JohnB or anyone--New member with towing questions - Page 2

rich2500 · 05-07-2009, 06:45 PM

this appears to be a comprable friction bar
http://www.etrailer.com/p-83660.htm

Terhune · 05-07-2009, 07:31 PM

John...Rich.....Steve....Sunline Fan

I have put all websites in my Favorites to have a reference so thanks a bunch for all the information. John thanks for posting the pictures and I hope they can help with the situation. I am checking the owner's manual from the Jeep Commander in the morning for info on the Jeep hitch . The camper photos and info gathering and all my phone calls plus doing the work around my little homestead have taken its toll on the old man so I am pretty much calling it a night....after I get the Jeep hitch weight located I should have John's info covered...if not I'll get some more. Thanks again to all of you for your help and I am hopeful my situation is getting closer to the final lap around the track.

All of you have proven one thing....there are alot of good "folks" on this forum. JIM and KATHY

Steve Collins · 05-08-2009, 06:03 AM

Jim,

I don't think you will find the receiver's ratings in the manual for the Commander. They'll just call it a Class IV receiver and leave it at that. The spec sheet I read for the Commander shows that Class II and Class IV are the only receivers they offer.

The only way to be sure is to look on the main tube of the receiver on the rearward facing surface. There will be good-sized sticker either to the left or right of the loops for the safety chains. It should list max. gross trailer and tongue weights for both Weight Carrying and Weight Distributing.

I realize that the bumper hides the main tube pretty well, but there should be enough distance between the bumper and the receiver to see the label.

Surprisingly, the receiver on my 3500 dually is only rated at 10,000/1,000 WD. I expect you'll find the same ratings on your Commander's receiver.

Terhune · 05-08-2009, 07:57 AM

Steve and John
I just checked for the hitch info you wanted and there is absolutely nothing stamped (checked with flashlight) or a sticker on the hitch anywhere. The owner's manual says max tongue weight is 750 lbs. for the Jeep Commander with the 5.7L Hemi engine. The Commander is the largest SUV made by Chrysler and it has the largest gas engine so I would assume it has the largest factory installed tow package but I can not find info anywhere. I hope the 750 lb. figure helps....
Other info in manual chart...GCWR gross combined weight rating....12620 lbs. GTW gross trailer weight....7200 lbs. GVWR gross vehicle weight rating ......6400 lbs.

Steve Collins · 05-08-2009, 10:31 AM

Jim & JohnB,

I am surprised that there isn't a sticker on the receiver. I believe they are required to be there on new vehicles.

I did some research on available receivers for the Commander. Valley offers two models - one rated for 7,500/750 WD and one rate 8,000/800 WD. Reese, Hidden Hitch, and Draw-Tite are now all owned by the same holding company, and using their websites, it looks like their search engines are all the same, and the parts are all very similar. Anyway, all three only offer a Class IV receiver that is rated 7,500/750.

I poked about looking for a weight chart for each class of receivers. All I could find was max. weights in each class, and not mins. Maybe another member here has such a chart.

I also looked on justforjeeps.com - they offer just one receiver for Commanders, and it is rated 7,400/750. This website sells only Mopar OE equipment.

Anyway, like John, I am now very concerned about the rating of that receiver. Jim, I suggest you consider calling your Jeep dealer and asking him to provide specifics about the receiver used on your Commander. Hopefully he can confirm the 7,400/750 WD rating.

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 11:32 AM

Hi Jim and Steve

Just poping in quick during lunch. I am not surprised that you did not find a sticker. This may be a “Jeep thing” The buddy I helped about a year ago with the Grande Cherokee had the same problem. His rating was in the manual pending what options he had. Except he could not get confirmation if his was even WD rated. His, the pin box just hung down from a bumper cross member about 4 to 6 inches. After finding no solution with his local Jeep dealer he did find a Draw-tite I believe it was that bolted to the frame under the OEM pin box that was at least stamped 750# WD rated, may have been 800#. In his case he could not get the front of the Jeep to return to unhitched weight with his Hybrid TT and a 750# tongue. But that was the Grand Cherokee. In his case, the upgraded after marker reciever did fix his problem as he only had a 750# tongue weight

The Class IV as advertized by Jeep, I would not go by that as a true Class IV has a lot of good rating pending actual brand. Jeep like many other auto makers uses the 10% rule in WD ratings. They say that the receiver is rated to the capacity of the truck. Well if you are hauling a boat, yes, but a TT needing 13 to 15% tongue this does not always line up right. You run out of WD carrying ability before pull rating of the truck.

We need to find the actual ratings in weight distributing mode that Jeep puts on it. And if my fears are right, even if you actually get confirmation, that is it 750# in WD mode. This will be a challenge. 1,200# WD bars in a 750# rated receiver will be a problem in a fairly short period of time. The pin box can get bent up and stay up and tehn you loose weight distrubution. The T2499 with smooth sides my be in the 800# tongue range with no camping gear in it.

