Towing too Much?

[Andreasprinc]

Hello, I've got a 1998 F-150 with a 4.6l Triton Engine. I am going to be pulling a 2003 Sunline Solaris Lite, model T2370. My question is does anybody know for sure if it will be okay? According to my manuals I can tow 6000lbs and the trailer weighs 5500lbs. I do have the load bars. Just want some opinions from people who may know. Thanks alot for any help.
Paul

[JohnB]

Hi Paul

1st off welcome to Sunline Owners Club. Glad you found us and glad to have you with us. Congrats on your coach, a nice unit.

Now to your coach and truck. I looked up your 2003, T2370. It has an empty catalog dry weight of 3,955# and a dry tongue weight of 570#. Dry weight means no battery and no LP gas in the tanks and without added options. Basically an empty camper almost the weight it left Sunline when new. In a cabinet in the camper it will list a shipped weight.

You are correct it has the ability to hold up to 5,500# total gross weight once loaded with camping gear. That 5,500# we call Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. With out hauling fresh water you could be at 5,000# loaded ready to go camping if your an average camper like the rest of us.

Now to your truck. As a fellow camper friend your truck may be at it's limits as far as pulling and maybe on weights pending how you camp and the truck ratings. Your close enough we have to figure this out. We need a little more info to see how this lines up or not. We can help you see this so you can make a better educated decision. I can't tell from the limited info we know about your truck.

Tell us these kind of things.

• Look at the driver side door panel and tell us the axle ratings and the truck GVWR. I can see if I can find a curb weight and axle weights on the truck.

• Also need to know the cab configuration. Is it a standard cab 8 foot bed or a extended/crew cab short bed?

• Does it have 4 wheel drive?

• Do you know your rear axle ratio?

• And in your owners manual is should list a GCWR, Gross Combined Weight Rating for your engine and rear axle ratio and cab configuration. What is the GCWR?

• In the truck when you go camping, approx how many pounds of people and must have camping gear will be in the truck?

• And by any chance would you have a weight slip from weighing the truck? And front and rear axle?

We can show you how the math comes up and the areas of concern or not. What little we know you could be just inside your limits or just outside a few.

A TT pulls different then a open utility trailer or even a enclosed small cargo trailer. The front of the camper creates a lot of wind resistance and that eats up pulling power when you start to get over 45 mph. Now for towing a TT, you do not need to go real fast, 55 can be enough but you will feel the wind drag on your engine and more so in hilly areas.

See this post which helps explain this some more in detail.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...ing-10775.html

Give us some of the info and we can walk you thru how to figure this out.

Hope this helps

John

[Andreasprinc]

Thanks for the help and I'll give you some of the extra info you need.

It is a 4x2 extended cab with a 6 foot bed.
The front gawr is 3100lbs, the rear is 3200lbs. The GVWR of the truck is 6000lbs.
No 4 wheel drive.
No I don't know the rear axel ratio and not sure how to find out.
When I bought the truck in '98 I told the dealer that i was pulling an 18 foot TT and that i need the power. I never had a problem pulling the 18 footer but that was 10 years and 150,000 miles ago. I did have an electric brake installed.
I do have a paper that came with the truck stating "your pickup is not recommended for carrying slide-in campers. GVWR 6000
GCWR 10000lbs w/ a 3.08 rear or 11500lbs w/ a 3.55 rear out of the manual.
I do not have a weight slip.

I hope this info helps and anybody know how I can find out my rear axle gear ratio.

Thanks alot again for all your help.

[JohnB]

Hi Paul

Your axle code on your door sticker tell you the rear axle ratio. You jsut need the Ford Magic decoder.....

See here my sticker. On the bottom row it lists the axle code. On mine it is 4N and that is 4.10 limited slip after I decoded it.


Here is an explantion
Ford Door Sticker Decoder .: Articles

Here is one chart of codes
Rear Axle Ratio Codes - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

An here is another one
Ford Axle Code Chart .: Articles

If you cannot find your year in the plie of codes tell us what it is and we can hunt too.

One other question. How many pounds of people and must have camping gear will be in the truck when you tow the Camper?

Be back later

John

[Andreasprinc]

Hello again, I work late so just getting home. The code for my axel is 19 and as far as I can figure from the awesome links you sent, it is a 3.55 non-LS. GREAT info.

