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Old 11-01-2017, 05:01 AM   #1
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Need a new truck

Well it's time to be looking for another tow vehicle. Our last trip up from North Carolina along I-81 to camp at Grayson Highlands SP proved that we are trying to haul more weight than this 2002 Silverado 1500 with 198k miles should be asked to do.

I checked the weights of the truck in the manual and online and found this:
Curb weight-4910 lbs. (extended cab, 5.3 liter, Z-71 pckg. 4WD, 3.73 rear axle, 6'6" bed 4 spd. auto trans.)
GVWR-6400
GCWR-13,000
GAWR Front-3925
GAWR rear-3750
Max trailer weight-7800

I took the truck and camper to have it weighed on a triple scale after returning from a camping trip last weekend and with empty tanks, a third full refrigerator, about 1/4 tank of gas in truck (26 gal. capacity), kayaks on the truck roof (has a fiberglass cap), bed slider, one bike, a few pieces of fire wood, a few gallons of drinking water, some tools and misc. other stuff, I got:
Truck front-3180
Truck front-3900
Truck (unhitched)-6380

T-2499 (unhitched)-5860
Tongue weight (unhitched)-980

Truck (hitched to camper)-7080
Camper (hitched to truck)-5060
Truck and camper (hitched)-12140

It seems to me that the camper is not so much the problem as it's within the weight allowance for this truck to tow, but I have the truck so loaded that adding the tongue weight to it pushes it over the GVWR. I haven't weighed the bed slider yet, but that is one culprit. I can remove it when towing the camper. The hitch is Reese WD w/1200# bars.

But my question is, we would like sometime in the next two years to head out west (big hills) and I see that newer 1500's have better towing capacity than this 2002 version. Should I bother looking at them or just go to a 2500? Another option is that it seems that 6.2 liter engines are also available in later years on the 1500. Is that a solution?
JohnB, this one's right up your alley, any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:56 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by vcrt View Post
...
But my question is, we would like sometime in the next two years to head out west (big hills) and I see that newer 1500's have better towing capacity than this 2002 version. Should I bother looking at them or just go to a 2500? Another option is that it seems that 6.2 liter engines are also available in later years on the 1500. Is that a solution?
...,
Rich
Hi Rich,

Simple answer, get the largest truck you can afford.

You're right, your truck is definitely over your GVWR with your Sunline hitched up. I didn't see a rear axle weight when hitched, but I would guess that you're also over the truck's GAWR rear.

T-2499 have always been known for heavy tongue weights. So it's not surprising.

My suggestion is to look for a 3/4 ton truck and get the largest engine you can afford.

Have you ever heard anyone say "I wish I had a smaller tow vehicle"

When you travel out west, you'll be happy you did.

When traveling out west, it's not just the towing capability, it's also the breaking capability. A 3/4 ton will also give you better braking along with more payload and towing. In our trip out west, I had to replace the brakes and rotors midway through the trip.

One tip I got before we went out west was don't go down any faster then you were able to go up.

Tweety just returned from a trip out west, I'm sure Pam & Steve and share their experiences and suggestions also.

A trip out west is a great experience and having a good tow vehicle will make it all that more enjoyable.

Hope this helps and good luck.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:58 AM   #3
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[QUOTE=PTHutch;140593]Hi Rich,

I didn't see a rear axle weight when hitched, but I would guess that you're also over the truck's GAWR rear.

I mis-labelled that, it's 3900 lbs. in the rear, so yes, that puts the rear over the GAWR by 150 lbs.


Have you ever heard anyone say "I wish I had a smaller tow vehicle"

I know what you mean as far as towing, but since I use my truck as my daily driver, at some point when gas prices go back up through the roof, I'd like to be driving something that's not too bad every time I fill up.
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:27 AM   #4
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... but since I use my truck as my daily driver, at some point when gas prices go back up through the roof, I'd like to be driving something that's not too bad every time I fill up.
...[/I]
I can see how that will definitely play in the decision of what type of tow vehicle to buy.

Since JohnB had a T-2499 I'm sure he will be able to provide you with some real world experience and suggestion.

Good luck.
Tom
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Old 11-01-2017, 11:07 AM   #5
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Thanks Tom, always good to hear from you.
Rich
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:39 PM   #6
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My experience is very similar to yours. We've owned and towed a 2499 with '01 Silverado 1500 (about 100 mi.), '07 classic Sierra 1500HD (nominally a 3/4 ton with 6.0 L and 3.73, and now a '15 Silverado 1500 with NHT option. GM (NHT) and Ford both have a max towing option on 1/2 ton that makes the late models far superior to earlier 1500 and even 2500. Superiority over older 2500 comes from 6 and 8 sp transmissions and direct injection for more hp. RAM has enough hp, but no max tow and a weak rear suspension for hauling 1000 lb. TW. My brother has a '16 RAM with less than 1300 lb. payload. My NHT has almost 2200 lb. Nothing wrong with RAM otherwise, just don't get a 1500 for a 2499.

