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Old 11-09-2009, 10:16 AM   #1
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More (battery) Power

Last year we put a pair of 6V Golf Cart batteries on the tongue. Quite pleased with the performance, found we could go about 3 nights of fall weather and only be down to a 60% SOC. That was being conservative, but comfortable.

To allow for some additional usage of creature comforts (catch the news on TV, let Kathy run the hair dryer for a couple minutes), I decided to build a rack and add another pair of the Golf Cart batteries.

The rack is made primarily out of 14 gauge 1 1/4" square tube and 14 gauge 1 1/2" angle. There are two short pieces of 1/8" angle used to bolt the rack to the tongue.

On with the pics!

First I mocked up the rack by clamping everything to the tongue. I used full lengths of the square tube for this step. This allowed me to figure out how long to cut the various pieces of steel:




Then I cut two lengths of tube and welded them to the angle that was still clamped to the frame:




Cut some pieces of angle to hold the bottoms of the battery boxes in place, then welded those on:




I also capped the ends of the tubes, added a couple of cross-pieces of tube, and added angle to the ends. My battery went dead, so no pictures of that.

Here's the rack welded up and in primer:




Then paint:




This was a good time to get the tongue cleaned up as well, so I pulled everything off the tongue that I could, cleaned the rust off with a flap disc on the grinder, then gave it a fresh coat of primer and paint. I'll have to deal with the center section of the header in the spring when I have some more time:




The propane rack was getting a little rusty, so cleaned that up and gave it some fresh paint:




Once everything had a few days to cure, I got everything mounted back on the tongue, including the new rack:




Got the batteries in the boxes and placed on the rack:




Made up my interconnect cables:




Got it all wired up:




And we're all closed up and ready to roll. Sorry for the dark picture, days are too short now




Since I had everything apart, I figured now was a good time to upgrade to an auto-changeover regulator. We've run a tank empty twice, both times in the middle of the night when it was pretty cold out. I dont like waking up to a 40* trailer. The remote indicator for the regulator is on order, I'll get that installed when it arrives.

I also need to pick up a pair of pigtails this week. I'm not liking the condition these are in.




I have a 120A waterproof circuit breaker on order to be placed right at the batteries. That should arrive on Wednesday and wont take but 10 minutes to install.

Hopefully we'll get to head out this weekend and try life with 440 Ah on board!

- Frank
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:41 AM   #2
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Looks great, Frank Now, "DO" I STILL see a MANUAL jack on the front of that thing ?????? Man, with 4 batteries on there now you will really be wanting a power tongue jack. I think Gary is thinking about more battery power on the 320SR.

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Old 11-09-2009, 11:24 AM   #3
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Well Kitty beat me to it - but I noticed the manual jack also....whats up with that????
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:17 PM   #4
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Frank

Did you weld the battery rack to the frame or bolt it on?

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Old 11-10-2009, 07:24 AM   #5
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Electric jack is on the list for "someday".. The extra weight might wind up pushing it a little higher up on the priorities list.. For now it's good exercise


Joe,

The rack is welded together, but bolted to the tongue. This way I can remove it later if it needs some paint.

- Frank
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:56 AM   #6
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Frank, as usual, your handy work is always neat to see. GREAT JOB!!!

You also realize you made your TT A Frame stronger in the process. The WD will not flex that 4” channel as easily now. EMAN’s battery rack I know did the same thing but he did his on top where yours is under slung.

Now, once seeing this, Tim Allen came to mind…. More power! You have some serious power distribution going on in that corner of your shop. Is that 2, 50 amp receptacles and a about a dozen 120 wall outlets and maybe even then some? You plugging in some serious Christmas lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank


Here's the rack welded up and in primer:




I have a 120A waterproof circuit breaker on order to be placed right at the batteries. That should arrive on Wednesday and wont take but 10 minutes to install.

Hopefully we'll get to head out this weekend and try life with 440 Ah on board!

- Frank
Another thing rang the bell in the back of my mind with. A 120 amp breaker, h’mm. What is the thought process behind one that large? And that hooked to 440 ah of battery = WOW. I guess you really want to over come the hair dryer problem…

This now has me thinking as well for the day I upgrade. Is it better to have a selector switch on the tongue to choose which 2 batteries are connected at once? When in the use mode, running 2 at a time helps on the wire size and fusing I would think. From the battery breaker to the convertor panel that wire needs to be able to handle the full current in the event of current build up and dead short. Putting a 30 amp breaker out at the tongue would protect the convertor bus system. On an inverter, well one can run a separate feed line.