As far as the load, people is 500lbs. A couple bikes, cooler full of ice and bee....soda I mean (ha). So maybe another 500lbs. Hope this helps and thanks alot for ALL your help.

[JohnB]

Paul

Forgot to ask, do you have an automatic transmission?

[Andreasprinc]

Yes, auto trannie.

[JohnB]

Paul

1st off your welcome. Thanks for the thanks. We try the best we can here on SOC to help a fellow Sunliner or any camper for that matter. All you need to do is ask.

Here is what I came up with so far.

Here is your truck manual on line. A 98 F150. http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/content/~WOWF12/~MUS~LEN/36/98f12og1e.pdf

Page 115 lists the GCWR’s for your truck. Tell me if I have this wrong or not.

You have a 98, 4.6 engine, F150, 2 wheel drive, “super cab”, automatic transmission and a 3.55 rear axle. If so that has a GCWR of 11,500#. And a max trailer weight of 6,600# and a frontal area of 60 sq feet.



This is the 1st time I seen the frontal area listed in the owners manual. It usually shows up on the Towing guide. Learn something new all the time…. Also I am assuming you are still running the stock tire size that came with the truck. If you changed tire sizes that affect the pull ratings. Let us know what you changed from and to if you changed tire sizes in outside diameter?

Now back in 98 I do not know what Super cab is verses extended cab. They “may” be the same thing as I do not see any extended cab specs listed. If I have this wrong let me know.

You told us these truck weight ratings.
“The front gawr is 3100lbs, the rear is 3200lbs. The GVWR of the truck is 6000lbs”

The payload you feel may be in the truck when you go camping.
“As far as the load, people is 500lbs. A couple bikes, cooler full of ice and bee....soda I mean (ha). So maybe another 500lbs.” So that is 1,000# of cargo to the truck. We may have to revisit this area. People have to go in the truck. Other cargo well, it may have a choice.

Now a curb weight on your truck. If you really want to know this answer, find a truck stop with a scale. Pay about $8 bucks and get it weighed. Full gas and your co-pilot or just yourself. But leave all the other gear out for now. Need front and rear axle weight.

Tonight I’m coming up dry on finding a 98 F150 Super Cab, short bed 2 wheel drive curb weigth and curb weight axle weights. Or the payload to back into the weights.

This much I know trying to back into this: with a GCWR of 11,500 – 6,600 max trailer = 4,900# which could be "close" to your curb weight. But then there are options for trim package. With a 6,000# GVWR if the 4,900# curb weight is right then that is only 1,100# of payload and that sounds like not much but it may be. Remember you have 1,000# of people, bikes and soda….

In order to start doing a towing health check we need to find an actual or and close estimate from some kind of reliable source on the truck weight by itself (GVW) and the front and rear axle weight split for that truck weight.

I’ll dig some more on Wednesday. If you can come up with anything please post.

Oh what trim do you have while I’m asking? XL, XLT, Larriat? They all add weight.

John

[Andreasprinc]

WOW.....great work. I have an XLT and I did change the tire size to LT265 75R 16, from the stock size.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Andreasprinc

WOW.....great work. I have an XLT and I did change the tire size to LT265 75R 16, from the stock size.

What was the original stock size? It may be on the driver side door sticker.

Changing tire diameters pending how big a change can change the final gear ratio. Assuming you went bigger OD tire that sort of makes the 3.55 rear axle ratio effectivley something smaller in pulling power. It takes more power to turn larger wheels. Find me the original stock size and I'll see if I can find the formulas to figure out what this means to your ability to pull. Maybe something to be noted, maybe not.

While pulling is one issue, I 1st look to make sure the truck can hold the camper stable while towing. No axles over weight ratings and GVWR limits. Then the tug of war comes next. Still need to figure out what the truck weighs. have not had time to look more. Will dig some more tonight

Thanks

John

[frodothree]

Hi Paul and welcome to the Sunline family. John is doing the calculation in the better manner so stay with his advice. I can contribute some "been there - done that" advice on towing power of a 4.9 V6 engine.

I have a 1985 2263 Sunline TT that I bought in Mass and towed to NC with a 1993 Chevy Blazer with a 4.9cu engine, auto tranny and 4 wheel drive. The route was rather level except for a streach through central Connecticut which is quiet hilly.
The Blazer was very stable as a tow vehicle pulling the 2263 (which is likely similar weight and frontal area to your TT). The engine power is another issue, fine on level and near level roads with light winds, but woefully underpowered on the hills and in strong winds. Frequently downshifting one gear in headwinds and two gears on longer hills of much elevation.

