How Much Can I Tow?

[apackoftwo]

I have been thinking about purchasing a bigger TT or even fifth wheel

And trying to figure out just how much I could pull with the truck I currently have. I posted this on an Escapees Forum and got a 6 paragraph
answer about weights but not an answer to "How Much Can I Pull"

So I did some math myself and what I came up with was a shock!

The bottom line is, the way I figured I can't pull much. The gentleman I bought the truck from was pulling a big fifth wheel Apparently he was lucky

I just want a confirmation if I figured this out correctly, or not??


I subtracted the gross CAT Scale Weight of Truck 6,380 from GM's
Gross Combined Wt Reading There are 3 numbers here so I assume that the higher number is for a 4:10 axle 14,500 and 13,000 is for the 3.73 axle which my truck has

13,000 Gross Combined Wt Reading
- 6,380 CAT Scale Weight of Truck
= 6,620 GROSS Trailer Weight

Is that correct??? Or can I add some of the truck's GVWR weight since its 8600 and I am at 6,380?

I am so confused! LOL! HELP!



INFORMATION:

I have a 1997 Chevy Silverado 6.5L Turbo Diesel, 130,000 miles and maintained
It also has an air lift system


The manufacture's label on the inside of the door:

GVWR 8600
GAWR Frt 3800
GAWR 6000


CAT Scale Weight of Truck
Loaded with all passengers, (myself and my puppy) gear, full tank of gas,inflated tires (E load) according to manufacture label

Steer Axle 3480
Drive Axle 2900
Gross Weight 6,380


Specs from Chevy Forum VIN check include;

Gross Combined Wt Reading; 14,500 , 13,000, 12,000
I don't know why there are 3 numbers here?

The only other weight with 3 numbers associated with the category is Passenger Capacity with
3, 5, 1 temp front/3-pass rear, 6 (3.0 min 6.0max)


There is another manufacture label pertaining to a slide in camper.

Cargo Weight Rating = 2061 lb
Dimension “A” = 36 IN / “B” = 000 IN

So how much can I tow?

[apackoftwo]

I found this T-2499 and I am wondering IF I can even safety pull it?
Gross weight is 7,000 and Hitch weight 755 lbs

Looks super clean! But then I was reading somewhere here about a problem with the hitch frame on the 2499?

What is the problem and how can you tell if the hitch frame has a problem?

[JohnB]

Joan,

I will post more later. That link to the 2004 T2499 has no A frame issues. It was on the older frame. The 2005 was the 1st year of the frame changes. That said, if the frame has been repaired on a 2005 or newer, then the frame issues can be solved.

Also heads up on the tongue weight. That dry catalog weight is accurate, however this floor plan will load to 1,000# to 1,200# with out much trouble. Mine 2004 T2499 weighed 1,200# when loaded ready to camp with no fresh water.

Your 3/4 ton pickup suspension can handle the T2499 tongue weight, that is not an issue. We will have to check the receiver rating. Look for a sticker on the truck receiver for a rating in "Weight Distributing" mode. Some of the older Chevy's had a 1,200# rating, some a 1,000# rating . Your sticker will look like this. Again this was on a 1500, not a 2500 so the rating may be different.



More later on your tow ratings. Please confrim if you know your rear axle gear ratio? Is it for sure a 3.73? It may be, just asking.

More later

John

[apackoftwo]

Hi John,

The axle is a 3.73

I just looked at the label on the receiver and this is what it states;

Hitch Type
Weight Distributing Max Gross TRLR Weight(lbs) 8000 Max Tongue WT 800

Weight Carrying Ball Mount
Max Gross TRLR (lbs) 5000
Max Tongue Wt 500


That isn't much for a 2500 diesel

Originally Posted by JohnB

Joan,

I will post more later. That link to the 2004 T2499 has no A frame issues. It was on the older frame. The 2005 was the 1st year of the frame changes. That said, if the frame has been repaired on a 2005 or newer, then the frame issues can be solved.

Also heads up on the tongue weight. That dry catalog weight is accurate, however this floor plan will load to 1,000# to 1,200# with out much trouble. Mine 2004 T2499 weighed 1,200# when loaded ready to camp with no fresh water.

Your 3/4 ton pickup suspension can handle the T2499 tongue weight, that is not an issue. We will have to check the receiver rating. Look for a sticker on the truck receiver for a rating in "Weight Distributing" mode. Some of the older Chevy's had a 1,200# rating, some a 1,000# rating . Your sticker will look like this. Again this was on a 1500, not a 2500 so the rating may be different.



More later on your tow ratings. Please confrim if you know your rear axle gear ratio? Is it for sure a 3.73? It may be, just asking.

