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Old 01-08-2012, 08:08 PM   #21
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Hi Richard,

Made it back from camping. The weather was perfect for a winter campout.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit over the weekend. I may have not totally explained my statements well enough about what happens with a conventional WD hitch and then on the Anderson. Your reply made me think harder on this.

If you look in this pic of a Reese DC, in a turn when the TV is on ground that is on an angle to the ground the TT is on, the hitch head tilts left to right at the same angle the truck tires are planted on the ground. When it does this tilting action then the inside WD bar unloads and the outside WD bar load increasse and is now is taking all the load. The forces doubled on that outside bar and the force goes to "0" on the inside bar. If the ground surface is dead level, then this does not occur. Just I have never towed where all road surfaces are straight and level....


Now on the Anderson, when you turn the tow ball plate is under great resistance from rotating since the tow ball is rotating in hi friction brake pad material. And when the tow ball "starts" to rotate in the shank socket, you are correct the inside chain gets a little looser and the outside chain gets a little tighter, that is until both sides come back to equilibrium as the tow ball and chain plate rotates slightly to even out the pressure even in a turn if the turn stays at a constant arc. Now the turn cannot stay turned all the time as the TV goes back straight. The chain forces change once again until the tow ball chain plate shifts and the chains once again go to equilibrium in force. After thinking through this I have convinced myself that the WD on the TV has not changed in a turn.

My initial thoughts had questions on can this type of hitch be able to do WD well on the TV? I re-watched the video when the Anderson guy was talking. He stated 2,000# of chain tension in “each” chain creating 4,000# of pull on the bottom of the tow ball. After looking at enough pics and sizes I’m estimating the tow ball is 8” long. Well 4,000# x a 8” lever is 32,000 in. lb. of torque put into the hitch shank then into the receiver to create WD on the TV. Or 2,667 ft. lb. of torque. There are a few things missing from the video that I cannot even speculate on. He stated 4,000# of chain force but he never stated what loaded tongue weight that lines up with, the TV rear overhang, the tow ball to TT axle distance or the TV wheelbase.

Trying to compare this to something… to get a feel what that Anderson torque compares to, I picked my truck and my camper but with only a 1,000# tongue load, no added bed weight and 1,000# WD bars. Using WD bars 28.5” long and creating WD on the truck like I believe it should be, I get about 800# of spring load/bar force each at the chains into a 28.5” long WD bar creating 45,600 in. lb. or 3,800 ft lb of torque into the TV receiver. If I did that right then on the Anderson I would need to crank up the chain load into the tow ball to 5,700# total on this same truck and TT to get WD correct.

The 28.5” WD bar compared to the 8” long tow ball is the difference in the mechanical advantage of the 2 hitches. The Anderson will always have to use higher chain force to get the same WD. Is that a bad thing? Maybe/maybe not. But it for sure tells me I do not want to rely on set screws to hold the urethane spring bumpers from sliding. This can be solved by drilling and bolting the frame brackets right to the frame. But, read on about this through bolt.

They stated that the ball has a taper of 1/4" over 4”. That is a 1.8 deg angle so it more relates to a self-holding taper like a Morse locking taper on a larger drill bit. What this means is that taper and brake material can create a lot of grip. Both the TT tongue weight and the WD torque creates high friction. This holding power I see way above the standard friction sway bar. Just due to the higher application force then what you can crank a normal friction sway bar too. If you crank a normal friction sway bar dead tight you end up bending the bar in a turn as the bar will not slide back and forth very well. The Anderson found a way around this problem.

