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Old 07-25-2008, 05:51 AM   #141
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Kitty, Did your guy say exactly what he's going to do for your "fix"? I'm sure you'll post picutres when he's all done
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:23 PM   #142
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RE: Bent frame front cross-member '07 Sunline Solaris T2499

JohnB,

I went back to the RV storage lot and tried to get some measurements and pictures of the tongue A-frame C-channel. Both sides seem to have a slight downward bend (very slight - difficult to measure) near midpoint between the header and WD attachment. The difference is noticed when I use the wood block cut from the same piece of wood as a feeler. It fits with a nice feel at either end next to the standoff wood blocks but does not fit in the middle area. I have included pictures showing both the right and left side A-frame. There are also pictures showing that both the legs of the tongue A-frame are bent in at the header and sprung outward between the header and ball-hitch assembly.

The next five pictures show the measurements along the right side of tongue starting from the back to the front.






The next two pictures show the wood block feeler near the standoff blocks.
front

rear


The next four pictures show the left side of the A-frame measurements from back to front.





This photo shows my build number [/img]# 21


The next two photos show the bends in the right side A-frame C-channel (near header is pushed inward and bend outward between the header and ball hitch assembly).



The next seven pictures show the left side bends in the A-frame C-channel.








I only have a 1" micrometer so I could not get it over the A-frame C-channel flange to measure the web thickness. Since my A-frame is only a four inch C-channel I could not reach the area that you referenced on your photo (my c-channel does not extend enough below the hitch coupler as your 6" c-channel). I hope some of these pictures help to explain/understand what has happened or is happening to some of our 2499 frames. By the by, my header is 12 ga, and not 10 ga as PAM has indicated in her post. Let's keep this dialogue going and maybe we'll come to a good FIX for this problem. I have not heard anything from Lippert after I posted Chuck Bell's phone number. I hope their people are developing a GOOD Fix, otherwise we may need to get NHTSA to investigate if this frame failure is a safety matter or not. There must certainly be more than just a handfull of owners with this same problem.

Larry
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Old 07-26-2008, 07:05 PM   #143
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Went out this evening and checked to see if there was any bend in the tongue of my repaired frame. The only variance I could detect was ~.03 -.04 of an inch from the WD point to about 18" behind the header - so I'd say there's not much, if any, bend at all.

What I did find was something more interesting - the thickness of my header is .094 of an inch, which translates to 3/32 of an inch, which, by my reference manual, is 13 gauge sheet steel.

So is this simply just a case where some frames were manufactured with steel of the wrong gauge? Interestingly, 12 gauge steel is .1094 of an inch - 16% thicker and who knows how much stronger?

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Old 07-26-2008, 07:51 PM   #144
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Tweety,

My welder/heavy duty trailer builder rattled off so many things that he saw wrong with the construction of the header, battery rails & tongue, and then when he started to toss out all the re-inforcing he was going to do, to be honest I lost track. He WAS "PO'd" to put it politely about the construction & quality of the frame work. Said IT WAS NOT safe to tow. But, he told me once he's done with it I will never have to doubt it's strength.

On a side note, how high was your lift to Tweety?

I'm leaning toward the 3 inch lift.

Kitty
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:31 AM   #145
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Kitty,

I'd go with the higher one, but remember to slow down just a little more for corners due to a higher center of gravity.

We got a TON of lift with our axle flip, so we'll probably never drag. 5" was the total.

3" and wheels will probably net you a sense of serenity and happiness when you climb hills in and out of driveways, sites, and wherever else you go.

Resetting the hitch isn't too hard, I'm sure that any place that you frequent would be more than happy to help walk you through it. As a matter of fact, your trailer fella should be able to do it for you without a problem.

**NOTE: To anyone with a fixed header issue, I'd get and keep a receipt showing that the deader has been fixed, just to document it to future purchasers. **
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:52 PM   #146
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Tweety went up 4". Believe it or not she barely misses the sidewalk as we pull out of the driveway. But, as they say...a miss is as good as a mile
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Old 07-27-2008, 02:12 PM   #147
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"a miss is as good as a mile..."

and even if you still do snag up a little, a little is far better than a lot in this instance.
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:40 PM   #148
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Kitty's modification

Kitty,

I would go with at least 4". My axles were "flipped" and I fra'. I now clear my sidewalk and driveway that I was always scraping. Towing has not been a problem either.