OK I’ll just ask, how are you going to do the power distribution system? Never had so many amp hours available before to have to think thru this. Ideally even on a single battery they would sell a simple bolt on fusible link at the battery post. When you jump from the battery to where ever you are going, that wire is unprotected if somehow it finds a path to ground. Kitty’s T2499 when it was towed the guy warped a chain around the battery cable and created a dead short. Insulation melts fast and the wire get’s really hot quick in these cases. Unless the cable can handle full load of the battery in a dead short it sort of becomes the fusible link. I had a lawn tractor melt an electrical death that way once too. There are a lot of setup’s not protected, just it never dawned on me until I saw 440 amp hours…

OK how are you dealing with this?

John
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JohnB
Now, once seeing this, Tim Allen came to mind…. More power! You have some serious power distribution going on in that corner of your shop. Is that 2, 50 amp receptacles and a about a dozen 120 wall outlets and maybe even then some? You plugging in some serious Christmas lights?
Actually, yes!

It's been a few years since I've put everything out, but the last time everything was running, it was right around a 24 amp draw.

The Christmas light panel is the one next to the garage door with the bazillion outlets. It's a 30A timer, a couple of dimmers and light controllers and then just lots of outlets. It's fed with 10/3 SJ cord through a 30A hubbell twist-lock.

The other junk in the corner there.. the one breaker box is the one from the house. This is a townhouse with a 1 car garage, so it's 150A service. Thankfully, I'm all natural gas here. The second breaker box I added as a subpanel to run the stuff in the garage - a few outlets (it had ZERO when I moved in), the air compressor, welder, xmas lights, etc. The panel and all that comes out with me when I move. The twist-locks on the wall there.. one is a 30A 240V for the welders, the other is a 30A 120V for that Christmas light panel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Another thing rang the bell in the back of my mind with. A 120 amp breaker, h’mm. What is the thought process behind one that large? And that hooked to 440 ah of battery = WOW. I guess you really want to over come the hair dryer problem…

This now has me thinking as well for the day I upgrade. Is it better to have a selector switch on the tongue to choose which 2 batteries are connected at once? When in the use mode, running 2 at a time helps on the wire size and fusing I would think. From the battery breaker to the convertor panel that wire needs to be able to handle the full current in the event of current build up and dead short. Putting a 30 amp breaker out at the tongue would protect the convertor bus system. On an inverter, well one can run a separate feed line.

OK I’ll just ask, how are you going to do the power distribution system? Never had so many amp hours available before to have to think thru this. Ideally even on a single battery they would sell a simple bolt on fusible link at the battery post. When you jump from the battery to where ever you are going, that wire is unprotected if somehow it finds a path to ground. Kitty’s T2499 when it was towed the guy warped a chain around the battery cable and created a dead short. Insulation melts fast and the wire get’s really hot quick in these cases. Unless the cable can handle full load of the battery in a dead short it sort of becomes the fusible link. I had a lawn tractor melt an electrical death that way once too. There are a lot of setup’s not protected, just it never dawned on me until I saw 440 amp hours…

OK how are you dealing with this?

John
I had a feeling this question was going to come up, so I drew this the other day:



Here's a little refresher on what I did for distribution under the couch. This replaces that tiny box and pile of wire nuts that Sunline had under there:



I'm trying to do these upgrades in a modular fashion since I never know what's going to come in the future. For example, when I did the wiring upgrade, I wasn't sure if or when I would jump to 4 batteries. I'm running a 400 W continuous inverter right now, but that could change to a larger unit in the future. If I do greatly increase the inverter size, I would only have to swap out the 5' of cable that runs from the distro to the tongue, and the battery interconnecting cables. Also, Solar might become a possibility at some time, so this is also a good place to tie-in a charge controller for that.

I also wanted to try to minimize the number of wires getting run under the coach. Less spaghetti is easier for me to manage, less holes in the floor to worry about keeping sealed up, and so on.

(John, I know you are well aware of what I'm about to say in thisparagraph, but I want to make sure that the others reading this understand as well.) I'm a firm believer in installing some form of protection within 12" of a battery whenever a length of cable is involved. I think that for the most part, people tend to underestimate the power of a battery. This bank is rated 440 Ah, but that's a 20 hour rating. It will easily produce well over a thousand amps into a dead short, albeit for a short period of time. When stressed that hard, tons of heat is generated in the battery, causing it to boil and release hydrogen gas. Battery explosions and fires can and do happen. Ask anybody who has worked in the automotive field for a while and they will have plenty of horror stories from accidental shorting of car batteries. Red hot and melting conductors are also a great fire starter.