I can dig myself later unless you guys find someting better before then.

Thanks

John

Terhune · 05-08-2009, 11:32 AM

Steve.........if the max tongue weight is 750 lbs.....are you saying that is not enough and at what weight level should it be. I just called the Chrysler dealer and explained that I needed the max weight for the hitch and the parts dept. looked it up and the Chrysler book said 7200 lbs. max.

I hope this is the number that I have been looking for.

Terhune · 05-08-2009, 11:46 AM

I just read my own post and that 7200 lbs. sounds like it is off the charts and very high. I am still confused by this number but hopefully someone can find the answer. It is difficult to understand why Chrysler would produce a hitch on a factory install option that would not have the strength to pull a travel trailer 26 ft. long. (this is one of the main reasons I purchased the Commander). OK...Rant over. LOL JIM

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terhune

Steve.........if the max tongue weight is 750 lbs.....are you saying that is not enough and at what weight level should it be. I just called the Chrysler dealer and explained that I needed the max weight for the hitch and the parts dept. looked it up and the Chrysler book said 7200 lbs. max.

I hope this is the number that I have been looking for.

Jim

The 7,200# number is the pull rating. We need the weight distributing load rating number. There should be 2 numbers when you are in weight distrusting mode. Pull rating and weight distributing load rating. See this picture off of mine

There is pull (tow) rating with allowed tongue weight with “out” using a weight distributing hitch. They call this "weight carrying" mode.

And a pull (tow) rating with allowed tongue weight when using a weight distributing hitch. We need the tongue weight ratings of the Commander receiver when a weight distributing hitch is used.

For a T2499, with smooth sides, even if you go lightly loaded and be careful on loading weights, you are still looking at a 1,000# tongue weight ready to go camping. Mine was much higher then that, 1,200# actually, but last year I did weigh a camping buddies 2004 T2499 loaded but he had the alum siding and his was sitting right at 950#. So lower weighs are doable. I also weighed KathyH’s T2499 at the M& G but do not remember that number out of my head. Kitty’s T2499, I can’t remember either but it was up there too. The floor plan drives the tongue weight up there.

There are some gear loading things to keep the trailer at least in the 1,000# range we can help pass along, but this is the minimal are you need to be in from my recommendation. Ideally you have a receiver rated for 1,200# in WD mode if you can get it, which I do not think you can on the Commander.

I have to yet finish the TV/TT axle weight look with WD engaged but if the payload of the Commander is only in the 1,200# range, this too is something to work thru so you do not run out of axle and tire ratings.

I do not want to sound like there is no hope, but you will be near the limits of the Commander and maybe bump over some. I will figure this out for you and put it up later so you can better see what is going where with the weights.

Hope this helps

John

Terhune · 05-08-2009, 06:49 PM

John.........I have made a photo copy of of your last reply and I am taking it to the Chrysler Dealer tomorrow. Now I know what I am looking for (at least 99%). I am going to use the sticker on your Ford as a guide.

Will be test driving the TT with the tightened friction bar tomorrow and hopefully no wind. Keep you posted on the dry run and Dealer info.

JIM

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 07:02 PM

OK guys need a life line.

Need the load capacity and max pressure ratings on Goodyear Fortera P245/65R17 They area Service load code of 105T

This is what is called out as the tires on Jim's Commander.

I have searched the Goodyear site now for over 45 minutes and I cannot for the life of me find it. errr....

I can find RV tire load inflation tables but not a simple Auto load table.

Any one know?

Jim, worst case go you and look on the side of the tire, confirm size, load capacity and max cold air pressure.

Thanks

John

PS here is a link Good year site

rich2500 · 05-08-2009, 07:22 PM

they make atleast 3 different fortera tires HL edition,silent armor and triple tred they all have the same specs.
max load 2039lbs
max psi 44
8156 tire capacity
-5169 curb weight
--------
2987 left everything else

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2500

they make atleast 3 different fortera tires HL edition,silent armor and triple tred they all have the same specs.
max load 2039lbs
max psi 44

Where did you find that Rich???

Thanks

rich2500 · 05-08-2009, 07:35 PM

here John http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compar...&startIndex=10

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 07:41 PM

Jim

If you go out tomorrow do this.

Somewhere find a level hard surface with the truck and camper. Parking lot etc or your drive way as long as it is fairly level and blacktop or concrete. You are going to do some fender height measurements hitched and unhitched. This will give us an idea on where you WD is on the truck

This is how I do it. If you have it, some electrical tape and a level. Level can be a small one and a stick if you do not have a 4 foot one like in this picture.

With the truck unhitched and on level ground, hold up the straight edge and level right thru the center of the tires to the fenders. Put a small piece of tape on the fender at the level mark. Do all 4 tires. Now you no longer need the level or stick. That tape marker is a place you will measure to each time right thru the center of the wheel and not be on an anlge by accident.

