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Old 11-03-2017, 09:13 PM   #21
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I have little to offer other than I have a 2012 F150 Ecoboost. Sometimes I wish I had gotten the max tow package for future proofing, but she has never left me down. I drove her off the lot and haven't regretted it. The truck handles the 2463 just fine. I have talked the wife into the fact that when we upgrade campers (once the kidos are bigger) we will need a bigger truck. I will be looking at the 3/4 or 1 ton flavor of things.
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:03 AM   #22
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When we went from the Tweety 2753 to the Fox is when we traded from the 2500 diesel to the 1 ton. We were alright with the 3/4 ton as far as tongue weight, but there wasn't any room to spare. Our 1 ton diesel is amazing. Yes, it's big, but we could have gotten the short bed which would have shortened it up. The fuel mileage is GREAT. 21-22 on the highway not towing. It was reliably 13.33 towing the 2753, and has been as high as 18 towing the Lance. Going up those endless mountains in the west was no issue. We could fly if we wanted to. Going down we have the Alison transmission and Jake brake doing the job holding us back. Hardly used the regular brakes.
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post
Two observations on the link for weights of different Sunlines. I noticed that the 2499 TW dropped from 755 to 680 in 2005, then went back up the next two years. Also, the TW to dry weight percentage was 15.8 for 04, 05 and 07, but was 14.2 for 05 since the dry weight remained unchanged for all those years. I wonder what was the reason the TW dropped in 05?

I've heard that a 10-15% TW is optimal, but with a 15.8% being above that range to begin with, it seems to me that using the front compartment for any kind of storage can become a problem real fast!
Rich

Hi Rich,

To your first comments, this one from the other post,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post
I mention the above for any relevance it may have to the weight discussion, but when I noted that I still wasn't too clear on the reason for the increase in tongue weight over our old one, I was thinking dry weights, without cargo. I suppose the heavier frame and other interior materials add up like everything else. Also, like you said, there were more heavy features behind the axles in the 2470 than the 2499. Refrigerator, bunks, back wardrobe, bathroom etc. were all to the rear of the axles. The seesaw tips to where the biggest kid sits right?
The T2499 is unique as compared to many other Sunlines and in this case very much different then your 92 T-2470 as far as empty "dry" tongue weights and how the camper balances out when gear is loaded.

Your 92 T-2470 had a empty brochure weight of 3,825# with a 560 # dry tongue. The TW is 14.6% dry

Your 07 T-2499 had a empty brochure weight of 4,785# with a 755 # dry tongue. The TW is 15.8% dry

The T-2499 is 1.2% heavier dry then the T-2470. That percentage is relativly small, but yes the T2499 floor plan and the way they located the axles allows the TW to rise quickly. Where you can put gear allows the TW to rise without much behind the axles to lower it back down.

The T-2470 floor plan balances out the added cargo fore and aft of the axles better to help limit the increase in TW better.

And yes, the teeter totter will tip to the bigger kid, in this case the T2499 will tip down on the tongue a lot faster as there is no room for kids to hang out behind the axles to help lower the added up front cargo.

The T2499 GVW weighs empty 960 # more then the T-2470 to start with so yes the dry TW of the heavier camper is higher and then the unique floor plan of the T2499 drives up the loaded TW very high.

Your comment about, 15.8% dry starting out can become a problem real fast with loading the front cargo hole is dead on right.

Your last scaled weight shows you are just under 1,000#. If and when long distance trips come, you may take more gear with you. And if you put it in the camper, odds are high it will end up somewhere forward of the axles. There is a lot of storage under the bed, the top bed room cabinets, the hanging side bedroom cabinets and then the monster front cargo hole.

If I understand your weight numbers on the 1st post correctly, you are loaded to 5,860# today. Since the T2499 has a 7,000# GVWR you can still add 1,140# more cargo to the camper. The problem will be, how to add a good chuck of that and not have the tongue weight go real high. This is where the 1,200# loaded TW's of the T2499 comes from. Folks add more gear and the only place they can out it, is up front.