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Old 07-27-2008, 04:43 PM   #149
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Kitty's modifications

Kitty,

What I meant to say was, I gained 4" on the flip. Have encountered no problems.

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Old 07-27-2008, 06:51 PM   #150
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A few more pics of the level on my frame with tape measure that you CAN read. Joh, I did my best, used 3 sockets(same height) one at each end and the 3rd one to slide along the aluminum level, it got tight about 6 inches on each side of the header, but did go thru. I'm sure I didn't do things totally correct, but I came up wih about 1/16 of an inch less space in that area. Here are some more pics:









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Old 07-28-2008, 11:13 AM   #151
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I have an appointment with a welding shop on Aug. 6 to reinforce the frame. I was a bit surprised when the first two turned me down on account of liability concerns. The third shop seemed to be ok with it. He said he understood what I wanted and that he didn't need to see the trailer first. So I'll keep my fingers crossed for no surprises next Wed.

I intend to clear off the tongue except for the battery, which I'll remove on their yard so I don't get a ticket for no breakaway brakes. I'm going to unthread the propane hose at the cast iron pipe so the regulator isn't out in the dirt and also cap the pipe before traveling. Anything else I need to know before undoing all this and hooking it up again after??

I'm assuming they'll know how to protect the Darco membrane and the fiberglass front. Any welders out there who could tell me what they "should" be doing, I'd appreciate it.

Henry
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Old 07-28-2008, 01:51 PM   #152
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It would be nice if Lippert would come through with some recommendations!

I wouldn't think that you would have to remove the propane hose and cylinders. Maybe Pam and Steve could tell us how Lippert handled the preparation for their reinforcement?

My Sunline goes in tommorrow to the local ex-Sunline dealer for the proposed fix.
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:07 PM   #153
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We took off the gas bottles and battery. The propane hoses were not removed. They didn't do anything to protect the underbelly, and it didn't effect it.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:08 PM   #154
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Hi Folks

Catching up on a few responses.

Larry,

It looks like you have about 1/16” horizontal bow along the bottom. This amount “could” be from actual bending and or part of it from original manufacturing. I was actually shocked both of my 2004’s where so exactly straight. However you have from what I can see from the pic, considerable side twisting going on. WOW. Your header is toast and you’re A Frame is not great. Pending who fixes yours, in your specific case, if the side twisting is as ugly as it looks in person as it is in those pics, it might be easier to do some replacing of certain a parts rather then repair.

The actual price of the raw materials is not that much, labor however does cost. When you ask for quotes, ask how much to repair the A frame verses cutting (sawing) it off under the TT where it is still good, cut out the center of the header and put a new header across the entire front and a new A frame joined into the good portion of the header. The joint to the old header will have to be sound however they should be able to fish plate reinforce over the joint and make it sound. The wiring and the LP hose you have options on. Either you do that part or have them do it. Just ask them to drill the hole in the header for the LP pipe unless you have that size hole saw/drill.

They may be able to use a porta power hydraulic setup to straight what you have. This fix which ever way it goes is one that will have to be seen in person to determine which route to go.

If you frame is bent down that 1/16” it will have to had deflected more then that to spring back to the 1/16”

Bink68, Dave

Your header thickness. 13 gage is an odd ball size. It does exist in the books and heck anything is possible. If they made it out of hot rolled or cold rolled in sheet AISI spec on that thickness could be +- 0.009” Most weldments trend to use the HRS.

The actual declared gage, pending which book, gage thickness can change a hand full of thousands. In my hand book based on 41.82# per square inch gage I show using AISI or US Standard Gage,

12 gage as 0.1046”

13 gage as 0.0897”

And then there is the ** about manufacture tolerances.

Your measured 0.094 could be a low end 12 gage or a high end 13 gage.

Now to your point, how much does this thickness difference really mean? Funny you ask that as that was on my mind too. I was going to compare my 2004 design 10 gage header with small lower flange to the falling 2005 versions of small and larger lower flanges that changed along the way up to KathyH and Eman’s latest design header. This is a math exercise to figure out the moment of inertia of each shape. I will get to this in the near future and post back. And I'll run your 0.094"

For pure comparisons only, we can keep a known load across all vintage headers and just use them for comparison to give a % which is stronger by how much. The pure static vertical loading if straight forward. This will play out in the numbers but that in itself is probably not the reason for failing. When you start introducing compound loads and buckling in the equation, compounded by dynamic forces and WD that is when problems show up and is what caused this problem.