With the stock sunline setup being the single battery and a 10 AWG feeder, I wasn't happy with the lack of protection, but I was willing to deal with it knowing it was getting replaced eventually anyway. If I was keeping it that way for any period of time, I would have at least installed a 30A fuse right at the battery terminal. Now with even more power potential, and fatter cables, protection is a must.

I'd like to do something with the positive interconnect cable as well, but am a little concerned about adding resistance to that part of the equation. For now, all the cables are inside plastic wire loom (same stuff you find used under the hood of a car) for some extra physical protection.

The 120 A rating on the breaker, I came about this after considering a few things. First, the 4 AWG is rated at 135A for Chassis Wiring, so I knew I wanted to be somewhere below that figure. The inverter is rated at 83% efficiency, so a 400W load is about 38A @ 12V, and the peak 800W load is about 76A @ 12V. Knowing I could still possibly (although not likely) draw 30A from the other stuff in the trailer through the fuse panel of the converter, I wanted at least 76A + 30A, or 106A of breaker up front. 120A was the only thing available between 100 & 135. I could have went with a 100A, but I wanted a little headroom for growth without having to buy another $30 circuit breaker. As seen in the diagram, current to and from the converter is still limited at 30A by the panel mount breaker in the distro box.

The A/B switches. Those seem real common in the marine world. My first instinct was to grab one of those, but I thought about it a while and decided against it for the following reasons:

- It would throw my battery monitor completely out of whack. I could overcome this by resetting it to 100% SOC when I flipped the a/b switch, but I'm bound to get distracted or just plain forget to do it.

- I'd like to keep the batteries as balanced as possible over their lifespan. Based on our experience, we could make most of our trips on just one pair of batteries alone, so I might never need to flip that switch during a trip. I could keep them balanced by alternating A/B on every other trip, but again, I'm bound to forget..

- To keep them all topped up, I'd need to use the A+B position when parked and plugged in. It seems that it is best to charge them in parallel only when they are all at a similar SOC. So this would mean that if I used set "A" for a weekend, I'd need to come home, plug in, charge "A" for a while, then flip the switch to "A+B." I can easily see me forgetting to do this...

- *Apparently* (and we'll see if I can confirm this), the larger bank will be more apt to kick my converter into "boost" mode. I've read this in a couple of places, but am reserving judgement until I see it with my own two eyes.

Wow, that was a long response, but this is a real good conversation!

- Frank
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Now, once seeing this, Tim Allen came to mind…. More power! You have some serious power distribution going on in that corner of your shop. Is that 2, 50 amp receptacles and a about a dozen 120 wall outlets and maybe even then some? You plugging in some serious Christmas lights?
Actually, yes!

It's been a few years since I've put everything out, but the last time everything was running, it was right around a 24 amp draw.

The Christmas light panel is the one next to the garage door with the bazillion outlets. It's a 30A timer, a couple of dimmers and light controllers and then just lots of outlets. It's fed with 10/3 SJ cord through a 30A hubbell twist-lock.

- Frank

LOL!!! You know they make movies about this..... So you are the one with the bright lights in the east around Christmas time....

Now the techy stuff. Yes this is good discussion. You have done well splitting up the loads. I forgot you put that monster wire in when you put that fancy SOC meter in.

And yes I too thought of the drawbacks of the AB switch and your same thoughts came up. There are pro's and con's both ways. Take your pick.

Thinking about this now for a little bit, I think I would come to the same conclusion you have.

This type of mod of having that much power is for sure something one needs to think threw on how to handle. You have gone further then most.

Reflecting on this, there is a flaw in the basic setup even on a 1 group 24 battery setup. The wire from the battery to the breaker or fuse on most TT’s is exposed for a dead short. I’m surprised RIVA has not done something about this. The LP tanks are right next to the batteries on many rigs. Granted the problem of a dead short on that feed line is not frequent, however like you said, anyone being around equipment with a battery start system long enough has seen “something” of a melt down. Ideally they make a fusible link right at the battery terminal. While it is still not 100% fool proof in the event something lands across the posts, it takes out a large number of the what can happen events with the feed wire.

Automotive has caught up to a lot of this. Now fusible links, breakers and fuse panels are everywhere splitting up circuits. With the amount of electrical devices in an auto now a days they have to. Yet the main feed line is still exposed.

I have never searched for a fusible link on a battery post. Something to do in my spare curiosity time.

Great work Frank.

Thanks for sharing

John
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:15 AM   #9
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I have never searched for a fusible link on a battery post. Something to do in my spare curiosity time.
John,

I've been looking for something of that nature to use on the cross-connect cables. Blue Sea Systems has something that has potential:



The holder runs about $15 and the fuses around $10 each. Not out of line when compared to anything else of the high-amp variety.

