Propane Regulator

JerryJ · 05-17-2016, 08:01 PM

Last year I was playing around with my oven's thermostat. I couldn't get that silly thing to fire up, not even the pilot. Naturally, I thought I had a defective thermostat. I took it apart and everything looked 100%, cleaned this and cleaned that. All 3 burners did work. The 3 burners and oven thermostat all work from the same manifold. Head scratcher as we all second guess ourselves. I did notice that the 3 burners all had a bit of a wimpy flame even when turned up high. Then a few weeks ago we went camping up north for that moose hunt (picture taking). Trust me it was cold. I fired up the propane furnace and the heat output was also wimpy. I've only used the fridge on propane once and the flame was not all that strong. As for the water heater I could only hear the burner but could not see the flame.
Looking back it seems that not everything was dying by virtue of a weak flame.
Now I'm starting to think my propane regulator has packed it in. I googled several websites and youtube for theories and found that these regulator are only good for roughly 10 years. Apparently the rubber diaphragms get weak, or break, or crack or pinholes. Umm mine is 31 years old. and as far as I know it's the original, but can't say for sure. I also tried to make adjustment and watch a stove burner flame It did not go up or down, just stayed low

Have any of you guys had similar situations where you found a regulator could be my problem and my fix? I don't want to buy a new one on a guess It take a manometer to test inches of water column and I don't have one or access to one.

Installing a new one could take 2 minutes max and no issue

jim44646 · 05-18-2016, 07:43 AM

I've had year old regulators go bad. Look at it this way, if you buy a new regulator and that's not the problem, then you'll have a spare if it conks out in the back woods.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-18-2016, 01:10 PM

I think JohnB did a post about checking LP pressures. Maybe he can chime in here.

Gene · 05-18-2016, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryJ

....It take a manometer to test inches of water column and I don't have one or access to one....

It is not hard to build your own. I suspected a problem and built a real crude one.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...ved-15099.html

Here is a link to a much better one by JohnB:
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...cks-10981.html

A trip to Lowes/Home Depot and a few dollars in parts and you are all set.

JerryJ · 05-18-2016, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene

It is not hard to build your own. I suspected a problem and built a real crude one.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...ved-15099.html

Here is a link to a much better one by JohnB:
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...cks-10981.html

A trip to Lowes/Home Depot and a few dollars in parts and you are all set.

I read all the posts in your other post section. Wow !! Very informative.

All roads lead to Rome as your analysis has pointed to my 31 year old regulator (if it's the original)
Difference being, what you folks in the USA pay for things versus what we pay. My regulator is $75 + taxes. A local RV shop wants $129/hr to check my water column. Ya, you can hear my thoughts from there.... right?

I fired up the propane portion of the fridge earlier this afternoon. Again the electric portion has always been very cold. Since I seldom ever used the propane this fridge test will be the determining factor, manometer or no manometer. I put a few bottles of water in the fridge for some substance of cooling. I'll check it first thing in the morning.
I fired up the propane furnace and the heat blowing from that today was weak at best, low burner flames...it all kind of adds up to low inches WC.

This might also answer why my oven never did work and by the looks of it the oven has never been used since the day it was installed, circa 1985, LOL we used it for bread and bun storage

I'll update the info as it becomes relevant. Thanks Gene and Jim

JerryJ · 05-19-2016, 07:57 AM

This is one of the regulators that a supplier suggested.
Marshall Products AUTO CHANGEOVER REGULATOR BULK MEGR-253
The question came up about whether or not it's a high capacity or low. I wasn't really sure, but the more I'm learning, the more I feel a high capacity simply means it's able to run fridge, stove, oven and furnace without flinching In other words the inches WC won't drop so low that it's deemed useless.

I checked the fridge, after running all night, and the amount of cold that I felt on the water bottles kind of equals the amount of flame on the furnace and 3 burner stove, weak or wimpy (if you will)

I also read where we should be using Teflon tape specifically for propane applications. It's cheap enough so buy the proper tape.

Unless someone disagrees with my assessment then I'll order the regulator. BTW do they come preset at 11"? If not, I suppose I could adjust the new regulator (within reason) and judge it by the stove flame height. Would that sound correct?

Thanks to JohnB, Jim and Gene for all your help

Gene · 05-19-2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryJ

... My regulator is $75 + taxes. A local RV shop wants $129/hr to check my water column. Ya, you can hear my thoughts from there.... right?...