For everyone following along:


What we still do not know is, What TT tongue load and WD bar load will cause permanent frame failure the way we go camping?

This post is truly a learning experience. If I ever buy another new TT, I am armed with a lot more questions on TT frames and tongue ratings because of it. After reviewing 5 other brands TT’s, what Sunline made in 2005 on the new frame style is not that different from other TT manufactures. In fact some I would consider even worse. The push for light weight TT's may have reached the limit.

The questions I would ask are these 3:

1. What do you expect the average camper couple/family with 1,000# of camper gear and full fresh water expect the loaded tongue weight to be on this floor plan?
2. What tongue weight change occurs on this floor plan when you fill the fresh tank?
3. What is the maximum force load a WD bar can apply to the frame and stay within the frame rating for this floor plan?

After searching many brands, I have never seen a rated listing for question 3. Has anyone? Or even what max WD bars should one use? If so please post the brand and rating so I can dig further into it.

I did however ask Sunline directly on my T2499 question 1 and 2. I will paste the response here from June 8, 2005 as this is relevant as I was trying to figure out why my tongue weight was so high.

Dear John:

I have a feeling your method may be a bit off. We weigh trailers periodically throughout the model year. In the 2004 Model Year we weighed a 2499 model twice.

Both trailers were very close in weight. We weigh a base model in both the dry and wet mode. Let me explain, the dry mode is without any water, battery, or propane in the trailer. The wet mode is with a battery installed, full propane tanks and full fresh water tank(nothing in the gray or black tanks).

In the dry mode the trailer weighed 4788 lbs including a hitch weight of 680 lbs. In the wet mode the trailer weighed 5165 lbs including a hitch weight of 895 lbs.

According to our records your trailer had the following factory installed options:
4 Leveling Jacks
Mounted spare tire kit

These options only add about 120 lbs to the total weight of the trailer. I would say the hitch weight when the unit left the factory was in the range of 680 lbs.

I would try going to a scale and getting the attendant to let you weigh you truck alone and then hitch the trailer to the truck without the equalizing bars and pull just the truck onto the scale and get a weight that way.


In a follow up email I asked question no. 2. Sunline expected the average camper to have a 1,000# loaded range tongue with no fresh water on the T2499 floor plan. I have confirmed by scales and so has Sunline that adding fresh water to the T2499 floor plan adds an additional 200# of tongue weight. Sunline stated 215#. So the average camper of a 1,000# tongue weight carrying fresh water would be 1,200#. I must have more stuff then most as mine actually came out to 1,200# no water and 1,400# with. Due to my K2500 Suburban I could not carry fresh water until I rebalanced the TT. 1,200# and the camping gear in the truck was all that 3/4 ton SUV can take. The rear TV axle was at it’s limit.

Point: That floor plan weighs in at 895# wet with not one stick of camping gear in it.

At the June M & G during the tongue weight fest….(I truly enjoyed doing this and glad to again if needed) T2499 loaded tongues averaged from 900# to 1,175# by fellow Sunline Campers.

The T2499 may have the highest loaded tongue weight in the 7,000# class TT Sunline made. The problem we are facing here could end up on other models having the same frame style if and when they hit that loading that broke the 2005, T2499’s. They may have issues pending the answer to question 3 or if there loads approach the T2499 floor plan.

There is a reason I asked question 3 in this manner. Some may say that the max WD bar force is determined by the TT loaded tongue weight. There is a difference in what I asked and here is why. Tongue weight is pretty straight forward. Load up your camper, put a scale under the tongue and measure it with the TT level.

Next comes the actual TV. A WD hitch transfers weight off the rear axle of the TV based upon the actual loaded TT tongue and in the process it transfers weight in the TV that is located aft off the TV rear axle. If you camp with an empty TV aft of the rear axle, then tongue weight is all the WD hitch is working to transfer weight around. If you load gear in the truck bed or rear cargo area of a SUV,Van etc, that weight is also handled by the WD hitch. Part of that weight ends up being transferred to the TT axles thru the TT tongue. Example, 1000# tongue weight plus 300# of camping gear in the rear of the TV = 1300# as seen by the WD hitch system. 300# of camping gear in a TV is not that hard to create.

