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Old 06-04-2011, 06:54 PM   #1
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Metal Valve Stems in TT wheels (long with pics)

Hi Folks

Last year I ended up with one of my new trailer tires having a valve stem leak. So I took it in to NTB where I bought my Denman trailer tires from to put another new stem in. $22 later I left and out we go again. About 3 months later it starts again going flat. Pump it up and wait a few days then pump it again. That went on for about 4 months. OK it’s time to deal with this thing myself, I thought they must of left some rust or something in the valve stem hole.

Over the winter we didn’t camp much due to the weather. The leak was bad enough the tire would go almost flat after about 3 weeks. I didn’t want to crease the tire so I took it off and put the spare on. This winter I was also researching tire pressure monitoring systems and bead balancing. The TPM system would be the type that screws on the valve stems and they recommend that metal stems be used due to the increased weight as it fatigues the rubber stems, even high pressure rubber stems like I had. So I had the perfect need to fix this problematic valve stem, install a metal one, install balancing beads and do the other 4 tires. At $22 a tire x 5 to change stems I said, OK I’ll deal with this. Simple enough as I have mounted many tires over the years but all where rubber snap in stems.

I also researched out these T valve stems from Hawks Systems TIRE PRESSURE MONITORING SYSTEM They offered a unique system that had 2 valve cores on them. This let’s you add or let out air and leave the TPM sensor still on the stem. So I order 6 of them to have a spare. They showed up in February. About 4 weeks later, 6 more show up…. It seems that had a problem internally with the valve core so they sent out new ones to replace the ones I had. Good thing I didn’t have them mounted already but they did good by their problems. Here is what they look like.


So the weather warmed up some and I pulled out my old tire changing machine. Doesn’t every RV’er have one? LOL. OK JohnB where the heck did you get a tire machine?? Well when I was in high school I use to help out at my step dad’s garage after school and the new kid on the totem pole learned how to change tires the modern way and pump gas. Back then there was no self serve…. He had an Esso station, later Exxon, when repair garages where privately owned and they bought gas and sold it. Gas prices would only change when a new tank load come. Guess things have changed a little bit in the gas sales area…. So he had this Atlas tire changing machine. As time went on my farming duties increased and so did college. He upgraded to a new machine but kept the old one. After 45 years in the garage business he sold out to a developer who wanted the land to build a Walmart. So the garage equipment went up for sale and for $50 bucks I got a tire machine. My step brother ended up with the tire balancer. Wish I would have had that too… This things weighs a ton, it all steel. It is at least 40 years old may even be 50. I have had it for 25 years…. So here it is and how it works.

HenryJ some how picked up I had one from this one picture from his balancing beads post. All you can see is the center stem of the machine in the middle of the wheel.


Here is the rest and how it works. It runs on compressed air.


You put the tire on top, an anti rotate pin goes up thru the lug holes.


Screw down a center hub that locks the rim to the machine.




The machine is made to break both the top and bottom tire beads at once. In my case I only wanted to break the valve stem side. These rim arms go in the machine to compress the top bead.


From the bottom the machine pushes up to break the tire bead


Once the beads are broke you can use the same machine to demount the tire from the wheel. There is a top mounted tool that has 2 ends, one for removing, one for installing.


Here you can take the tire off the rim


Here you can put it back on the rim


And the name plate


So if you happen to luck out and have one of these, doing tire work is not that bad. Now to the metal stems saga. What was suppose to be a fairly quick task didn’t turn out that way. Trailer wheels are really not the greatest for metal valve stems and it’s amazing rubber snap ins even work. At least in the size I have. The valve stem hole is punched in the rim during manufacturing and they form the rim after. The bends of the rim end up creating a non flat area for the valve stem hole. Snap in rubber stems are more forgiving for contoured rims where the stem hole is in the contour. Metal stems ideally need a flat surface to help give the main valve stem seal a chance to work which is the actual hole in the rim.

Here is the Hawk stems in a series of trials. I first started out with when they sent me as a configuration.


Here is the outside


The inside


Put the balancing beads in, put the tire on the ground to lay it flat and help push the tire up on the rim. I also have an inflation band, again old school but it gets the job done, that compresses the tire to help start the bead.

Since I was using DynaBeads for balancing they do not want a lot of bead lube up in the tire so you have to put the bead lube on by hand taking care to only use as needed. Bead lube is essential to have the tire slide into the wheel correctly during inflation and use lower seating pressures.