When we had our 2004 T-2499, I had an 1,150 to 1,200# loaded TW. This was on a loaded camper of 6,200#. I still had 800# more cargo capacity if I wanted to add more but the TW would even go higher. Using the 1,150# TW that was 18.5% loaded TW. Thus why my 1,500 Tahoe was in trouble trying to hold it up. Since we loved the T2499 that much, we traded the Tahoe for the 2500 Suburban.

We really like the rear living floor plans, our T-310SR which is a rear living floor plan also acts just like the T2499. It loads towards the front of the camper. In this case, the F350 came to deal with the high TW and to be able to pull the 10,000# camper. When I load the bikes on the tongue, we have a 1,600# loaded TW. 16% TW.

Now you are starting to understand and see why we are saying, make sure the new truck can cover your current needs and future ones when you potentially will take more camping gear on longer trips.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:05 AM   #24
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John,
Thanks for the clarity on loading. We like that nice big rear window too and I find myself being very conscious of what's behind us when we choose a site. I want to see nature out that window, not another camper or a bath house.

But you're right, it seems that in order to set up the rear living area the way Sunline did, they arranged most of the storage space to be where it would add to the already high TW. I'm conscious of this and try to keep my storage weight as low as I can up front. Our zero gravity chairs are stored in the right rear corner just behind the entry door. I made a wooden platform to supplement the folding step. That, along with solid wood leveling ramps I made is stored behind the spare tire on the rear bumper.

I like the idea of a large platform to step out onto (instead of the short folding step) and I just started thinking of mounting a slide out platform in place of the folding step which could have a lift up lid where heavier items can be stored. That would help offset the weight on the tongue. It would now have more road clearance since I just did the axle flip yesterday.

Our under bed storage has nothing more than a light backpack and some folded towels, and I'm planning on leaving our carry-on clothes bags under the folding table at the rear when travelling. We can then move them to the OH storage in the bedroom once we set up at our site.
Thanks,
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Old 11-05-2017, 08:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

I like the idea of a large platform to step out onto (instead of the short folding step) and I just started thinking of mounting a slide out platform in place of the folding step which could have a lift up lid where heavier items can be stored. That would help offset the weight on the tongue. It would now have more road clearance since I just did the axle flip yesterday.
Hi Rich,

We all camp different and that's A OK! We too like the back view out the camper to be a nature scene. When booking site reservations I try and do a sky view look of the CG layout to see how the sites are placed so that I do not intentionally pick a site where we are staring at another camper or them us out the back window.

And on the step, I made a movable larger step and it worked out well on the T2499. However mine mounted on a frame on the tongue, which added more weight too... See here http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f6...eps-15272.html

I really liked that larger step, much easier to get in and out with and room to take shoes off and on before going in/out of the camper. I let it go with the camper sale as the T310SR uses 3 steps and the setup is different. In hind site if I kept it I could of used with with the T1950 after I get it back together. Oh well, maybe another mod project some day.

John
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:45 PM   #26
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John, the scale ticket in my post #6 is the current one for 2015 Silverado and 2014 Arctic Fox. I'll email you the other scale tickets so as not to clutter Rich's thread with my historical info. You can reference those numbers in other posts you wish to make.

Rich, since you're not likely to find the NHT option on the lot, you may be interested in the actual sticker numbers:

2015 Silverado 1500LT, 2wd, extended cab, 5.3L/6sp with NHT max tow option:

FGAWR 3950 lb.

RGAWR 4300 lb.

GVWR 7400 lb.

GCWR 16,700 lb.; 17,700 lb. with 6.2L/8sp

brochure payload 2260 lb.

sticker payload 2152 lb.

I've towed at GCWR with the '01 1500, 2000 lb. under with the 1500HD, and now 4700 lb. under with the '15 1500. We give the truck a really good workout towing along the north shore of L. Superior, into western headwinds and into the Rockies. The only really acceptable performance has been from the '15, 1500. It is my humble opinion that anyone expecting acceptable performance under these conditions with a gas truck, should stay 4-5000 lb. under its GCWR. A diesel, on the other hand, can tow all day long at its GCWR without breaking a sweat.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:24 PM   #27
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What's the curb weight?
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:53 AM   #28
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According to GM: 7400–2152=5248.

Much more realistic actual weight with two people, full tank, Bed Rug, Tonneau, and various items in console, under seat storage etc. 5742 lb.

