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Old 01-26-2011, 02:53 PM   #1
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How Far Should The Ball Be From The Cab?

Hi All,
I am in the process of buying a 1985 F1850 gooseneck Sunline.
I need to add a gooseneck hitch to my Ranger. I hear that all hitches should be mounted an inch or two ahead of the axle but remember someone telling me that he mounted his 37 1/2" from the cab and did not hit when turning. He said that the manual said to do that.
I don't have a manual.
Does anyone here have one, or know?
I am getting the mount put on in NH then going to CT to get the trailer. I want to be sure I get it mounted properly so I don't have to redo it or hit the cab when turning.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

I don't want to add a sliding mount for $800 or so.
The pin weight is about 600 loaded and the GTW is about 3800 when loaded. Not that much for a gooseneck.

Thank You!
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:27 PM   #2
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Hi Ray,

I honestly have no idea. I have so little experience with the gooseneck side. I just know they exist and know the trailer models, but I don't know much at all about the hitching process for them. I would try to avoid were the trailer could come in contact with the cab, so I'd move it back if it were me.

I know a lady who had a '82 SunRider V 21' Deluxe and she pulled it with her Dakota. I could contact her if you can't find any hitching places that could tell you. I think your best bet would be to contact some place that sells horse trailers, since many of them are gooseneck to this day.

Jon
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:44 PM   #3
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Hi Jon,
Thanks for getting back to me. I have tried a couple of places but a lot of places that deal with goosenecks deal with the heavy ones for full size trucks and many don't even know these small goosenecks exist let alone the dimensions.

I think it might be okay behind or over the axle where it is so light but am not sure and don't want to create a danger to anyone else on the road. If she might have any info that would be helpful.
Thanks for your help.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:33 PM   #4
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Just my humble opinion, but I would seriously stay away from putting it anywhere behind the axle. Doing so, would take weight off the steering axle. The farthest back I would put it, is directly over the axle. If the camper gets close to hitting the cab, just don't turn so sharp.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:39 PM   #5
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Can't you measure from about where the pin should mount in the bed of the truck (in front of the axle) and the cab and then measure from the pin on the camper to the outside corner of the overhang? Compare the two numbers. There are some pin box extenders for some units instead of a slider but it your truck bed is to short you might have to get the slider.

Or you rtruck might be to small to handle a fifth wheel trailer. Just because you have the capacity to tow doesn't mean you have the size to tow.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:51 PM   #6
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Just my humble opinion, but I would seriously stay away from putting it anywhere behind the axle. Doing so, would take weight off the steering axle. The farthest back I would put it, is directly over the axle. If the camper gets close to hitting the cab, just don't turn so sharp.
Thanks EMD Driver, I think you may be right but 600# an inch behind the axle probably won't be worse than 250 hanging 3 1/2' behind the axle off the hitch. I am not arguing your points. these were just my thoughts.
I did not like having a heavy trailer on my receiver hitch. Scary. I think you are probably right.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:55 PM   #7
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No problem man...

I just like to err on the side of caution. Problems can arise quickly and I'd rather be safe, than sorry.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:05 PM   #8
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Can't you measure from about where the pin should mount in the bed of the truck (in front of the axle) and the cab and then measure from the pin on the camper to the outside corner of the overhang? Compare the two numbers. There are some pin box extenders for some units instead of a slider but it your truck bed is to short you might have to get the slider.

Or you rtruck might be to small to handle a fifth wheel trailer. Just because you have the capacity to tow doesn't mean you have the size to tow.
Thanks for the input Jim-Bev. That sounds like a good idea. I took measurements when i was at the camper. I was not sure exactly how to work it as far as having the corner swing by the cab. It is 7' wide, so 42" to the outside. It was 56" diagonally to the corner from the center of the ball mount but I'd have to estimate the angle, and it is changeable. The problem is that the trailer is 3 hours away so I can't just go check and compare.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:10 PM   #9
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No problem man...

I just like to err on the side of caution. Problems can arise quickly and I'd rather be safe, than sorry.
H'mm saw this "Coming soon: 1999 Ford F350XLT DRW Crew Cab, Long bed 7.3 PSD "

Gary, I take it you found one the right color?

Nessmuck, I agree being behind the axle is not a good thing. If you want to know the weight changes, give me your wheel base and I can calculate the weight changes to the axles so you can see this.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
H'mm saw this "Coming soon: 1999 Ford F350XLT DRW Crew Cab, Long bed 7.3 PSD "

Gary, I take it you found one the right color?