More later

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by apackoftwo

Hi John,

The axle is a 3.73

I just looked at the label on the receiver and this is what it states;

Hitch Type
Weight Distributing Max Gross TRLR Weight(lbs) 8000 Max Tongue WT 800

Weight Carrying Ball Mount
Max Gross TRLR (lbs) 5000
Max Tongue Wt 500


That isn't much for a 2500 diesel

Hi Joan,

Getting back to you. Been busy here lately.

Your truck receiver is going to be a limiting factor. 800# tongue weight in WD mode is not a lot on a 3/4 ton truck. But they made some that way in the older days. Some guys with 1 ton dually's only had 1,000#

The only way to get out of the receiver problem is to upgrade it to an aftermarket receiver. I had to do 2 of them on my trucks. Even the F350 limited me. In the older days, the big 3 would only install a receiver to align with the tow rating of the truck. And then they would stick a 10% factor on it for TW. Well for us with travel trailers, we have TW issues more then pull rating issues.

An aftermarket receiver is approx $200 more or less. The bigger issue is getting it mounted. This will be beyond what you can do. But if you have a handy person with mechanic tools, once past the frozen bolts... it is not a hard thing to do. How much rust is on yours is a good question.

Here is a little bit to help show what you are up against.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...rade-8841.html

The good news is your truck does not weigh a lot to start with empty.

INFORMATION:

I have a 1997 Chevy Silverado 6.5L Turbo Diesel, 130,000 miles and maintained
It also has an air lift system


The manufacture's label on the inside of the door:

GVWR 8600
GAWR Frt 3800
GAWR 6000


CAT Scale Weight of Truck
Loaded with all passengers, (myself and my puppy) gear, full tank of gas,inflated tires (E load) according to manufacture label

Steer Axle 3480
Drive Axle 2900
Gross Weight 6,380

Since your truck only weighs 6,380# and has lots of rear axle capacity once you get past the receiver upgrade, you can tow many of the Sunline campers.

You stated yours has a Turbo charger? if that is correct, that is good as it will help when you are out west at elevation to not loose a lot of power like a non turbo engine does.

So what is left for pulling? You start with the loaded ready to camp truck GVW. If yours is 6,380# loaded ready to hitch, (all camping gear in the truck you will tow with) then you subtract that GVW from the GCWR.

If GM rated your GCWR at 13,000# with the 3.73 rear axle ratio, then you subtract 13,000 - GVW 6,380# = 6,620# pull rating with no reserve capacity. Reserve capacity helps with "frontal area" and hills. Frontal area is the camper exposed to the wind beyond the truck rating. In many cases 60sq feet is where the truck rating was at. GM never use to tell us that in a truck manual. Some times the rating was lower, maybe higher, do not really know on the older trucks

In your case with the diesel you have a lot of low RPM torque which is good for towing. If you tow up to the limit, it will not feel as bad in the truck as it would with a gas engine from the same time period yours was made. Feel meaning the truck struggling to maintain speed going up hill is where you mostly feel it. In some cases the radiator or transmission cooler can be the weak link. You can't get rid of the heat.

The T2499 you linked, "after" a receiver upgrade to at least a 1,200# WD rated receiver, you can tow that camper without a bunch of issues. Your reserve capacity is limited but you have the diesel which helps this. Does not cure it, but helps it. My 2004, T2499 when fully loaded to camp, had a 1,200# loaded TW and weighed a little under 6,500#. So that camper will fit, again after the receiver fix.

You do have 2 things going for you, the diesel and 3/4 ton truck suspension. If you where to hook up to a camper the size of mine, 1,500 to 1,600# TW and 9,950# that would be a real problem for your truck. You would be over both the pull rating and the maybe getting close to the GVWR on the truck pending what else you have in the truck bed.

You mentioned 5th wheel, I'll see if I can hunt for some info on your truck. Some times the OEM's have a different tow rating for a 5th wheel. The rear axle weight GAWR-RR stays the same and the GVWR stays the same, but they some times allow more towing capacity. Look in your manual under 5th wheel towing and see if it says anything. GM's manual pre 2004 where lacking in the towing things needed to know.

In the TT line, if you target "loaded" 6,500# and 1,200 maybe 1,300# loaded TW, this is what fits to your ratings. Just about any Sunline 7,000# GVWR camper and managed down to the 6,500# of loaded weight and you do not have to worry too much about the TW as your truck will handle that, again after the receiver fix.

If you have your eye on a camper, it is easier to talk to a model as being a good match or not. There is more to a stable good towing rig then just the weights.

Hope this helps

John

[apackoftwo]

Hi John,

Lots of good info here as usual!

Yes it s a Turbo diesel. And yes the 6,380 is the gross weight of my truck, fully loaded with gear, full tank, tires inflated and me and Emme inside per the CAT scale I took it too here in Tucson

FIFTH WHEEL

There nothing in the owners manual under towing about a fifth wheel
The only thing pertains to a 7.4L diesel (mine is 6.5L) limits for fifth wheels that was slighly less than that particular engine's Max Trailer Wt.