We tow west into the mountains every year and a couple times right to the coast; been through Eisenhower Tunnel on I70 a couple times all with a gas truck. A 1500 with max tow--that's the only way to get 3.73 axle--is a more than acceptable tow vehicle in CO altitudes for a 6-7000 lb. trailer. If I lived there, or towed a larger trailer, I'd be thinking diesel rather than gas 2500.

The NHT package comes with a bigger axle, 3.73, more suspension, more payload, more cooling and towing mirrors. We have the LT extended cab, 2wd, 355 hp 5.3 L and 6 sp. You can also get 6.2 L and 8 sp, or, on the newer ones you can also get 5.3 L with 8 sp if you opt for the LTZ. The max tow package is not typically on a dealer lot and we ordered ours. Don't confuse the NHT or Ford's max tow with the garden variety tow package that almost all 1500s on a dealer lot have. This is a $2000+ option with the towing mirrors being the only visual cue that it's a more capable 1500.

We tow in 5th at about 2000 rpm and 60 mph with an occasional downshift to 4th for significant grades across the top of L. Superior and in the mountains. Significant mountains drop it down to 3rd. Trans temp is always 186 F towing or solo with brief jumps to 194 F if in 3rd on a long climb. My old 07 frequently saw high 220s in the mountains.

We now tow an Arctic Fox that is about 1' shorter and 6" wider than the 2499. It's also a heavy well built trailer about 1000 lb. more than the 2499 with 1000 lb. tongue as well. If I had to buy a new truck today, I'd get exactly the same one I have now.

How do you like these numbers for a well balanced rig?
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:20 AM   #7
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Thanks Henry for the info. Good to hear from someone who has towed a 2499 with different models of Silverado.
Rich
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:25 PM   #8
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Hi Rich,

I'll echo some more on the making sure the truck suspension is right for your T2499.

I started out towing our T2499 with a K1500 Chevy Tahoe. The 5.3 with the 3.73 rear axle. In our case pulling was not the problem as was the loaded TW. The SUV is in worse a situation then your PU truck setup was.

After replacing then 2002 Tahoe with a 2003 K2500 Suburban with the 6.0 and the 4.10 rear axle, it was night and day difference. While the 2500HD PU truck can still handle more cargo weight then a 2500 Suburban, the pull ratings were the same. They where rated at 16,000# GCWR.

The first day I hitched the 2500 Burb to the T2499 and just drove out the drive way, there was a global shift in truck stability. Night and day difference. While the 2500Burb was limited to a 8,600# GVWR and the truck weighed a lot more with the 4 x 4, the Quarsteer rear axle steering and the fact it was and SUV with the heavy glass and roof over the top of the back end, it could handle a 1,200# loaded TW camper and still have room for stuff in the truck.

Point: 2500 suspension makes a big difference in truck stability and it comes with a lot of other HD upgrades that Hutch pointed out.

You talked about kayaks, and long trips out west, it is common on these longer trips you just plain take "more stuff". If a truck cap is in the short or long term plan, then that helps how to carry the stuff but that also hurts on the payload in the truck. So again 3/4 ton suspension helps bail you out.

To your daily driver, yes this can be where the rub comes sometimes. There is no great way to get totally around having great fuel mileage daily driver and a good tow vehicle for the camper to fit your weight hauling needs.

When we had the Suburban, it was not practical to non stop use it as daily driver for an 1.5 hour daily drive when we had a smaller Trailblazer sitting at home in the garage. And then the F350 came and it was slightly worse on fuel then the Suburban. My wife and I switched daily driver vehicles. I took the Trailblazer to work and she took the Suburban or the F350 to do her errands. In the end, we would save close to $1,000 in gas a year by just doing this switch on the daily driver routine.

Since the T310SR is not going away anytime soon, the F350 is here to stay for a good while yet. We ended up becoming a 3 car family for a 2 driver house hold. I bought a new 2011 Ford Fusion which at the time was about 2.5 to 3 times reduced the amount of gas I would use. I still have it. The Trailblazer went back to my wife.