Specs here: http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/pro...e/overview/378


In other related news, I have now solved the hair dryer problem.

Yesterday I moved the converter's 120V feed to it's own dedicated breaker (it had been shared with some of the outlets). I also ran a cable (think extension cord) from the inverter up front to the shore power cord compartment. I can now power the 120V stuff in the coach from the inverter by just plugging the shore power cord into the cable I ran. With the dedicated breaker, I will shut off the converter when doing this. I will also switch off the Microwave to prevent any unneccesary phantom draw. Not as nice as a transfer switch, but very economical! Total cost was $3.00 for the new breaker.

After doing that I confirmed that the inverter will power the hair dryer on low with no problem and plenty of headroom. Current draw from the batteries when doing this is 27 A. Since it will only run for 5 minutes a day max, we're talking about just over 2 Ah out of the bank per day. Not bad at all.

- Frank
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:33 PM   #10
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Frank

Well good for you on the hair dryer. That was the one thing the DW did not like about boondocking, that and the micro wave. So after only a little thought the hair dryer and microwave where timed with the Genny run time and life was good again.

I like that that power post fuse. Yes that will work. Good find.

Tim the Tool man would be proud with all your power….

Good job

John
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:29 PM   #11
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West Marine has those Blue Sea Systems terminal fuse blocks for $19.99.

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Old 11-25-2009, 10:34 AM   #12
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That's one nice looking set up you've got there.

One question, why only go with a 800w inverter?

Also, is the inverter a Pure Sinewave model? We have a smaller 400w non-sinewave inverter that we just plug into the 12v plug we had installed under the couch if just working on a lap top, but when we want the entire coach powered, we use the bigger 2000w inverter.

We've noticed a bad buzz or flickering on the screen when using the smaller inverter compared to the lager, cleaner model

Man, I wish I had your skills when it came to electrical wiring
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by emam
That's one nice looking set up you've got there.

One question, why only go with a 800w inverter?

Also, is the inverter a Pure Sinewave model? We have a smaller 400w non-sinewave inverter that we just plug into the 12v plug we had installed under the couch if just working on a lap top, but when we want the entire coach powered, we use the bigger 2000w inverter.

We've noticed a bad buzz or flickering on the screen when using the smaller inverter compared to the lager, cleaner model
Thanks Pat.

The inverter is just a rather inexpensive 400w continuous, 800w peak, "modified sine wave" (read: not a sine wave) unit.

I considered going bigger, but we really only use it to run three items. The TV which draws about 60W, the crock pot which draws around 150W, and Kathy's hair dryer which pulls just over 300W on low. We only run the crock pot when we are in motion, and there's never any need to run the TV and the hair dryer together, so the 400W has plenty of room for what we *need* to run.. oh, yeah, it only cost $29

There's of course things that would be nice to run once in a while, but the cost vs. benefit makes it a little impractical.

Thankfully, the basic inverter plays nicely with the TV. No audio problems and no picture artifacts. Actually, when we are just watching the TV, I usually just run the tiny little 100W job that I picked up on sale for $7. It actually is a bit more efficent than the larger inverter, so it's a little battery savings.

Thinking a bit ahead - I'm hoping that the next coach is something we will keep long term, and that will likely wind up very decked out with even more batteries and a larger true sinewave inverter. But, that's just a little ways out at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by emam
Man, I wish I had your skills when it came to electrical wiring
And I wish I could take a picture that was worth looking at!

Honestly, the 12V wiring is not all that complicated. Once you get the basics, it's very easy to begin understanding more of it. It also helps to look at things in terms of little pieces (circuits, systems, whatever) working together to meet the goal. Even the largest, most complex systems can usually be broken down into building blocks which makes them much easier to understand.

- Frank
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:40 AM   #14
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1000-1200 watt Inverter

When I was remodleing our son's Scamp we bought a 1000 - 1200 watt Inverter at a Black and Decker outlet store for $59. It has worked real well for him.

I agree that one of the little Inverters, we use a cigarette lighter 75 watt inverter, to run our TV when dry camping. The big ones are just not efficient at low draws.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:45 AM   #15
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Frank, maybe at the next Meet & Greet, I can give you a quick tutorial of Camera basics and you can do the same with 12 wiring
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:03 PM   #16
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Frank, maybe at the next Meet & Greet, I can give you a quick tutorial of Camera basics and you can do the same with 12 wiring
Pat, There are now 2 in line for the pic's Camera Basics.. Count me in. My new 8 Meg pixels camera does not play well. The older 4 Meg unit worked great and clear, just not as high a res. If I could ever understand F stop it might help...

John
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