It did have a slide in camper weight which is in my first message here

However, I did load up my trucks specs from running the VIN # on the Chevy Forum

This might be helpful. Here is the LINK on Scribd (its set to private)


I am not sure but is this Wt Distributing Hitch pertain to fifth wheels also?
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
5000 lbs (5000.0 min/5000.0max)
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
500 lbs (500.0 min/500.0max)
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
10,000 lbs
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
1000 lbs (1000.0 min/1000.0max)


If I find a fifth wheel maybe I can post it here.
I am partial to a wood frame. Better insulators, do not sweat like an aluminum framed, and cheaper to repair. For instance, Nash products are all still wood framed. Problem is those are heavier (probably can't pull) than those less substantial lite weights which I do not prefer (which I can pull)



Thanks Joan!






I looked in the owners manual and nothing about

Originally Posted by JohnB

Hi Joan,

Getting back to you. Been busy here lately.

Your truck receiver is going to be a limiting factor. 800# tongue weight in WD mode is not a lot on a 3/4 ton truck. But they made some that way in the older days. Some guys with 1 ton dually's only had 1,000#

The only way to get out of the receiver problem is to upgrade it to an aftermarket receiver. I had to do 2 of them on my trucks. Even the F350 limited me. In the older days, the big 3 would only install a receiver to align with the tow rating of the truck. And then they would stick a 10% factor on it for TW. Well for us with travel trailers, we have TW issues more then pull rating issues.

An aftermarket receiver is approx $200 more or less. The bigger issue is getting it mounted. This will be beyond what you can do. But if you have a handy person with mechanic tools, once past the frozen bolts... it is not a hard thing to do. How much rust is on yours is a good question.

Here is a little bit to help show what you are up against.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...rade-8841.html

The good news is your truck does not weigh a lot to start with empty.

Since your truck only weighs 6,380# and has lots of rear axle capacity once you get past the receiver upgrade, you can tow many of the Sunline campers.

You stated yours has a Turbo charger? if that is correct, that is good as it will help when you are out west at elevation to not loose a lot of power like a non turbo engine does.

So what is left for pulling? You start with the loaded ready to camp truck GVW. If yours is 6,380# loaded ready to hitch, (all camping gear in the truck you will tow with) then you subtract that GVW from the GCWR.

If GM rated your GCWR at 13,000# with the 3.73 rear axle ratio, then you subtract 13,000 - GVW 6,380# = 6,620# pull rating with no reserve capacity. Reserve capacity helps with "frontal area" and hills. Frontal area is the camper exposed to the wind beyond the truck rating. In many cases 60sq feet is where the truck rating was at. GM never use to tell us that in a truck manual. Some times the rating was lower, maybe higher, do not really know on the older trucks

In your case with the diesel you have a lot of low RPM torque which is good for towing. If you tow up to the limit, it will not feel as bad in the truck as it would with a gas engine from the same time period yours was made. Feel meaning the truck struggling to maintain speed going up hill is where you mostly feel it. In some cases the radiator or transmission cooler can be the weak link. You can't get rid of the heat.

The T2499 you linked, "after" a receiver upgrade to at least a 1,200# WD rated receiver, you can tow that camper without a bunch of issues. Your reserve capacity is limited but you have the diesel which helps this. Does not cure it, but helps it. My 2004, T2499 when fully loaded to camp, had a 1,200# loaded TW and weighed a little under 6,500#. So that camper will fit, again after the receiver fix.

You do have 2 things going for you, the diesel and 3/4 ton truck suspension. If you where to hook up to a camper the size of mine, 1,500 to 1,600# TW and 9,950# that would be a real problem for your truck. You would be over both the pull rating and the maybe getting close to the GVWR on the truck pending what else you have in the truck bed.

You mentioned 5th wheel, I'll see if I can hunt for some info on your truck. Some times the OEM's have a different tow rating for a 5th wheel. The rear axle weight GAWR-RR stays the same and the GVWR stays the same, but they some times allow more towing capacity. Look in your manual under 5th wheel towing and see if it says anything. GM's manual pre 2004 where lacking in the towing things needed to know.

In the TT line, if you target "loaded" 6,500# and 1,200 maybe 1,300# loaded TW, this is what fits to your ratings. Just about any Sunline 7,000# GVWR camper and managed down to the 6,500# of loaded weight and you do not have to worry too much about the TW as your truck will handle that, again after the receiver fix.

If you have your eye on a camper, it is easier to talk to a model as being a good match or not. There is more to a stable good towing rig then just the weights.

Hope this helps

John

[apackoftwo]

I just noticed that the weights from the truck label and the weights from the VIN # Specs are different?

Just looked at the label on the receiver and this is what it states;

Hitch Type
Weight Distributing Max Gross TRLR Weight(lbs) 8000 Max Tongue WT 800


VIN # Look Up;

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
10,000 lbs
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
1000 lbs (1000.0 min/1000.0max)

It is a 200 and 2,000 lb difference??