The lower triangle chain plate looks to be about 1/4” thick. Maybe 3/16”. If they had way too much friction they may end up twisting that plate if the urethane spring bracket did not twist off first. Seeing the metal is thinner in those areas I’m “guessing” they have not over done it. Real high performance brake pads can have a coefficient of friction against cast iron rotors of maybe 0.5 to 0.6 where normal brake pads are 0.2 to 0.4. The higher the number the more the friction. Anderson using steel in place of cast iron will be a little different. As a point of reference the Reese or the Equal-I-zer use steel on steel that dry had a coefficient of friction of 0.74. Now which one has more holding power against sway? Need to do more math to sort that one out as the Anderson has higher forces on the brake pad just a lower coef. of friction. The Reese/Equal-I-zer has less force just higher coef. of friction.

Turning radius, I wonder how much the Anderson can turn before it tries to tear off the urethane spring bracket? The Reese can turn 74 degrees left and 65 degrees right before issues come with the WD bars on.
Here is 74 left





The chain plate on the bottom of the Anderson looks like 10 to 12” wide between the chains. So that is an arc of 5 to 6” it is pulling the chain.

EDIT: You can only turn so far before the drop shank will hit the chain plate. This might be pretty far but something to check out. A good question to ask, How far can it turn in degrees left and right? I also wonder if that is why they have a set screw in place of a through bolt in the urethane spring bracket. It is an overload and will slip if you turn too far? Maybe/maybe not. But that just meant you lost WD if it slips as an overload. And if so, not a good feature. Need to understand the limits of the hitch is a turn as you can come real close to jack knife back into a campsite or into a strogarge spot. Key is know the hitch limits.

If you are comparing this to the Reese DC there are differences in aspects of performance.
  • The Reese DC increases friction by the WD bar rising up the cam and increasing the WD load. This increases the friction holding power due to the WD load going up when the TT shifts from resisting sway. When the WD bar starts to move the higher static friction changes to sliding friction and is less holding power this is one of those laws of physics and cannot be overcome. However the WD bar load goes up to help compensate for this fact.
  • The total Anderson chain load remains the same when the TT shifts from sway resistance. One chain may tighten and one loosen but you do not get more force to the friction. And once the friction hold unlocks the static friction hold the sliding friction come into effect and has less holding power from the sliding friction effect with no compensation like the Reese. The WD bar load increase is one of Reese’s claims to fame.
  • The Reese helps bring the TT back in line once sway force stops from the pressue of the V in the WD bar to the cam helping to allow it back to go back center. The Anderson does not help return the TT, it needs the truck to do this as it travels further forward to return the TT back in line.
  • The Anderson is more like the Equal-I-zer from what I can tell. A high friction WD hitch. If it is as effective as the Equal-I-zer then it is a good tool to use.
Since Reese, Equal-I-zer nor Anderson create a rating of anti sway strength or will guarantee their hitch will eliminate sway with your setup (TT and TV), the buyer is left to sort this out themselves. For sure none of these high friction hitches will solve a TT balance problem, soggy truck tires or soft truck suspension for the loads it needs to carry. The Anderson if it’s performance as good as the Reese or Equal-I-zer then we can put this in the hitch tool box kit of good hitches to apply to certain TV and TT combos. They all have pro’s and con’s and none of them work in every application.

In my case I have over 40,000 miles on my original Reese DC cams and I can still get another 40 to 60K more on them before I need to flip them over and start out. It is a long lasting hitch if properly maintainded. I deal with the greasy tow ball and flip up the snap ups almost totally by hand when I jack up the truck. And I worked through how to set the hitch up to not bind in turns. To some dealing with the snap up pipe and grease may be a problem. To me, it is not for the performance the hitch provides me. If the Anderson has better WD and better anti sway control, then I would consider it over the Reese.

I would like to see one and adjust one before I can comment on if I would recommend one to a fellow camper. With what little we have to go on, there are too many unanswered questions. It is just different at this point. A 1,500# Reese Straight line is $700. The Anderson 1,400# is $500. Yes I know the cost is higher however for $200 difference I would not sacrifice any less performance then the Reese DC.

A few questions, what year/model Jayco do you have and what truck will you end up getting? The TV and TT balance has a lot to do with stable towing before we put the hitch in the equation. We can look up your Jayco and the TV and see if all that fits.