YUP!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryJ

This is one of the regulators that a supplier suggested.
Marshall Products AUTO CHANGEOVER REGULATOR BULK MEGR-253
The question came up about whether or not it's a high capacity or low. ....

That is the one I ended up with. First I put in a Camco but my wife said she could hear it whistling while I was using the grill so I found the Marshall one online... but at a much lower price. The Marshall Excelsior is identical to the former Marshall Gas which went out of business. The MEGR 253H is a high putput at 350,000 BTU/hour and the MEGR 253 is 225,00 BTU/hour which should handle everthing in the camper.

Yes, it should come preset to 11 inches WC.

As for the teflon tape, there is a yellow teflon tape used for gas. Don't use it on the 1/4 inch flare fitting from the tanks. Do use it on the 3/8 inch outlet to the camper.

**JohnB** · 05-20-2016, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryJ

Unless someone disagrees with my assessment then I'll order the regulator. BTW do they come preset at 11"? If not, I suppose I could adjust the new regulator (within reason) and judge it by the stove flame height. Would that sound correct?

Hi Jerry,

To your question about adjusting the regulator, from my experience I will say no, you do not want to adjust the regulator without a manometer or gas pressure gauge. By the time the regulator needs to be adjusted, generally something is going wrong inside it. They are sort of, they either work right or they do not work correctly and need to be replaced. Adjusting the pressure setting means it has drifted and these things are made so cheap, it time to replace as you can't trust it.

The new regulator will come preset to 11" WC so you do not have to set it.

The amount of years you have on the old one, odds are high you will not get that many years out of the new one.

Also good to know someone picked up the Marshall brass line.

There is also one other gas device that may be giving you issues. The ACME nut that attaches the hose to the tank, I'm assuming you have converted the system from the older left hand bull nose fitting to a newer plastic right hand nut? and a green one? The green is rated larger then the black.

In those ACME nuts there is a flow restriction device in the event of a hose or fitting blow out. If the gas rushes in too quick, the nut has a flow device that will shut the flow down to a very minimal amount. If that device has issue and is stuck, that "might" cause the problem. This flow is very small. I do not know how weak, your weak flame is. Just mentioning in case the regulator does not fix the problem.

Sometimes turning the tank valve open too fast, will trip the nut into safety. If this happens, just shut off the tank, bleed out the gas at the stove or unhook the nut and put it back on. When equal pressure is sensed on both sides of the nut, it resets.

Hope this helps

John

JerryJ · 05-20-2016, 10:37 PM

Hi John: Yes I remember that procedure from my BBQ . My son was always in the habit of turning his tank off when he finished his BBQ. His thinking was that of safety but at the same time it would disrupt the flow. I have always left the tanks turned on full and shut the burner valves off and it worked every time. So I applied that same procedure to the supply on the TT. Nothing really change.

My description for the weak flame would be that of the burner always acting as though it was on a low-to-medium knob adjustment. You'd have that urge to turn the knob up full even though it already was turned up full.
Plus, like a I mentioned all other appliances in the TT were seemingly running halfheartedly

**JohnB** · 05-21-2016, 08:30 AM

Hi Jerry,

Your description of the weak flame, I agree this points to the regulator and not the safety restrictor in the ACME nut.

I'll offer a way to get around accidentally tripping the safety on the ACME nut, turn the tank supply on slowly. Let it bleed in and fill the system then open the rest of the way. This will help prevent the fast slug of gas pressure that will accidentally trip the safety. It works well. This allows you to shut down the gas after every campout which I do.

I have found the gas valves on the camper not to be 100% perfect shutoff all the time. The hot water heater valve being the more finicky one. Atwood even declares a fine leak of a certain rate as OK on that valve which is a bit shocking. It is extremely fine and will still pass the pressure drop test, but it still a leak.

My luck, good or bad... I have had the HW heater valve leak, the stove regulator leak and the main tank regulator go bad all needing to be replaced. I do not know if this is because I check it with a pressure drop test and the manometer that I can find these small leaks or I just have plane bad luck.... I would never have found any of these if I was not checking. It makes me wonder how many folks have fine leaks and never know as they do not look.

A tell tail test is this, if you have change over regulator.

- Charge the system with tank pressure by turning on the tank gas supply.
- See that the change over regulator turns green.
- Use the camper on each gas device so you know the entire system is charged and all air is purged. Sort of like after a campout and you used all the gas appliances.
- Shut off the tank regulator.
- Come back a hour or so later. Look at the change over regulator. Is it green or red?
If it is red, well where did the pressure go? There is a very small or large leak somewhere.