Nessmuck, I agree being behind the axle is not a good thing. If you want to know the weight changes, give me your wheel base and I can calculate the weight changes to the axles so you can see this.
John B, Thanks!! I have a 108" wheelbase.
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Old 01-27-2011, 07:48 PM   #11
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Hi Ness

OK here is the math. On a 108" wheel base with a 600# pin weight. This is pure static weight. "Not" dynamic weight changes of going over a bump

+ 3" forward of rear axle: Rear axle gain: 583# Front axle gain: 17#
+ 2" forward of rear axle: Rear axle gain: 588# Front axle gain: 11#
+ 1" forward of rear axle: Rear axle gain: 594# Front axle gain: 6#
+ 0" Pin right on rear axle: Rear axle gain: 600# Front axle loss/gain: 0.0#
- 1" behind rear axle: Rear axle gain: 606# Front axle loss: - 6#
- 2" behind rear axle: Rear axle gain: 611# Front axle loss: - 11#
- 3" behind rear axle: Rear axle gain: 617# Front axle loss: - 17#

Each 1" of pin movement is 5.556# of change with a 600# pin. I rounded to the nearest pound. Again this raw static weight. When you ride over a bump and the suspension starts rocking the effects are different until the ride smooths back out.

I'm not a 5th wheel hitch wizard. As far as raw static weight your 600# tongue is not real heavy as compared to larger campers. You also have a lighter truck so keep that in mind. 600# in the bed of your truck is a lot. The axle weight changes get to be bigger changes if you are talking 1,500 and 2,500# pin weights and I'm sure the dynamic surges get larger as well.

Pulling a TT with a WD hitch the spring bars help ease the dynamic weight changes. On a 5th wheel being behind the axle there is no WD bars to help.

I do not know all the back ground to the rule of having the pin forward of the rear axle. It may be more from a dynamic standpoint.

I know for me, before I would alter the rule of mounting the pin being forward of the rear axle I would research it out big time. Slider hitches change the pin to axle relationship but the truck is going slow when this occurs. I'm sure the nose of the truck is high when you can be 1 foot behind rear axle but again your going slow when this occurs. I'm sure it is not at all fun running that way at highway speeds with a 2500# pin weight in the back.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:15 PM   #12
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John, Thanks a lot for that great info.
I don't think this will work unless I can get a plate that moves the weight forward of the axle while putting the trailer behind it. I wonder if something cantilevered would work, or if I am looking for something called "magic".
I realized also that if the trailer is 7' wide that means the center point is 42" if everything is level.
That means I need to be at least that from the cab if I don't want to crush anything.
My axle appears to be about 38- 39" from the cab so I need to go farther back than that.
The person I met that towed with his Ranger may have been doing something unsafe. People have some odd ideas about what is safe towing. Probably the same people who tie a mattress with twine for a trip on the interstate.

I am still researching the topic to be sure I am correct about the way the trailer moves or that it is safe to do it some other way. Thanks for all your help. Does this formula work over a certain range? When I added my tag-along to my hitch, it added 220# or so to the rear of my truck, but did not change the front weight.

Thanks again,
Ray
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:22 PM   #13
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Hmmm.... That means if my front is 2300 and my rear is 1300, with a pin behind the axle I will still be nose heavy but closer to even. I will need to find out if this makes sense. I have carried loads like that without issue.

Of course that is static weight. Bumps can change it I know.

Where did you get the formula, if I may ask?
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Old 01-28-2011, 04:58 AM   #14
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Ray,

I do'nt know if you tried it or not but You Tube has lots of videos about fifth wheel towing. It is interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...tallation&aq=f


I wonder if there are laws that you would be breaking by using such a small truck for this camper? In my mind, "if" towing fifth wheels with your Ranger is a good thing then why aren't there more people doing it? Wouldn't hitch manufacturers have specific models for your truck? There must be a reason information is so scarce.
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:56 AM   #15
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Ray,

I do'nt know if you tried it or not but You Tube has lots of videos about fifth wheel towing. It is interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...tallation&aq=f


I wonder if there are laws that you would be breaking by using such a small truck for this camper? In my mind, "if" towing fifth wheels with your Ranger is a good thing then why aren't there more people doing it? Wouldn't hitch manufacturers have specific models for your truck? There must be a reason information is so scarce.
Doh! Thanks, good idea.
There are fifth wheel and gooseneck set ups for Rangers and other small trucks still made, but most places only know about the heavy duty variety of parts because that is what most people use goosenecks and 5th wheels for.
I think that the lack of info comes more from the lack of small gooseneck and 5th wheel trailers. There are other companies that make them. or did, besides Sunline but there are very few and they made very few small GN or 5W trailers each year. I also think that with this trailer being so old, there is not enough info around on it. I think that may also be why more people are not doing it. It could also be the bed length on short bed trucks. Icould get a slide but paying $800 to $1000 to tow a $1500 trailer on a $3000 truck probably won't be worth it.
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Old 01-28-2011, 10:45 AM   #16
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A good excuse for a bigger truck.
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:00 PM   #17
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Checking on this:
Fifth Wheel Hitch Complete
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:01 PM   #18
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A good excuse for a bigger truck.
I am way too cheap for that!
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:24 PM   #19
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Where did you get the formula, if I may ask?