TT manufactures I assume add some value to the design to account for WD loads and TV added loading and hopefully a generous safety factor on top of it. There are very few of us that actual go camping in an empty TV. Some have more then others. Where I “think” Sunline missed was what the actual loads where for this floor plan OR they knew the loads and missed on the frame redesign? I do not know if we will ever really know.

Some folks think there WD bars broke the header, well you had 750# bars. Others, 1000# some 1,200#. All had issues. Most of us I’m sure never thought once about this before all this came to light. Now we just need to get it fixed and move on and back to camping in our great campers.

More on Tuesday to Kitty's latest posts.

John
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:15 AM   #155
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But remember we now have 2 2363s with bent frames, and they have light tongue weights. And at least one owner states that they don't load it front heavy. It seemed so obviously a tongue weight issue until the 2363s popped up.
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:02 AM   #156
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I was using US Standard Guage and your figures are for the manufacture's standard guage for sheet steel. Never-the-less, I do think, if accurate measurements are made of the failed frames, that we'll find that most of them will be on the low side of 12 guage.

I did overhear that some of the frames were made with too light a grade of steel but I don't know if that was "per specification" or by lack of quality control. It could have even been due to using the wrong guage standard in the specifications.

I tend to believe that .094 steel was not the correct steel for this application.

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Old 07-29-2008, 12:33 PM   #157
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Well, I have to wonder if there's some substance to that. I measured my header and it was 1.03 which is also on the low side for 12 gauge. That was including the paint thickness on both sides of the header!

I have a feeling that substandard materials has a part in this!

I've got a good mind to use paint stripper on the header and get an actual measurement of just the steel itself!
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:40 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety
But remember we now have 2 2363s with bent frames, and they have light tongue weights. And at least one owner states that they don't load it front heavy. It seemed so obviously a tongue weight issue until the 2363s popped up.
Pam
Pam, yes you are so right. I watch how I say the words here on tongue weight. First off, I see nothing that was done wrong by anyone to cause the failure of their header/A frame. The T2499 by floor plan has the ability to have a higher tongue weight easier. The T2363???? There is nothing yet that sticks out on that floor plan for why it would bend the frame???

To everyone following along:


Weight on the TT tongue for the way these things where made, broke the header and damaged the A frame from all I can see thru the pictures. What people following along need to know there is a problem with the frame. That is the problem. Heavier tongue weights could see the problem first, but that is not always the case.

Folks should not try to lighten up your TT tongue to below 12% of the loaded GVW of the TT to try to not have this happen. TT sway can come from doing that pending a shift in TT loading and it can be very negative pending certain conditions. Or try to lighten up on the WD hitch to try to not have this happen. That too can affect towing stability. The WD on the TV must be set correctly for the loaded TT tongue weight. Properly sized WD bars need to match the tongue weight. The TT frame needs to be built strong enough along with safety factor to allow for proper WD, a fully loaded camper and the way people normally go camping. Knowing your loaded tongue weight is a good step in towing setup and knowing you are not overloading the TV and or the camper.

To our knowledge this has not been a problem in the past prior to the 2005 redesign unless someone elses knows. Please post if you do. Sunline missed something. I’m sure it was not intentional as no one in manufacturing with a company reputation like Sunline does this intentionally. I see 1 of 2 things happened possibly.

1. The heat of competition of light weight TT’s has forced all TT builders to build lighter. When Sunline redid the 2005 frames, they went from 5” channel at 6.7# per foot to 6” light gage I beam at ??? I can’t seem to find the top and bottom flange width and web thickness but I suspect the weight per foot might be more then the 5” channel. To keep the Unloaded TT weight in the same area the A frame needed some weight taken out. So at least on the T2499’s they went from 5” channel at 6.7# /foot down to 4” channel at 5.4# /foot. The A frame is about 79” long. So the 5” A frame weighs in at 88# and the 4” A frame weighs in at 71#. Or 17# difference. Not a lot but in the age of light weight it all adds up.

So they saved some weight on the A frame, they then too lightened up the header. That one I have no rime or reason for as weight is a drop in the bucket. 12 gage header is about 19# and 10 gage header is about 24#’s. The 2005 header shape is like most other Sunlines of recent years so they stayed with that configuration. However by going from 5” to 4” channel and reduced header thickness too, all the extra safety factors are taken out of the pre 2005 configuration and now that same floor plan has issues with the new frame design.