Wipe it on the bead by hand, not with the normal brush


Put the inflation band on and pump it up


As soon and the bead starts to catch on the rim you need to deflate the band and roll it off the OD of the tire. This is to prevent the tire from expanding it and never get it off… Just bleed it and roll it up on top.

Once you have some air in the tire and the bead started I switch from the quick filling air chuck to one I can read pressure on. You really do not want to go over 40 psi to set beads on this size tire. They pop bad enough at 20psi.


Once the bead is set, I pull out the valve stem, deflate, let the tire relax then air it up again to full pressure. That is if you do not have a leak from the get go. It did at about 30 psi, blowing like crazy on the valve stem. That is a little bit of water there you are seeing bubble. OK take it back off….


The 1st one I rolled the stem seal. My goof. So put a new one in


This one leak as bad just maybe 10 psi higher. OK off again….. But there is no roll at all. It just plain won’t seal.




OK what is going on here. Maybe the stem hole has issues. Well there in no rust or heavy scratches.




So I started calling around. 1st to Hawk. They where not much help. They told me take it to a tire shop. I asked what torque are the nuts suppose to be at to make a seal. He did not know and said he could email it to me. He said the tire shop would know…. So 2 days later he emailed me the torque and still said they recommend a tire shop install these.

Here is the “short” version of this saga… LOL

I did go to 5 tire shops and ended up with no more then I went in with. The tire shops around here never heard of a TPM system that screws on the valve stems. They all use the auto type that is inside the rim so they do not deal a lot with metal stems in trailer tires. They always put snap in rubber stems.

These Hawk type stems could work on a machined aluminum rim but odds are against you on trailer tires. Even regular metal valve stems have a lot of issues but I was able to get them to work.

Here is the problem. The rim hole.






You cannot get a flat sealing surface to pull even against. This is after I even added a double sealing washer.








I actually did get 1 to work. But after that I gave up and went to Napa and bought straight metal valve stems. They too have issues trying to seal in the curve. I added a top seal on the outside and these then worked right from the word go.

Here is what comes in a package along with an adapter for a 5/8 rim hole. I cut that down to make the outside gasket. As you can see here these do not sit true flat either.








Here it is compressed




And yup, it works out of the gate

I also use a little removable thread locker on the stem nut


Here are the rubber stems.


They don’t have a good sealing setup either but they conform better to the bends.


The primary pressure seal is the rim hole that is rough punched to start with. You can see here the Hawk gasket up in the hole from the bottom. That little bit of rubber is all that is sealing. On the rubber snap in stems the rubber flexes around the rim bend radius's. The Hawk never had a chance


You can see here the rubber stems is not even laying flat for the secondary seal to work. The secondary seal is the face of the rim.






I now have all 5 tires converted and 1 is a Hawk stem. They have all held pressure tight now for over 2 months and 3 camping trips. So hopefully the leaking tire saga is behind me.

Now I can get my TPM system. Looking at TST (Total Truck Systems)

Hope this helps someone in the future.

John


PS If you want more pics of the saga and process see here
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:02 PM   #2
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John, I'm glad you didn't post this in 2009 when I bought my new flatbed equipment trailer. I might not have converted it to metal stems like I did. I used the Napa metal stems which did have some sealing problems initially as you described because of the rounded wheel surface. Eventually they do seal and I didn't use the rubber gasket on top because if it shrinks with age it will cause a loss of tension. I haven't lost a pound of pressure in 2 years.

Since trailer wheels don't have a safety bead like car and truck wheels, a machine, lube and bead seater are unneccessary. I just let the air out of the tire by taking out the valve and stepping on the tire which pushed it off the rim. Unless the tire is rusted to the rim that should be all that's neccessary. I then cut the rubber valve off and inserted the metal valve stem tightened it and reinflated the tire.

Since the trailer uses much higher pressure tires than the Sunline, I went with the metal stems but I also went with them because of the very poor reputation of Chinese rubber valve stems. However, since the Sunline has aluminum wheels, I think that I'll go with the rubber stems and hope for the best when the time comes to change them.
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:26 AM   #3
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Hi Rick

The gasket on the outside, I know I put 303 UV on it to help the sun attack problem. The seal on the inside is under so much compression due to trying to get the thing to seal that come new tire time I'll change stems again or at least the gaskets.

