transferred it all to the Sunny. I use the 1200# Tongue weight hole in the drawbar (shank?). The bars are not 1000# they are 1200#. I found the sales slip for the Innsbruck. And the whole thing is rated for 12,000# all up. Equates to a Reese 66002 Trunnion kit. No sway control and never had one. Suppose I could get one for next season. 1 or 2 more small trips and we're gonna close up for the year. Can't tolerate below 60*F.

OK, With you confirming you were standing on the step by the drivers door in the middle of the door, then the weight calcs I did for your 208# should be close to include your weight on the 2nd weight set. Your camper will have no issues with loaded tongue weight percentage. It is very good TW for towing and your truck can handle it without issue.

The Reese 54970 is the standard Reese shank. It really does not drop the hitch head very far down. And, now that you lowered the truck back to stock ride height, I'm assuming, that shank will not lower the hitch head far enough to level out the trailer. Is that correct? That is why you are using some other welded shank/head setup?

We can back into what shank is offered that will lower the hitch head down to where it needs to go and not be so long you drag the ground.

If you want to see what WD shank that may be, when you get time, get these dimensions and we can back into a few choices you can consider on a new shank. Or even find a good used one on Craig's list.

1. Truck receiver height. Load the truck bed as you would go camping with full or close to full fuel. Park the truck on level ground, and take these dimensions. Ground line up to top inside of the 2" pin box on the truck receiver. You do not have to put a shank in to do this, just measure the top inside of the pin box.


2. Trailer ball height: Level out the camper with the tongue jack on a flat level area. Measure from the ground up to the inside of the ball coupler. Or over the top of the ball coupler dome at the center of the ball area and subtract the 1/8 to 3/16" metal thickness of the coupler.

3. Ball height. Need to confirm what the ball height is on the tow ball on your WD hitch head. This is the dimension from the top of the ball, to the flat shank part of the tow ball that bottoms out top of the WD hitch head.
If the top of the ball has a flat on it, estimate to the top of the ball circle.

Here are 2 different tow balls. A Hi rise ball on the left and a more standard ball on the right. Each brand tow ball can be a little different and need to know what you would be using.


You can see here where the tow ball shank bottoms out on the hitch head. Yours may look just like this. But I can't tell the dimensions from your pics.


With those 3 dimensions, we can back into what shank will work with your older Reese trunnion hitch head. I have several of those older heads here I can measure to get the rest of the dimensions off of. Again, assuming the hitch head you want to use are those in pics. Reese changed their trunnion style head many times over the years and I am going on the 3 piece welded head you have in the pics. So if you want to use a different one, let me know.

It sounds like you have a workable temporary option for this year with your last setup running 5 links free (6 in tension). We can sort out the shank and talk a few options to consider on anti sway control for the long term.

On anti sway control, Reese offers 2 options, a friction sway bar or their top of the line, dual cam system.

It appears you have a welded on shield of sorts on top of the hitch head.


That shield will most likely interfere with their add on friction anti sway bar. That is, if you are still using that hitch head. And it will lessen how tight a turn you can make before the shield hits the frame. But, you are using the hitch now with the shield, (yes/no?) and if you do not need any more turning radius, then it will not hurt you. But the friction bar will not work on the hitch with the shield. See here how that friction bar mounts.

This is on a 2004 T2475 Sunline with my F350 on a trunnion style Reese


Here it is mocked up on a Reese trunnion style hitch like yours, just no shield on the hitch head.

A slight left turn


45 degree right turn. Your shield may hit doing this


A full hard left. Your shield will hit if this is attempted.


A full 67 degrees right turn. The max the hitch can do.


The Reese dual cam is their top of the line anti sway. It takes a bit more tweaking to get it setup, but once adjusted correctly, it works very well. This is being mounted on a 2004 T2499. The cams mount to the frame and work with the angled ends of the WD bars as a detent lock.




Is your camper a 4" tall channel iron A frame or a 5" tall channel?

Hope this helps

John

[Torskdoc423]

John, If you go up a few posts(#69 or 70 as I recall), I can get the trailer pretty much level on 4 links free and 1-1/4" nose high on 5 links free.



Ball is a Standard rise 2-5/16" Resse ball with 1" shank. The Trunnion is bottomed on the Reese Hitch mount. The Larger one (Curt) has a 11" drop as I recall. I got that when the truck had the 4" factory lift. Wasn't impressed as I could never get the trailer within 1" front to back ( in either direction). Knees are an issue climbing up into rig, as is the other 1/2's lack of height (5'2" and short legs) so why the 1" lift that is now on it.



Top of Hitch Box =17-1/4"
Ball is Standard Height 2-5/16" Diam. 3-1/4" high approx.
"A" Frame is 5" Channel.