1. Have your rear tires at max side wall pressure. Have front at least at door sticker ratings. Maybe even some more for this 1st test. Record it. But do not go above max side wall cold pressure.

2. With the truck unhitched and on level ground and it has the weight in side like you are going camping, and in your case this will only be people as you are on the end of the truck limits. Any camping gear will need to go in the camper.

3. Go to each wheel well and measure ground to fender. Make sure you write on the pad which wheel it is as left and right side can be different.

4. Put camper on, hitch up and engage (hook up the chains) the WD bars and let the jack down so truck is holding the TT weight just like you are going down the road.

5. Go around again to all 4 tires and measure the fender heights. Write them down.

This then tell us if the WD for the tongue load you have right now is in the right area on the truck. I’m was not going to go into a long adjustment write up just yet as I need to see where you where at coming home from the dealer when you had the sway. We will get to how to adjust the WD but we have to get past this receiver rating thing 1st. I did not want to over torque the receiver with those 1200# WD bars if you only have a 750# WD rated receiver.

The issues are not as big right now with an empty camper, it is when you load it. However you still may be over the rating but not like a fully loaded camper.

6. Also once hitched up with WD engaged, measure from the top of the camper TT frame to the ground. Like this. And then measure in that same spot when the TT is leveled wiht the tongue jack on level ground. You can be hitch or unhitched jsut need the TT level on level ground. Write both down.

The 2004 T2499 was built with an 18 ½ ball height as a target. It might be a litte less pending the frame welding when they made it. These numbers tell us if the camper is nose down, level of up when towing.

Good luck, take it easy and let us know how it goes. Try to remember what you are feeling in the truck if the back end feels it is going left to right and that it is making you do small or large steering corrections to keep it straight if and when it occurs. This is indications of flexing P tires under full load or a level of sway or both pending a few things.

I’m still working on your numbers, once I find them all.

Thanks

John

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2500

they make atleast 3 different fortera tires HL edition,silent armor and triple tred they all have the same specs.
max load 2039lbs
max psi 44
8156 tire capacity
-5169 curb weight
--------
2987 left everything else

Rich, I followed your link and came up with different numbers.

On a P245/65R17 105T load spec, it is 2,039# @ 51 PSI. Not the 44 you where listing.

The 16 inch were 44psi on 104S load rating

Did I mix it up?

Tire rack specs

This is pretty good, the Good year site does not have a load table but yet I do 2 clicks on a sales site and got it. Boy oh boy You would think for a tire company this would be a pretty std thing.

John

dkasten39828 · 05-08-2009, 07:54 PM

GEEZ, with the exception of the cool rims, his coach looks exactly like mine!

A load index of 105 translates to 2039 pounds maximum each tire.

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoLoadIndex.dos

I have been towing my 2499 with LT265/75R16 load range D tire with an index of 119. I've used them for 60K miles, 55K towing the lighter popup I had. The remaining 5K has been towing the 2499. The maximum load per tire is 2998 pounds or about 45 pounds under the factory tire which is a 245/75R16 E.

I have just ordered new tires... LT265/75R16 load range E with a load index of 123. I moved up to this tire because I thought the D range tire didn't feel solid enough, it felt softer than I wanted.

A load index of 105 is awfully light a tire for such a heavy tongue weight IMHO. A friend of ours tows with a 105 tire and her trailer is WAY lighter than a 2499. Her tires are wearing out fast. They are showing signs of over load. With the little experience I've had pulling our coach, I would not want to use a tire with less than a 114-119 load index.

**JohnB** · 05-08-2009, 08:16 PM

Jim

Mr. Pest for info here once again... when you have your tape measure out, measure from the center of the rear tire to the center of the tow ball when inserted into the truck.

Just at the wheel, drop to the ground and make a mark in the middle. Then go to the tow ball and go straight down to the ground and make another mark. Then try the best you can and come off the tow ball mark on the ground out to line up with the tire sort of parallel to the rear axle of the truck. Use a long stick and eyeball it. Then measure between the 2 marks.

We call this rear overhang.

65" is fairly standard on a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 ton truck, but I do not know about a Jeep commander. It might be less.

I already have the T2499 wheels to tow ball numbers and I have your wheel base. Just missing rear overhang. I can calculate how much WD is moving where and what this does to your axle loads.

This will be as close as I can get before you head to the truck scales some day.

Thanks

John

rich2500 · 05-08-2009, 08:24 PM

oem hitch specs
http://www.mopar-accessories.com/en-...ubGroupId=3055

rich2500 · 05-08-2009, 08:28 PM

Rich, I followed your link and came up with different numbers.

On a P245/65R17 105T load spec, it is 2,039# @ 51 PSI. Not the 44 you where listing.

The 16 inch were 44psi on 104S load rating

Did I mix it up?

Tire rack specs

This is pretty good, the Good year site does not have a load table but yet I do 2 clicks on a sales site and got it. Boy oh boy You would think for a tire company this would be a pretty std thing.

John
_________________
my bad John I used 105s not t