Driving was comfortable since the TT trailed beautifully, good electric brakes, new tires and repacked wheel bearings always help, but gas milage was a pisser! 20/22 mpg without trailer and maybe 10 towing. I would upgrade the tow vehicle for more power if you plan spending any time in the hills.

Clark

[JohnB]

Hi Paul

This one has been tuff finding what I needed. This is the best I can come up with short of you taking your truck to the scales and getting actual weights. In the Ford line up ideally we have the Ford Source Book for the year truck you have. The pre 2002 source books where just not setup like the 2002 and forward. So I had to use a 2002 and a 2003 to get these “estimates”. Again your trucks may be +- 150# or maybe more but you can see how I have done this and then when you get your scaled weight just change the numbers.

See here, page 28 in the 2002 Source book. https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...002/f150cd.pdf

And here on page 27 in the 2003 Source book https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...f150_03abb.pdf

Ford gives you the curb weights split by axle. Now in 2002 and 2003 the GVWR of the F150, Super cab, 4.6L, 4 x 2, Style side was 6,050# Yours 1998 is 6,000# so these loads are “close”. I also looked up the axle ratings between your 98 and the 2003 and they still offered the same springs options in 2003 so again, I would say these weights are “close”

A 2002 has a front axle weight of 2,457#, a rear axle weight of 1,853# totaling 4,310# GVW empty but with full gas.

A 2003 has a front axle weight of 2,481#, a rear axle weight of 1,871# totaling 4,352# GVW empty but with full gas.

As you can see not a lot of difference in the 2 years as I think 1998 was a design year so things should be close until the next design year. These weights do not include every option you may have, the source book tells what # they all are if you want to add/subtract from the base curbs weights. See page 24 in the 2002 book if you want to.

OK so for this time we will pick the 2002 weights. 2,457#, a rear axle weight of 1,853# totaling 4,310# GVW empty but with full gas.

With a empty truck GVW of 4,310# pounds and a 6,000 GVWR that leaves 1,690# of payload left. Now you said 500# of people and must haves. Since they ride in the truck you do not have any choice, they have to stay…. LOL so 1,690 – 500 = 1,190# left before you reach GVWR. The 500# of stuff, bikes, bee…soda and other things lets leave out for right now. You may have to put some in the camper and some in the truck bed.

For axle weights I’m going to add 300# to the front and 200# to the rear for the people and must haves. I'm basing that on your wheel base/cab style

Front: 2,457 +300 = 2,757# against a FRT GAWR of 3,100

Rear: 1,853 + 200 = 2,053# against a RR GAWR of 3,200

Truck GVW: 2,757# + 2,053# = 4,810 # before you hook up the TT.

Now to the camper: A 2003 T2370: The dry weight was 3,955# with a 570# dry tongue. That is 14.3% dry tongue weight. Looking over that floor plan and how you “might” load it, I’m making a few assumptions here, you add 1,000# of camping stuff. Now I know that sounds like a lot, but it really is not. That means battery, LP gas in the tanks, food, clothes, pots/pans, camp chairs, etc. If your are like the majority of us that 1,000# is the average.

The new loaded camper weight is then 3,955 + 1,000 = 4,995# lets call it 5,000#

The loaded tongue with that floor plan can rise estimated to 800# And that is 16% loaded tongue weight. The TT should tow stable.

Loaded/hitched truck

So now lets look at the truck when we hook the camper up with a properly adjust WD hitch.

The TV front axle will stay the same when WD is adjusted right. 2,757# FA weight

The TV rear axle is going to take the blunt of the TT loaded tongue weight, While some will transfer to the camper axles with WD, for quick estimating we will say the rear axle will take it all. And when WD is adjusted right it will be close to the loaded tongue weight. 2,053# + 800# = 2,853# loaded rear axle against a RR GAWR of 3,200#. Still have some room here before reaching the limits.

Truck GVW against the GVWR. 2,757# FA + 2,853# RA = 5,606# GVW against a 6,000# GVWR. So there is 394# of cargo space left. The bikes might fit! YEH But you can see how close you are to the GVWR.

Now for pulling we look at the GCWR. Yours was 11,500# GCWR.

Truck GVW with people: 4,810 # + 5,000# loaded TT = 9,810 # GCW.