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by apackoftwo

Just looked at the label on the receiver and this is what it states;

Hitch Type
Weight Distributing Max Gross TRLR Weight(lbs) 8000 Max Tongue WT 800


VIN # Look Up;

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
10,000 lbs
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
1000 lbs (1000.0 min/1000.0max)

It is a 200 and 2,000 lb difference??

The sticker on the receiver would trump all other sources. If the sticker says 800# max in weight distributing, then that is the limit of that receiver.

The 800# rating is 200# lighter in loaded tongue weight capacity over the 1,000# rated one in using a weight distribution hitch.

For towing, (pulling) the 8,000# is 2,000# less trailer that can be towed, pulled, then the 10,000# rated receiver.


They rate for the 2 values, max tongue weight in WD mode and total pounds the trailer weighs towing it.

In the case of TT towing, it is often common to run out of tongue weight then pull rating.

It appears your truck does not have a 5th wheel rating. So the same weights would apply for towing a TT as a 5th wheel.

Hope this helps

John

[apackoftwo]

Ok then.

A general rule is that the tongue weight of a fifth wheel trailer is typically about 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. You will also want to know the approximate weight of everything that you plan to load into your trailer before calculating the estimated tongue weight to ensure you are getting the tongue weight of the trailer when it will be at its heaviest weight.

Soo trying to understand this exactly and using this Keystone as an example;

The GVWR of this Keystone is 8240 then the tongue weight is 1,648 lbs (20% of the gross trailer weight)

So then I could not pull it because I can only have 800lbs? Correct?

And if that is correct I don't think there is a fifth wheel I can pull then?

It doesn't seem right to me?

Originally Posted by JohnB

The sticker on the receiver would trump all other sources. If the sticker says 800# max in weight distributing, then that is the limit of that receiver.

The 800# rating is 200# lighter in loaded tongue weight capacity over the 1,000# rated one in using a weight distribution hitch.

For towing, (pulling) the 8,000# is 2,000# less trailer that can be towed, pulled, then the 10,000# rated receiver.


They rate for the 2 values, max tongue weight in WD mode and total pounds the trailer weighs towing it.

In the case of TT towing, it is often common to run out of tongue weight then pull rating.

It appears your truck does not have a 5th wheel rating. So the same weights would apply for towing a TT as a 5th wheel.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by apackoftwo

Ok then.

A general rule is that the tongue weight of a fifth wheel trailer is typically about 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. You will also want to know the approximate weight of everything that you plan to load into your trailer before calculating the estimated tongue weight to ensure you are getting the tongue weight of the trailer when it will be at its heaviest weight.

Soo trying to understand this exactly and using this Keystone as an example;

The GVWR of this Keystone is 8240 then the tongue weight is 1,648 lbs (20% of the gross trailer weight)

So then I could not pull it because I can only have 800lbs? Correct?

And if that is correct I don't think there is a fifth wheel I can pull then?

It doesn't seem right to me?

Hi Joan,

I'll try to explain this. If I loose you, tell me were this does not make sense.

I do not know were the statement above came from, you seem to be taking what they are saying out of context.

I "think" the wording "tongue weight" is mixing you up when we are talking 5th wheels.

On a conventional trailer, a travel trailer, they are pulled by the truck using a receiver. In your case, that receiver is rated at 8,000# pulling and 800# max trailer tongue weight for a conventional trailer, a travel trailer. Means you hook up to the ball on the hitch head and tow that way. The 800# is only because of the physical receiver is rated that way. Not the truck.

On a 5th wheel, it is often called "pin weight" which is the weight of the camper pushing down on the pin that goes into a 5th wheel hitch which mounts inside your truck bed. Not on the truck receiver in the back like you tow your camper. The pin weight of a 5er can also be called the 5er tongue weight or hitch weight and all 3 mean the same thing. The weight of the camper pushing down on the pin that goes into the 5th wheel hitch in your truck bed.

Your truck has different requirements and ratings when using a 5th wheel hitch in the truck bed then it does for a receiver mounted WD shank with a tow ball you hook to the TT.

For a 5th wheel, the truck rear axle rating should not be exceeded and the truck GVWR.

In your case you said this.

INFORMATION:

I have a 1997 Chevy Silverado 6.5L Turbo Diesel, 130,000 miles and maintained
It also has an air lift system


The manufacture's label on the inside of the door:

GVWR 8600
GAWR Frt 3800
GAWR 6000


CAT Scale Weight of Truck
Loaded with all passengers, (myself and my puppy) gear, full tank of gas,inflated tires (E load) according to manufacture label

Steer Axle 3480
Drive Axle 2900
Gross Weight 6,380

Your rear axle rating is: GAWR-RR or 6,000#.
Your cat scale of the truck shows the rear axle weight is 2,900# less any camper.