On the 1st attempt of the Napa metal stems I trimmed the stem to not hit the rim and did not use a gasket on the outside. Like this




It too leaked which did not leave me with a lot of confidence this was ever going to work. Did a bunch more researching and then went on a hunt to 5 tires shops trying to figure out if they could help. Here is that saga

This was after I bought the 1st Napa metal stem valve that I trimmed the seat on and it leaked.

Stop 1. I went to the NAPA close to work which was a different one then where I bought the 1st valve. It is a satellite store but still a stocking one. Went in to see if they have any different stems then what I have now. The guy opens the catalog to the same page I bought the 1st one from. So no luck here.

Stop 2 Left and went to the local Goodyear shop. Asked the manager if they had any metal stems that work with trailer wheels. He first said how you going to get the tire off the rim? Told him I had that covered and I have tried this 5 times already and the stems I have now I can’t get to seal. He says OK and went in the back to look. He came out with the same NAPA valve I have now in the NAPA package…. Told him I already have that and I can’t get it to seal up. Tried to explain the rim hole is right about in the radius of the rim and the head of the stem hits. So he thinks about it and says, what you need is a truck valve. They are bigger and heavier. I said I have the smaller 0.453 hole. He said they will still work. He started rattling off 4 truck tire places and then he said who did you talk to at NAPA and did you go to the main store? I said yes the main store is where I bought the ones you have. He went on to tell me the guy who sold you those stems never mounted a tire in his life. Go and ask for the truck stems. OK thanks. So Goodyear is a bust.

Stop 3. Head back to the main NAPA store and explain the Goodyear guy sent me here to look at the tuck tire stems. He pulls out the same catalog the guy did before over the weekend and opens to the page I already know about. I said I need the truck section. So he flips 3 to 4 pages and in the truck section are the large semi stems that are 90 degree stems and 4” long that go into the center or the rim. Everything they showed me in the tuck setup is a 0.625 hole or bigger. OK thanks. So NAPA is a bust a 2nd time in one day….

Stop 4. I pull into the Firestone shop. Ask if they have any metal stems that work in trailer tires. He say no this is what we use. He pulls out the high pressure rubber snap in. I explain I’m using this on a TPM system. He looked stunned. He had never heard of a TPM that screws on the stem. They are use to the stem sender units like the new vehicles have. I said yes the stem screw on type are common on RV’s but they need metal stems. He understood the need for the metal stems and said well then you need to go to a RV dealer. OK thanks. So Firestone is a bust.

Stop 5. I pull into NTB who is the shop I bought the trailer tires from and they mounted in the 1st place. I said, hey what do I have to loose.... So I ask if they have any metal stems that work with trailer tire? Ah no we do not use any metal stems. We use the snap in's. I explain the TPM system that screws on the stem and he says, well the only thing I can sell you is a TPM system that mounts in the tire stem and all. OK thanks. So NTB is a bust.

There is a Jegs here in town and Son works there. But everything I find on their site has the nuts on the inside of the tire. But they have 2 grommets at least. He talked to his shop guys and he said, yes the rim curves create issues some time. They do a lot of racing wheels and they too use metal stems. So out of this was born the idea of the gasket on the outside.

PTHutch here on the forum took his TT to a tire shop and gave them metal steams he bought out of Advance when he bought new tires. To our surprise they had 2 wheels with the no grommet on the outside and then 2 with. I suspect they ran into the same issue. They won't seal up.

In the process of doing this I do have 1 Napa valve unmodified and no grommet on the outside. It is holding and I said, it it is working let it work.
What I found out in all this, the type with the stem nut on the outside is better as they can wedge the main steam grommet in the direction the pressure is pushing. By adding the extra grommet on the outside if anything does leak past the stem seal, it seals that little bit up.

You mentioned shrink on the outside grommet, I'll have to keep an eye on that, Thanks, never thought of that. All I know is once I hit the combo of the Napa style stem, and extra grommet on the outside they work right all the time.

BTW, the Napa stems I bought are actually Schrader International brand. So they are private labeling them for Napa or at least in our area. Scrhader has been around since the beginning however I think these are now imports from China as well...

You mentioned just dumping the air and stomping on the tire to break the bead. H'mm never tried that. I have never been so lucky so I never even tried it. The memories of changing farm implement tires by hand and the bead being welded on almost never even gave it a thought these might come loose by hand.