Ideally do not go through a large outdoor temperature change after you close the valve and start the timing test. If there is any air pockets left in the system, the temp change may change the pressure over a long time.

JerryJ · 05-30-2016, 05:05 PM

I finally received the propane regulator today. It took 5 minutes to install using yellow Teflon tape and then the soap test.

SLOWLY turned the tank valve on; fired up one stove burner, then two then. the third. All burners work and the flame is slightly higher than previous, then turned the stove off.
Then I turned on the furnace, yes even in this weather. The heat output seems a lot hotter than before.
Then I fired up the fridge. About 5 hours later it's SLOWLY getting cold and I see a slight amount of frost in the freezer compartment. I'll know better tomorrow morning. If I'm not mistaken the propane side takes longer to chill than the electric side...correct?.
My hot water heater always did work so I'm not worried about that.

So, now that I know the regulator has improved things I think I'll revisit the oven thermostat. I've had that thermostat apart a few times any everything LOOKS A-ok. I could never get the pilot to light, let alone the main burner. Any suggestions. I thought about the thermocouple but I need the pilot to light before the thermocouple does its job.

Looking for thoughts on this one

**JohnB** · 06-01-2016, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryJ

If I'm not mistaken the propane side takes longer to chill than the electric side...correct?.

Glad it is working better Jerry. I have found the fridge actually work faster on LP gas then the electric element.

On the oven, now that you have the main tank regulator working again, I would start over on the oven and see if the pilot works. The camper ovens generally have a second regulator on them to drop the pressure down to 10" WC.

Yours being an older range, is it A Wedgewood or an Atwood and what is the model number? It helps if we know what you have past the generic answers.

They use to have at least 2 different brand controls valves, The concept is close to the same, but just checking what it is you have.

At this point, I agree the pilot should lit first, then the thermocouple comes into play to allow the safety gas valve to open. First is, do you have enough pressure and then is there a blockage somehow in the pilot system.

Hope this helps

John

JerryJ · 06-02-2016, 06:16 AM

Thanks John
After I found all propane appliances working and perked up, yes, I did revisit the oven. One of our local major appliance retailer/service shops has a service department. I asked them (as a special request) specifics about propane. Obviously these guys are natural gas people, but we all know there are little differences between natural gas and propane. I told them basically the same as i posted here. All they could think of was to check for blockages in the pilot line and the main burner line. (going from the thermostat to the pilot burner and to the main burner).
IMO they're both clear based on my tests. BTW, I've had every piece apart and checked each piece individually. Even and inkling of a spider debris would be an answer.

Here's ANOTHER cheating test that I did:
There's a small air vent right after where the pilot-feed-line fastens, but before the actual pilot burner. I wrapped some Teflon tape around the hole to close it off, then lit the pilot. I actually got a flame to appear right at the pilot burner, still very weak and not enough to reach the thermocouple bulb.

As small and as weak as that flame was, it stayed lit. I watched it for 15 to 20 minutes and it stayed lit.

Then I brought out the propane torch and aimed directly at the thermocouple bulb, simulating a heat source that would trigger to activate the main burner. I heard a click and then the main burner finally came to life (after all these years). So, the safety valve assembly works.
But even that main burner's flame was weak beyond description, but it was a nice bright blue, no yellow or orange. I removed the torch flame from the thermocouple and the main burner eventually died. I repeated that process a few times and the results were the same.
Deductive reasoning still points to a defective thermostat.

My stove make and model (3 burner) Wedgewood T2122, W307336

Wannabes · 06-04-2016, 01:55 PM

Great job of troubleshooting, Jerry. Using a torch as an alternate heat source to test the thermocouple is just the thing to do. I'd say that you definitely have a defective 'stat; the clincher is the fact that when you covered the bleed hole with Teflon, you were able to get a pilot flame: this indicates that the diaphragm in the valve assembly has a pinhole leak. The hole is there to allow air to escape/enter as the diaphragm changes position during operation, and if the diaphragm is not compromised, only a negligeable amount of gas should be present there.

All of which is true only if I'm recalling correctly the internal workings of such things. It's been a long time...

BTW, you're correct about there being little difference between LP and natural gas. The main thing to know is that LP has more BTU content than natural; in these parts, natural gas is rated at 1040 BTU/cu. ft,. while LP yields 2360/cu. ft. This is why you need to change burner orifices when converting an appliance from natural gas to LP or vice-versa.