Hope all this helps you sort this out.

John

Edited the turning action limits section after thinking more about this. Also added extra wordind to descriobe static and sliding friction 1-9-12
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #22
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Hi John,

Thank-you very much for analyzing this hitch for me. I'm still going thru what you've written and really appreciate the work you put into this. I've just received another reply from the company which included a 13 page Manuel and specific answers to questions I've asked. The Manuel came in a PDF and I haven't been successful in copying it over to here. If your able to send me an email address I'll forward the letter and manuel. Otherwise the company is very fast in replying to inquiries if some of you would rather go that route.

I explained earlier when you asked me how I found you guys. I replied that it was thru a google search.which it was. Today I sent a link to another Jayco Owners member, Bob(rustic eagle) about our discussion here, he replied back that you guys know eachother and have shared a campfire together. He lives in Mi and your in Ohio, and I am about 3800 km from either of you. What are the chances of that of that happening.

I will get back to you in a day or two when I have more time

Richard murphie
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphie View Post
Hi John,

Thank-you very much for analyzing this hitch for me. I'm still going thru what you've written and really appreciate the work you put into this. I've just received another reply from the company which included a 13 page Manuel and specific answers to questions I've asked. The Manuel came in a PDF and I haven't been successful in copying it over to here. If your able to send me an email address I'll forward the letter and manuel. Otherwise the company is very fast in replying to inquiries if some of you would rather go that route.

I explained earlier when you asked me how I found you guys. I replied that it was thru a google search.which it was. Today I sent a link to another Jayco Owners member, Bob(rustic eagle) about our discussion here, he replied back that you guys know each other and have shared a campfire together. He lives in Mi and your in Ohio, and I am about 3800 km from either of you. What are the chances of that of that happening.

I will get back to you in a day or two when I have more time

Richard murphie
Richard,

Thanks. As if you have not already realized.... I enjoy this techy stuff... It is a pleasure to help and learn about new towing products all at the same time.

I will PM you my email. I really want to see that manual.... and we can get it up here on the site too.

A bud who knows me in MI and he has a Jayco Eagle named Bob..... It is a small work isn't it. Yes, I know Bob very well. He is a good egg and we do go camping togehter and talk hitches often... and you are 3800 km from us... Well come on down! OK you might have to make a camping trip of it.... but if you get in the area your welcome to stop in and we can have a hitch fest out in the yard..... Serious though, would be glad to help you set up your hitch of what ever brand.

Thanks

John
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:20 AM   #24
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I have really enjoyed this thread and looking at the Anderson web page. It’s neat seeing something new. Jon had mentioned about the rubber bushings and possibilities of cracking failures. The web site said the bushings were made of urethane. Not being an engineer but I can tell you when I was a young graduate (about a hundred years ago) working in the cost department of a manufacturer of mining and quarry equipment. We sold shaker screens that would size stone aggregates in many levels that would separate the stone to the proper belts. It was amazing how fast the screens would need replacing due to the “stone” blasting. We started to coat these screens with urethane. Even though there were a lot of issues with coating, it was incredible to see how resilient urethane was. My guess is better urethane than rubber compound.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:46 PM   #25
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For those folks following along here, we now have an Anderson WD hitch install manual.

See here in the files section.

Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Anderson WD Hitch Install Manual

Thanks to Richard for getting us this.

John
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:18 AM   #26
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From the manual:
"STEP 9: UNHOOKING TRAILER FROM TOW VEHICLE

1. Once you are parked, chock the tires of your trailer and remove the safety chains.
2. Use your trailer's support leg or lift to take a little of the weight off the trailer coupler.
3. Using the 1-1/4" Ratchet Wrench, loosen both Tension Nuts about 11 rotations.
4. Remove the pin and clip attached to the bottom of the 2-5/16" Ball.
5. Remove the Tension plate (leaving the chains and shackles attached)
6. Either remove the adjustable shank and Sway Control Housing or, attach the separate collar with pin & clip (part #5 on
page 3) and leave the adjustable shank and Sway Control Housing in place (allowing you to use the 2-5/16" ball to tow
another trailer)."


