Replace Black and gray tanks

[pamwinn]

We would like to replace the black and gray waste tanks with larger capacity tanks on our 2363. Is this possible? If so, any hints on where to start?

[frank]

Originally Posted by pamwinn

We would like to replace the black and gray waste tanks with larger capacity tanks on our 2363. Is this possible? If so, any hints on where to start?

It would be a fairly big job. I wouldnt call it extremely difficult, but certainly labor intensive. There's a lot of work that would need to be done, a good portion of it laying under the coach.

You also need to keep weight in the equation. Water is pretty heavy stuff at around 7 pounds per gallon. Adding any significant capacity is going to be quite heavy.

If your 2363 is anything like my '02, there is certainly a little bit more room under there. The grey tank has quite a bit of room around it. Guessing off the top of my head, you might be able to work another 10 gallons of grey in just by going to a "wider" tank.

First step would be to measure what you have, then measure out for available space. Then you would need to shop around for tanks that would fit that space and work out new mounting arrangements. Most likely, at the least, new mounting brackets would need to be fabricated. Weight will come into play here as well - at minimum you would want to keep the tank weight centered in the same position as it is currently.

The new tanks would have to be drilled and bungs installed (in the correct places) to accept the existing drain plumbing and the vent stacks. The dump plumbing would need to be re-run from the new tanks to the side of the coach. Sensor probes would need to be installed and wired.

A waste tote might be a much easier (and more economical) option.

- Frank

[Honda03842]

How much additional capacity do you want? How much do you have?

If I were considering larger tanks, I would consider adding additional tanks, leaving the present tanks in place. Then you don't have to worry about all the issues discribed in the previous post.

I'm not aware of the layout of yur trailer but it may be possible to tap into the grey and black drain pipes before the valves to connect into the systems of the existing tanks.

Norm Milliard

[Honda03842]

I don't know your tank capacities, but it appears that the black and gray tanks in the larger trailers are similar in capacity.

Our Sunline has a 25 gallon gray tank and a 10 gallon black tank. It turns out that we can dry camp for four days without dumping if we're not careful and almost a week if we're careful. We have filled the gray tank but never the black. Of course we rarely take showers in the little trailer; one of the reasons we're looking for a T-1661.

In our motorhome we have 50 gallon black and 50 gallon gray tanks. What some people do, since they never fill their black tanks, is make a by-pass that allows them to put some gray water into their black tank.

This is pretty easy to do in a motorhome.

Norm Milliard

Norm Milliard

[pamwinn]

According to the specs, the black and gray are 25 gallons each. We do shower in the trailer and even though we both try to be conservative, it just doesn't make it. We stayed in a State Park for 5 nights and had to take the trailer to the dump station on day 3. The gray was full because the bath tub held water after my shower, the black said it was 3/4 full but I am doubting the reading on that. I know that a lot of men bypass the trailer plumbing and choose the great outdoors for somethings but I do not let my husband do that. Even though we've had the trailer for a couple of years now, I still think we are newbies and maybe we just aren't doing something correctly.

We stopped at campingworld and took a look at the totes but talked ourselves out of it.

I am much more concerned with having enough black capacity than I am gray. Although I prefer to use the shower I own, we could theoretically use the public ones. I usually do in real nice RV resorts but the state parks can be a little creepy sometimes and I have been frozen and scalded on more than one occasion.

[Steve Collins]

Some thinking out loud here....

In some ways, I like the idea of adding secondary tanks rather than replacing the existing ones. But I do see some real challenges in doing that:

First, both add-on tanks would need to be vented. If it's not possible to run a vent line from the new tank to the existing vent stack, you'd have to install separate vent stacks from the new tank to the roof of the trailer. Depending on location, that could be fairly easy or a real beast of a job. Adding a new, separate vent stack also includes punching through the roof.

Second, a secondary gray water tank is much less of a problem in terms of drainage, but a secondary black water tank could be very difficult. If it is not plumbed properly, "solids" could get into the secondary tank and not have a reliable way to be drained away by gravity.

A lot of these issues would depend on the available space under the trailer and the room to route drain lines and vent stacks. The physical layout of some rigs might lend themselves to a fairly easy install of secondary tanks, while others may prove very difficult if not impossible.

Gray water is very easy to deal with via the "little blue totes." We just picked up a 25 gallon one this summer, and it has made our life much easier when we dry camp.

Black water is the problem. The "little blue totes" are not really recommended for black water removal (said so right in the instructions that came with ours.) It can be done, but there is a high potential for a spill, and a black water spill in your campsite is not fun to deal with.

So, based on all this thinking out loud, my thoughts would be:

a. Get a blue tote for gray water and leave the gray water tank in the TT alone.

b. It may well be possible to either swap out the black water tank for a bigger one, or to properly add a secondary tank that will drain correctly. But it will require that someone knowledgeable and trustworthy look at the specific TT and give a realistic idea of which plan would work and how much it would cost.

Or, adopt some strategies for making your black water tank last for a longer period of time.