2. The actual loads of WD and how people camp where missed or there was a miss in how the forces where applied. We do not know what loading was ever used in the design phase. Heck we do not even know what the frames we have now or the repaired ones are rated at for WD loading. When a design is over built it covers a lot of unknowns that are hard to nail down as the combinations are many. So you add a higher safety factor.

As to the header thickness, I will this weekend when I get home try to get to running the numbers on certain measured header thickness's and profiles that we have discussed all the way from 2004 to the latest 2007 final fix. It will only be the percent of strength in simple static vertical loading giving all configurations used against the same load. However this should give a feel for what the difference in 10 gage to very light 12 gage or less would affect. I suspect, but it will be proven by the numbers, that the thickness will not play a large a role as we think from 10 gage to 12 or 13 gage from a straight down loading point of view. A wider, taller shape gives more bang for the buck so to say for strength then thickness in the vertical loading.

However the buckling perspective it may have more bearing on the situation. There a wide lower flange will help more then thickness but thicken plays a role.


Bink68


On the US Standard Gage, I believe that refers to wire gage verses sheet metal gage. There are little differences in the tables and then when you get to Stainless steel, even in sheet metal, they have a slight shift yet again. When buying for work, I just use the mills hand book who is selling it as that is what they are shipping in. At this point you have a hard number of thickness regardless of gage and I will use that number, what ever it is.

Kitty

You have done good on the measuring and pic taking. It does look like you have 1/16” bow in the frame. It could be bent and or half of that is actually from manufacturing.

To your welder friend, if he is into building trailers for Bob Cat’s, Backhoe’s, dozers etc, well I’m sure the comments fit from his perspective. I’m sure he would drop a 1/4” formed plate or 6" channel across the front if he was starting from scratch. And he would not pick 4” channel. They are use to heavy loads at the front and point loads of tires.

TT’s have fallen into the same light weight design as the Auto guys. When was the last time you saw a 1/4” thick frame PU truck frame? It was only until Ford came out with the Super Duty did they up it to 7mm. (0.276”) frame rail. The GM 2500 HD’s are 3/16” and they are heavier then the 2500 Suburban at 1/8”. As manufactures evolve from heavy with lots of beef and safety factor to light weight, unless they know exactly where all the forces can come from and how people use them, they can miss when they cut it close to the edge.

Which brings back this same fundamental question, what actual tongue weight loading when using a WD hitch and how much weight can be in the back of the TV aft of the rear axle are these frames, or the repairs to the frames, made to handle?

John
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Old 08-06-2008, 06:02 PM   #159
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After discussing the issue with my dealer's serviceman, we agreed that Lipert will probably not warranty any of this problem, and with Sunline out of business, we are SOL. So I went to my mechanic who also does extensive bodywork and welding. After showing him the photos on the site, he said he can rebuild the forward end of the trailer.

After looking at the frame, he said that the header was flimsy and he wanted to reenforce the whole header. After straightening the slight bow that I had( 3/4 " to the rear), he welded in 2x4" box steel on the rear side of the header,connecting the header to the main and A frame. He then welded a piece of 3/4"x2 solid steel from both main frames, across the A frame, following the bottom of the header, covering the weld points where it appears the header was "beaten upward with a hammer to make the weld joint" making it solid all the way across. To combat the twisting of the A frame, he removed the angle brackets that hold the battery in place and doubled the size of the steel as a replacement. Quite costly ($600.00) but this was a custom job that was fabricated every inch of the way. Seven hours labor plus materials. We love our Sunline that much to invest this improvement into it. We plan on keeping it for a long time.

Hopefully we can post photos on Saturday, the next time DW has off.

Bobo
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:42 PM   #160
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Bobo, thanks for the update. I am hoping my "fixer" will be able to start on Sunny next week. It is county fair week this week, so I've got my fingers crossed.

Along with the "words" that my fixer muttered when he was looking under Sunny, he also stated that the battery brackets were rediculious, and they will also be replaced. As soon as Sonny goes for repairs, I'll post that he is being fixed, and once I get him back I'll post pics. I will try to get inprogress pics if at all possible.

I've been quoted around $700 for the fix (getting materials at cost, friend of sons), the 3" lift and the skid wheels.

I am really ready to have Sunny fixed.

Kitty
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