Subtracting the two, 6,000 - 2,900 = 3,100# of rear axle capacity. That capacity is available for the weight of a 5th wheel hitch in the bed and the pin weight of a 5th wheel.

BUT... there is always a but....

You cannot exceed the GVWR of the truck.

Your GVWR is 8,600#
Your cat scale GVW is 6,380#

Subtracting the two, 8,600 - 6,380 = 2,220# of cargo capacity or payload of the truck left before reaching GVWR.

So, the 2,200# of payload trumps the 3,100# of rear axle capacity so you do not overload the entire truck rating.

You can add 2,200# worth of 5th wheel hitch plus 5th wheel pin weight and not exceed the truck weight rating.

So that is the truck weights. Notice on a 5th wheel that has nothing to do with the 800# tongue weight rating of the receiver.

There is one more but... Now you need to look at the GCWR to make sure you can pull the camper of a certain loaded GVW.

In your case since GM did not declare a different pull rating for a 5th wheel on your truck, we would use the:

If GM rated your GCWR at 13,000# with the 3.73 rear axle ratio, then you subtract 13,000 - GVW 6,380# = 6,620# pull rating with no reserve capacity.

So using all of your truck on a 5th wheel,

2,200# is the "max" combined weight of a 5th wheel hitch plus the loaded pin weight of the camper born by the truck to not exceed the truck GVWR of 8,600#.

and

6,620# is the "max" the total GVW of the loaded 5th wheel weighs to not exceed the GCWR of 13,000#. And this is with no reserve towing capacity.

In this case, you would need to find a loaded with camping gear 5th wheel weighing at or less then 6,620#. There is no problem with the pin weight as you have a lot of capacity on the rear axle for that. The issue will be finding a 5th wheel that only has a "loaded" GVW of not more than 6,620#

I'm not as up on the 5er's as I am on TT's. Rockwood makes some light weight 5ers, but even they are over your ratings when you add most any camping gear. The lightest text book one less battery and LP gas is 6,592# empty trailer that I found. I'm sure I missed one somewhere else.

Rockwood Signature Ultra Lite Fifth Wheels / Travel Trailers by Forest River RV

That 13,000# GCWR is really a shocker of the older trucks. The new 1/2 ton pickups have lots more pulling power.

Maybe other SOC member know of lighter 5th wheels. Well there is the single axle Scamp but I assumed you wanted more room and weight capacity.

Hope this helps

John

[apackoftwo]

Hi John,

Sorry this is such a loooooong thread and for taking so much time.

But just so you know I am not a total idiot, I do understand the difference between "tongue weight" and "pin weight" I just didn't know the "how to" to figure out what the pin weight would be for my truck!

All the numbers and acronyms all start to run together after awhile

I don't know if this matters since the GVWR is what it is but the information I originally gave for the label on the receiver is for an after market Draw-Tite.

The truck number I found on the upper rubber part of the bumper which confirms the numbers here I got from the Chevy Forum VIN Decoder

Pics below

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
5000 lbs (5000.0 min/5000.0max)
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
500 lbs (500.0 min/500.0max)
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.
10,000 lbs
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.
1000 lbs (1000.0 min/1000.0max)

And yes the 13,000 is a shock!

Trying to determine what I could safety tow was never an issue until I started thinking about buying something bigger and I knew it could pull my T-1950. And as I said the previous owner pulled a big fifth wheel so
I ASSUMED that the truck could!

I also ASSUME that is the correct Gross Combined Wt Rating since there are three numbers given for that with no explanation,
14,500, 13,000, 12,000 lbs

I ASSUME the rating is per axle 14,500 = 4.10 , 13,000 = 3.73 (my truck) and 12,000 = 3.42


So looking at what I have to work with, its a trailer and not a fifth wheel

Not that I mind a trailer however EVERYONE has told me how much easier a fifth wheel is to maneuver and who wouldn't want that??

Thanks again for all your time, its appreciated!

[JohnB]

Hi Joan,

Hey, no issues here on explaining. Yes, all these ratings can be confusing until they are explained and understood how they come about. I have no problem explaining to anyone needing help on towing to help them understand. So ask away!

The worst rating words is the infamous "Tow Rating". Those words have have gotten more good folks into issues as often times many dealers do not explain what it means. An unsuspecting person looks at that number and can quickly think, yeh I can tow that weight number. Well, technically they can if they only weigh 150#, have a stripped model truck of options and zero gear in the truck and do not overrun the receiver or rear axle rating with loaded TT tongue weight. But who goes camping in a camper like that?? very few to none. Every thing added to the truck subtracts from that number to leave you with what is left for the camper. You did the right, weighed the truck empty the way you go camping. Then we subtract that ready to camp GVW from the GCWR (the real pull rating) and what is left is the amount the drive train of the TV is rated to tow.