This is how she currently sits with 5 links free.






Top of hitch box height is approx bottom of trailer corner in Front when loaded and EQ'ed with 4 links free. Trailer squats pretty equally loaded. It's down 3/16" in front from unloaded and 1/8" rear from unloaded. See below for original unloaded heights.


Originally Posted by Torskdoc423
UNHITCHED completely

FRONT......38-1/4" (28-1/4")
Rear.........40.00" (20.5")

Hitched on BALL ONLY (NO EQ) TRLR Height at CORNERS of Body

FRONT.......38-5/8" ( 28-5/8").............................16-15/16"
REAR........38-1/2" (18.0")...............................18-1/16"
Truck Nose High 3/8"

Hitched with EQ. 4 Links from loose end of Chain.
FRONT.........38-1/2" (28-1/2").............................17-13/16" Trailer

REAR..........38-5/8" (18-1/8")..............................17-1/2" Nose High by 5/16"

Truck nose high by 1/4"

Hitched with EQ. 5 Links from loose end of Chain
FRONT.........38-3/8" (28-3/8")............................ 18-1/2"
REAR..........38-3/4" (18-14")............................. 17-1/4"
Truck Nose High by 1/8" from unhitched. Trailer nose high 1-1/4"

If I go any lower on the ball mount height, I'll be scraping going over gulleys at parking lots, etc. Looks like my initial assessment was in the ball park with regard to vehicle height/sag. 4 links puts me nose high (front measurement) from unhitched by 1/4, with the trailer Nose high by 5/16". If I go 5 links I'll still be nose high 1/8" (light load only), but the trailer is setting nose high 1-1/4". I'll go with 4 links for now. But I'll remeasure when loaded.


As for the shield, I use it to determine when I'm close. It's bolted on between the ball and the trunnion and will rotate slightly when turning tight, hence the broken welds. I should pull it off and grind off the old welds as they've been broke for years without effecting operation. It just looks like ****.


The rig doesn't sway per se, the whole rig tends to push sideways in crosswinds a bit. Bridges over water are the worst. I generally abhor bridges over water, even without the trailer, and tend to cross low bridges only unless there is no other option. I'm literally scared to death of heights. Even movie shots pointing down give me the willies. I'm ok in a plane, but bridges, bldgs (over 2 stories), and ladders over 20 ft have me getting nauseous. I can dive in a Submarine and spend 3 months underwater with the sea trying it's best to find a way in thru the hull, and no problem. If I can go around 100 miles and avoid bridges, I will.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Torskdoc423

snip...

Ball is a Standard rise 2-5/16" Resse ball with 1" shank. The Trunnion is bottomed on the Reese Hitch mount. The Larger one (Curt) has a 11" drop as I recall. I got that when the truck had the 4" factory lift. Wasn't impressed as I could never get the trailer within 1" front to back ( in either direction). Knees are an issue climbing up into rig, as is the other 1/2's lack of height (5'2" and short legs) so why the 1" lift that is now on it.

Top of Hitch Box =17-1/4"
Ball is Standard Height 2-5/16" Diam. 3-1/4" high approx.
"A" Frame is 5" Channel.

Hi Larry,

Before I can do much with figuring on something to suggest with the hitch setup, I need to confirm these 2 dimensions.

1. Above you call out "top of Hitch box = 17 1/4" What are you calling the hitch box? (on the truck or camper?) The dimension of 17 1/4" sounds more like what the trailer ball height could be. But I'm not sure, is what you call hitch box the ball coupler welded on the end of the trailer A frame? Ball height on a trailer is the distance from the ground straight up vertically from the ground to the inside center of the ball coupler with the camper level. But, if the 17 1/4 is ground to "top" of ball coupler at the ball sphere center, I can work with that too as I know the coupler metal thickness and can subtract it.

2. I need the receiver height. I may have missed it, but I can't see it in your last post.

Truck receiver height. Load the truck bed as you would go camping with full or close to full fuel. Park the truck on level ground, and take these dimensions. Ground line up to top inside of the 2" pin box on the truck receiver. You do not have to put a shank in to do this, just measure the top inside of the pin box. This dimension.


And yes, I totally understand about how high up the back of a F350 is trying to get into the truck bed. I carry a 2 step, folding step ladder with me all the time. I'm not young enough any more to hop up in that truck bed without some kind of step. It's up there!

John

[Torskdoc423]

Hitch box is truck receiver.

Empty with Full load Fuel is 17-1/4".



Loaded with gear and 2 persons of approx weight as us. 17-1/8"


Ball is Standard 2-5/16 short shank. 3-1/4" total with added 1/4"(top is flat) to account for scalping.



Top of ball mount on A frame (inside) with trailer at the 4 link free level is approx 18" +/- 1/8".