11,500# GCWR against 9,810# GCW = 1,690# reserve which is not all bad.

So looking at this, AGAIN, from estimated truck empty weights you fit. Your closest area is the GVW on the truck almost toping out at the GVWR. Need to watch the weight in the truck. If you load up the bed with a bunch of fire wood, cooler and bikes you could be over the GVWR rating.

As far as pulling take it easy and for sure get the WD adjusted correct and you need anti sway controls. 55 to 60 mph is fast enough. Can help on the WD setup too if you need. You will notice the down shift on hills. You will tell if this is a long term setup or not per your camping places/distances. I do not know what state you are in. There are some heavy duty non stop mountains in western PA and WV. Where are you?

Some pointers and heads up:

Air up your rear truck tires to max cold side wall pressure for towing. The stiffer tire will help keep the truck stable. On the front go at least for door sticker pressure. You may find you need to tweak that up close to max cold side wall too if you get a shifting truck from the camper.

Crawl under your truck and inspect the receiver hitch. If it is rusted heavy clean up the rust and paint. Inspect to make sure you have no cracks or heavy correction in a weld. If you do, upgrade the receiver. After market ones are not that expensive. You need good sound rated hitch equipment. The WD bars on your WD hitch need to be rated at or above your loaded tongue weight.

Verify on the receiver the Weight disturbing ratings. It must be at or above the loaded tongue weight. The receiver needs to be rated for a WD hitch.

An auxiliary transmission cooler. I'm assuming you have one. If not add one. Not that expensize either but can save the day on towing this close to your limits

When you get all loaded up, take trailer and all and head to a truck scale and make sure all is in order. We can talk then how to weigh the truck and make sure the WD hitch is all set correct when you get to that point. There is a method to weighing in sequence to get all the right weights.

Hopefully you can follow how I came to all this. If not, ask away I tried to lay it all out for you to see. It is all estimate based, again starting with the truck empty weight, full gas and the passengers inside. You should stop and get it weighed and compare here if you want to know for sure.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Please post back how you make out, good or bad. A lot of folks are following your thread and we all learn from each other.

Happy camping

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Andreasprinc

WOW.....great work. I have an XLT and I did change the tire size to LT265 75R 16, from the stock size.

I "think" you had P235/70R16's or P225/70R16's. Did you?

Page 21 shows the rev difference between tire sizes
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...002/f150cd.pdf

Depending what you had you may not have changed the OD enough to be a problem.

John

[pwb01]

With all the calculations aside, I've heard many times that a good formula is to tow no more than 75% of your trucks capacity to be comfortable with it.

I've seen this first hand when I pulled 4800# with a capacity of 5500#. Eventhough the manufacturer says that it won't hurt the truck I had a hard time keeping up to the speed limit especially on hills and spent a lot of time at a lower gear at 4000rpm. Because of that I got 8 or 9 mpg with a truck that got 19mpg empty.

Now I pull 4800# with a capacity of 7500 and don't even know it's there. The tongue wt (I think 450) on my F150 doesn't drop the bumper a half inch.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by pwb01

With all the calculations aside, I've heard many times that a good formula is to tow no more than 75% of your trucks capacity to be comfortable with it.

Paul, the 75% and 80% rule is a good guide for towing a TT if one is not into all the numbers. But even then need to watch the tongue weights and truck cargo. And your right, your own experiences have shown that rule is good. Mine as well.

However that rule now a days is getting very skewed for a TT. A 2011 F150 with the new 3.5L Eco boost V6 no less can be geared to have a 17,000 GCWR... or an 11,300# trailer. In a Crew cab no less.... That is a 1,000# more weight pulling rating then my older 2003 K2500 Suburban 6.0 with the 4.10 rear axle... It was only 16,000# GCWR

While these new trucks are packed with power (even if they are screaming to get it) hooking a 10,000# camper to a 1/2 ton truck is not a wise thing to do. There is a point where if you really need 11,300# of pulling, get a truck with the suspension to do it right

The 80% rule on a 11,300# tow rating is 9,040# and the 75% rule is 8,475#. That in my book is still too much TT for a 1/2 ton suspension vehicle. Pulling a TT and controlling one need different solutions. Hopefully they will start rating trucks for a TT like they do a 5th wheel. A high profile TT is a lot different then a low flat deck open trailer.

Thanks

John