Thanks

John
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:47 PM   #4
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Wow, I guess I was VERY lucky to get those metal stems to seal. Dumb luck in my case. I found that I did have to tighten the outside nut down pretty good to stop the leaking. Probably once the inside seal was compressed and was on for a little while the leaking stopped.

The advantage of not having an outside seal is that my cranking down the nut was directed solely against the inside seal instead of trying to compress both. I would also caution you to be careful about the nut tension. You say that you used Loctite. If you do get shrinkage on either or both seals, you may think that the nut is still tightened down but the Loctite will give that impression.

The inside surface of the wheel is a horrible rounded surface to seal. If I had known that in the first place I probably would not have attempted to put the metal stems on. Thought I would be better off with the metal stems but now I wonder.

Yes, this was a new trailer and new tires and no safety bead on the inside of the rim so it was quite easy to dismount the one side of the tire bead to change the stems. An older wheel and tire combo it would likely be necessary to use a machine or a lot of jumping! LOL.

After I reread your post and thought about it, I wonder if the Alloy rims are machined flat, internally, to accept a valve stem? If so, they would make a better recepient of a metal valve.
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:23 PM   #5
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I've been wondering what 'non-camper' 14" rims might fit my 91 TT. I have put Ford rims on my utility trailer and wondered if some regular automotive rims might fit the camper axles. No I haven't gone so far as measureing the bolt pattern. I'm hopefull someone has already done that.

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Old 07-02-2011, 11:46 AM   #6
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John,
Just a heads up on the TST.
I took my sensors off last fall in order to save the internal batteries when TT is in storage.
This spring one of the sensors would not seal, and my investigation revealed that the little O-ring inside had gone AWOL.
Apparently this is a problem TST is aware of, as they sent me for free a supply of new ones, but they were out of stock when I called them, and the new ones did not get here until we came back from two weeks at Hoeft.
I insisted on metal stems when I bought new tires a little over two years ago, but after one year the rubber seals were cracking and looking like a disaster waiting to happen. The tire place, Tire Warehouse in Lake Orion, replaced them with another type of metal stems for free, and so far they look fine.
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:55 PM   #7
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Roar

Thanks for the heads up on TST. I did not yet get one, been too busy with other things. I'll have to research into that.

I will keep an eye on the stem seals. Why when they made trailer wheels they did not at least use a truck stem concept. This trying to seal in a contour deal between the rim radius's is bad news.

John
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #8
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I think I asked before what automotive/truck rims might fit the TT bolt pattern. That might let us get away from the TT rims to something more stable, if we could find something.

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Old 07-03-2011, 09:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363 View Post
I think I asked before what automotive/truck rims might fit the TT bolt pattern. That might let us get away from the TT rims to something more stable, if we could find something.

jim
Jim,

Good question and I have not researched that approach. But there are a few things to overcome. The wheel offset, with the way the trailer hub/bearings are made the rim offset has to be the same as the trailer wheel or too much overhung load will take it's toll on the bearings.

All the truck rims that I have seen where the stem comes out of the ID if the rim are big heavy rims with big tires on them and they are on a 5/8" hole to handle the bigger stems. I have not yet come across a heavy truck tire rim that small in diameter before. So finding one may be an issue.

I'm sure cost it what is driving this. It is not that one cannot design a trailer tire with a heavy metal valve stem to mount on the ID of the rim and hang out through the spoke, I think it comes to cost. The snap in stems are a fraction of the price and in the RV industry the words heavy duty do not exist. Saving a whopping $10 on running gear is a big deal and very few even complain about it so why should they offer it?

Valve stems rank up there with trailer tires. The tire industry knows how to manufacture a quality trailer tire that will not crack and not destroy itself. Yet in the current state of the industry finding a high quality trailer tire does not exist. If any one knows of one, please post. If you cannot buy a high quality trailer tire why would they offer a high quality valve stem?? I'm hoping in 3 years when I need new trailer tires this changes as I'm then facing this same delima, what brand of tire do I get??? Errrrrrr.

Sorry for the rant... this one just plain frosts me. OK rant off.

John
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:35 AM   #10
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JohnB, Nothing at all wrong with a rant. In fact I enjoy them from other people. It is my own rants that do me in.