In your case, while your older truck is old, if you stop towing with it, will it hold together to get a few more years as your daily driver? Odds are high you are not going to get a lot for it on a trade in. OR find a good used vehicle which fits your needs daily driver. Then get the right truck to do your hauling and towing. This does create a "where to store the truck" problem if you do not have space. So this then says, well OK maybe using the larger truck for a daily driver even if it burns a little more fuel, then annually that may be better then a 3rd vehicle with insurance and all. I know, lots to think through. Just throwing this out there to spark thoughts for you to take it to the next level that fits for you.

On what ever truck you get, make sure the truck payload is enough and has some extra. Like Henry said, if you go to the 1/2 ton area, make sure you get that special payload upgrade as the regular 1/2 ton does not shift the needle on the weights you are up against even if they have lots of pulling power.

On the engine, I really do not look at the infamous "tow rating". I look at GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) of the truck. You need to add the weights of all your "stuff" you add to the truck and then the truck empty weight with all the options it has, add 7,000# for the T2499 and then, add a reserve factor to it we will call reserve capacity and this create GCW. The GVW needs to be equal or under the GCWR.

What the tow ratings do not include is the amount of extra wind resistance above the 60 sq feet of surface area the TT exceeds. The 60 sq feet is what Ford and GM used to create the ratings in the truck of the day. I have not seen that recently to know if they changed it higher on the 2017's, so it might have changed but I doubt it.

The tow rating only deals with raw weight. Towing 7,000# of open flat bed trailer will pull a lot easier then 7,000# of a TT like the T2499. The wind resistance of these "bricks" we tow just plain eats up pull ratings that do not show up in the tow ratings.

I found on my T2499 and the 2500 Suburban that if I accounted for 2,500# extra pulling reserve capacity in the truck's GCW and I stayed under the GCWR of the truck drive train, I could go where ever I wanted without issues pulling. This is about 15.5 to 16% extra pulling capacity as rated against GCWR. More is always better.

And when the T310SR came we started out with the 2500 Suburban and I ate up all that 2,500# reserve capacity with camper weight. I was at 15,750# GCW up against a 16,000# GCWR with the 6.0 and 4.10 rear axle. I was at capacity of the truck, 0% reserve. Yes it pulled it. On the flat lands of central Ohio we will put it as, OK. But no way was I going to take it to southern Ohio or the back mountains of PA.

And then there is the elevation loss of engine performance for every 1,000 feet above sea level for engines without a turbo or super charger. The reserve capacity helps overcome that too. When you go west, this is a real thing to not loose track of. Here on the east coast it is these non stop up and down short mountains that get our trucks with tranny heating and pulling issues. Out west we have it worse, long steep pulls and elevation engine loss.

Point: Remember to add a reserve factor to your towing calculations.

These are just some high points to think about. When you hone in on a certain truck, let us know some numbers and we can help you sort out where it stacks up.

Hope this helps

John

PS As FYI, my F350 is rated at 21,000# GCWR up against a GCW of 17,800# of truck, stuff and camper. That is 15.2% reserve capacity against GCWR and I have no pulling issues. But she does have a drink'in problem...
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:17 PM   #9
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Need a truck

Or, you could just look for a low milage Nissan Titan. I love mine. Even with just over 100,000 miles on it, it runs great.
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:48 PM   #10
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Hi Rich, want to add a bit more background from my experience towing 6000 mi/yr for more than 10 yr. I used the '01 Silverado 1500 only to tow the 2499 home and to a local cpg for a shakedown. It was over on GVWR and RGAWR and 20 lb. under GCWR. Fortunately I had budgeted for a new truck as the 1500 clearly was not up to a cross country trip. The '07 1500HD was way under all ratings including 2000 lb. under GCWR, but it was woefully lacking in performance, especially in the mountains, and the old 6.0L/4sp was not a happy combination for towing the 2499, but at least it wasn't overloaded. The '15 Silverado 1500 with NHT option is hands down the best truck of the 3. I am comfortably under all ratings including 4700 lb. under GCWR.

...BUT... I don't carry nearly the weight you do--no topper, bikes, kayaks, firewood, kids, pets etc. So even though our GCWR is very close, your truck weighs hundreds of pounds more than mine and even though a new 1500 is more capable, unless you shed some weight, even with NHT, it will be uncomfortably close to GVWR although well under 16,700 lb. GCWR or 17,700 lb. with 6.2 L option. So, it comes down to your comfort level, on what you can compromise and how important a daily driver is compared to a truck that can carry anything and everything you can load into it.