We never talked about the 5er weights in your prior reply's, so now you know and that is what the cyber camper fire is all about. Helping good campers.

Ahh an after market receiver. That explains the 800#. GM at least had the 1,000# in WD mode as listed in the pic I showed on a 1500 Silverado.

If your truck is not a 4 x 4, then you can do a ring gear change on the rear axle to the 4.10 ratio and pick up from more pull rating. Up to 14,500# that picks up an extra 1,500#. I only mention not a 4 x 4 as if you have that, then you have to change the front axle as well. Double but a double price hit. Your 3/4 ton suspension allows you to haul more TT tongue weight or 5er pin weight. You are still capped at the 8,600# GVWR but the pull rating is what you are up agasint the most. A rear axle ratio change may be ~ $800 maybe $1,000. It is however cheaper then a new TV if that extra weight rating is all you need for the camper of your dreams.

For more TT tongue weight, then upgrading the receiver can address that too.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

FYI, this 5,000# pull and 5,00# TW rating is if you put a tow ball in the bumper of the truck and want to tow a small utility trailer. Again yet another rating number... I caution on using the bumper as turning is limited to not hit the bumper. Best for towing trailers is to use the receiver with a WD hitch or a weight carrying draw bar.

[apackoftwo]

John,

"Cyber camp fire" I like that!

Cyber Campfire.jpg


I DO appreciate all your help though

It kinda leaves me in a pickle. I could up grade to a 4:10 but gas mileage would suffer

If not then I could get upgrade the receiver

IF I upgraded the receiver, could I pull something like a T-264 or 67SR? Or would I have to upgrade the axle?
The dry weight on both is slightly over 6,000 lbs and the GVWR on both is 8,600

At this point my "dream rig" would have a slide, walk around bed, bigger grey, water tank, roomier bathroom and of course more storage. I have been full timing since Oct in my little T-1950 and although I love her its just not enough room. It's what I had and so I though, "lets see if I can do it!" Some folks can, but apparently I am not one of them,(unless the Lord gives me the grace to do it!

The 1950SR in the cheery wood are really beautiful little coaches and I was told, the slide is 3ft deep, but the grey and black tank are the same size as the T-1950, (the water tank is bigger). No walk around bed

There are two I was looking at. One for sale here and another on Craigslist HERE

The curious thing is that the Craigslist owner have listed the length as 22ft but my T-1950 is listed as 20'4''

I know the kitchen on the 1950SR has more kitchen counter space with drawers but I guess I am curious if it was a different frame to accommodate the extra 2 feet in length of the 1950SR over a T-1950?

Originally Posted by JohnB

Hi Joan,

Hey, no issues here on explaining. Yes, all these ratings can be confusing until they are explained and understood how they come about. I have no problem explaining to anyone needing help on towing to help them understand. So ask away!

The worst rating words is the infamous "Tow Rating". Those words have have gotten more good folks into issues as often times many dealers do not explain what it means. An unsuspecting person looks at that number and can quickly think, yeh I can tow that weight number. Well, technically they can if they only weigh 150#, have a stripped model truck of options and zero gear in the truck and do not overrun the receiver or rear axle rating with loaded TT tongue weight. But who goes camping in a camper like that?? very few to none. Every thing added to the truck subtracts from that number to leave you with what is left for the camper. You did the right, weighed the truck empty the way you go camping. Then we subtract that ready to camp GVW from the GCWR (the real pull rating) and what is left is the amount the drive train of the TV is rated to tow.

We never talked about the 5er weights in your prior reply's, so now you know and that is what the cyber camper fire is all about. Helping good campers.

Ahh an after market receiver. That explains the 800#. GM at least had the 1,000# in WD mode as listed in the pic I showed on a 1500 Silverado.

If your truck is not a 4 x 4, then you can do a ring gear change on the rear axle to the 4.10 ratio and pick up from more pull rating. Up to 14,500# that picks up an extra 1,500#. I only mention not a 4 x 4 as if you have that, then you have to change the front axle as well. Double but a double price hit. Your 3/4 ton suspension allows you to haul more TT tongue weight or 5er pin weight. You are still capped at the 8,600# GVWR but the pull rating is what you are up agasint the most. A rear axle ratio change may be ~ $800 maybe $1,000. It is however cheaper then a new TV if that extra weight rating is all you need for the camper of your dreams.

For more TT tongue weight, then upgrading the receiver can address that too.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by apackoftwo

It kinda leaves me in a pickle. I could up grade to a 4:10 but gas mileage would suffer

If not then I could get upgrade the receiver

IF I upgraded the receiver, could I pull something like a T-264 or 67SR? Or would I have to upgrade the axle?
The dry weight on both is slightly over 6,000 lbs and the GVWR on both is 8,600

At this point my "dream rig" would have a slide, walk around bed, bigger grey, water tank, roomier bathroom and of course more storage. I have been full timing since Oct in my little T-1950 and although I love her its just not enough room. It's what I had and so I though, "lets see if I can do it!" Some folks can, but apparently I am not one of them,(unless the Lord gives me the grace to do it!