I would like to know the relationship of automotive rims to Travel Trailer rims though. It might help if I ever have to borrow a spare sometime, if for no other reason. Like on my utility trailer using a Ford rim, I might could make do for a short distance with a Ford rim on my TT.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:26 PM   #11
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Hello John,
I,m a little late in responding to your dilema. I too bought TPMS and used them well last year on my trip to the east coast. The company I got them from, Truck Systems Tech., Inc., did recommend to place them on metal valve stems. They didn't say why, but I found out why. I had no problems with the stems or the system. They worked well. But when I got home, I noticed that there was some scuff marks on the trailer rims around the stems. Now I knew why they recommend metal stems. The rubber stems flex to much with the added weight on the ends. I haven't yet, but I too want to replace the rubber stems with metal ones. I've been following this blog and then I remembered that last year I replace my trailer rims with 15x6 inch rims to accommate the higher pressure of the "D" rated tires I had installed. I still have the original spare that came with the trailer plus two spares on new 15x6" rims. I noticed a difference in width of the rim metal on the new rims of about 1/4". More flat metal than on the original rim. I wonder if this makes a difference? I am going to attempt to have metal valves installed to replace the rubber ones. Will let you know. Incidentally, the rims I got were mfg. by Dextar.

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Old 08-14-2011, 08:37 AM   #12
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Jim,

You should be able to find rims for your Sunline, I did for my '86 T-1661. I went to my local reputable tire/rim dealer. I'm sorry I don't recall what they cost me, but going to the aluminum rims was a great decision. NO MORE RUSTY rims.


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Old 08-16-2011, 08:34 PM   #13
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Jim

Yes the added vibration of the TPM sensor whizzing around on the end of the stem is the reported problem. The rubber stems will fatigue and then leak. That is the research I had found.

The TST system, how has it worked for you? I have not yet bought one but was considering the TST.

Thanks

John
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:02 PM   #14
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John,
The TST system worked well for me. I got 8 sensors for the tt and tow vehicle. No problem with the RF range from the rear axle to the receiver on the the dash. They do include an extra antenna in case you need it. I like that you can monitor both heat and PSI. It's sort of a relief to know ahead of time if a problem is going to happen. I've had tire problems before and I don't like surprises. The only problem is with the rubber stems wobbling. I have the high pressure stems and they do wobble. Fortunately I experienced no troubles.

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Old 05-10-2013, 08:48 AM   #15
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John B
It's been almost 2 years since you did your metel stems.
How about an up date. Are they working out? How is your TST system? Any problems?
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:17 PM   #16
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Hi Jim,

Well.... Since this post I have had 3 tire failures.... but not from the metal stems...

See post 32 http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...s-12045-3.html

My new 16" rims work prefect with metal stems. They worked prefect from the get go on metal stems. The rim is made different than on the 15" rims were the hole was punched through the curve. That said, I moved those 15" tires with the same metal stems to my new tilt deck equipment trailer with 4 new tires on them last summer. So those stems are still doing good, just they are not on the camper.

Now that I have been through this, I will only use metal stems or at least hi pressure rubber snap in's. The standard trailer snap, ah nope.

The TST tire pressure monitor, with so many other things going on, including an LT tire upgrade out of necessity, the TST went on hold. It is still a good thing to do and will do in the semi near future.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 05-13-2013, 08:38 PM   #17
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Jim..

FOr what it's worth, I have the TST507 system and love it. I have a total of eight sensors and run them on truck and trailer. The new truck has sensors already inside the tires, but they are grossly inadequate. During our trip this weekend, I developed a slow leak in one tire. The truck's TPMS simply said: "Low tire pressure" It did not indicate which tire it was. The TST picked it up as the right rear tire and showed that I had lost 20PSI in it.

A quick trip to a tire shop this morning and I was all fixed up and ready to go.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:08 PM   #18
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Thanks Gary,

I've been looking at TPMS. To many choices. I think I've settled on the TST507 external.
Stock systems very, my Jeep reads psi on every wheel and shows warning at 5 lb. loss. My daughters car just throws a low tire message but not psi or which tire is low. I haven't seen any stock systems showing tire temperature yet, which I consider a good feature.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:23 AM   #19
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John & Gary

John; tried your metel valve stem applacation on 2 tires while I had them off greasing wheel bearings. Must have some good luck going. Both sealed first try.

Gary; Ordered TST705 yesterday
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2006 GMC Sierra Duramax 2500HD 4X4
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:07 PM   #20
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Jim, great!!! I'm glad they sealed. Good. They can be a royal pain on a curved rim when they do not seal.
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