What happened to the claim of simple use?

Since unhooking this hitch requires we "loosen both Tension Nuts about 11 rotations", or until the chains become slack, that means we will also have to re-tighten those Tension Nuts with every hookup. Hopefully the resetting of the Tension Nut will be correct. Maybe that will not be so much to do if we get use to it but the simple to use sales pitch has now become more complicated.

I think the simple, return to the original settings, use of the chain hooks is simpler and easier and if timed it might even be faster. It is for sure, in my mind, a more constant setup than having to remember and count turns of a nut with each use.

Not convinced yet.

Edited to add:
After unhooking and driving around for days we are then to align the TV and the TT as close to the position that we unhooked from. This seems to me to be because of that little pin we have to stick in the hole. Nothing to aligning that pin and hole I'm sure. Now we have the proper chain adjustment to worry about right after we worry about sticking that pin in the hole that may or may not be a simple, almost blindfolded, action as the sales pitch hints.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:30 PM   #27
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Hi Jim,

Yes reading the instructions helped. They also talked about drilling holes in the frame for the set screws to drop into. I knew they would have an issue with all that pressure pulling on only a friction clamp. They even use 5/8 bolts in the bracket clamps. Need to be carefull you do not crush some thin tube A frames.

The unhitching and needing to be straight, using what the Anderson guy said in the video about 4,000# of pull in each chain let me think out load about that.

When the TV turns say 40 degrees in relation to the TV, the hitch shank moves with the TV and the tow ball stays with the TT held by the left and right chain connected to the chain plate. The outside turn chain will increase in force until the tow ball slips in the shank friction socket. The inside chain will reduce a little force. You now have a tug of war between the 2 chains. It takes a qty of force to match the tow ball slip in the friction material on the shank. Once it slips the 2 chains come closer back to be equally loaded.

The pin that holds the chain plate to the tow ball is the "key" so to speak that drives the chain plate. It will be under great pressure when the 2 chains are at different forces.

Now to unhitching:

The complexity of unhitching may differ between a heavy tongue TT and a light one. Lets say a 700# TT tongue. If you put a 6" wood block under the jack and lift it to max height, it "might" unload the chain pressure or a majority of it. This means less unscrewing.

Those with a 1,000 to 1,200#tongue weight, they may not be able to unload a lot of the pressure which means more unscrewing.

They state that if you are backed it at an angle to unhook the WD first. That is a concern to me. The truck receiver is then under full dead weight and backing up a slight grade and turning the camper in is not something I would want to do a standard truck receiver as most are not rated high enough in weight carrying mode. They must know it is hard to undo the chain tension if the truck is at an angle or they would not of stated this.

Those who use a Hensley hitch have crank screw adjustments on the WD bars. Many RV'ers use a cordless drill on them. The cordless drill "might" be an option on the Anderson. It may have to be a heavy drill on the heavier tongue weights.

So we may be able to help the screwing problem with the cordless drill and use the ratchet wrench for the last few turns to be exact on spring preload. As far as tightening, a simple depth gage of sorts can be made to measure the end of the chain stud to the nut.

H'mm OK lets look at the chain tension screw closer. They say it is a 1 1/4" nut. That might be a heavy nut on a 3/4" bolt for the chain tension take up. Using the 4,000# chain tension number it takes 50 ft. lb. of torque on dry threads in a 3/4" bolt to create 4,000# of force. Well it better be a gutsy cordless drill. Again what ever tongue weight lines up with the 4,000#

If one is use to using snap up brackets, well you can't get much faster/simpler then a snap up bracket. And if you jack up the TT enough they flip up by hand. Even the hitches with L brackets can go on and off quick and easy if you jack up the TT enough.