JerryJ · 06-04-2016, 03:12 PM

Thanks Mathew. As soon as I get caught up with stuff, I may take that stat apart ....again.... with a more discretionary look. Trust me, there will be another follow-up

JerryJ · 06-05-2016, 06:39 AM

I removed the inside valve assembly for closer inspection. The valves are actually valve plates, similar to a concentric valve system. The face of these plates actually look like they're made of the carbon pile you'd see in rheostats, although I'm sure it's not a carbon pile (or is it?)
No nics or scratches or warp-age, no apparent deformities.

It looks like this assembly was defective since new. There are two sections to the assembly that screw in to each other using a left handed thread. My son-in-law helped me as we unloaded the springs careful to not allowing things to go "SPROING !!!!" and removing the "C" clip retainer.
There appeared to be a build up of white lithium looking grease. With propane as a hydrocarbon??? Was it a sealer or a lubricant? There's nothing online that suggests either let alone anything online that has the assembly break-down. One wild thought was that the springs were too tight and not allowing gas pressure or volume to flow freely.
I was watching which direction the valves operated when the cam on the knob-shaft would rotate.
After a cleaning and a blind setting and reassembly we fired it up. Still no flow to the pilot but we found the main burner came to life, virtually full tilt. Problem is, when the thermostat was set on low it was a high flame and set on high the flame went low.. Nope, nothing was put in backwards.

more to come....

I used my automotive intake cleaner and we cleaned any/all of the white stuff away.
We also notice during our disassembly that the two pieces screw together were held by half to one thread turn as it popped off too easily.

Jim-Bev-2363 · 06-05-2016, 03:50 PM

Maybe the "white stuff" is grease, a lubricant for the O-rings, and a little movement is good. No lubricant could mean the pressures inside the valve do not allow movement needed to regulate pressures and openings. Maybe.

**JohnB** · 06-05-2016, 06:34 PM

Jerry,

You are doing good and it seems you narrowed down the problem to the thermostat. I my self have not had to dig into one of them yet.

Your system being older and around the time Atwood took over Wedgewood makes it a little harder to find info on the web. But I did find this and it may help. Atwood took over Wedgewood in 1986 and they converted the model numbers.

See here http://manuals.adventurerv.net/Atwoo...nuals-2007.pdf

You gave us this on your 1985 camper

Quote:

My stove make and model (3 burner) Wedgewood T2122, W307336

See the bottom of PDF page 60.

I found that by the W serial numbers of the older Wedgwoods you have a Robert Shaw gas system.

Atwood converted the older Wedgewood model of T2122 to an R1730 (see PDF page 61.

See PDF page 55. It decodes the R1730 into

R= Range
17 = Oven height
3 = 3 burners
0 = Grates are round OR other items. This 0 is not clear.

Page 56 shows pics of the T stat, the main burner the safety pilot. The top of the page, you can confirm you have the Robert Shaw gas system.

Now the news... See page 77, The R1730 shows 2 thermostats depending on your manifold.

A 51095 and a 52122. Both are listed as "no longer available"

I don't know if there is a substitute. And before I did a bunch more digging, well, need to confirm the trail I followed looks like and matches what your range is.

If you are going to needs parts, the hunt may take some more effort to figure this out.

Hope this helps

John

JerryJ · 06-06-2016, 04:57 AM

Woe !!! thanks for the research. That's deeper than anyone has gone. I knew it was no longer available but wasn't aware that it was a Robert Shaw system.

I took it apart yesterday. I told my wife "hold all my calls, I'll be buried in my office and no interruptions" (not that any of that helped)

The only thing that I could do was to TRY to adjust that left handed thread adjustable shaft. That white 'stuff' had to be an old lubricant of sorts. I read elsewhere online that many people have used Vaseline as a lubricant because it, too, is a hydrocarbon. So, two of my brain cells agreed that I could try that just as one more measure.

My end result was: In the pilot mode that main burner fired up to full flame, only when I used the propane torch to heat the thermocouple bulb. Hmmmm that's different, but the pilot would not light no matter how much pleading I did or curses I used.. Remove adjust and reinstall several times..... To get the thing to work was the ultimate target but to understand the order of operations inside the T-stat was my immediate goal. Picture Professor Irwin Corey if you will.

Jim-Bev-2363 · 06-06-2016, 09:52 AM

Welllll, You could have failed at much more important things and there are plenty of other things for you to "repair", I'm sure. Good luck.