Does this formula work over a certain range? When I added my tag-along to my hitch, it added 220# or so to the rear of my truck, but did not change the front weight.
Hi Ray

To the 1st question the formula is known as calculating moments about a point. Where I got it was from my old text book, Statics and Strength of Materials by Irving Levinson printed in 1971. If you look at this post I showed Frank how I was doing this when he was working out how to figure weight and balance on his camper. Read down about 3 replies where I showed Frank this formula.

http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f6...t-11053-2.html

Does the formula work over a certain range? Yes it works over what ever length you can dream up providing the beam or truck bed does not collapse from the length. Like a 100 foot steel beam. If the beam cannot take the loads it will buckle and give way if it is not strong enough. There are no limits to length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessmuk View Post
John, Thanks a lot for that great info.
I don't think this will work unless I can get a plate that moves the weight forward of the axle while putting the trailer behind it. I wonder if something cantilevered would work, or if I am looking for something called "magic".
I “think” I know what you are asking but there are some issues with what you are stating/wanting. If you want to bolt a plate says 3 inches forward of the axle and then extend back behind the axle say 6” unless the plate was never touching the truck bed except for the mounting point the weight will still apply in the truck bed where ever the pin load touches the truck bed. A plate will spread it out more even but it will not shift the load up to the bolting place unless you have some real heavy beam that will not flex under it’s load and not touch the truck bed.

If you get past that, this beam also comes with a lever effect trying to rip the plate out of it’s mounting location. A 600# pin weight hanging on a 12” long lever is 600 ft lb’s of static torque into the truck bed where it is bolted. Dynamic loads may be 3 times that or more. That is a fair amount for a sheet metal truck bed. While not impossible to do into the truck frame it needs to be heavy enough and thought thru.

The real issue is while you may have moved the loaded mounting point you now have a lever effect of the pin weight behind the axle still. The lever effect is going to still trying and will lift weight up off the front of the truck. You really did not move the problem.

If the camper is 7 foot (84”) and the cab to rear axle is 39. So if you ever wanted to do 90 degrees turn you need 42” to just scrape paint. However in a travel trailer I can only turn 74 degrees before I put the propane tanks into the truck bumper. I would love to turn 90 degrees but have not yet ever in all our TT camping as I can’t.

Maybe one of our 5th wheel towing folks can say how many time they turn 90 degrees. The issue is more magnified by how far behind the front of the camper the pin is. If the pin is forward of the front wall, you can turn more then if it is a few inches behind the front wall. Ideally take a tape measure place 0 on the ball coupler and then swing the tape measure in an arc and see where the width of your truck will hit the side of the camper. That angle would be the max you can turn.

I don’t know if any of this helps, but hopefully it plants some seeds of things to think thru

Hope this helps

John

PS You mentioned you have 220# on a tag along hitch and it diod not move weight off the front end. You mean towing on a ball in the truck bumper or receiver? If so, yes you removed weight off the front of the truck and added more then 220# to the real axle. If you can give me the rear axle overhang, distance from rear axle center to tow ball, I can tell you the axle changes. Use the same formulas. The weight moved, it just maybe you did not see a large change but the fenders heights did change
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:03 AM   #20
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John,
Thanks for all the input. Now that I think of it, after towing for a few thousand miles the outer edges of my tires were choppy. I remember thinking it was due to the reduced weight on the front end.

I did find out that Scamp, which still makes gooseneck trailers for small vehicles uses a hitch that bolts only to the bed, not the frame, of the tow vehicle. Talking to the parts manager, he said that they have had accidents where the trucks and trailers were damaged, but have never had a hitch tear out.
Their campers are 100# lighter on the pin and 500# lighter GTW. (That means I weigh 25% more, but is still only 500#) They also place the hitch directly over the axle in most cases, depending on the truck.
They deliver their gooseneck trailers all over the country on a 1998 Ranger 5 speed with that hitch in the same bed I have.
Their trailers are 4" narrower and curved in the front so that helps with turning.
I just thought people may be interested in what a company that is currently making these small trailers is doing. I'll keep posting what I find and would still appreciate any input that is offered.
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