Henry
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:24 AM   #29
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It looks like we have similar numbers, so your TV pulling my camper with all my stuff would give that same 4-5000# margin you're talking about.
That helps.
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:13 PM   #30
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So, I've test driven 4 trucks, all 2018 crew cabs:
Silverado 1500 5.3 w/o NHT, only 3.42 axle, decided against that one.
Silverado 2500HD 6.0 w/4.10 axle
Silverado 2500HD diesel, I decided against this also since I think it's more truck than I need.
Ford F-150 3.5 Ecoboost and 10 speed trans. Must say, this one has get up and go! Of course, it was empty except for me and the hefty salesman, but it compared well to the Silverados.
One dealer called me today with a 2018 1500 5.3 w/3.73 axle and NHT option, he said he could sell for slightly over 40k. Sounds pretty good, I'm going tomorrow to see if it pays to use my 200k mile 02 1500 as a trade.
Rich
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Old 12-20-2017, 05:47 PM   #31
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Check the door stickers for weight capacity. The GM with NHT option should have more payload than the Ford, but if not much different, the Ecoboost will out tow the Gm all day long. The Ecoboost is as close to a diesel as you will get with a gas engine. Our friends had a Tahoe with the 5.3 and switched to a Ford with the Ecoboost. Said it felt like going from a 4cyl to a V8
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:37 PM   #32
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Yeah, I’ve got the 3.5 Ecoboost in my 2015 Ford Transit. It’s an impressive engine for sure.
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Old 12-21-2017, 09:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Rich
Check the door stickers for weight capacity. The GM with NHT option should have more payload than the Ford, but if not much different, the Ecoboost will out tow the Gm all day long
While the Ecoboost has lots of power, you still need the max tow package to get the payload for what you're hauling in addition to the 2499's 1000lb. tongue. I've not seen a payload sticker for F150 with max tow, but believe it should also be in the 2000 lb. neighborhood of the GM NHT. Otherwise stay away from the F150 unless you also get the max payload package. No point getting a new truck with lots of performance that will still be overloaded every time you tow.Be prepared to order to get what you want, although dealers can trade within a fairly large territory.
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:01 PM   #34
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For all around savings, I say go with a diesel. Preferably a Cummins , and a 6 speed manual. Add the exhaust brake if you do mountain driving.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
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While the Ecoboost has lots of power, you still need the max tow package to get the payload for what you're hauling in addition to the 2499's 1000lb. tongue. I've not seen a payload sticker for F150 with max tow, but believe it should also be in the 2000 lb. neighborhood of the GM NHT. Otherwise stay away from the F150 unless you also get the max payload package. No point getting a new truck with lots of performance that will still be overloaded every time you tow.Be prepared to order to get what you want, although dealers can trade within a fairly large territory.
Well, yesterday I put a token deposit on the 2018 version of your truck Henry.
I decided to stay away from the Ford Ecoboost after reading of the problems that plagued that engine in years past. True, I'm sure bugs have been worked out, but I tend to keep my vehicles for a long time and rack up a fair amount of miles on them (200k on my 02) so, I thought, for longevity sake, I'd go with the LS engine.
Thanks,
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:47 AM   #36
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Way back in the 70's BMW built a 4 cylinder F1 engine it was 1.5 liters making 1,400 HP! Very nice if you added it to a light race car but for towing a large load nothing beats displacement.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:15 AM   #37
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But the 3.5 w/Ecoboost does have torque ratings of
470 ft lbs @ 3500 rpm
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Old 12-26-2017, 11:29 AM   #38
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Yes it does at max boost, in order to get max boost max throttle is required. This is why they only get about 10 MPG towing a load. Ford is on the right track with the ideal and in a 150 it is the right place for it they are weighted towards suburban drivers and get fairly good mileage for a pickup.
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Old 12-26-2017, 11:43 AM   #39
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Quote:
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But the 3.5 w/Ecoboost does have torque ratings of
470 ft lbs @ 3500 rpm
Rich


I think that’s 2500 rpm, not 3500 rpm.
Stump pulling numbers.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:22 PM   #40
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I cut and pasted those numbers from the 2018 brochure. And yes, most of the GM gas engines are more like 4500 rpm
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