The 1950SR in the cheery wood are really beautiful little coaches and I was told, the slide is 3ft deep, but the grey and black tank are the same size as the T-1950, (the water tank is bigger). No walk around bed

There are two I was looking at. One for sale here and another on Craigslist HERE

The curious thing is that the Craigslist owner have listed the length as 22ft but my T-1950 is listed as 20'4''

I know the kitchen on the 1950SR has more kitchen counter space with drawers but I guess I am curious if it was a different frame to accommodate the extra 2 feet in length of the 1950SR over a T-1950?

Hi Joan

I understand the situation you are in.

Here is what your truck can pull up to the full limit with no reserve as GM has declared the truck can do with your current loaded truck weights

CAT Scale Weight of Truck
Loaded with all passengers, (myself and my puppy) gear, full tank of gas,inflated tires (E load) according to manufacture label

Steer Axle 3480
Drive Axle 2900
Gross Weight 6,380

The camper needs to fall into these limits.

6,620# loaded camper GVW before reaching GCWR

The camper can have a high tongue weight as part of that 6,620#. After a receiver fix, loaded tongue weight of a TT is not a problem. You can upgrade to a 1,200# or 1,500# in WD mode 2" rated receiver and any tongue weight up to the rate of the receiver. Your 3/4 ton suspension can handle the loaded TW once your past the receiver fix.

For quick reference, your truck can handle and you more than likely can manage to 6,620# camper and gear on most any of the Sunline 7,000# GVWR campers. Most of them come in at 4,700 to ~ 5,000# GVW empty. That leaves a good 1,500# of camping stuff. You just pick the layout you like. Even the T2499 with the 1,200# loaded TW is not a problem. Odds are you have 1,000 to 1,200# of camping gear.

I will say this though, that 6,620# is "all" of your towing pull rating. There is no reserve pulling capacity left. Your smaller diesel may not feel is as bad as a gas truck would. If you find you really do not like the performance of towing hills being at the rating, then the rear axle change will get you the reserve. By towing a 6,620# GVW camper, you are running the truck at full capacity. You can tow it, but the increased frontal area of the camper exposed to the wind above 60 sq feet will fell sluggish.

Right now with your current camper, you may not have any sluggish issues as you have a lot of excess reserve capacity.

It is true fuel mileage empty may be a little less not towing on the 4.10. While towing you may not notice it much. The truck is not working as hard and it may be a wash in fuel economy.

You mentioned the T264SR (6,130# dry) and the T-276SR (6,085# dry)

You can handle the tongue weight of either of those 2 models loaded, again after the receiver upgrade.

A problem with those campers is they are taller and heavier. They create more wind resistance and that eats into your already straining lack of towing reserve capacity. Both of those campers may come in at approx, 6,300# with LP in the tanks, a battery and spare tire. This only leaves 320# of camping gear before you are up against the GCWR. If they have any extra options, this gets worse and the gear capacity is then less than 320#. Practically, by the numbers this is not doable. You will not be able to reduce full timing camping gear to 320#. I would say you are not going to be happy long term. If you upgrade to the 4.10 rear axle, that will help.

If you are after a slide model in a Sunline, they make a 2007 T257SR. It is on a 7,000GVWR chassis and weighs 4,930# dry. Full walk around bed. It is rear kitchen layout. Finding one may be an issue. They have made a coach slide camper prior to the 2007 unit, just you need to hunt which years. Sunline Fan I thought has a coach slide unit once. He fixed it up and then sold it.

The T195SR, Now that camper is different. That does not show up in the catalogs. It may be a little longer then the T1950 due to the slide system. I also think it is built heavier on purpose to handle the slide and have a higher then your T1950 GVWR. It might be on a 7,000# GVWR then the 5,500# GVWR of your T1950. They are a very nice camper. I have been in one at the Buttonwood M & G. It is amazingly bigger then the T1950 up front due to the slide. But it still has a corner bed.

These 2 folks have/had them. I do not know if Ray still has his.
Ray & Lynn from PA

Marshall and Sue may have theirs.
Purplesuebug

If you PM them, they may know of weights and the lengths.

Hope this helps

John

[apackoftwo]

Cyber Campfire.jpg

Ya notice I need to have these FACTS (numbers) repeated to me to force me into reality LOL!! Thanks for your patience

I have already been searching around for 2007 T257SR and have found a few sold ones so they are out there. The cherry wood is lovely and it looks to me that they also used a bleached Maple which is very nice too

Still considering the 1950SR

Also was looking at this TT 2001 Holiday Rambler Alumascape 25RKS TT
GVWR 7,500

The older ones were quality built before HR was sold, twice

I think it getting harder and harder to find quality built RVs

Many of these builders, like Sunline have went out of business or sold off like HR. Excel just went belly up a couple of weeks ago

Just makes it more difficult to find a good one. However, let the search begin! And if anyone reading this just happens to run across one of these models, you know where to message me

Originally Posted by JohnB

Hi Joan

I understand the situation you are in.