The Anderson does however absorb bounce in the hitch potentially better.

I would really like to have one to play with and set it up on a TV and TT to get a better feel for the WD part of this. Curious as can be. WD is the thing that makes me have the most concerns. This may be a good option on lighter weight TT's however I have my doubts on a heavy tongue camper in the 1,000# and up. And I myself would not use it on a 1,400# tongue until I for sure saw how it works up close and can see the WD work correctly.

John
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan View Post

- I like how the chains rotate with the trailer turning. This means no bar binding, no excess pressure on one particular side of the frame rail, etc. Richard, this would be the perfect system for the Sunline T-2499, which has suffered from frame/tongue issues, particularly because one side gets overloaded from a spring bar in a tight turn
Hi Jon,

After thinking through the forces involved with the potential of 4,000 to 5,000# of chain pulling force on each side of the A-Frame, the Anderson may still have issues with the T2499 problems of the 2005 redesigned frames.

I agree the point load of a snap up bracket pulling from the top of the frame into the side of the A frame in a turn is high. However the amount of force at the chains in a conventional WD hitch compared to the Anderson is a lot less due to the spring bar length. Bink68 was only using 750# WD bars when he stressed his T2499 frame. His tongue weight may have been 1,000# or more and in a turn that 1,000# is pulling hard all on one side.

On the Anderson if there is 4,000# pulling on the bottom of the frame on both sides, that may be worse. The A frame may try and buckle inward as opposed to outward like on the conventional WD hitch. Either twist of that kind of magnitude may create issues. Think of a hard bounce going down the road with the impact load of 2, 4,000# chains pulling on the bottom of the A frame trying to twist it inward. The chain loads may hit 6,000# instantaneous from a hard bump. May have only shifted the problem to another source.

The high tongue weights of the T2499 and the 4" channel with the header setup that existed just was not a good combo. If you stop the channel flexing or control what it was doing in the header, then the issue did not go out of control.

I wonder if Anderson thought of a 2" tow ball set up as well. Many PU campers can use the benefit of light WD and anti-sway. The conventional WD setups struggle here getting them mounted. And on the TT front, this setup "might" work well on the lighter weight TT's. The hitch has some merits, I just question it on the heavier tongue weight campers as a long term situation. Like Jim said, I have high confidence my Reese will last a life time and I have no fears of it now doing WD correctly.

But I'm open minded and would like to play with one. Curious.

John
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makers Mark View Post
I have really enjoyed this thread and looking at the Anderson web page. It’s neat seeing something new. Jon had mentioned about the rubber bushings and possibilities of cracking failures. The web site said the bushings were made of urethane. Not being an engineer but I can tell you when I was a young graduate (about a hundred years ago) working in the cost department of a manufacturer of mining and quarry equipment. We sold shaker screens that would size stone aggregates in many levels that would separate the stone to the proper belts. It was amazing how fast the screens would need replacing due to the “stone” blasting. We started to coat these screens with urethane. Even though there were a lot of issues with coating, it was incredible to see how resilient urethane was. My guess is better urethane than rubber compound.
MM

Hi Jay,

Yes your right, if they are using the right urethane it can take a beating. I have never used it like Anderson is doing but have used it on punch press dies as a stripper plate on the punch. It takes a beating in this application. Like this: Closed End Punch Strippers - INCH

I have also used them as stroke stops / shocks absorbers for end of stroke snubbing of air cylinders.

However all those applications where sort of at room temperature. So I thought, gee can this handle towing in the winter?

Well again with the right stuff it is rated at -40 to 160 F. I do not think I will be towing a lot below zero.... Urethane Limitations

Yes, this has been a fun and interesting post. Glad Richard brought it up. The learning about hitch products never stops. Especially in these cold winter times, thinking through this helps the winter blues.