[Honda03842]

I truly doubt that a couple could fill a 25 gallon black tank in a week.

If you want you can run a toilet test at home. Fill (as you would use it) and Flush the toilet until the tank is really full.

(You won't be able to flush it any more when it's full) and see how many flushes you get. (In actuality these toilets use very little water.) That will give you a rough estimation of how many days you can get out of the black tank.

If you need an additional tank, I would guess it's for the grey tank. Certainly a blue tote does the job easily and inexpensively.

If you carefully add an additional grey tank correctly you should be able to get away with the existing vent.

As to grey and black tank gauges I have yet to see any that work correctly for very long.

Norm Milliard

[pamwinn]

So, if the gauges are unreliable, how do you really know when the black is full? I am afraid of a disaster. The water backup in the shower does not really concern me like a blackwater backup would. I think I'd have to sell the trailer.

[Honda03842]

First dump the black tank before the test. If you're concerned you can flush the tank with clear water before the test.

Use clear water for the test.

Fill and Flush the tank until the water won't go down. It will take a lot of flushes because I expect that the typical flush uses a quart of water.

When the tank is full, you'll simply be left with the water you last put in the bowl because it won't go down. I predict that it'll be 75 to 100 flushes since the typical liquid flush takes little water.

Once done, you can dump a black tank virtually full of clear water.

If you do the test please report on the number of flushes.

Thank you,

Norm

[Honda03842]

Black water does not back up like the gray water. It's only exit is via the toilet so the worse event is you can't flush. Actually though I've never tried to look, when you flush the toilet at least in mine, you can almost hear how full the tank is.

Norm

[kanyonkitty]

You can also hold the "blade" of the toilet open(even easier if you turn off the water supply to the tolet) and look into the tank with a flashlight to see how high the tank level is.

Kitty

[nasa42a]

pamwinn........

In our experience, the sensors eventually get coated and are unreliable.....and we never use 'em.
Kitty's flashlight method works accurately every time (for us, too). You can see when you've only got space for a few more flushes....so there's no risk.

Frank

[pamwinn]

Hey Norm, When we thaw out, I think I want to try the flush test. Not that we'd be able to keep up with it on a camping trip but it would be interesting and I'd like to know how many flushes it takes to read full vs how many flushes it takes to be full.

I think I am going to try some of the sensor cleaning tricks I have read about here and elsewhere as well.

[JohnB]

My black tank sensors do work all the time, however I do not really trust them for full. The full is reached before it is actually full. About 1 to 2” of usable tank still left it seems in our tank. I use the flashlight method with the pump off. I can tell where the end of the fitting is going in the tank. I can see it, DW has trouble seeing it. Since I know the plumbing it might give me an edge as I “think” she sees a reflection in the water and can’t tell.

Now what do I do to keep the sensors working? A few things. Part of this is what you do for tank control. This is what we do.

Start with 3 gallons of water in the tank at camp setup. I say 3 gallons as that is the size of my water carrying jug. This fills the bottom to be wet and starts floating solids or worse “the paper” when they arrive.

I use Arm and Hammer washing soda to soften the water. I just drop a scoop full in. This really makes everything slide out easy and things don’t tend to stick as bad.

I’m from the camp that uses bacteria and enzymes as a tank treatment. Often times we flush at home into my aerator tank and I do not want to use chemicals that try and preserve waste. They are enemies of aerator septic system. I have used Happy Campers product http://www.5starhappycamper.com/ and now use Sea Zyme. http://www.sea-zyme.com/ Both work well for us.

And now the most important thing. I have tank sprayers. I flush the tank well after every campout. Prior to the tank sprayers the hose and wand came out.

Hope this helps

John

PS In looking up the Happy Campers site, they now list a product to remove tank buildup.

[pamwinn]

By tank sprayers, do you mean something like the sewer solution? That is what we use, though my husband is now looking for something better.

[Honda03842]

Pamwinn,

I did a first order test on my toilet which has a ten gallon tank. It looks like about 80 flushes. By extension I would guess you would get 160 to 200 flushes with your 25 gallon tank.

Norm

[pamwinn]

Lol....some flushes take longer than others. Then there is the TP. Does that count as 2 or 3 flushes?

[Honda03842]

Even if each flush is twice what I used, It still means with your trailer you'll get 100 flushes. I think you'll find that your black tank is adequate. I do believe the gray tank is the issue.

Norm

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by pamwinn

By tank sprayers, do you mean something like the sewer solution? That is what we use, though my husband is now looking for something better.

No, not the sewer solution. Like the spayers that goes in the side of the tank.

Here see my install. Tank sprayers install

John

[Honda03842]

We've kept a piece of paper on the wall in the bathroom and have made a mark each time we've used the toilet. After 7 days we've used it 64 times and is not near full. Our black tank has a ten gallon capacity.

We're leaving in the morning and will be ending the test.

Norm Milliard
1982 Sunline 15.5 SB
2004 Honda CRV