Here is what your truck can pull up to the full limit with no reserve as GM has declared the truck can do with your current loaded truck weights

The camper needs to fall into these limits.

6,620# loaded camper GVW before reaching GCWR

The camper can have a high tongue weight as part of that 6,620#. After a receiver fix, loaded tongue weight of a TT is not a problem. You can upgrade to a 1,200# or 1,500# in WD mode 2" rated receiver and any tongue weight up to the rate of the receiver. Your 3/4 ton suspension can handle the loaded TW once your past the receiver fix.

For quick reference, your truck can handle and you more than likely can manage to 6,620# camper and gear on most any of the Sunline 7,000# GVWR campers. Most of them come in at 4,700 to ~ 5,000# GVW empty. That leaves a good 1,500# of camping stuff. You just pick the layout you like. Even the T2499 with the 1,200# loaded TW is not a problem. Odds are you have 1,000 to 1,200# of camping gear.

I will say this though, that 6,620# is "all" of your towing pull rating. There is no reserve pulling capacity left. Your smaller diesel may not feel is as bad as a gas truck would. If you find you really do not like the performance of towing hills being at the rating, then the rear axle change will get you the reserve. By towing a 6,620# GVW camper, you are running the truck at full capacity. You can tow it, but the increased frontal area of the camper exposed to the wind above 60 sq feet will fell sluggish.

Right now with your current camper, you may not have any sluggish issues as you have a lot of excess reserve capacity.

It is true fuel mileage empty may be a little less not towing on the 4.10. While towing you may not notice it much. The truck is not working as hard and it may be a wash in fuel economy.

You mentioned the T264SR (6,130# dry) and the T-276SR (6,085# dry)

You can handle the tongue weight of either of those 2 models loaded, again after the receiver upgrade.

A problem with those campers is they are taller and heavier. They create more wind resistance and that eats into your already straining lack of towing reserve capacity. Both of those campers may come in at approx, 6,300# with LP in the tanks, a battery and spare tire. This only leaves 320# of camping gear before you are up against the GCWR. If they have any extra options, this gets worse and the gear capacity is then less than 320#. Practically, by the numbers this is not doable. You will not be able to reduce full timing camping gear to 320#. I would say you are not going to be happy long term. If you upgrade to the 4.10 rear axle, that will help.

If you are after a slide model in a Sunline, they make a 2007 T257SR. It is on a 7,000GVWR chassis and weighs 4,930# dry. Full walk around bed. It is rear kitchen layout. Finding one may be an issue. They have made a coach slide camper prior to the 2007 unit, just you need to hunt which years. Sunline Fan I thought has a coach slide unit once. He fixed it up and then sold it.

The T195SR, Now that camper is different. That does not show up in the catalogs. It may be a little longer then the T1950 due to the slide system. I also think it is built heavier on purpose to handle the slide and have a higher then your T1950 GVWR. It might be on a 7,000# GVWR then the 5,500# GVWR of your T1950. They are a very nice camper. I have been in one at the Buttonwood M & G. It is amazingly bigger then the T1950 up front due to the slide. But it still has a corner bed.

These 2 folks have/had them. I do not know if Ray still has his.
Ray & Lynn from PA

Marshall and Sue may have theirs.
Purplesuebug

If you PM them, they may know of weights and the lengths.

Hope this helps

John

[vallez58]

Any idea where the fuse box is located in 1986? Thanks

[bunjin]

You may find this model of interest if you want a walk around, yet not a large nor as heavy as the T-2499. The T-2363 is also a nice model in my opinion.

The TT is actually 21'-11" total length according to the Sunline brochure.

Camper- Sunline Solaris - 2005 REDUCED

[apackoftwo]

Those are nice models and hard to find. However, its not much larger than my T-1950 and although it does have the walk around bed, less kitchen counter space than mine.

But that is a GREAT deal!

Thanks for posting but I am still hoping I can find a 2007 257SR

Originally Posted by bunjin

You may find this model of interest if you want a walk around, yet not a large nor as heavy as the T-2499. The T-2363 is also a nice model in my opinion.

The TT is actually 21'-11" total length according to the Sunline brochure.

Camper- Sunline Solaris - 2005 REDUCED

[Tireman9]

On the 97 truck isn't there a factory spec for Gross Combined Weight Rating? GCWR
This figure relates to safe stopping distance and is not simply the total of the GVWR + the hitch capacity.
Think of it this way. I could probably weld a Class 4 (10,000) hitch on the back end of a Chevy S-10 but there is no way the S-10 could stop if it was pulling a 10k# TT.