To dispel part of the 2500 myth... yes it is a more capable truck, with large payload, better suspension and a much bigger full floating rear axle. However, the few HD truck tests available show the brakes are at best only equal to a 1500 and often worse. On GM, which I am most familiar with, the new 5.3L and new 6.0L are virtually identical in hp, torque and rpm and the 2500 engine has to haul a much heavier truck. If anyone is unhappy with the performance of a 1500 in the mountains they will be equally disappointed by the gas 2500. That means you should really be looking at a diesel 2500, except they have a notoriously low payload, often less than my 1500. So, you should really be looking at a diesel 3500, which will allow you to tow any size future trailer you may desire... and... that's how people on RV forums get talked into buying ever bigger trucks.

I don't follow Ford very closely so can't vouch for the longevity of the Ecoboost 3.5L, but this is a truck that appears to meet your needs. If you don't want to shed any weight, and if you choose the right model, you can even combine the max tow package with max payload package and get an F150 that is literally half way between a 1500 and 2500 and the turbo will give excellent mountain performance, while sucking a lot of gas. Now, some will say it will cost just as much as the heavier 2500 so why not get that... well... the Ecoboost will probably blow the doors off the gas 2500 in the mountains.

Any Ecoboost fans or naysayers out there? Now's your chance to chime in. Let's help Rich spend his money.
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Old 11-03-2017, 04:20 AM   #11
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Iím a fan of the 3.5 Ecoboost. Have one in my 2015 Ford Transit van and itís a beast. Diesel like torque numbers, about 400 lb/ft @ 2200 rpm and 300 hp. I can get 20 mpg on the highway not towing.

I understand the F series Ecoboost is tuned differently for even more power and theyíve come out with a second generation engine with a 10 speed transmission.

Not sure about the longevity. I have 34,000 trouble free miles on mine.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:24 AM   #12
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I think I'm going back to something like our 92 T-2470. Just kidding, but it's easy to see the escalation process here. In 2004, I got rid of my 92 Astro van which still ran just fine with about 220k miles on it. I really liked the van, but since we had just bought this 2470, we realized we needed something bigger to tow it, so I bought the 2002 Silverado 1500. That camper weighed 3825 dry with a TW of 560 lbs. Now, through experience, I realize this 1500 is really not sufficient to tow a 2499 at 4785 dry weight and 755 TW after adding in the stuff we like to take with us. I also have a bed slider I installed right after I bought the truck. That weighs about 120#. It is removable and on our next trip out (probably the last one this year) it'll stay home.

So, from just my limited experience with two trailers, in 15 years, by the same manufacturer, a trailer only about a foot longer gained about 960 lbs. which is a 25% jump in weight (and I still don't quite get where the extra almost 200# of TW comes from)

I guess the truck manufacturers responded to this obesity trend (campers and people!) by increasing the towing capacity and it's good to see that fuel economy increased somewhat as well. I do use my truck less during the week than I used to, so fuel costs aren't as critical as they were years ago.

Anyway, that's my observations, and I really appreciate all of you taking the time to give me an education geared specifically to my needs. That's one of the things that makes this such a great site. Another is our manners, something not found on too many online forums these days.

One question, Henry, when trying to find a Silverado with NHT, are the mirrors a reliable tip-off that the truck has this package?

I think I'll stay with Chevy to keep the search a little less confusing, it seems like I can stay in the $30k plus or minus range to keep the mileage low and still have years of reliability in a truck that will handle the loads I'm carrying and where I want to take it.

Thanks again for all the responses, I feel that I have a much better idea of vehicle, camper and camping gear weights now. Any other comments are appreciated as well.
Rich
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:16 AM   #13
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I’m a fan of the 3.5 Ecoboost. Have one in my 2015 Ford Transit van and it’s a beast. Diesel like torque numbers, about 400 lb/ft @ 2200 rpm and 300 hp. I can get 20 mpg on the highway not towing.

I understand the F series Ecoboost is tuned differently for even more power and they’ve come out with a second generation engine with a 10 speed transmission.

Not sure about the longevity. I have 34,000 trouble free miles on mine.
A former coworker had a 2011 F-150 CC LB with the 3.5 EcoBoost, with about 130,000 miles. He bought the truck used at like two years old, but drove a lot for his previous job. He liked the engine, REALLY liked the truck, but the engine did give him a lot of reliability issues that he found out were unique to I think the first two model year 3.5 Ecoboosts (2011 and 2012). He said if he did it again, he would definitely have gone with a newer one, out of that date range, or an older one with a Triton. He had various turbo issues, but the big thing was fowling spark plugs and coils. He replaced both multiple times and has even changed plugs in parking lots, because the performance suddenly suffered that much.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:16 AM   #14
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He had various turbo issues, but the big thing was fowling spark plugs and coils.

I know dozens of people with F series trucks that had coil problems. I had problems with my 2003 E series van. Itís not just an Ecoboost problem but definitely a Ford problem.
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