John
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:38 AM   #30
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I would like to thank you all for your opinions on this hitch. We just bought a jayco travel trailer jay feather 28u. The dry weight of this trailer is 5300 pounds roughly, with a tongue weight of 740 pounds. I traded my old WDH for a heavier used one that had 800 pound spring bars. I didn't want to put out another pile of money right away for a new hitch. I thought the bars were not rated high enough but the guy in the store convinced me a heavier bar would not give me enough "spring". Knowing it was only a temporary situation I went for it knowing I needed a heavier rated spring bar . We recently bought a 2007 silverado 4x4 crew cab, with the 6 L motor. The only option it doesn't have is heated seats. It had 25k miles on it. Short bed with matching metallic blue canopy. 20 inch wheels with new michelins. Just love this truck . It came with the trailering springs and 7 pin connection. I bought the P3 brake controller for it. The truck is rated to tow 10500 pounds. It also has the upgraded tranny and tranny cooler.
I will buy the Reese dc anti sway WDH. I will get the 1200 pound bars. I think the 1000 lb ones might be ok but that may cutting it too close. I will probably buy the hitch in Washington state but not sure where yet. Btw did you notice that Andersen was selling their hitch for 200 dollars more if you lived in Canada. They sell the Andersen hitch online for 419.00 at hitches dot com or something similar I noticed yesterday.

One last question . I have never seen a Sunline Trailer before. I think I read they went out of business . It sound like they have made good trailers and have loyal customers . What drew you to this trailer if you don't mind me asking.
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:34 AM   #31
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John,

When you get through playing with one give us a report. I still think it is Mickey Mouse and unworthy of worry free camping.

Richard,

Glad you found a TT you like and hope you have many miles of good camping experiences.

I bought this T2363 because I liked the front living room floor plan. It will sit four in comfort, sleep four in comfort, has a large enough kitchen and bath and the double bed. The front living room lets us become part of the campground from inside, has good ventilation with lots of windows on all sides and the rear bedroom is private enough if camping with four adults. I don't like the lack of outside storage but it has us only carrying what we need, and no more. Inside has enough storage for long stays.

Glad you dropped in.

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Old 01-15-2012, 12:55 AM   #32
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Richard, for me, we've had Sunlines since I first started camping. It was our first trailer. So I bought old Sunlines to fix up before I could even drive. After working through a bunch of used ones, I finally bought one of the last remaining new '07s available. I have no plans to get rid of it. I'm able to store it inside and don't use it much, so it should last me a very long time.

I'm in a position where I got to know Jaycos very well, especially the Jay Flight line. I'd say Sunlines are built probably most similarly to the Jay Flight design wise, but the quality is better with a Sunline. Jayco already has pretty good quality, but Sunline paid more attention to detail and used better components. The Jay Flight line produces somewhere around 20 something units a day IIRC, and I think Sunline was lucky if they got half that out in a day. In the last few years, maybe 2000-2006, they only made between 900 and 1500 units in a production year, total. The Jay Flight line could do close to that many of just one floorplan in a model year.

Sunline, due to their size, was a mostly eastern US company. The majority of the dealers, except like 4-5, were all east of the Mississippi, so naturally not many are seen out west. There were some dealers in Canadian provinces too, but again, mostly in Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick.

Depending on where you are in BC, the closest dealer to you is RV Town NW in Everett, WA, or Outback Country RV in Sherwood Park, AB. RV Town just sold the Que and Transport, which were less common models and it probably means they were a relatively new dealer in 2006 as the Que was a new model for the 2007 model year and Sunline gained a few western US dealers just to carry that model.
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2007 T-286SR Cherry/Granola, #6236, original owner, current mileage: 9473.8 (as of 6/18/21)
1997 T-2653 Blue Denim, #5471
1979 12 1/2' MC, Beige & Avocado, #4639
Past Sunlines: '97 T-2653 #5089, '94 T-2251, '86 T-1550, '94 T-2363, '98 T-270SR
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